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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Ex-Shias => Topic started by: Kian on September 14, 2017, 08:07:44 PM

Title: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Kian on September 14, 2017, 08:07:44 PM
As Salam Aleikum,

Its nice to be hear. I got this site recommended by Agha Hassan Shemrani. My name is Kian and Im a ex Shia, born and rise in Germany. I was Shia my whole Life and left schiism a couple of years ago. I set it up few sites on facebook including 2 websites questioning and discussion shia faith.
FACEBOOK: English:https://www.facebook.com/ShiaReformist/
German:https://www.facebook.com/Progressivershiablog/
Website German: https://shiareformistblog.wordpress.com/
and in partnership:https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/

What made me left schiism? Over a long time period, i became more and more suspicious about certain concepts like tatbir, swearing and slandering sahabiyyun and the khalifah. but what really helped me to leave 12er schiism was the lectures of sayyed fadlullah(ra), he had a big impact on me. when he has spoken about ghuluw, doubted the attack on fatimas house and that not all in nahjul balagha is authentic, i began my research and it didnt toke long to discover more and more questions before getting answers. during my time of research, i was hoping to get help from my shia brothers and published my results on facebook. i regret that quickly as they have made fast takfir on me and my critical views. i decided to search for other muslims who are on the research way like me and found a large group of shia reformists in london, other parts of UK and even in other countries. they supported me in my investigation and so i decided one day to leave the belief of the 12er shia sect. what really helped me was the meeting with scheikh ahmad al katib a ex 12er shia scholar from iraq. we became good friends and today i have regular meetings were scheikh katib is given me great lectures.


Thread title edited/improved by Admin
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 16, 2017, 02:20:56 AM
Salam, I've seen your reformist site long ago. I also watch some vids on Al Katib's YT channel, he has done good research. Welcome.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: confusedshia on September 16, 2017, 02:39:28 AM
As Salam Aleikum,

Its nice to be hear. I got this site recommended by Agha Hassan Shemrani. My name is Kian and Im a ex Shia, born and rise in Germany. I was Shia my whole Life and left schiism a couple of years ago. I set it up few sites on facebook including 2 websites questioning and discussion shia faith.
FACEBOOK: English:https://www.facebook.com/ShiaReformist/
German:https://www.facebook.com/Progressivershiablog/
Website German: https://shiareformistblog.wordpress.com/
and in partnership:https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/

What made me left schiism? Over a long time period, i became more and more suspicious about certain concepts like tatbir, swearing and slandering sahabiyyun and the khalifah. but what really helped me to leave 12er schiism was the lectures of sayyed fadlullah(ra), he had a big impact on me. when he has spoken about ghuluw, doubted the attack on fatimas house and that not all in nahjul balagha is authentic, i began my research and it didnt toke long to discover more and more questions before getting answers. during my time of research, i was hoping to get help from my shia brothers and published my results on facebook. i regret that quickly as they have made fast takfir on me and my critical views. i decided to search for other muslims who are on the research way like me and found a large group of shia reformists in london, other parts of UK and even in other countries. they supported me in my investigation and so i decided one day to leave the belief of the 12er shia sect. what really helped me was the meeting with scheikh ahmad al katib a ex 12er shia scholar from iraq. we became good friends and today i have regular meetings were scheikh katib is given me great lectures.


Thread title edited/improved by Admin

wa salam,

who is ahmad al katib and what are his beliefs? does he identify as shia just not a twelver?

also does he reside in the UK or Germany?
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: MuslimK on September 16, 2017, 11:37:40 AM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Link on September 16, 2017, 06:17:59 PM
Salam

The whole Quran is about leadership - proofs of that you can see for yourself: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/leadership-in-quran/

It doesn' swerve from the subject, aimed right at Ali and his family, the Quran continues discourse after discourse on this issue for all of humans to reflect about.

Evil is who take other then God as Master, Authority, and Ruler - to the extent they come towards hatred to God's chosen means of guidance and turn to that of the Jibt and Taghut.



Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 16, 2017, 07:56:36 PM
As Salam Aleikum,

Its nice to be hear. I got this site recommended by Agha Hassan Shemrani. My name is Kian and Im a ex Shia, born and rise in Germany. I was Shia my whole Life and left schiism a couple of years ago. I set it up few sites on facebook including 2 websites questioning and discussion shia faith.
FACEBOOK: English:https://www.facebook.com/ShiaReformist/
German:https://www.facebook.com/Progressivershiablog/
Website German: https://shiareformistblog.wordpress.com/
and in partnership:https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/

What made me left schiism? Over a long time period, i became more and more suspicious about certain concepts like tatbir, swearing and slandering sahabiyyun and the khalifah. but what really helped me to leave 12er schiism was the lectures of sayyed fadlullah(ra), he had a big impact on me. when he has spoken about ghuluw, doubted the attack on fatimas house and that not all in nahjul balagha is authentic, i began my research and it didnt toke long to discover more and more questions before getting answers. during my time of research, i was hoping to get help from my shia brothers and published my results on facebook. i regret that quickly as they have made fast takfir on me and my critical views. i decided to search for other muslims who are on the research way like me and found a large group of shia reformists in london, other parts of UK and even in other countries. they supported me in my investigation and so i decided one day to leave the belief of the 12er shia sect. what really helped me was the meeting with scheikh ahmad al katib a ex 12er shia scholar from iraq. we became good friends and today i have regular meetings were scheikh katib is given me great lectures.


