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salam - why I left Shia sect

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Hani

Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2017, 12:50:57 AM »

The Hadith you've mentioned where is it and what is the source? The one I've mentioned is widely accepted by the vast majority of the Muslims apart from those who hold grudge against Ali. Love the Ansaar doesn't mean accept and take what ever they say and do.

Why did they gather in Saqifa and what was the point when the Messenger (s) had already dealt with the matter and left two WEIGHTY things behind for the Ummah to hold on to, to keep together and not to separate? Who were better than the Ahle Bayth and who was more better and worthy than Ali to govern?

The following verse;
"take what the messenger gives you and abstain from what he forbids you."

Did they (Ummah/Sahaba) take what the Prophet (s) gave them (the two weighty things)? Neither did they and nor have you.

The Hadith of the Ansar I gave you is also widely accepted and narrated in a ton of books. Here's a link to Bukhari:
http://muslimway.org/prophet-muhammad/369-Sahih-Bukhari/Merits-of-the-Helpers-in-Madinah-Ansaar/5157-the-prophet-said-qthe-sign-of-belief-is-to-love-the-ansar-and-the-sign-of-hypocrisy-is-to-hate-the

What're you going to do now? Of course, due to your weakness of understanding, you created a conflict, you bashed two narrations against eachother.

I can say likewise:

"Loving `Ali doesn't mean to accept and take what ever he does."

Secondly, who told you the Prophet (saw) dealt with the issue with Thaqalayn? Do you understand what the word Thaqal means? Weighty and burdensome? A responsibility of those two elements was transferred to us but it was no appointment. If he (saw) told us to take care of his family, that doesn't mean he appointed them as leaders.

Why would you even quote Thaqalayn? Where does it mention `Ali?

The Prophet (saw) narrated in the authentic that he'd travel through any valley the Ansar travel through, have you followed the Ansar in Saqifah?

Show us how you understand religious texts without cherry picking and creating conflict.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2017, 04:25:13 AM »
But we held on to the two WEIGHTY things and are still holding on to them and keeping them together and side by side.
how? the imam is hiding and many of your scholars believe he hide the real mushaf with him too 😂😂

iceman

Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2017, 02:31:40 PM »
A sect that is obsessed too much with cursing is not from Allah.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/09/15/lanat/

What is and isn't from Allah is not for you or us to decide. It's got nothing to do with too much or too little. The boundaries and limits are not for you or us to lay down.

Yes, it's in fact for every single one of us to find-out what is from God and worship him based on this.

So why don't we all do that or why aren't we all doing that? Why do you mitigate certain matters and cause chaos and confusion about them? Allah's (s) decisions, sayings and doings are not cherry picking and shouldn't be subject to mitigation or confusion.

The incidents and verses concerning Mobahila and Tat'heer are there for those who have sense and logic and see things through wisdom and intellect. These are the ones who have been chosen and selected by Allah (s).

And they are the Ulul Amre and the Wali alongside Allah (s) and his Messenger (s). These are the third in line in authority according to the sequence put down by Allah (s). What is difficult to understand here apart from the fact that it blows Saqifa straight out of the window.

There is guidance (hidaya) from Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) but there is a condition and that is 'for only those who seek it'. Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) would never leave the Ummah without a guide and in disarray.

iceman

Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2017, 05:26:41 PM »

The Hadith you've mentioned where is it and what is the source? The one I've mentioned is widely accepted by the vast majority of the Muslims apart from those who hold grudge against Ali. Love the Ansaar doesn't mean accept and take what ever they say and do.

Why did they gather in Saqifa and what was the point when the Messenger (s) had already dealt with the matter and left two WEIGHTY things behind for the Ummah to hold on to, to keep together and not to separate? Who were better than the Ahle Bayth and who was more better and worthy than Ali to govern?

The following verse;
"take what the messenger gives you and abstain from what he forbids you."

Did they (Ummah/Sahaba) take what the Prophet (s) gave them (the two weighty things)? Neither did they and nor have you.

The Hadith of the Ansar I gave you is also widely accepted and narrated in a ton of books. Here's a link to Bukhari:
http://muslimway.org/prophet-muhammad/369-Sahih-Bukhari/Merits-of-the-Helpers-in-Madinah-Ansaar/5157-the-prophet-said-qthe-sign-of-belief-is-to-love-the-ansar-and-the-sign-of-hypocrisy-is-to-hate-the

What're you going to do now? Of course, due to your weakness of understanding, you created a conflict, you bashed two narrations against eachother.

I can say likewise:

"Loving `Ali doesn't mean to accept and take what ever he does."

Secondly, who told you the Prophet (saw) dealt with the issue with Thaqalayn? Do you understand what the word Thaqal means? Weighty and burdensome? A responsibility of those two elements was transferred to us but it was no appointment. If he (saw) told us to take care of his family, that doesn't mean he appointed them as leaders.

