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12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm

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Ijtaba

12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« on: December 05, 2016, 04:36:09 PM »
Salaam,

Brother Farid asked my views on the article, "12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm." So I am presenting my personal views on the questions posed in the article. My views are not official Shia position.

1- A Pure Focus on Allah the Almighty

This is something personal. Every individual belonging to any faith has his connection with GOD.

2- Access to the Hadith of the Noble Prophet

We Shias believe that Imams of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s) got all information from the Prophet (s) and did not speak from themselves.

3- Acceptance of the Companions of the Noble Prophet

We do accept the Companions of the Noble Prophet (s) but we believe them to be like us i.e. Some of them reached highest level of Imaan, some of them had normal imaan like many of us Muslims nowadays and some of them got more attracted towards dunya and preferred their dunya over their deen.

4- Access to the Real Teachings of Ahlubayt

I do believe that real teachings of Ahlul Bayt (a.s) are contained in Ahlul Sunnah and Shia books.

5- Uniformity in the Teachings of Ahlulbayt

I have only read very few hadiths of al-Kafi and Bihar ul Anwar which are available online in English translation.

I guess the apparent contradictions in hadiths is due to some of these hadiths were said by Imam in Taqiyyah whereas some were said according to situation & events and some according to level of understanding of the narrator.

6- A Taqiyyah-free Ahlulbayt

The main reason for this I guess (and I may be wrong) is that Ahlul Sunnah obey and follow the rulers of Muslim Ummah such as Banu Ummayah and Banu Abbas, etc whereas we Shias obey and follow our Imams (a.s) who were not in power. So because of this only the commandments of Muslim rulers were enforced throughout the Muslim lands which all Sunnis and Shias had to follow but some of those commandments would contradict the teachings of Imams (a.s) so our Imams (a.s) and their Shias had to adopt Taqiyyah or else they would appear to be rebels in the eyes of the rulers and their people who would punish them for causing fitna and fasad in the land.

7- Access to the Context of Qur’anic Verses

I don't have knowledge in this field so cannot comment

As I said before that we shias consider some Companions to have highest level of Imaan and thus trustworthy. For e.g. Shias consider ibn Abbas (r.a) to be from Shia of Ali (a.s) and thus trustworthy and reliable.

8- Reliable Books of Tafseer

About our reliable books of tafseer having narrations of tahreef. I can't comment on them as I haven't read those books yet.

I did read four narrations on Tahreef online, one of them was saying that name of Ali (a.s) is deleted, another one said that Ayat Tatheer was misplaced, third one said that wording was changed (instead of "make us Imams of Mutaqqin" it should read "make Imams of Mutaqqin for us") and last one said there were names of 21 disbelievers but all of them were deleted except one (i.e. Abu Lahab and his name was not deleted because he was uncle of Prophet (s)) There may be more narrations.

9- Access to the Prophetic’s Biography

Sunni books on Seerah of Prophet (s) are considered reliable. Majority of difference between Shia and Sunni started after the death of Prophet (s).

10- Trust in the Hadith Compilers

Again I don't have knowledge in this field so can't say anything.

One thing that I have noticed is that Shias are more focused on matn (text) rather than rijal (narrators) whereas Sunnis are more focused on rijal (narrators) rather than matn (text). My assumption may be wrong.

11- A Karbala Narrative that Makes Sense

Even if it is proved that Shias exaggerate Karbala event there are some things which both Ahlul Sunnah and Shias agree and that is Imam Hussain (a.s) and his male family members and male companions were murdered without any valid reason. Imam Hussain (a.s) six months old son was murdered. And all of Imam Hussain (a.s) female family members were tortured by putting the blessed heads of Imam Hussain, his children, his relatives and his companions on spears and were taken to the court of yazeed. ALLAH (SWT) and HIS Prophet (s) would never like for Prophet's (s) grandchildren to be treated in this mannner from those who claimed to be from his (s) Ummah.

12- Disbelief in a Twelfth Imam that has been hidden for over a Thousand Years

We Shias believe in 12 Imams whether Apparent or Hidden. Our Twelfth Imam (a.s) would appear at the end of times before Qiyamah.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 04:42:54 PM by Ijtaba »

Farid

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2016, 06:21:29 AM »
Wa alaykum alsalam,

Brother, I suggest clicking on the links that have been included in the article for further reading about the points that you are not familiar with. Many Shias will just shrugs off what they do not understand or are not familiar with. You don't see to be that type of person.