Thread title edited/improved by Admin

wa salam,

who is ahmad al katib and what are his beliefs? does he identify as shia just not a twelver?

also does he reside in the UK or Germany?

Al Katib is his penname, he was an important Shia researcher and scholar. Interested in politics and spreading Tashayyu, he researched Imamah and the 12th Imam and discovered it was a myth. He never identifies as Sunni or Shia. He believes the people have a right to choose their own leaders through fair elections and consultation.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: confusedshia on September 17, 2017, 12:42:18 AM
As Salam Aleikum,

Its nice to be hear. I got this site recommended by Agha Hassan Shemrani. My name is Kian and Im a ex Shia, born and rise in Germany. I was Shia my whole Life and left schiism a couple of years ago. I set it up few sites on facebook including 2 websites questioning and discussion shia faith.
FACEBOOK: English:https://www.facebook.com/ShiaReformist/
German:https://www.facebook.com/Progressivershiablog/
Website German: https://shiareformistblog.wordpress.com/
and in partnership:https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/

What made me left schiism? Over a long time period, i became more and more suspicious about certain concepts like tatbir, swearing and slandering sahabiyyun and the khalifah. but what really helped me to leave 12er schiism was the lectures of sayyed fadlullah(ra), he had a big impact on me. when he has spoken about ghuluw, doubted the attack on fatimas house and that not all in nahjul balagha is authentic, i began my research and it didnt toke long to discover more and more questions before getting answers. during my time of research, i was hoping to get help from my shia brothers and published my results on facebook. i regret that quickly as they have made fast takfir on me and my critical views. i decided to search for other muslims who are on the research way like me and found a large group of shia reformists in london, other parts of UK and even in other countries. they supported me in my investigation and so i decided one day to leave the belief of the 12er shia sect. what really helped me was the meeting with scheikh ahmad al katib a ex 12er shia scholar from iraq. we became good friends and today i have regular meetings were scheikh katib is given me great lectures.


Thread title edited/improved by Admin

wa salam,

who is ahmad al katib and what are his beliefs? does he identify as shia just not a twelver?

also does he reside in the UK or Germany?

Al Katib is his penname, he was an important Shia researcher and scholar. Interested in politics and spreading Tashayyu, he researched Imamah and the 12th Imam and discovered it was a myth. He never identifies as Sunni or Shia. He believes the people have a right to choose their own leaders through fair elections and consultation.

Thanks. So what are his views on Abu Bakr and Umar?

Also, please excuse my ignorance but what is tashayyu?
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Rationalist on September 17, 2017, 04:56:09 AM
Common! You don't know what tashayyu means? How long were you a 12er Shia?
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: confusedshia on September 17, 2017, 05:13:53 AM
Common! You don't know what tashayyu means? How long were you a 12er Shia?

I don't come from a religious family and know very little about Shia Islam and Islam in general. I signed up here to help with my recent decision to carry out some sort of comparative analysis on the basic claims made by Shias and Sunnis. So no, I don't know what the word tashayyu means.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Rationalist on September 17, 2017, 05:59:36 AM
Its the Arabic way of saying Shia. Shia comes from word Tashayyu.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: confusedshia on September 17, 2017, 04:03:29 PM
Its the Arabic way of saying Shia. Shia comes from word Tashayyu.

Would you say Tashayyu is used to describe the ideology whilst Shia is used for its followers?
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Rationalist on September 17, 2017, 06:29:33 PM
Its the Arabic way of saying Shia. Shia comes from word Tashayyu.

Would you say Tashayyu is used to describe the ideology whilst Shia is used for its followers?

In the India and Pakistan area 12er are called Ahle Tashee. Also, some 12er call Sunni as Tasunnah. To be honest these terms did exist came in later to describe followers.

Many times 12ers Shia quote their imams proudly calling themselves as Rafidah. In their version the people who rejected Pharaoh were suppsoedly called Rafidah. When I open the Quran, it says the people associated themselves with the Pharaoh were the Shia.

"Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections (Shiites), depressing a small group among them: their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females: for he was indeed a maker of mischief." (28:4)


So calling oneself Ahle Sunnah and Tashayyu are all titled and do not mean anything in the day of judgement.
If you associate yourself with Ali and his family, but do not follow the basic pillars of Islam, then on the day of judgement you have no value.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Kian on September 23, 2017, 08:55:39 PM
Salam, I've seen your reformist site long ago. I also watch some vids on Al Katib's YT channel, he has done good research. Welcome.

wa aleikum salam

thats great to hear. indeed ahmad al kateb is a personal friend of me and a great researcher on the field of Shiism as well. he refuted aactaully everything in shiissm and he lives in london.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Kian on September 23, 2017, 08:57:24 PM
As Salam Aleikum,

Its nice to be hear. I got this site recommended by Agha Hassan Shemrani. My name is Kian and Im a ex Shia, born and rise in Germany. I was Shia my whole Life and left schiism a couple of years ago. I set it up few sites on facebook including 2 websites questioning and discussion shia faith.
FACEBOOK: English:https://www.facebook.com/ShiaReformist/
German:https://www.facebook.com/Progressivershiablog/
Website German: https://shiareformistblog.wordpress.com/
and in partnership:https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/

