Random thoughts of an Ex-Shii

[Hani]

I bet you they got all of these lame excuses from their ancestor al-Murtada who wrote a book trying to explain every single verse in a way that no Prophet ever made any mistakes/sins/forgetful acts.


It's a dumb book, you should all read it as it can be used against Shia Haha.

Basically the likes Hisham bin al-Hakam, they got this filthy belief from Mu`tazillah and people of Kalaam and philosophy.

Because they don't care about Qur'an and Sunnah, and because they all hate the guts of the Imams of Hadith, they wanted to oppose them and come up with their own genius theories.

The result is that they robbed the Prophet (saw) of his humanity, you call him a robot, an angel, but not a human... Which makes us feel distant from him, an makes us feel that we can never emulate him since he's not like us, we're detached from his personality, a man we cannot admire because he's incapable of making any error whatsoever without any effort on his part.

[Ameen]

I bet you they got all of these lame excuses from their ancestor al-Murtada who wrote a book trying to explain every single verse in a way that no Prophet ever made any mistakes/sins/forgetful acts.


It's a dumb book, you should all read it as it can be used against Shia Haha.

Basically the likes Hisham bin al-Hakam, they got this filthy belief from Mu`tazillah and people of Kalaam and philosophy.

Because they don't care about Qur'an and Sunnah, and because they all hate the guts of the Imams of Hadith, they wanted to oppose them and come up with their own genius theories.

The result is that they robbed the Prophet (saw) of his humanity, you call him a robot, an angel, but not a human... Which makes us feel distant from him, an makes us feel that we can never emulate him since he's not like us, we're detached from his personality, a man we cannot admire because he's incapable of making any error whatsoever without any effort on his part.

Honestly some of your posts just make me laugh. Especially this one where there is nothing positive and constructive in it, apart from the bit at the end.

The Quran is infallible because you have,

"Zalikal Kithabo La Raiba Fee" meaning "This is that book where there is no mistake, fault or error of any kind or type in it".

Now such an important book, such an unique book (Quran) was revealed upon someone who was capable of making mistakes, errors and faults.

Such an important task, such an unique task (final revelation) was put on such a person who was capable of getting it wrong.

Another question comes to mind here, "Mustafa" means "the chosen one". Now there are two ways to choose; At random or through standard and quality.

My question to you is how was Muhammad chosen for this task???














 

[Hani]

Gee I dunno, He looked for an infallible human and chose him? There's a lot of these infallible folks running about here and there so He picked one.

[Ameen]

Gee I dunno, He looked for an infallible human and chose him? There's a lot of these infallible folks running about here and there so He picked one.

A very surprising response you've given me. Come on, you can do better than this. Your post is based on slander, speaking I'll and bad about someone, speaking low and down upon someone. This is not you. If this was from someone else than that is a different matter but you're an intelligent guy, like brother Farid. something like this from you is surprising.

So Allah picked someone from and amongst the people at random to introduce the final revelation, to reveal the infallible message, an infallible book through someone who is capable of getting it wrong??? Mashallah!

Some belief you have here, I must say. But when someone raises questions on how the Quran was assembled, how it was put together, how it was compiled and set up, the accuracy and planning then, you have no doubts here, nothing could go wrong here but when it comes to the Prophet (pbuh) then, he was capable of making mistakes, errors and had faults???

Ok, since the Prophet (pbuh) is fallible, capable of making mistakes, errors and has faults then, the possibility of something going wrong somewhere does exist and is in place??? This is what we think of the Prophet (pbuh) then, would you mind telling me what went wrong and where he went wrong???

When questions are raised about the companions then why do we believe in Takfeer on the Sahaba? Why do you instantly jump to their defence and start to clear them clean on everything they are accused off??? Ok, not every where and in every place but they must have gone wrong somewhere??? If not fully then partially??? But no, we show them as saints. Why??? We do not believe they were saints but we clear them absolutely clean on everything and in every place.

This is exactly what sainthood is. Being clear and clean on everything and everywhere. Any positive and constructive response??? Conclusion, the Prophet is fallible, he is capable of making mistakes, errors and has faults. The possibility of something going wrong somewhere exists and is in place. Would you mind giving me a list of where he went wrong and how he went wrong???

