salam - why I left Shia sect

[iceman]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

[iceman]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

[Link]

Iceman, I wish what you said was true as no one hates and curses pious for being pious. But the hint of the believers face hate similar to the jealousy of Qabeel (Cain) with respect to Abel (Habeel),  when God accepts from the pious which the word of Taqwa is Ahlulbayt and that is manifested by rejecting all obeyed other than them, these people become insanely jealous and begin to hate the believers.   Had we love some non-chosen people and believe in some different set of leaders and transmissions that had nothing to do with believing chosen leaders after the Prophet, they would not have hated us.

But they wish to force us not even that much out of love of idols, but their envy, and they justify their envy through the love of idols and personality worship.

What their hearts conceal is darker still, they chose to believe in the dark magic and oppressive idol, over that of the authority of God and the reminder, so cursed indeed are the unjust people.


To not be fooled by outward acts of religion and towards God,  look past the Quran on the spears of the army of Mauwiya, look at them in the center and go in full force against it.

[iceman]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

The Messenger of Allah said: "Loving ‘Ali is the sign of belief, and hating ‘Ali is the sign of hypocrisy."

Sunni references:

- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
- Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
- Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
- Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p185
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the companions used to say:

"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of ‘Ali."

Sunni references:

- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
- al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
- Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91

Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that: ‘Ali (ra) said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141

[Hani]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

It's not an argument, we're describing facts here, your sect curses the just and sometimes praises the unjust. That's enough of a reason to not be a part of it. As for the subjective section of things, sure maybe the IDF are freedom fighters to some Zionist extremists but to the whole world, based on facts and evidence, they are terrorists. Similarly, the people you curse, based on facts and evidence are just and pious, the counter-evidence is weak, made up and doesn't stand when scrutinized.

So, based on this, no reason to be a part of such movement.

[Hani]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Your sect has been accused of personality worship more than any other sect I've seen, in fact certain branches of your sect have openly practiced such worship.

[Hani]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

See? Even the way you write gives hints of personality worship. For regular Muslims, Wala' & Bara' are associated with God Almighty, even the Prophet (saw). However, your version skips the most important elements of religion, all the way to certain family members of a chosen Messenger (saw). I sense your sect misses the point of this entire religion, ignores the universality of the messages and reduces itself to a political party backing an Arab tribe, much similar to times of Jahiliyyah.

[Hani]

Iceman, I wish what you said was true as no one hates and curses pious for being pious. But the hint of the believers face hate similar to the jealousy of Qabeel (Cain) with respect to Abel (Habeel),  when God accepts from the pious which the word of Taqwa is Ahlulbayt and that is manifested by rejecting all obeyed other than them, these people become insanely jealous and begin to hate the believers.   Had we love some non-chosen people and believe in some different set of leaders and transmissions that had nothing to do with believing chosen leaders after the Prophet, they would not have hated us.

But they wish to force us not even that much out of love of idols, but their envy, and they justify their envy through the love of idols and personality worship.

What their hearts conceal is darker still, they chose to believe in the dark magic and oppressive idol, over that of the authority of God and the reminder, so cursed indeed are the unjust people.


To not be fooled by outward acts of religion and towards God,  look past the Quran on the spears of the army of Mauwiya, look at them in the center and go in full force against it.

You usually hallucinate, no one is jealous of your sect, the sect's existence is actually a mockery of faith, we're quite outraged that in the 21st century people still buy that failed narrative that has no legitimate historical sources to back it.

I add, people detest your sect as it is a sect that curses the pious and just, not because you love the family members of the Prophet (saw). Otherwise, most Sunnies who love those family members would be frowned upon.

[Hani]

The Messenger of Allah said: "Loving ‘Ali is the sign of belief, and hating ‘Ali is the sign of hypocrisy."

Sunni references:

- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
- Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
- Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
- Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p185
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the companions used to say:

"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of ‘Ali."

Sunni references:

- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
- al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
- Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91

Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that: ‘Ali (ra) said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141

You've cornered yourself there. The entire issue between the Muslims and this sect of yours is your complete inability to understand religious texts.