I will respond to one point for now, since it is a huge misconception.

Quote
2- Access to the Hadith of the Noble Prophet

We Shias believe that Imams of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s) got all information from the Prophet (s) and did not speak from themselves.

This is blatantly false. 

Sometimes, Ja'afar will attribute a hadith to the Prophet - peace be upon him - . Sometimes he will attribute it to Ali. Other times he will attribute it to Zain Al-Abideen. Many times he will just attribute it to his father. In most cases, he doesn't attribute it to anyone.

Why attribute a hadith to different people when it is being said by one person? This makes absolutely no sense.

Another thing to consider is that the Prophet - peace be upon him - never made taqiyyah. With this in mind, when Ja'afar says, "Doing x is haram," then says, "Doing x is halal," he is saying two completely opposite things, and both were not said by the Prophet - peace be upon him - .

I have more thoughts to share, but we can focus on this for now.


MuslimAnswers

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2016, 11:44:58 AM »
^

I think it is very crucial to make the distinction between what may be brought up of the Ayahs giving permission to hide one's beliefs in times of extreme danger (normally brought up in the case of Ammar (RAA) or the believer at the time of Firawn) and the Prophet (SAW) and his mission to transmit the religion reliably and correctly to the people.

After all, even if the common Muslim did say something wrong, this would not change the religion, but the Prophet (SAW) [or by extension the Imams as per the Twelvers] held a lecture or a gathering were false verdicts were being given whatever the reason may be, such a thing is 'Haalik' to the religion. It is not also not a very strong argument to say that either we Sunnis lied about 'Ali or Ja'far (RAA) or that they were forced to lie to us Sunnis, since the argument made concerning the interaction of the "Infallible" with the bigger group can always be applied to the smaller group.

Finally, it would also seem to eliminate the possibility of us taking the Twelver image of the Prophet (SAW) seriously (or any other Infallible), since 'Truthfulness' is one of the core characteristics of Prophethood, and it is obvious that this is being compromised, whoever one may blame for this situation.

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2016, 07:09:58 PM »
Wa alaykum alsalam,

Brother, I suggest clicking on the links that have been included in the article for further reading about the points that you are not familiar with. Many Shias will just shrugs off what they do not understand or are not familiar with. You don't see to be that type of person.

Thanks brother Farid. I will be reading the links provided in the article for understanding more about the issues highlighted in the article.

I will respond to one point for now, since it is a huge misconception.

Quote
2- Access to the Hadith of the Noble Prophet

We Shias believe that Imams of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s) got all information from the Prophet (s) and did not speak from themselves.

This is blatantly false. 

Sometimes, Ja'afar will attribute a hadith to the Prophet - peace be upon him - . Sometimes he will attribute it to Ali. Other times he will attribute it to Zain Al-Abideen. Many times he will just attribute it to his father. In most cases, he doesn't attribute it to anyone.

Why attribute a hadith to different people when it is being said by one person? This makes absolutely no sense.

Another thing to consider is that the Prophet - peace be upon him - never made taqiyyah. With this in mind, when Ja'afar says, "Doing x is haram," then says, "Doing x is halal," he is saying two completely opposite things, and both were not said by the Prophet - peace be upon him - .

I have more thoughts to share, but we can focus on this for now.

We can agree to disagree. What you have said is correct. However there is difference of views between Ahlul Sunnah and Shias regarding 12 Imams of Shias. Sunnis consider them like ordinary Muslims.

(Imam Ali (a.s) to be Sahabi and 4th Rightly Guided Caliph, Imam Hassan (a.s) for some to be 5th Rightly Guided Caliph and Sahabi, Imam Hussain (a.s) to be Sahabi, Imam Ali as-Sajjad (a.s) to be from Tabieen, Imam Mohammed al-Baqir (a.s) to be from Taba Tabieen and Scholar, Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (a.s) to be Scholar. Imam Musa al-Kadhim (a.s), Imam Ali ar-Ridha (a.s), Imam Mohammed Taqi (a.s), Imam Ali Naqi (a.s) and Imam Hassan Askari to be ordinary Muslims who were given respect due to their being part of Ahlul Bayt. Imam Mehdi (a.s) is considered non-existent and different from the person mentioned by the Prophet (s) who would come before the descent of Messiah Isa ibn Maryam (a.s))

But on the other hand we Shias consider our 12 Imams to be infallible and successors of the Prophet (s) who were given knowledge possessed by the Prophet (s) and who are guides after the Prophet (s). It is for this reason we believe whatever is being said by any Imam (a.s) to be the words of Prophet (s).