What made me left schiism? Over a long time period, i became more and more suspicious about certain concepts like tatbir, swearing and slandering sahabiyyun and the khalifah. but what really helped me to leave 12er schiism was the lectures of sayyed fadlullah(ra), he had a big impact on me. when he has spoken about ghuluw, doubted the attack on fatimas house and that not all in nahjul balagha is authentic, i began my research and it didnt toke long to discover more and more questions before getting answers. during my time of research, i was hoping to get help from my shia brothers and published my results on facebook. i regret that quickly as they have made fast takfir on me and my critical views. i decided to search for other muslims who are on the research way like me and found a large group of shia reformists in london, other parts of UK and even in other countries. they supported me in my investigation and so i decided one day to leave the belief of the 12er shia sect. what really helped me was the meeting with scheikh ahmad al katib a ex 12er shia scholar from iraq. we became good friends and today i have regular meetings were scheikh katib is given me great lectures.


Thread title edited/improved by Admin

wa salam,

who is ahmad al katib and what are his beliefs? does he identify as shia just not a twelver?

also does he reside in the UK or Germany?

Ahmad al Kateb is a ex 12er shia from karbala. he studied for decades in the sia hawzah of najaf and ghom and left the 12er sect completely. he is also a writer of more than 400 books and many books about the wrong belief of shias.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Kian on September 23, 2017, 08:58:40 PM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Link on September 24, 2017, 07:29:35 PM
The cursing to the transgressing people who hate God's light and those who channel it, hurts in the beginning and is a cause of turmoil, but you temper hate with discipline and it becomes a healing and a source of strength for emanates from the love of God's beautiful names, mainly the Navigators to the just city and Captains of the Ships of salvation.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 25, 2017, 11:51:23 PM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 25, 2017, 11:59:19 PM
As Salam Aleikum,

Its nice to be hear. I got this site recommended by Agha Hassan Shemrani. My name is Kian and Im a ex Shia, born and rise in Germany. I was Shia my whole Life and left schiism a couple of years ago. I set it up few sites on facebook including 2 websites questioning and discussion shia faith.
FACEBOOK: English:https://www.facebook.com/ShiaReformist/
German:https://www.facebook.com/Progressivershiablog/
Website German: https://shiareformistblog.wordpress.com/
and in partnership:https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/

What made me left schiism? Over a long time period, i became more and more suspicious about certain concepts like tatbir, swearing and slandering sahabiyyun and the khalifah. but what really helped me to leave 12er schiism was the lectures of sayyed fadlullah(ra), he had a big impact on me. when he has spoken about ghuluw, doubted the attack on fatimas house and that not all in nahjul balagha is authentic, i began my research and it didnt toke long to discover more and more questions before getting answers. during my time of research, i was hoping to get help from my shia brothers and published my results on facebook. i regret that quickly as they have made fast takfir on me and my critical views. i decided to search for other muslims who are on the research way like me and found a large group of shia reformists in london, other parts of UK and even in other countries. they supported me in my investigation and so i decided one day to leave the belief of the 12er shia sect. what really helped me was the meeting with scheikh ahmad al katib a ex 12er shia scholar from iraq. we became good friends and today i have regular meetings were scheikh katib is given me great lectures.


Thread title edited/improved by Admin

wa salam,

who is ahmad al katib and what are his beliefs? does he identify as shia just not a twelver?

also does he reside in the UK or Germany?

Al Katib is his penname, he was an important Shia researcher and scholar. Interested in politics and spreading Tashayyu, he researched Imamah and the 12th Imam and discovered it was a myth. He never identifies as Sunni or Shia. He believes the people have a right to choose their own leaders through fair elections and consultation.

If he believes that the people have a right to choose their own leaders through fair elections and consultation then where did he get this belief from? Saqifa or the Qoran?
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 26, 2017, 01:32:33 AM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 26, 2017, 11:37:28 AM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 26, 2017, 01:18:40 PM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 26, 2017, 01:26:02 PM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Link on September 26, 2017, 03:24:58 PM
Iceman, I wish what you said was true as no one hates and curses pious for being pious. But the hint of the believers face hate similar to the jealousy of Qabeel (Cain) with respect to Abel (Habeel),  when God accepts from the pious which the word of Taqwa is Ahlulbayt and that is manifested by rejecting all obeyed other than them, these people become insanely jealous and begin to hate the believers.   Had we love some non-chosen people and believe in some different set of leaders and transmissions that had nothing to do with believing chosen leaders after the Prophet, they would not have hated us.

But they wish to force us not even that much out of love of idols, but their envy, and they justify their envy through the love of idols and personality worship.

What their hearts conceal is darker still, they chose to believe in the dark magic and oppressive idol, over that of the authority of God and the reminder, so cursed indeed are the unjust people.


To not be fooled by outward acts of religion and towards God,  look past the Quran on the spears of the army of Mauwiya, look at them in the center and go in full force against it.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 26, 2017, 04:08:46 PM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

The Messenger of Allah said: "Loving ‘Ali is the sign of belief, and hating ‘Ali is the sign of hypocrisy."

Sunni references:

- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
- Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
- Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
- Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p185
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the companions used to say:

"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of ‘Ali."