This is getting interesting!

[Hani]

Don't worry, even if the Prophet (saw) makes mistakes, errors and forgets things, Allah will still help him when he is transmitting the book, so that it won't have any mistakes or errors or anything missing.

[Ameen]

Did he make any mistakes and or errors??? Did he have any faults within him? If yes, then what were they and how exactly did Allah help him???

[Furkan]

Prophets are sinless but human

[Ameen]

Prophets are sinless but human

I don't think you know what is being discussed here. We are talking about mistakes, errors and faults about the last Messenger (pbuh). Do you believe that Muhammad (pbuh) made mistakes and errors, had faults within him???

[Bolani Muslim]

Other Prophets made mistakes (not sins), and their is evidence Hazrat Mohammad (saw) was also the same. He says himself that he is human, and making mistakes is part of being human and makes our Prophet (saw) even more special. If the Prophet was turned into an angel (without ability to error) then that would mean its impossible to emulate him, but since He's a full human being it makes it possible for us to look up to him.
That was my 2 cents, what do you believe Ameen that the Prophet (Saw) was able to error (eg forget) or not?

[Hani]

Okay, here's some examples:


Prophet Musa (as) in Surat al-A`raf 150:



{And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said, "How wretched is that by which you have replaced me after [my departure]. Were you impatient over the matter of your Lord?" And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by [the hair of] his head, pulling him toward him. [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, indeed the people oppressed me and were about to kill me, so let not the enemies rejoice over me and do not place me among the wrongdoing people."}


Which infallible here is correct and which infallible is wrong? The one who lost his temper and beat up his brother without investigating the matter? Or the one who could not control the people and keep them on the path?


Or Surat al-Kahf 73:


{And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?" - [Moses] said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order." - He [Khidr] said, "Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention." - So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidhr tore it open. [Moses] said, "Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing." - [Al-Khidhr] said, "Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?" - [Moses] said, "Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty."}


Why was he impatient although he promised to be patient, and why did he say he forgot?


Did Nuh (as) make a mistake by saying what he said in Hud 47:


{And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges!" - He said, "O Noah, indeed he is not of your family; indeed, he is [one whose] work was other than righteous, so ask Me not for that about which you have no knowledge. Indeed, I advise you, lest you be among the ignorant." - [Noah] said, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from asking that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have mercy upon me, I will be among the losers."}


Seems like a mistake to me.


Or Yunus who left his people after they annoyed him in Al-Anbiya' 97:


{And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou Glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.}


As for our Prophet (saw), then there are also verses such as:


{O Prophet, why do you prohibit what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.}


{May Allah pardon you, [O Muhammad]; why did you give them permission [to remain behind]? [You should not have] until it was evident to you who were truthful and you knew [who were] the liars.}


Explain these to me and if you're explanation is convincing we move to something else.

[Hani]

Most importantly, it is known that humans err, they make mistakes and they forget. This is the general rule, so can I ask where it is that you learned that our master Muhammad (saw) is incapable of any of this? What verse and what Surah says so?


I can also add loads of Shia narrations showing that the Imams are not infallible.

[Husayn]

The result is that they robbed the Prophet (saw) of his humanity, you call him a robot, an angel, but not a human... Which makes us feel distant from him, an makes us feel that we can never emulate him since he's not like us, we're detached from his personality, a man we cannot admire because he's incapable of making any error whatsoever without any effort on his part.

Indeed bro.

I used to think to myself - why didn't God make me totally infallible and faultless? Isn't it unfair that he programmed certain men to never ever be able to sin or make even the most minor mistake - yet here I am, a normal human being, who is told to emulate them? How is that possible?

What is more praiseworthy:

Rasul Allah (saw) being a normal man who gets tired, can forget, can get annoyed, angry, sad - and yet strive as Allah (swt) has ordered him and taught him, to be the best example?

Or

A robot who is programmed to never ever make even the slightest mistake, whether he wills it or not?