Regarding your another point Prophet (s) never made Taqiyyah. We Shias believe that Prophet (s) believed Taqiyyah to be part of Islam. You may disagree but this is what we Shias believe.

Our Imams (a.s) followed a particular method in dealing with people. I will give an example (maybe it may help to understand what I am trying to convey)

When a person following Hanafi fiqh would question our Imam (a.s) regarding a particular issue/matter then our Imam (a.s) would answer that person according to Hanafi fiqh. Similarly is the case for others (i.e. Imam (a.s) would give Shafi questioner fatwa according to Shafi fiqh, Malaki questioner fatwa according Malaki fiqh and Hanbali questioner fatwa according to Hanbali fiqh). When a Shia of Imam (a.s) was to question Imam (a.s) on particular issue/matter then Imam (a.s) would give the Shia questioner fatwa according to knowledge which he received from the Prophet (s).

If our Imam (a.s) were to give all Ahlul Sunnahs same fatwa which he (a.s) gave to his Shia (a.s) then this would lead our Imam (a.s) into dangerous situation as Muslim rulers would consider our Imam (a.s) preaching his religion and misguiding Muslim people and thus liable for punishment for creating fitna and fasad in Muslim lands. And this would create a sense of distrust in the hearts of Muslim people that when they asked Imam (a.s) regarding a particular matter Imam (a.s) did not give answer according to their Fiqh and thus misguided them. So for e.g. a Sunni comes and asks the Imam (a.s) about permissibility of Mutah... the answer of Imam (a.s) would be it is Haram (as Mutah is considered Haram according to Ahlul Sunnah) and similarly when a Shia would ask our Imam (a.s) regarding permissibility of Mutah ... the answer of Imam (a.s) would be it is Halal.

If Imam (a.s) would had said to Sunni that Mutah is Halal and based on the answer of our Imam (a.s) he engages in Mutah and afterwards finds out that Mutah is Haram according to his fiqh... that person would feel angry and thus would have a sense of mistrust towards the Imam (a.s) for misguiding him.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 07:15:33 PM by Ijtaba »

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2016, 07:33:46 PM »
a
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 07:35:18 PM by Ijtaba »

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2016, 08:09:01 PM »
^

I think it is very crucial to make the distinction between what may be brought up of the Ayahs giving permission to hide one's beliefs in times of extreme danger (normally brought up in the case of Ammar (RAA) or the believer at the time of Firawn) and the Prophet (SAW) and his mission to transmit the religion reliably and correctly to the people.

After all, even if the common Muslim did say something wrong, this would not change the religion, but the Prophet (SAW) [or by extension the Imams as per the Twelvers] held a lecture or a gathering were false verdicts were being given whatever the reason may be, such a thing is 'Haalik' to the religion. It is not also not a very strong argument to say that either we Sunnis lied about 'Ali or Ja'far (RAA) or that they were forced to lie to us Sunnis, since the argument made concerning the interaction of the "Infallible" with the bigger group can always be applied to the smaller group.

Finally, it would also seem to eliminate the possibility of us taking the Twelver image of the Prophet (SAW) seriously (or any other Infallible), since 'Truthfulness' is one of the core characteristics of Prophethood, and it is obvious that this is being compromised, whoever one may blame for this situation.

You may not agree with my below stated view but this is what I believe.

Shias and Sunnis living in Muslim lands had to obey and follow orders of Muslim rulers. In situation where Muslim rulers had allowed Shias to practice their religion they would not had tolerated our Imams (a.s) to preach and influence Ahlul Sunnah with the concept of leadership believed by Shias as it would be considered by Muslims rulers challenging their leadership. Thus our Imams (a.s) and their Shias were punished for causing rebellion in Muslim lands.

In situation where Muslim rulers did not allow Shias to practice their religion freely then Shias had to migrate to such places where they could practice their religion freely.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 08:11:25 PM by Ijtaba »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2016, 08:09:53 PM »
Wa alaykum alsalam,

Brother, I suggest clicking on the links that have been included in the article for further reading about the points that you are not familiar with. Many Shias will just shrugs off what they do not understand or are not familiar with. You don't see to be that type of person.

Thanks brother Farid. I will be reading the links provided in the article for understanding more about the issues highlighted in the article.

I will respond to one point for now, since it is a huge misconception.

Quote
2- Access to the Hadith of the Noble Prophet

We Shias believe that Imams of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s) got all information from the Prophet (s) and did not speak from themselves.