Sunni references:

- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
- al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
- Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91

Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that: ‘Ali (ra) said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 27, 2017, 06:27:12 AM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

It's not an argument, we're describing facts here, your sect curses the just and sometimes praises the unjust. That's enough of a reason to not be a part of it. As for the subjective section of things, sure maybe the IDF are freedom fighters to some Zionist extremists but to the whole world, based on facts and evidence, they are terrorists. Similarly, the people you curse, based on facts and evidence are just and pious, the counter-evidence is weak, made up and doesn't stand when scrutinized.

So, based on this, no reason to be a part of such movement.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 27, 2017, 06:28:52 AM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Your sect has been accused of personality worship more than any other sect I've seen, in fact certain branches of your sect have openly practiced such worship.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 27, 2017, 06:33:08 AM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

See? Even the way you write gives hints of personality worship. For regular Muslims, Wala' & Bara' are associated with God Almighty, even the Prophet (saw). However, your version skips the most important elements of religion, all the way to certain family members of a chosen Messenger (saw). I sense your sect misses the point of this entire religion, ignores the universality of the messages and reduces itself to a political party backing an Arab tribe, much similar to times of Jahiliyyah.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 27, 2017, 06:38:02 AM
Iceman, I wish what you said was true as no one hates and curses pious for being pious. But the hint of the believers face hate similar to the jealousy of Qabeel (Cain) with respect to Abel (Habeel),  when God accepts from the pious which the word of Taqwa is Ahlulbayt and that is manifested by rejecting all obeyed other than them, these people become insanely jealous and begin to hate the believers.   Had we love some non-chosen people and believe in some different set of leaders and transmissions that had nothing to do with believing chosen leaders after the Prophet, they would not have hated us.

But they wish to force us not even that much out of love of idols, but their envy, and they justify their envy through the love of idols and personality worship.

What their hearts conceal is darker still, they chose to believe in the dark magic and oppressive idol, over that of the authority of God and the reminder, so cursed indeed are the unjust people.


To not be fooled by outward acts of religion and towards God,  look past the Quran on the spears of the army of Mauwiya, look at them in the center and go in full force against it.


You usually hallucinate, no one is jealous of your sect, the sect's existence is actually a mockery of faith, we're quite outraged that in the 21st century people still buy that failed narrative that has no legitimate historical sources to back it.

I add, people detest your sect as it is a sect that curses the pious and just, not because you love the family members of the Prophet (saw). Otherwise, most Sunnies who love those family members would be frowned upon.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 27, 2017, 06:42:19 AM

The Messenger of Allah said: "Loving ‘Ali is the sign of belief, and hating ‘Ali is the sign of hypocrisy."

Sunni references:

- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
- Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
- Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
- Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p185
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the companions used to say:

"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of ‘Ali."

Sunni references:

- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
- al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
- Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91

Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that: ‘Ali (ra) said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141

You've cornered yourself there. The entire issue between the Muslims and this sect of yours is your complete inability to understand religious texts.

The Prophet (saw) also said: "The sign of Belief is to love the Ansar, and the sign of hypocrisy is to hate the Ansar."

Now the heads of the Ansar gathered in Saqifah and tried to appoint a leader from among them, do you love or hate the Ansar?
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Link on September 27, 2017, 12:24:16 PM
Faith has to do with signs of God "For they do not deny you but the unjust deny the signs of God".

You with a deep hatred, hate the family of Mohammad as "Ayatallah".
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: MuslimK on September 27, 2017, 01:52:22 PM
A sect that is obsessed too much with cursing is not from Allah.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/09/15/lanat/
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 27, 2017, 07:55:56 PM
A sect that is obsessed too much with cursing is not from Allah.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/09/15/lanat/

What is and isn't from Allah is not for you or us to decide. It's got nothing to do with too much or too little. The boundaries and limits are not for you or us to lay down.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 27, 2017, 08:21:47 PM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

It's not an argument, we're describing facts here, your sect curses the just and sometimes praises the unjust. That's enough of a reason to not be a part of it. As for the subjective section of things, sure maybe the IDF are freedom fighters to some Zionist extremists but to the whole world, based on facts and evidence, they are terrorists. Similarly, the people you curse, based on facts and evidence are just and pious, the counter-evidence is weak, made up and doesn't stand when scrutinized.

So, based on this, no reason to be a part of such movement.

Tell me where does our sect curse the just and sometimes praise the unjust? Give me an example. As far as freedom fighters and terrorists are concerned I just gave you an example of difference in opinion in general.

The people we hate and curse are those who oppose and have gone against the Ahle Bayth for one thing or another. Basically their enemies, opponents and rivals.

The people you speak about if you consider them just and pious throughout and all the way from the beginning till the very end is your opinion and yours alone.

And if you consider the counter evidence to be weak that please feel free to bring it forward and explain. But in the meantime lets stick to the thread and point of discussion for the time being.

The chap concerned left the Shia faith due to hate and cursing. I have already put forward that Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) also hate and curse.  And another thing, alot of Sunis also hate, envy, feel bitter, curse and abuse the Shias and always have.

So what's the difference? The Shias hate and curse the enemies, opponents and rivals of the Ahle Bayth and certain Sunis hate, curse, envy and sometimes even abuse, humiliate, insult and name calling the Shias.

So this chap really hasn't done himself any favours by leaving one side and joining the other.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 27, 2017, 08:38:55 PM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Your sect has been accused of personality worship more than any other sect I've seen, in fact certain branches of your sect have openly practiced such worship.