[Hani]

Isn't it unfair that he programmed certain men to never ever be able to sin or make even the most minor mistake - yet here I am, a normal human being, who is told to emulate them? How is that possible?

Because they're from Ahlul-Bayt that's why!

: p

[Hadrami]

Okay, here's some examples:


Prophet Musa (as) in Surat al-A`raf 150:



{And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said, "How wretched is that by which you have replaced me after [my departure]. Were you impatient over the matter of your Lord?" And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by [the hair of] his head, pulling him toward him. [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, indeed the people oppressed me and were about to kill me, so let not the enemies rejoice over me and do not place me among the wrongdoing people."}


Which infallible here is correct and which infallible is wrong? The one who lost his temper and beat up his brother without investigating the matter? Or the one who could not control the people and keep them on the path?


Or Surat al-Kahf 73:


{And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?" - [Moses] said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order." - He [Khidr] said, "Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention." - So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidhr tore it open. [Moses] said, "Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing." - [Al-Khidhr] said, "Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?" - [Moses] said, "Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty."}


Why was he impatient although he promised to be patient, and why did he say he forgot?


Did Nuh (as) make a mistake by saying what he said in Hud 47:


{And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges!" - He said, "O Noah, indeed he is not of your family; indeed, he is [one whose] work was other than righteous, so ask Me not for that about which you have no knowledge. Indeed, I advise you, lest you be among the ignorant." - [Noah] said, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from asking that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have mercy upon me, I will be among the losers."}


Seems like a mistake to me.


Or Yunus who left his people after they annoyed him in Al-Anbiya' 97:


{And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou Glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.}


As for our Prophet (saw), then there are also verses such as:


{O Prophet, why do you prohibit what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.}


{May Allah pardon you, [O Muhammad]; why did you give them permission [to remain behind]? [You should not have] until it was evident to you who were truthful and you knew [who were] the liars.}


Explain these to me and if you're explanation is convincing we move to something else.

if ameen replied with anything other than explanation to these verses, you should delete it Hani until he does. Unfortunately, i cant see any other way to make someone like him to produce any meaningful response.

[Bolani Muslim]

One thing I noticed when as I was attending shia temple, was how it was easy for them to praise 14 masoom, but harder to praise the prophet (ص). For example, one thing I was taught was how the imam were born as superhumans (eg. imam doing sujda at birth, having full knowledge of Islam at birth, leading salaam janaza at age 4) however our Prophet was a 'regular' human until he received revelation. So it's an indirect way of making the saints higher than the prophet (ص).

[Ameen]

Other Prophets made mistakes (not sins), and their is evidence Hazrat Mohammad (saw) was also the same. He says himself that he is human, and making mistakes is part of being human and makes our Prophet (saw) even more special. If the Prophet was turned into an angel (without ability to error) then that would mean its impossible to emulate him, but since He's a full human being it makes it possible for us to look up to him.
That was my 2 cents, what do you believe Ameen that the Prophet (Saw) was able to error (eg forget) or not?

Brother you said,

"there is evidence that Muhammad (pbuh) made mistakes and errors, had faults with in him",

Is this tue??? Can you confirm this??? If yes then, I would like to see that evidence please.

Secondly we are humans because we are subject to sin. There is the possibility for us to sin. Well the opition is there for us to sin or not.

If Prophets are humans and you believe that they are a subject to mistakes and errors, having faults with in them because that is what makes you a human but can't sin then, why can't they be a subject to sin??? This is also what makes you a human, so why can't they sin???

Many thanks!

[Ameen]

I mean you'rer talking about humanity here and using the subject to/of committing mistakes and errors, having faults within you to prove they're (Prophets/Messengers) humanity then, being a subject to sin, having the ability and option to sin also makes you a human and proves your humanity then, why can Prophets and Messengers be a subject to one since they're human but not the other when that has to do with being human as well???

 

[Ameen]

One thing I noticed when as I was attending shia temple, was how it was easy for them to praise 14 masoom, but harder to praise the prophet (ص). For example, one thing I was taught was how the imam were born as superhumans (eg. imam doing sujda at birth, having full knowledge of Islam at birth, leading salaam janaza at age 4) however our Prophet was a 'regular' human until he received revelation. So it's an indirect way of making the saints higher than the prophet (ص).