This is blatantly false. 

Sometimes, Ja'afar will attribute a hadith to the Prophet - peace be upon him - . Sometimes he will attribute it to Ali. Other times he will attribute it to Zain Al-Abideen. Many times he will just attribute it to his father. In most cases, he doesn't attribute it to anyone.

Why attribute a hadith to different people when it is being said by one person? This makes absolutely no sense.

Another thing to consider is that the Prophet - peace be upon him - never made taqiyyah. With this in mind, when Ja'afar says, "Doing x is haram," then says, "Doing x is halal," he is saying two completely opposite things, and both were not said by the Prophet - peace be upon him - .

I have more thoughts to share, but we can focus on this for now.

We can agree to disagree. What you have said is correct. However there is difference of views between Ahlul Sunnah and Shias regarding 12 Imams of Shias. Sunnis consider them like ordinary Muslims.

(Imam Ali (a.s) to be Sahabi and 4th Rightly Guided Caliph, Imam Hassan (a.s) for some to be 5th Rightly Guided Caliph and Sahabi, Imam Hussain (a.s) to be Sahabi, Imam Ali as-Sajjad (a.s) to be from Tabieen, Imam Mohammed al-Baqir (a.s) to be from Taba Tabieen and Scholar, Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (a.s) to be Scholar. Imam Musa al-Kadhim (a.s), Imam Ali ar-Ridha (a.s), Imam Mohammed Taqi (a.s), Imam Ali Naqi (a.s) and Imam Hassan Askari to be ordinary Muslims who were given respect due to their being part of Ahlul Bayt. Imam Mehdi (a.s) is considered non-existent and different from the person mentioned by the Prophet (s) who would come before the descent of Messiah Isa ibn Maryam (a.s))

But on the other hand we Shias consider our 12 Imams to be infallible and successors of the Prophet (s) who were given knowledge possessed by the Prophet (s) and who are guides after the Prophet (s). It is for this reason we believe whatever is being said by any Imam (a.s) to be the words of Prophet (s).

Regarding your another point Prophet (s) never made Taqiyyah. We Shias believe that Prophet (s) believed Taqiyyah to be part of Islam. You may disagree but this is what we Shias believe.

Our Imams (a.s) followed a particular method in dealing with people. I will give an example (maybe it may help to understand what I am trying to convey)

When a person following Hanafi fiqh would question our Imam (a.s) regarding a particular issue/matter then our Imam (a.s) would answer that person according to Hanafi fiqh. Similarly is the case for others (i.e. Imam (a.s) would give Shafi questioner fatwa according to Shafi fiqh, Malaki questioner fatwa according Malaki fiqh and Hanbali questioner fatwa according to Hanbali fiqh). When a Shia of Imam (a.s) was to question Imam (a.s) on particular issue/matter then Imam (a.s) would give the Shia questioner fatwa according to knowledge which he received from the Prophet (s).

If our Imam (a.s) were to give all Ahlul Sunnahs same fatwa which he (a.s) gave to his Shia (a.s) then this would lead our Imam (a.s) into dangerous situation as Muslim rulers would consider our Imam (a.s) preaching his religion and misguiding Muslim people and thus liable for punishment for creating fitna and fasad in Muslim lands. And this would create a sense of distrust in the hearts of Muslim people that when they asked Imam (a.s) regarding a particular matter Imam (a.s) did not give answer according to their Fiqh and thus misguided them. So for e.g. a Sunni comes and asks the Imam (a.s) about permissibility of Mutah... the answer of Imam (a.s) would be it is Haram (as Mutah is considered Haram according to Ahlul Sunnah) and similarly when a Shia would ask our Imam (a.s) regarding permissibility of Mutah ... the answer of Imam (a.s) would be it is Halal.

If Imam (a.s) would had said to Sunni that Mutah is Halal and based on the answer of our Imam (a.s) he engages in Mutah and afterwards finds out that Mutah is Haram according to his fiqh... that person would feel angry and thus would have a sense of mistrust towards the Imam (a.s) for misguiding him.

UNNECESSARY INSULTS ARE NOT ALLOWED, DISCUSS WITH THE MAN HIS IDEAS.

[Admin]
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 05:22:48 AM by Hani »

Farid

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 12:29:21 AM »
I am not satisfied with your answer brother Ijtaba. The Prophet - peace be upon him - never attributed to Allah - subhanahu wa ta'ala - what is not part of the deen.