Our sect and we have been accused of many things let alone what you mention. A lot of accusations have been brought against us and a lot of allegations thrown at us. This has been going on for ages and nothing had been proven till yet. We have never been found guilty or charged with anything through any religious or civil court or judiciary.

I will speak about who and what we are in a separate thread. But one thing I will clearly say is that we are blessed with the privilege that we can openly and clearly speak about who and what we are. Can the others? Can you?

We are accused throughout and constantly but we refrain from doing that. We have been victimised but we do not victimise. We are considered Kafir/Mushrik by some but we do not consider others as such. Some justify our killing and deem it permissible but we don't. This is our school of thought and who we are.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 27, 2017, 11:11:24 PM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

See? Even the way you write gives hints of personality worship. For regular Muslims, Wala' & Bara' are associated with God Almighty, even the Prophet (saw). However, your version skips the most important elements of religion, all the way to certain family members of a chosen Messenger (saw). I sense your sect misses the point of this entire religion, ignores the universality of the messages and reduces itself to a political party backing an Arab tribe, much similar to times of Jahiliyyah.

We do not personality worship but we only praise and honour those whom Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) praise and honour. And the verses, Mobahila and Tat'heer, are more than enough to know and understand those who Allah purified and gave the seal of approval.

Also the Prophet's (s) well known and accepted Hadith that he left two weighty things 'WEIGHTY' behind for the Ummah the Sahaba to hold on to. We hold on to both, not just one (Qoran) but both. What did the Ummah do? What did the companions do? Did they hold on to and keep together the two weighty things?

The book of principles, rules and regulations, the way of life was there and left behind to be held on to. And also the people (Ahle Bayth) who were chosen, perfected, purified and selected to govern the Ummah and to take care of their affairs were also there and left behind to be held on to.

But we held on to the two WEIGHTY things and are still holding on to them and keeping them together and side by side.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 27, 2017, 11:24:24 PM

The Messenger of Allah said: "Loving ‘Ali is the sign of belief, and hating ‘Ali is the sign of hypocrisy."

Sunni references:

- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
- Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
- Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
- Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p185
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the companions used to say:

"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of ‘Ali."

Sunni references:

- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
- al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
- Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91

Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that: ‘Ali (ra) said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141

You've cornered yourself there. The entire issue between the Muslims and this sect of yours is your complete inability to understand religious texts.

The Prophet (saw) also said: "The sign of Belief is to love the Ansar, and the sign of hypocrisy is to hate the Ansar."

Now the heads of the Ansar gathered in Saqifah and tried to appoint a leader from among them, do you love or hate the Ansar?

The Hadith you've mentioned where is it and what is the source? The one I've mentioned is widely accepted by the vast majority of the Muslims apart from those who hold grudge against Ali. Love the Ansaar doesn't mean accept and take what ever they say and do.

Why did they gather in Saqifa and what was the point when the Messenger (s) had already dealt with the matter and left two WEIGHTY things behind for the Ummah to hold on to, to keep together and not to separate? Who were better than the Ahle Bayth and who was more better and worthy than Ali to govern?

The following verse;
"take what the messenger gives you and abstain from what he forbids you."

Did they (Ummah/Sahaba) take what the Prophet (s) gave them (the two weighty things)? Neither did they and nor have you.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 28, 2017, 12:30:36 AM
A sect that is obsessed too much with cursing is not from Allah.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/09/15/lanat/

What is and isn't from Allah is not for you or us to decide. It's got nothing to do with too much or too little. The boundaries and limits are not for you or us to lay down.

Yes, it's in fact for every single one of us to find-out what is from God and worship him based on this.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 28, 2017, 12:35:45 AM

Tell me where does our sect curse the just and sometimes praise the unjust? Give me an example. As far as freedom fighters and terrorists are concerned I just gave you an example of difference in opinion in general.

The people we hate and curse are those who oppose and have gone against the Ahle Bayth for one thing or another. Basically their enemies, opponents and rivals.

The people you speak about if you consider them just and pious throughout and all the way from the beginning till the very end is your opinion and yours alone.

And if you consider the counter evidence to be weak that please feel free to bring it forward and explain. But in the meantime lets stick to the thread and point of discussion for the time being.

The chap concerned left the Shia faith due to hate and cursing. I have already put forward that Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) also hate and curse.  And another thing, alot of Sunis also hate, envy, feel bitter, curse and abuse the Shias and always have.

So what's the difference? The Shias hate and curse the enemies, opponents and rivals of the Ahle Bayth and certain Sunis hate, curse, envy and sometimes even abuse, humiliate, insult and name calling the Shias.

So this chap really hasn't done himself any favours by leaving one side and joining the other.

You curse the just Abu Bakr and praise the unjust Mukhtar.

You yourselves have gone against Ahlul-Bayt according to 90% of Muslims and every single sect except your own. We're not talking about opinions here, we're talking about legitimate evidence versus weak positions adopted by a tiny sect with virtually no sources.