This is not true. I don't know which temple you were at and who taught you but Shias don't have temples, they have mosques and Imambarghas.

So you where at the wrong place.

[Ameen]

Okay, here's some examples:


Prophet Musa (as) in Surat al-A`raf 150:



{And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said, "How wretched is that by which you have replaced me after [my departure]. Were you impatient over the matter of your Lord?" And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by [the hair of] his head, pulling him toward him. [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, indeed the people oppressed me and were about to kill me, so let not the enemies rejoice over me and do not place me among the wrongdoing people."}


Which infallible here is correct and which infallible is wrong? The one who lost his temper and beat up his brother without investigating the matter? Or the one who could not control the people and keep them on the path?


Or Surat al-Kahf 73:


{And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?" - [Moses] said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order." - He [Khidr] said, "Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention." - So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidhr tore it open. [Moses] said, "Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing." - [Al-Khidhr] said, "Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?" - [Moses] said, "Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty."}


Why was he impatient although he promised to be patient, and why did he say he forgot?


Did Nuh (as) make a mistake by saying what he said in Hud 47:


{And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges!" - He said, "O Noah, indeed he is not of your family; indeed, he is [one whose] work was other than righteous, so ask Me not for that about which you have no knowledge. Indeed, I advise you, lest you be among the ignorant." - [Noah] said, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from asking that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have mercy upon me, I will be among the losers."}


Seems like a mistake to me.


Or Yunus who left his people after they annoyed him in Al-Anbiya' 97:


{And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou Glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.}


As for our Prophet (saw), then there are also verses such as:


{O Prophet, why do you prohibit what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.}


{May Allah pardon you, [O Muhammad]; why did you give them permission [to remain behind]? [You should not have] until it was evident to you who were truthful and you knew [who were] the liars.}


Explain these to me and if you're explanation is convincing we move to something else.

if ameen replied with anything other than explanation to these verses, you should delete it Hani until he does. Unfortunately, i cant see any other way to make someone like him to produce any meaningful response.

Hang on a minute, I have asked many questions and have not got a response for most  of them. May be you would like to give a meanigful response before asking for one.

Could you give me a list of mistakes and errors that Muhammad (pbuh) made??? Any faults that the man had since he was human according to you??? Well??? Mmmmm???

This is what I asked, so where is this meaningful response??? You're just a bias individual, aren't you?? You're always quick to pick on me but hopeless when it comes to contribution.

[Ameen]

The result is that they robbed the Prophet (saw) of his humanity, you call him a robot, an angel, but not a human... Which makes us feel distant from him, an makes us feel that we can never emulate him since he's not like us, we're detached from his personality, a man we cannot admire because he's incapable of making any error whatsoever without any effort on his part.

Indeed bro.

I used to think to myself - why didn't God make me totally infallible and faultless? Isn't it unfair that he programmed certain men to never ever be able to sin or make even the most minor mistake - yet here I am, a normal human being, who is told to emulate them? How is that possible?

What is more praiseworthy:

Rasul Allah (saw) being a normal man who gets tired, can forget, can get annoyed, angry, sad - and yet strive as Allah (swt) has ordered him and taught him, to be the best example?

Or

A robot who is programmed to never ever make even the slightest mistake, whether he wills it or not?

You do a lot of thinking bro but I am afraid it is all one sided. Why did Allah just create heaven and not hell and just put everybody in to heaven??? Why didn't Allah do this or why didn't Allah do that. My friend if we start thinking like this then the list is endless.

Allah has clearly said in some matters,

"Inni Aalamo Ma La Talamoon" meaning "I know of that which you do not".

Once again if Muhammad (pbuh) made mistakes and errors then what were they??? And if Muhammad (pbuh) was human like me and you, capable of making errors and mistakes and having faults then, why did Allah chosose him??? Why not me or you??? What was so special about him??? Why couldn't me or you do the job with Allah's help and guidance??? There has to be something different about him, don't you think???

Come on, I am giving you a logical argument.