Why would you even quote Thaqalayn? Where does it mention `Ali?

The Prophet (saw) narrated in the authentic that he'd travel through any valley the Ansar travel through, have you followed the Ansar in Saqifah?

Show us how you understand religious texts without cherry picking and creating conflict.

The Hadith you gave me is widely accepted. Well it may be now just and only to justify and somewhat legitimise Saqifa but history tells us different. Here is a very important piece of hidtory;

. After the demise of the Prophet (s), Ansar gathered in Saqifa before everybody else goes there, announcing Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a well-reputed companion of the Prophet (s) and the head of Khazraj as their candidate for caliphate. However, it was opposed by some Muhajirun who took caliphate to be their right. Each group mentioned their virtues and intimacy with the Prophet (s), considering itself to deserve the occupation of caliphate more than the other one.

When Ansar failed to seize the power, they suggested that they share it with the Muhajirun. But this strategy failed too, and when Muhajirun overtook the power, Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a candidate for caliphate did not give up and threatened to launch a battle against Muhajirun.
 
Will talk about this further.

iceman

Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2017, 06:04:13 PM »

The Hadith you've mentioned where is it and what is the source? The one I've mentioned is widely accepted by the vast majority of the Muslims apart from those who hold grudge against Ali. Love the Ansaar doesn't mean accept and take what ever they say and do.

Why did they gather in Saqifa and what was the point when the Messenger (s) had already dealt with the matter and left two WEIGHTY things behind for the Ummah to hold on to, to keep together and not to separate? Who were better than the Ahle Bayth and who was more better and worthy than Ali to govern?

The following verse;
"take what the messenger gives you and abstain from what he forbids you."

Did they (Ummah/Sahaba) take what the Prophet (s) gave them (the two weighty things)? Neither did they and nor have you.

The Hadith of the Ansar I gave you is also widely accepted and narrated in a ton of books. Here's a link to Bukhari:
http://muslimway.org/prophet-muhammad/369-Sahih-Bukhari/Merits-of-the-Helpers-in-Madinah-Ansaar/5157-the-prophet-said-qthe-sign-of-belief-is-to-love-the-ansar-and-the-sign-of-hypocrisy-is-to-hate-the

What're you going to do now? Of course, due to your weakness of understanding, you created a conflict, you bashed two narrations against eachother.

I can say likewise:

"Loving `Ali doesn't mean to accept and take what ever he does."

Secondly, who told you the Prophet (saw) dealt with the issue with Thaqalayn? Do you understand what the word Thaqal means? Weighty and burdensome? A responsibility of those two elements was transferred to us but it was no appointment. If he (saw) told us to take care of his family, that doesn't mean he appointed them as leaders.

Why would you even quote Thaqalayn? Where does it mention `Ali?

The Prophet (saw) narrated in the authentic that he'd travel through any valley the Ansar travel through, have you followed the Ansar in Saqifah?

Show us how you understand religious texts without cherry picking and creating conflict.

The Hadith you gave me is widely accepted. Well it may be now just and only to justify and somewhat legitimise Saqifa but history tells us different. Here is a very important piece of hidtory;

. After the demise of the Prophet (s), Ansar gathered in Saqifa before everybody else goes there, announcing Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a well-reputed companion of the Prophet (s) and the head of Khazraj as their candidate for caliphate. However, it was opposed by some Muhajirun who took caliphate to be their right. Each group mentioned their virtues and intimacy with the Prophet (s), considering itself to deserve the occupation of caliphate more than the other one.

When Ansar failed to seize the power, they suggested that they share it with the Muhajirun. But this strategy failed too, and when Muhajirun overtook the power, Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a candidate for caliphate did not give up and threatened to launch a battle against Muhajirun.
 
Will talk about this further.

Now tell me did the Muhajirun love and follow the Ansaar? Surely they must have been familiar with the Hadith you mentioned and put forward to strengthen your argument. When Abu Baqr and Omar were told about the Ansaar gathering in Saqifa they both left the Prophet's (s) funeral procession and quickly fled to Saqifa. What, to show their love for the Ansaar and to follow them? Did they not rush to stop and oppose the Ansaar?

I don't think it is your weakness of understanding but I think it is just your deliberate and desperate attempt to justify and legitimise the decision reached in Saqifa. But the decision reached wasn't out of love for the Ansaar and in respect for this Hadith you mention.

Farid

Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2017, 06:29:45 PM »
Brothers, stop derailing the thread. If you want to discuss Ansar or Saqeeda, or anything unrelated to brother Kian's conversion, then please do it in another thread.

Welcome aboard iceman.

iceman

Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2017, 08:43:09 PM »
Brothers, stop derailing the thread. If you want to discuss Ansar or Saqeeda, or anything unrelated to brother Kian's conversion, then please do it in another thread.

Welcome aboard iceman.

Sounds fair. Agreed!

 

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