As for him leaving due to hatred and curses, that's because your sect plastered the curses all over their books, every time they hear their invisible leader's name they're like "God send peace on him, hasten his appearance and curse his enemies." God and his Prophet (saw) may have cursed specific individuals, yet most of the Qur'an is merciful, cursing is not a point of emphasis as it is in your sect a tradition.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 28, 2017, 12:41:32 AM

Our sect and we have been accused of many things let alone what you mention. A lot of accusations have been brought against us and a lot of allegations thrown at us. This has been going on for ages and nothing had been proven till yet. We have never been found guilty or charged with anything through any religious or civil court or judiciary.

I will speak about who and what we are in a separate thread. But one thing I will clearly say is that we are blessed with the privilege that we can openly and clearly speak about who and what we are. Can the others? Can you?

We are accused throughout and constantly but we refrain from doing that. We have been victimised but we do not victimise. We are considered Kafir/Mushrik by some but we do not consider others as such. Some justify our killing and deem it permissible but we don't. This is our school of thought and who we are.

Are you sure there's no evidence? If anything, there's big evidence. When a Shia leader says Imams can control universal atoms, when you say human being are in control of manipulating the physical world, your books filled with stories of this nature, are your opponents accusing from thin air or based on evidence? When a few groups from the Shia such as Saba'iyyah or `Alawites literally worshiped their Imams, was this an accusation from thin air? What extremism could have led to this I wonder?

The worst part is, your sect has this strategy of accusing their opponents with their own flaws, I wonder what Sunni group said Aba Bakr controlled the universe? What Sunni group openly worshiped him?

As for you not considering others as Kouffar, this is a small present:

In Al-Kafi, in the third hadith in the Chapter of Those that Die without an Imam of Guidance, we find Ja’afar Al-Sadiq being asked about the hadith of the Prophet – peace be upon him – “He who dies without knowing his Imam dies a death of jahiliyyah.” His companion asked about the type of jahiliyyah this falls under. Ja’afar then responded, “It is a jahiliyyah of disbelief, hypocrisy, and misguidance.”

Al-Majlisi graded the hadith as authentic in Mir’aat Al-Uqool 4/221.

That's our leader being a Takfiri.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 28, 2017, 12:44:03 AM
Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

See? Even the way you write gives hints of personality worship. For regular Muslims, Wala' & Bara' are associated with God Almighty, even the Prophet (saw). However, your version skips the most important elements of religion, all the way to certain family members of a chosen Messenger (saw). I sense your sect misses the point of this entire religion, ignores the universality of the messages and reduces itself to a political party backing an Arab tribe, much similar to times of Jahiliyyah.

We do not personality worship but we only praise and honour those whom Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) praise and honour. And the verses, Mobahila and Tat'heer, are more than enough to know and understand those who Allah purified and gave the seal of approval.

Also the Prophet's (s) well known and accepted Hadith that he left two weighty things 'WEIGHTY' behind for the Ummah the Sahaba to hold on to. We hold on to both, not just one (Qoran) but both. What did the Ummah do? What did the companions do? Did they hold on to and keep together the two weighty things?

The book of principles, rules and regulations, the way of life was there and left behind to be held on to. And also the people (Ahle Bayth) who were chosen, perfected, purified and selected to govern the Ummah and to take care of their affairs were also there and left behind to be held on to.

But we held on to the two WEIGHTY things and are still holding on to them and keeping them together and side by side.


Look this cherry picking with Mubahal and ignorance of Arabic related to Tathir, this stuff is old and has been refuted, you actually have NO argument. Debate any of these and see what happens. (Feel free to open topics)
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hani on September 28, 2017, 12:50:57 AM

The Hadith you've mentioned where is it and what is the source? The one I've mentioned is widely accepted by the vast majority of the Muslims apart from those who hold grudge against Ali. Love the Ansaar doesn't mean accept and take what ever they say and do.

Why did they gather in Saqifa and what was the point when the Messenger (s) had already dealt with the matter and left two WEIGHTY things behind for the Ummah to hold on to, to keep together and not to separate? Who were better than the Ahle Bayth and who was more better and worthy than Ali to govern?

The following verse;
"take what the messenger gives you and abstain from what he forbids you."

Did they (Ummah/Sahaba) take what the Prophet (s) gave them (the two weighty things)? Neither did they and nor have you.

The Hadith of the Ansar I gave you is also widely accepted and narrated in a ton of books. Here's a link to Bukhari:
http://muslimway.org/prophet-muhammad/369-Sahih-Bukhari/Merits-of-the-Helpers-in-Madinah-Ansaar/5157-the-prophet-said-qthe-sign-of-belief-is-to-love-the-ansar-and-the-sign-of-hypocrisy-is-to-hate-the

What're you going to do now? Of course, due to your weakness of understanding, you created a conflict, you bashed two narrations against eachother.

I can say likewise:

"Loving `Ali doesn't mean to accept and take what ever he does."

Secondly, who told you the Prophet (saw) dealt with the issue with Thaqalayn? Do you understand what the word Thaqal means? Weighty and burdensome? A responsibility of those two elements was transferred to us but it was no appointment. If he (saw) told us to take care of his family, that doesn't mean he appointed them as leaders.

Why would you even quote Thaqalayn? Where does it mention `Ali?

The Prophet (saw) narrated in the authentic that he'd travel through any valley the Ansar travel through, have you followed the Ansar in Saqifah?