When one asks an Imam: Is doing x haram? He never asked: Is it haram according to Imam Al Shafi'ee? He asked if it is haram in the eyes of Allah.

Therefore, it is incorrect to say that the words of the Imams are the words of the Prophet - peace be upon him - .


An important follow-up question: Will these Hanafis and Malikis be punished in the day of judgement for following the "false" fatwa of the Imam?

« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 12:30:50 AM by Farid »

Hani

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 05:25:23 AM »
Quick comment: True according to Shia prophets do not do Taqiyyah since prophets are the only source of religious knowledge in their times. Ironically, most Shia will quote verses about Ibrahim (as) doing Taqiyyah in the Qur'an to back-up their stance. Their Taqiyyah belief is refuted by highlighting the fact that according to them, the Imams were also the only source of religious knowledge in their times, in this sense no difference between Imams and prophets and thus the weak belief collapses.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2016, 05:11:42 PM »
@hani:
Are you serious?
So other members can call someone a mushrik descendant of genghis khan & kafir rafidi?
I never made any takfir but you pick me out to censor?
There are posts & threads about how people feel happy at the news of deaths of shia.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 05:18:54 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

Hani

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2016, 07:07:29 PM »
@hani:
Are you serious?
So other members can call someone a mushrik descendant of genghis khan & kafir rafidi?
I never made any takfir but you pick me out to censor?
There are posts & threads about how people feel happy at the news of deaths of shia.


If I had time I'd closely monitor all of you guys and censor much of what is said. I don't so you're the unlucky one who was caught.

Also keep Daawah towards the true faith in mind. Not all Shia who come here are similar.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2016, 07:54:05 PM »
I am not satisfied with your answer brother Ijtaba. The Prophet - peace be upon him - never attributed to Allah - subhanahu wa ta'ala - what is not part of the deen.

Salaam Brother Farid

About Taqiyyah...it is shia's belief that Prophet (s) and Imams (a.s) allowed Taqiyyah. I know that Ahlul Sunnah disagree with this view (of Prophet (s) allowing Taqiyyah). I have just stated Shia's belief regarding Taqiyyah.

Quote
When one asks an Imam: Is doing x haram? He never asked: Is it haram according to Imam Al Shafi'ee? He asked if it is haram in the eyes of Allah.

When a person would ask about something... Imams (a.s) would give him answer accordingly. That is to say if a person asks Imam: is doing x haram according to Shafi madhab then Imam (a.s) would give answer according to Shafi madhab.But when the person asked if doing x is haram in the eyes of ALLAH (SWT) then Imam (a.s) would give answer according to Laws of ALLAH (SWT). The answer of the Imams (a.s) depended upon the intention of the questioner.

Quote
Therefore, it is incorrect to say that the words of the Imams are the words of the Prophet - peace be upon him - .

You are right but you have to understand that we shias believe that our Imams (a.s) are infallible and had inherited all their knowledge from the Prophet (s) so naturally it means that all the saying of Imams (a.s) are sayings of the Prophet (s) according to us.

If shias believed Imams to be fallible just like ordinary people and that they did not inherit all their knowledge from the Prophet (s) but learned them by others like ordinary people it is only then we shias would had needed a reliable chain leading to the Prophet (s) from the Imams (a.s). As we don't believe such to be the case so we don't feel the need of reliable chain as we believe sayings of our Imams (a.s) are the sayings of Prophet (s). This is shia belief which I know Ahlul Sunnah brothers disagree with.

Quote
An important follow-up question: Will these Hanafis and Malikis be punished in the day of judgement for following the "false" fatwa of the Imam?

According to my view following any fatwa of the Imam (a.s) would not bring punishment on an person. It is rather belief which brings punishment upon a person. My view maybe wrong but still I will give an example to help better understand what I am trying to say:

If a Jew comes to Nabi Isa (a.s) believing him to be learned Rabbi (i.e.Jewish Scholar) but not to be the awaited and promised Messiah nor a Prophet. He asks Nabi Isa (a.s) regarding some issue/matter. Nabi Isa (a.s) gives him answer according to the Law.

Will following the fatwa of Nabi Isa (a.s) save that Jew from the punishment?

According to me that Jew would not be saved for acting on (or following) correct fatwa of Nabi Isa (a.s) but would be punished for not believing Nabi Isa (a.s) to be a Prophet and Messiah.