The Prophet (saw) also said: "The sign of Belief is to love the Ansar, and the sign of hypocrisy is to hate the Ansar."

Now the heads of the Ansar gathered in Saqifah and tried to appoint a leader from among them, do you love or hate the Ansar?

[Link]

Faith has to do with signs of God "For they do not deny you but the unjust deny the signs of God".

You with a deep hatred, hate the family of Mohammad as "Ayatallah".

[MuslimK]

A sect that is obsessed too much with cursing is not from Allah.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/09/15/lanat/

[iceman]

A sect that is obsessed too much with cursing is not from Allah.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/09/15/lanat/

What is and isn't from Allah is not for you or us to decide. It's got nothing to do with too much or too little. The boundaries and limits are not for you or us to lay down.

[iceman]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

It's not an argument, we're describing facts here, your sect curses the just and sometimes praises the unjust. That's enough of a reason to not be a part of it. As for the subjective section of things, sure maybe the IDF are freedom fighters to some Zionist extremists but to the whole world, based on facts and evidence, they are terrorists. Similarly, the people you curse, based on facts and evidence are just and pious, the counter-evidence is weak, made up and doesn't stand when scrutinized.

So, based on this, no reason to be a part of such movement.

Tell me where does our sect curse the just and sometimes praise the unjust? Give me an example. As far as freedom fighters and terrorists are concerned I just gave you an example of difference in opinion in general.

The people we hate and curse are those who oppose and have gone against the Ahle Bayth for one thing or another. Basically their enemies, opponents and rivals.

The people you speak about if you consider them just and pious throughout and all the way from the beginning till the very end is your opinion and yours alone.

And if you consider the counter evidence to be weak that please feel free to bring it forward and explain. But in the meantime lets stick to the thread and point of discussion for the time being.

The chap concerned left the Shia faith due to hate and cursing. I have already put forward that Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) also hate and curse.  And another thing, alot of Sunis also hate, envy, feel bitter, curse and abuse the Shias and always have.

So what's the difference? The Shias hate and curse the enemies, opponents and rivals of the Ahle Bayth and certain Sunis hate, curse, envy and sometimes even abuse, humiliate, insult and name calling the Shias.

So this chap really hasn't done himself any favours by leaving one side and joining the other.

[iceman]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Your sect has been accused of personality worship more than any other sect I've seen, in fact certain branches of your sect have openly practiced such worship.

Our sect and we have been accused of many things let alone what you mention. A lot of accusations have been brought against us and a lot of allegations thrown at us. This has been going on for ages and nothing had been proven till yet. We have never been found guilty or charged with anything through any religious or civil court or judiciary.

I will speak about who and what we are in a separate thread. But one thing I will clearly say is that we are blessed with the privilege that we can openly and clearly speak about who and what we are. Can the others? Can you?

We are accused throughout and constantly but we refrain from doing that. We have been victimised but we do not victimise. We are considered Kafir/Mushrik by some but we do not consider others as such. Some justify our killing and deem it permissible but we don't. This is our school of thought and who we are.

[iceman]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

See? Even the way you write gives hints of personality worship. For regular Muslims, Wala' & Bara' are associated with God Almighty, even the Prophet (saw). However, your version skips the most important elements of religion, all the way to certain family members of a chosen Messenger (saw). I sense your sect misses the point of this entire religion, ignores the universality of the messages and reduces itself to a political party backing an Arab tribe, much similar to times of Jahiliyyah.

We do not personality worship but we only praise and honour those whom Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) praise and honour. And the verses, Mobahila and Tat'heer, are more than enough to know and understand those who Allah purified and gave the seal of approval.

Also the Prophet's (s) well known and accepted Hadith that he left two weighty things 'WEIGHTY' behind for the Ummah the Sahaba to hold on to. We hold on to both, not just one (Qoran) but both. What did the Ummah do? What did the companions do? Did they hold on to and keep together the two weighty things?

The book of principles, rules and regulations, the way of life was there and left behind to be held on to. And also the people (Ahle Bayth) who were chosen, perfected, purified and selected to govern the Ummah and to take care of their affairs were also there and left behind to be held on to.

But we held on to the two WEIGHTY things and are still holding on to them and keeping them together and side by side.