Show us how you understand religious texts without cherry picking and creating conflict.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Hadrami on September 28, 2017, 04:25:13 AM
But we held on to the two WEIGHTY things and are still holding on to them and keeping them together and side by side.
how? the imam is hiding and many of your scholars believe he hide the real mushaf with him too 😂😂
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 28, 2017, 02:31:40 PM
A sect that is obsessed too much with cursing is not from Allah.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/09/15/lanat/

What is and isn't from Allah is not for you or us to decide. It's got nothing to do with too much or too little. The boundaries and limits are not for you or us to lay down.

Yes, it's in fact for every single one of us to find-out what is from God and worship him based on this.

So why don't we all do that or why aren't we all doing that? Why do you mitigate certain matters and cause chaos and confusion about them? Allah's (s) decisions, sayings and doings are not cherry picking and shouldn't be subject to mitigation or confusion.

The incidents and verses concerning Mobahila and Tat'heer are there for those who have sense and logic and see things through wisdom and intellect. These are the ones who have been chosen and selected by Allah (s).

And they are the Ulul Amre and the Wali alongside Allah (s) and his Messenger (s). These are the third in line in authority according to the sequence put down by Allah (s). What is difficult to understand here apart from the fact that it blows Saqifa straight out of the window.

There is guidance (hidaya) from Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) but there is a condition and that is 'for only those who seek it'. Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) would never leave the Ummah without a guide and in disarray.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 28, 2017, 05:26:41 PM

The Hadith you've mentioned where is it and what is the source? The one I've mentioned is widely accepted by the vast majority of the Muslims apart from those who hold grudge against Ali. Love the Ansaar doesn't mean accept and take what ever they say and do.

Why did they gather in Saqifa and what was the point when the Messenger (s) had already dealt with the matter and left two WEIGHTY things behind for the Ummah to hold on to, to keep together and not to separate? Who were better than the Ahle Bayth and who was more better and worthy than Ali to govern?

The following verse;
"take what the messenger gives you and abstain from what he forbids you."

Did they (Ummah/Sahaba) take what the Prophet (s) gave them (the two weighty things)? Neither did they and nor have you.

The Hadith of the Ansar I gave you is also widely accepted and narrated in a ton of books. Here's a link to Bukhari:
http://muslimway.org/prophet-muhammad/369-Sahih-Bukhari/Merits-of-the-Helpers-in-Madinah-Ansaar/5157-the-prophet-said-qthe-sign-of-belief-is-to-love-the-ansar-and-the-sign-of-hypocrisy-is-to-hate-the

What're you going to do now? Of course, due to your weakness of understanding, you created a conflict, you bashed two narrations against eachother.

I can say likewise:

"Loving `Ali doesn't mean to accept and take what ever he does."

Secondly, who told you the Prophet (saw) dealt with the issue with Thaqalayn? Do you understand what the word Thaqal means? Weighty and burdensome? A responsibility of those two elements was transferred to us but it was no appointment. If he (saw) told us to take care of his family, that doesn't mean he appointed them as leaders.

Why would you even quote Thaqalayn? Where does it mention `Ali?

The Prophet (saw) narrated in the authentic that he'd travel through any valley the Ansar travel through, have you followed the Ansar in Saqifah?

Show us how you understand religious texts without cherry picking and creating conflict.

The Hadith you gave me is widely accepted. Well it may be now just and only to justify and somewhat legitimise Saqifa but history tells us different. Here is a very important piece of hidtory;

. After the demise of the Prophet (s), Ansar gathered in Saqifa before everybody else goes there, announcing Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a well-reputed companion of the Prophet (s) and the head of Khazraj as their candidate for caliphate. However, it was opposed by some Muhajirun who took caliphate to be their right. Each group mentioned their virtues and intimacy with the Prophet (s), considering itself to deserve the occupation of caliphate more than the other one.

When Ansar failed to seize the power, they suggested that they share it with the Muhajirun. But this strategy failed too, and when Muhajirun overtook the power, Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a candidate for caliphate did not give up and threatened to launch a battle against Muhajirun.
 
Will talk about this further.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 28, 2017, 06:04:13 PM

The Hadith you've mentioned where is it and what is the source? The one I've mentioned is widely accepted by the vast majority of the Muslims apart from those who hold grudge against Ali. Love the Ansaar doesn't mean accept and take what ever they say and do.

Why did they gather in Saqifa and what was the point when the Messenger (s) had already dealt with the matter and left two WEIGHTY things behind for the Ummah to hold on to, to keep together and not to separate? Who were better than the Ahle Bayth and who was more better and worthy than Ali to govern?

The following verse;
"take what the messenger gives you and abstain from what he forbids you."

Did they (Ummah/Sahaba) take what the Prophet (s) gave them (the two weighty things)? Neither did they and nor have you.

The Hadith of the Ansar I gave you is also widely accepted and narrated in a ton of books. Here's a link to Bukhari:
http://muslimway.org/prophet-muhammad/369-Sahih-Bukhari/Merits-of-the-Helpers-in-Madinah-Ansaar/5157-the-prophet-said-qthe-sign-of-belief-is-to-love-the-ansar-and-the-sign-of-hypocrisy-is-to-hate-the

What're you going to do now? Of course, due to your weakness of understanding, you created a conflict, you bashed two narrations against eachother.

I can say likewise:

"Loving `Ali doesn't mean to accept and take what ever he does."