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2016, 08:03:39 PM »
Quick comment: True according to Shia prophets do not do Taqiyyah since prophets are the only source of religious knowledge in their times. Ironically, most Shia will quote verses about Ibrahim (as) doing Taqiyyah in the Qur'an to back-up their stance. Their Taqiyyah belief is refuted by highlighting the fact that according to them, the Imams were also the only source of religious knowledge in their times, in this sense no difference between Imams and prophets and thus the weak belief collapses.

I agree with you Hani. But I believe there are some circumstances where knowledge should not be revealed for either of two reasons:

01. Where the person (i.e. Imam or religious scholar) life is in danger.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 121:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
I have memorized two kinds of knowledge from Allah's Apostle . I have propagated one of them to
you and if I propagated the second, then my pharynx (throat) would be cut (i.e. killed).

02. For the benefit of the questioner:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 211:

Narrated Anas:
The people started asking the Prophet too many questions importunately. So one day he ascended
the pulpit and said, "You will not ask me any question but I will explain it to you." I looked right and
left, and behold, every man was covering his head with his garment and weeping. Then got up a
man who, whenever quarreling with somebody, used to be accused of not being the son of his father.
He said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who is my father?" The Prophet replied, "Your father is Hudhaifa." Then
'Umar got up and said, "We accept Allah as our Lord, Islam as our religion and Muhammad as our
Apostle and we seek refuge with Allah from the evil of afflictions." The Prophet said, " I have never
seen the good and bad like on this day. No doubt, Paradise and Hell was displayed in front of me till I
saw them in front of that wall," Qatada said: This Hadith used to be mentioned as an explanation of
this Verse:-- 'O you who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may
cause you trouble.' (5.101)


Farid

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2016, 12:52:49 PM »
When a person would ask about something... Imams (a.s) would give him answer accordingly. That is to say if a person asks Imam: is doing x haram according to Shafi madhab then Imam (a.s) would give answer according to Shafi madhab.But when the person asked if doing x is haram in the eyes of ALLAH (SWT) then Imam (a.s) would give answer according to Laws of ALLAH (SWT). The answer of the Imams (a.s) depended upon the intention of the questioner.

Brother, you have been misinformed. The Imams did not give false answers to those that belonged to other sects, they also fed false answers to Shias themselves. Observe the following narration:

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.

al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.

al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

What are your comments on this?

Quote
According to me that Jew would not be saved for acting on (or following) correct fatwa of Nabi Isa (a.s) but would be punished for not believing Nabi Isa (a.s) to be a Prophet and Messiah.

Ah, but what if the Prophet - peace be upon him - said, "I am not a prophet." Would the Jew be punished for rejecting him as one? =]

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2016, 07:52:26 PM »
Brother, you have been misinformed. The Imams did not give false answers to those that belonged to other sects, they also fed false answers to Shias themselves.

Observe the following narration:

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.

al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.

al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

What are your comments on this?

You are right. Imams (a.s) did give different answers to their Shias. There are two reasons for this:

01. Firstly, Imams (a.s) used to answer each questioner according to his mental caliber for the questioner to understand properly.

02. Second reason for different answer was for the protection of Imams (a.s) and their Shias as stated in the narration provided by you.

Quote
Ah, but what if the Prophet - peace be upon him - said, "I am not a prophet." Would the Jew be punished for rejecting him as one? =]

As far as my knowedge I have not yet seen any naration where Prophet (s) denied his (s) Prophethood. Prophets (a.s) never denied their Prophethood nor did they call people towards Shirk. Neither Imams (a.s) have called people towards Shirk nor denied their Imamat.

Quote
Nahjul Balagha
Sermon 92: Leave me and find someone else... When people decided to swear allegiance at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said:

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.

دَعُوني وَالْـتَمِسُوا غَيْرِي; فإِنَّا مُسْتَقْبِلُونَ أَمْراً لَهُ وُجُوهٌ وَأَلْوَانٌ; لاَ تَقُومُ لَهُ الْقُلُوبُ، وَلاَ تَثْبُتُ عَلَيْهِ الْعُقُولُ، وَإِنَّ الاْفَاقَ قَدْ أَغَامَتْ، وَالْـمَحَجَّةَ قَدْ تَنَكَّرَتْ. وَاعْلَمُوا أَنِّي إنْ أَجَبْتُكُمْ رَكِبْتُ بِكُمْ مَا أَعْلَمُ، وَلَمْ أُصْغِ إِلَى قَوْلِ الْقَائِلِ وَعَتْبِ الْعَاتِبِ، وَإِنْ تَرَكْتُمُونِي فَأَنَا كَأَحَدِكُمْ; وَلَعَلِّي أَسْمَعُكُمْ وَأَطْوَعُكُمْ لِمنْ وَلَّيْتُمُوهُ أَمْرَكُمْ، وَأَنَا لَكُمْ وَزِيراً، خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ مِنِّي أَمِيراً!