[iceman]

The Messenger of Allah said: "Loving ‘Ali is the sign of belief, and hating ‘Ali is the sign of hypocrisy."

Sunni references:

- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
- Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
- Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
- Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p185
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the companions used to say:

"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of ‘Ali."

Sunni references:

- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
- al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
- Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91

Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that: ‘Ali (ra) said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141

You've cornered yourself there. The entire issue between the Muslims and this sect of yours is your complete inability to understand religious texts.

The Prophet (saw) also said: "The sign of Belief is to love the Ansar, and the sign of hypocrisy is to hate the Ansar."

Now the heads of the Ansar gathered in Saqifah and tried to appoint a leader from among them, do you love or hate the Ansar?

The Hadith you've mentioned where is it and what is the source? The one I've mentioned is widely accepted by the vast majority of the Muslims apart from those who hold grudge against Ali. Love the Ansaar doesn't mean accept and take what ever they say and do.

Why did they gather in Saqifa and what was the point when the Messenger (s) had already dealt with the matter and left two WEIGHTY things behind for the Ummah to hold on to, to keep together and not to separate? Who were better than the Ahle Bayth and who was more better and worthy than Ali to govern?

The following verse;
"take what the messenger gives you and abstain from what he forbids you."

Did they (Ummah/Sahaba) take what the Prophet (s) gave them (the two weighty things)? Neither did they and nor have you.

[Hani]

A sect that is obsessed too much with cursing is not from Allah.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/09/15/lanat/

What is and isn't from Allah is not for you or us to decide. It's got nothing to do with too much or too little. The boundaries and limits are not for you or us to lay down.

Yes, it's in fact for every single one of us to find-out what is from God and worship him based on this.

[Hani]

Tell me where does our sect curse the just and sometimes praise the unjust? Give me an example. As far as freedom fighters and terrorists are concerned I just gave you an example of difference in opinion in general.

The people we hate and curse are those who oppose and have gone against the Ahle Bayth for one thing or another. Basically their enemies, opponents and rivals.

The people you speak about if you consider them just and pious throughout and all the way from the beginning till the very end is your opinion and yours alone.

And if you consider the counter evidence to be weak that please feel free to bring it forward and explain. But in the meantime lets stick to the thread and point of discussion for the time being.

The chap concerned left the Shia faith due to hate and cursing. I have already put forward that Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) also hate and curse.  And another thing, alot of Sunis also hate, envy, feel bitter, curse and abuse the Shias and always have.

So what's the difference? The Shias hate and curse the enemies, opponents and rivals of the Ahle Bayth and certain Sunis hate, curse, envy and sometimes even abuse, humiliate, insult and name calling the Shias.

So this chap really hasn't done himself any favours by leaving one side and joining the other.

You curse the just Abu Bakr and praise the unjust Mukhtar.

You yourselves have gone against Ahlul-Bayt according to 90% of Muslims and every single sect except your own. We're not talking about opinions here, we're talking about legitimate evidence versus weak positions adopted by a tiny sect with virtually no sources.

As for him leaving due to hatred and curses, that's because your sect plastered the curses all over their books, every time they hear their invisible leader's name they're like "God send peace on him, hasten his appearance and curse his enemies." God and his Prophet (saw) may have cursed specific individuals, yet most of the Qur'an is merciful, cursing is not a point of emphasis as it is in your sect a tradition.

[Hani]

Our sect and we have been accused of many things let alone what you mention. A lot of accusations have been brought against us and a lot of allegations thrown at us. This has been going on for ages and nothing had been proven till yet. We have never been found guilty or charged with anything through any religious or civil court or judiciary.

I will speak about who and what we are in a separate thread. But one thing I will clearly say is that we are blessed with the privilege that we can openly and clearly speak about who and what we are. Can the others? Can you?

We are accused throughout and constantly but we refrain from doing that. We have been victimised but we do not victimise. We are considered Kafir/Mushrik by some but we do not consider others as such. Some justify our killing and deem it permissible but we don't. This is our school of thought and who we are.