Secondly, who told you the Prophet (saw) dealt with the issue with Thaqalayn? Do you understand what the word Thaqal means? Weighty and burdensome? A responsibility of those two elements was transferred to us but it was no appointment. If he (saw) told us to take care of his family, that doesn't mean he appointed them as leaders.

Why would you even quote Thaqalayn? Where does it mention `Ali?

The Prophet (saw) narrated in the authentic that he'd travel through any valley the Ansar travel through, have you followed the Ansar in Saqifah?

Show us how you understand religious texts without cherry picking and creating conflict.

The Hadith you gave me is widely accepted. Well it may be now just and only to justify and somewhat legitimise Saqifa but history tells us different. Here is a very important piece of hidtory;

. After the demise of the Prophet (s), Ansar gathered in Saqifa before everybody else goes there, announcing Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a well-reputed companion of the Prophet (s) and the head of Khazraj as their candidate for caliphate. However, it was opposed by some Muhajirun who took caliphate to be their right. Each group mentioned their virtues and intimacy with the Prophet (s), considering itself to deserve the occupation of caliphate more than the other one.

When Ansar failed to seize the power, they suggested that they share it with the Muhajirun. But this strategy failed too, and when Muhajirun overtook the power, Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a candidate for caliphate did not give up and threatened to launch a battle against Muhajirun.
 
Will talk about this further.

Now tell me did the Muhajirun love and follow the Ansaar? Surely they must have been familiar with the Hadith you mentioned and put forward to strengthen your argument. When Abu Baqr and Omar were told about the Ansaar gathering in Saqifa they both left the Prophet's (s) funeral procession and quickly fled to Saqifa. What, to show their love for the Ansaar and to follow them? Did they not rush to stop and oppose the Ansaar?

I don't think it is your weakness of understanding but I think it is just your deliberate and desperate attempt to justify and legitimise the decision reached in Saqifa. But the decision reached wasn't out of love for the Ansaar and in respect for this Hadith you mention.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Farid on September 28, 2017, 06:29:45 PM
Brothers, stop derailing the thread. If you want to discuss Ansar or Saqeeda, or anything unrelated to brother Kian's conversion, then please do it in another thread.

Welcome aboard iceman.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: iceman on September 28, 2017, 08:43:09 PM
Brothers, stop derailing the thread. If you want to discuss Ansar or Saqeeda, or anything unrelated to brother Kian's conversion, then please do it in another thread.

Welcome aboard iceman.

Sounds fair. Agreed!
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: T110 on May 06, 2019, 09:24:07 AM
The Hadith of the Ansar I gave you is also widely accepted and narrated in a ton of books. Here's a link to Bukhari:
http://muslimway.org/prophet-muhammad/369-Sahih-Bukhari/Merits-of-the-Helpers-in-Madinah-Ansaar/5157-the-prophet-said-qthe-sign-of-belief-is-to-love-the-ansar-and-the-sign-of-hypocrisy-is-to-hate-the

What're you going to do now? Of course, due to your weakness of understanding, you created a conflict, you bashed two narrations against eachother.

I can say likewise:

"Loving `Ali doesn't mean to accept and take what ever he does."

Secondly, who told you the Prophet (saw) dealt with the issue with Thaqalayn? Do you understand what the word Thaqal means? Weighty and burdensome? A responsibility of those two elements was transferred to us but it was no appointment. If he (saw) told us to take care of his family, that doesn't mean he appointed them as leaders.

Why would you even quote Thaqalayn? Where does it mention `Ali?

The Prophet (saw) narrated in the authentic that he'd travel through any valley the Ansar travel through, have you followed the Ansar in Saqifah?

Show us how you understand religious texts without cherry picking and creating conflict.


The Hadith you gave me is widely accepted. Well it may be now just and only to justify and somewhat legitimise Saqifa but history tells us different. Here is a very important piece of hidtory;

. After the demise of the Prophet (s), Ansar gathered in Saqifa before everybody else goes there, announcing Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a well-reputed companion of the Prophet (s) and the head of Khazraj as their candidate for caliphate. However, it was opposed by some Muhajirun who took caliphate to be their right. Each group mentioned their virtues and intimacy with the Prophet (s), considering itself to deserve the occupation of caliphate more than the other one.

When Ansar failed to seize the power, they suggested that they share it with the Muhajirun. But this strategy failed too, and when Muhajirun overtook the power, Sa'd b. 'Ubada who was a candidate for caliphate did not give up and threatened to launch a battle against Muhajirun.
 
Will talk about this further.

hahahaha this is what a bit of critical thinking does to baseless arguments. Excellent work nonetheless but lest not forget these poor guys are instructed by their scholars to not give precedence to logic when it comes to their deen. I pity them at times.
Title: Re: salam - why I left Shia sect
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 06, 2019, 01:32:20 PM
hahahaha this is what a bit of critical thinking does to baseless arguments. Excellent work nonetheless but lest not forget these poor guys are instructed by their scholars to not give precedence to logic when it comes to their deen. I pity them at times.
iceman is known for making foolish and stupid arguments, that’s why we don’t take his arguments seriously, and we thought Shias too felt the same.

Iceman should first read Quran and understand it properly. Abū bakr(as) and Umar(as) not following Ansar blindly is their understanding of Quran 4:59... in case of dispute Allah and his  Prophet(saws) are to be referred, so did Abubakr(as) in saqifa.