Alternative Sources for Sermon 92
(1) Al-Tabari, Ta'rikh,* VI, 3066 (events of the year 35);
(2) Ibn al-'Athir, al-Nihayah (events of the year 35);
(3) Ibn Miskawayh, Tajarib al-'umam, I, 508.

In above narration from Nahjul Balagha one can see Imam Ali (a.s) who is to be listened and obeyed by the people and who is considered to be from the Ulil Amr according to Shias is himself saying that he would listen to and obey whomever the people make in charge of their affairs. He who is considered as Ameer ul Momineen by Shias is preferring to be counselor rather than as chief.

The reason for this according to Shias is that Imam Ali (a.s) wanted sincere pledge of allegiance so that in future no one could say that they were forced to pledge allegiance to Imam Ali (a.s). Even if no one had pledged allegiance to Imam Ali (a.s) after the above quoted speech of the Imam (a.s) the belief of Shias is that Imam Ali (a.s) would still be Imam who is to be listened and obeyed and would still be from Ulil Amr i.e. the one who is in charge of people's affairs.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 07:54:52 PM by Ijtaba »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2016, 09:53:39 PM »
Ijtaba:

I reject your assertion that the Imams would mislead people to protect certain of their followers.
There are so many fairy tales in your books about this so called companion of the Imams & that one who would debate openly & challenge the 'highest scholars from all the schools of thought' infront of the Umayyad & Abbassid caliphs in their palaces & courts.
Yet when we see the biographies of these men we see the Imams cursing them. Your people say they only cursed them to protect them.
So which is it? Were their beliefs kept secret & low key only for the true shia to know or were they the champion scholars & famous open debaters as shia claim?
Do you see the contradictions & the illogic?

Farid

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2016, 12:41:14 PM »
Quote
You are right. Imams (a.s) did give different answers to their Shias. There are two reasons for this:

01. Firstly, Imams (a.s) used to answer each questioner according to his mental caliber for the questioner to understand properly.

02. Second reason for different answer was for the protection of Imams (a.s) and their Shias as stated in the narration provided by you.

Our Prophet - peace be upon him - didn't give fatwas based on taqiyyah, nor did he give different rulings to different people based on their mental capacity.

He only taught the Shari'ah of Allah. Nothing  more.

To suggest that the Imams can give contradicting rulings, then to say that "what they say is what the Prophet - peace be upon him - says," is falsehood.

Swallow your pride and fear Allah.

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2016, 03:06:29 PM »
Ijtaba:

I reject your assertion that the Imams would mislead people to protect certain of their followers.
There are so many fairy tales in your books about this so called companion of the Imams & that one who would debate openly & challenge the 'highest scholars from all the schools of thought' infront of the Umayyad & Abbassid caliphs in their palaces & courts.

- May I know the name of this so-called companion of the Imams?

- If this so-called companion of the Imams would debate openly & challenge the 'highest scholars from all the schools of thought' infront of the Umayyad & Abbassid caliphs in their palaces & courts... don't you think he would be putting the lives of the Imams in danger. I did like to know if the Imams of so-called companion gave him permission to go and openly challenge & debate because as far as I know Imams may not have allowed any of their Shia to openly challenge and debate infront of Ummayad & Abbassid caliphs.

Quote
Yet when we see the biographies of these men we see the Imams cursing them. Your people say they only cursed them to protect them.
So which is it? Were their beliefs kept secret & low key only for the true shia to know or were they the champion scholars & famous open debaters as shia claim?
Do you see the contradictions & the illogic?

Imams (a.s) cursed people for a reason. The reason for cursing a person is that the cursed person is enemy of Islam. It can also be that the cursed person has done some action which has caused lives of innocent people to be in danger. Lastly there may be exception i.e. the reason for curse is to protect the person's life. This exceptional reason should be supported by strong evidences i.e. there should exist narrations/ explicit sayings of Imams (a.s) where they would say that the cursed person is a true believer and the only reason he was cursed was to protect his life. If there does not exist such evidence then the cursed person is truly cursed in the eyes of the Imams and the curse was not to protect his life.