Are you sure there's no evidence? If anything, there's big evidence. When a Shia leader says Imams can control universal atoms, when you say human being are in control of manipulating the physical world, your books filled with stories of this nature, are your opponents accusing from thin air or based on evidence? When a few groups from the Shia such as Saba'iyyah or `Alawites literally worshiped their Imams, was this an accusation from thin air? What extremism could have led to this I wonder?

The worst part is, your sect has this strategy of accusing their opponents with their own flaws, I wonder what Sunni group said Aba Bakr controlled the universe? What Sunni group openly worshiped him?

As for you not considering others as Kouffar, this is a small present:

In Al-Kafi, in the third hadith in the Chapter of Those that Die without an Imam of Guidance, we find Ja’afar Al-Sadiq being asked about the hadith of the Prophet – peace be upon him – “He who dies without knowing his Imam dies a death of jahiliyyah.” His companion asked about the type of jahiliyyah this falls under. Ja’afar then responded, “It is a jahiliyyah of disbelief, hypocrisy, and misguidance.”

Al-Majlisi graded the hadith as authentic in Mir’aat Al-Uqool 4/221.

That's our leader being a Takfiri.

[Hani]

Walaikum salam wr wb dear brother,


Wellcome to the forum. Alhamdulellah, that you left the sect of hate and fitna. May Allah bless you.

wa aleikum salam brother

thank u! im glad i left shiism after 30 years. cant stand longer for hate and cursing.

After 30 years, Wow! That is a very long time. Rather than suddenly leaving after such a long time why not just stop hating and cursing if that suddenly started to bother you? Allah becomes angry and he also hates and curses. And so does the Messenger (s). There are plenty of Verses and Hadiths to prove this.

God and his Messenger may hate and curse the unjust and corrupt but they are merciful and kind towards the just, Tashayyu` curses and hates the just and pious. That's what no one can stand.

Nobody hates and curses the just and pious because this is not sensible or logical. And one can be just and pious according to you but not to me or the other way around. Just as one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Give me a stronger argument!

The discussion of Lanat is of those matters among the two sects of Islam (Shiaism and Sunnism) which have few commonalities. In reality, nobody denies the concept of Lanat as it has the stamp of the Holy Quran and reliable traditions of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

The problem arises only when some people hesitate or prohibit people from cursing the ones who have been cursed by the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.).

Moreover, they display their friendship with the enemies of Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a). This PERSONALITY WORSHIP is the cause of the differences.

Terminologically, lanat means to pray to Allah to keep a person far from His Mercy. Lanat is the opposite of Salaam, which is a prayer to Allah for His Mercy on a person. Salawaat and Lanat are ways of manifesting Tawallah [love of Ahle Bait (a.s.)] and Tabarrah [enmity with the enemies of Ahle Bait (a.s.)]. They both go hand in hand.

See? Even the way you write gives hints of personality worship. For regular Muslims, Wala' & Bara' are associated with God Almighty, even the Prophet (saw). However, your version skips the most important elements of religion, all the way to certain family members of a chosen Messenger (saw). I sense your sect misses the point of this entire religion, ignores the universality of the messages and reduces itself to a political party backing an Arab tribe, much similar to times of Jahiliyyah.

We do not personality worship but we only praise and honour those whom Allah (s) and his Messenger (s) praise and honour. And the verses, Mobahila and Tat'heer, are more than enough to know and understand those who Allah purified and gave the seal of approval.

Also the Prophet's (s) well known and accepted Hadith that he left two weighty things 'WEIGHTY' behind for the Ummah the Sahaba to hold on to. We hold on to both, not just one (Qoran) but both. What did the Ummah do? What did the companions do? Did they hold on to and keep together the two weighty things?

The book of principles, rules and regulations, the way of life was there and left behind to be held on to. And also the people (Ahle Bayth) who were chosen, perfected, purified and selected to govern the Ummah and to take care of their affairs were also there and left behind to be held on to.

But we held on to the two WEIGHTY things and are still holding on to them and keeping them together and side by side.

Look this cherry picking with Mubahal and ignorance of Arabic related to Tathir, this stuff is old and has been refuted, you actually have NO argument. Debate any of these and see what happens. (Feel free to open topics)