Ijtaba

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2016, 03:17:42 PM »
Our Prophet - peace be upon him - didn't give fatwas based on taqiyyah, nor did he give different rulings to different people based on their mental capacity.

He only taught the Shari'ah of Allah. Nothing  more.

To suggest that the Imams can give contradicting rulings, then to say that "what they say is what the Prophet - peace be upon him - says," is falsehood.

I am not well-versed in Islamic rulings and don't have knowledge regarding Islamic laws but I would like to give an example to help better understand what I was trying to say.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 74, Number 276:

Narrated 'Ali:
Allah's Apostle sent me, Az-Zubair bin Al-Awwam and Abu Marthad Al-Ghanawi, and all of us were horsemen, and he said, "Proceed till you reach Rawdat Khakh, where there is a woman from the pagans carrying a letter sent by Hatib bin Abi Balta'a to the pagans (of Mecca)." So we overtook her while she was proceeding on her camel at the same place as Allah's Apostle told us. We said (to her) "Where is the letter which is with you?" She said, "I have no letter with me." So we made her camel kneel down and searched her mount (baggage etc) but could not find anything. My two companions said, "We do not see any letter." I said, "I know that Allah's Apostle did not tell a lie. By Allah, if you (the lady) do not bring out the letter, I will strip you of your clothes' When she noticed that I was serious, she put her hand into the knot of her waist sheet, for she was tying a sheet round herself, and brought out the letter. So we proceeded to Allah's Apostle with the letter. The Prophet said (to Habib), "What made you o what you have done, O Hatib?" Hatib replied, "I have done nothing except that I believe in Allah and His Apostle, and I have not changed or altered (my religion). But I wanted to do the favor to the people (pagans of Mecca) through which Allah might protect my family and my property, as there is none among your companions but has someone in Mecca through whom Allah protects his property (against harm). The Prophet said, "Habib has told you the truth, so do not say to him (anything) but good." 'Umar bin Al-Khattab said, "Verily he has betrayed Allah, His Apostle, and the believers! Allow me to chop his neck off!" The Prophet said, "O 'Umar! What do you know; perhaps Allah looked upon the Badr warriors and said, 'Do whatever you like, for I have ordained that you will be in Paradise.'" On that 'Umar wept and said, "Allah and His Apostle know best."


If today someone was to do what Habib bin Abi Balta'a did... what would be the ruling for that person.

According to Umar bin Al-Khattab the ruling for that person would be, "Verily he has betrayed Allah, His Apostle, and the believers! Allow me to chop his neck off!"

But this ruling was not applied on Habib bin Abi Balta'a because the Prophet said, "O 'Umar! What do you know; perhaps Allah looked upon the Badr warriors and said, 'Do whatever you like, for I have ordained that you will be in Paradise.'

Different ruling for different person. The ruling applied on Habib bin Abi Balta'a would not be applied on ordinary Muslims because Habib bin Abi Balta'a was Badri warrior and this ruling is only for Badri warriors and not applicable on ordinary Muslims.

Prophet's (s) judgement:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 86, Number 97:

Narrated Um Salama:
The Prophet said, "I am only a human being, and you people have disputes. May be some one amongst you can present his case in a more eloquent and convincing manner than the other, and I give my judgment in his favor according to what I hear. Beware! If ever I give (by error) somebody something of his brother's right then he should not take it as I have only, given him a piece of Fire."
(See Hadith No. 638. Vol. 3)


According to this ahadith we come to know that Prophet (s) may give judgement in favor of an oppressor. If the person in whose favor the judgement is given accepts the Prophet's (s) judgement then that person would end up taking a piece of Fire.

Is it acceptable for us to follow such ruling (as mentioned in the above ahadith) of the Prophet (s) where the person in whose favor judgement would be given would end up taking a piece of Fire?


Farid

Re: 12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2016, 03:33:12 PM »
The example you have provided is irrelevant.

Hatib (not Habib) was pardoned due to his status.  It does not make what he did Halal. Treason is Haram in all cases. If you were to provide an example of the Prophet - peace be upon him - telling some of his students that treason is Halal, then telling others that treason is Haram, then you could make an argument out of that.

The example that I have provided clearly shows that the Imam taught his students false religious rulings, out of taqiyyah. Can you provide an example of the Prophet - peace be upon him - doing this?

If not, then to claim that both statements of the Imam are "the words of the Prophet - peace be upon him - " is utter falsehood.

Please consider this before you make another hasty post. Remember that Allah - subhanahu wa ta'ala - is watching you.

 

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