Ex-Shias: Husayn, abu Zayd (Vigilare) & ahki_irani

[Farid]

1. the invasion of persia - when persia had been invaded its believed that the libraries with a vast amount of history had been set a light and Umar had asked for this to happen.

It is believed by whom? Points like these need to first be proven academically before being accepted as facts.

2. the age of the prophet(pbuh) when marrying aisha..I believe in bukhari she was around 9 while the prophet(pbuh) was in his 50s. now to me I ponder and think if a man of that age marries anyone under 14 what would you honestly think about him?

Dr. Jonathan Brown (Muslim convert) was asked about this in a lecture. He said something along the lines of, "Why do you care? This wasn't even an issue two hundred years ago, and nobody brought this point up against Islam until now!" Morals and values change with time. Are our standards today superior to the standards of the past simply because we have improved technologically? The correct standards are the standards of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala).

3. Also what is your position on Imam hussein and yazid?

The position of the Shias towards Yazeed is not exclusive to Shias. Many Sunnis feel the same way and openly curse Yazeed. Ibn Al-Jawzi, the sixth century scholar, even authored a book on the permissibility of cursing Yazeed. However, there are Sunnis that disagree that Yazeed played a part in the death of Hussain in the first place because of the large distance between Dimashq and Kufa/Karbala.

Regardless, one can always say that if the Shias are correct in their position towards Yazeed, then the truth is not exclusive to them, since some Sunnis feel the same way. While if the Shias are incorrect in their accusation, then the truth can be found with the Sunnis that hold the other view.

Wallahu a'alam. I hope this helps.

[Hani]

A far as the Persian library, wasn't this in Ibn Khaldoun's book? The man died in the 9th century with around 800 years between him and this event, also it doesn't seem like this report has a chain to verify its authenticity, in fact it seems to be a direct ripoff from the text of the Alexandria library report.




As far as the age of marriage, my mother was married at 14, and my grandmother at 12, and no one criticized them for it nor did anyone find it odd at the time, this was only about 60-80 years ago, so imagine 1,400 years ago.




Yazid is a corrupt oppressive politician who is responsible for Husayn's martyrdom, this is the opinion of 90% of Ahlul-Sunnah, the other 10% will say he is not worthy of being a leader and is oppressive but it wasn't his direct fault rather the fault of his governor.

[ahki_irani]

W Salam Baradar I am unable to read farsi (I believe it is farsi) however would be very interested to read that, is it available in english translation do you know?

[ahki_irani]

A far as the Persian library, wasn't this in Ibn Khaldoun's book? The man died in the 9th century with around 800 years between him and this event, also it doesn't seem like this report has a chain to verify its authenticity, in fact it seems to be a direct ripoff from the text of the Alexandria library report.




As far as the age of marriage, my mother was married at 14, and my grandmother at 12, and no one criticized them for it nor did anyone find it odd at the time, this was only about 60-80 years ago, so imagine 1,400 years ago.




Yazid is a corrupt oppressive politician who is responsible for Husayn's martyrdom, this is the opinion of 90% of Ahlul-Sunnah, the other 10% will say he is not worthy of being a leader and is oppressive but it wasn't his direct fault rather the fault of his governor.

To be honest the library incident ive seen written in a couple of places however its probably the same narrator and to what reliability the narrator has I have no idea so the whole thing is questionable, I will admit however its probably my own pride over being persian that this whole incident bothers me.

I am unable to find the reading I have read however have found an online link which states "

"When the Arab commander (Saad ibn-e Abi Vaghas) faced the huge library of Cteciphon, he wrote to Omar: what should be done about the books. Omar wrote back “If the books contradict the Koran, they are blasphemous and on the other hand if they are in agreement with the text of Koran, then they are not needed, as for us only Koran is sufficient”. Thus, the huge library was destroyed and the books or the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were burned in fire or thrown into the Euphrates.[1] By the order of another Arab ruler (Ghotaibeh ibn-e Moslem) in Khwarezmia, those who were literate with all the historians, writers and Mobeds were massacred and their books burned so that after one generation the people were illiterate.[2] Other libraries in Ray and Khorassan received the same treatment and the famous international University of Gondishapour declined and eventually abandoned, and its library and books vanished. Ibn-e Khaldoun, the famous Islamic historian summarizes the whole anihilation and conflagration:” where is the Persian science that Omar ordered to be destroyed?” Only few books survived, because the Persian scholars translated them into Arabic."

this can be found in http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/Post-Sasanian/zoroastrians_after_arab_invasion.htm

it looks biased but then again what history is totally neutral.   

I am happy with the replies given for the other questions I asked and thank you brothers for answering my questions.

I have to say a lot of my issues are outside the books but rather whats going on in the world today when I read on social media muslims supporting sadam and some even IsIs it puts me off fully leaving shia islam if that makes sense.

[lotfilms]

W Salam Baradar I am unable to read farsi (I believe it is farsi) however would be very interested to read that, is it available in english translation do you know?

i was unfortunately only able to find the second volume in English (which doesn't cover nearly as much as the first volume regarding how the Persians were prior to and during Islam) but the first chapter regarding the language is better than nothing:
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol6-n2-1989/islam-and-iran-historical-study-mutual-services-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhar-0#persian-language

[Hani]

Let's make one thing clear, Islam is a beautiful religion but it is being misrepresented in media and it is being misrepresented by some individuals who claim to adhere to it.


"Saddam" was a secular Arab leader, he was an oppressor, his people disliked him just as the Syrians today dislike Bachar. Yes, some pan-Arabist folks will support "Saddam" but they're not representing Islam by doing so as they're liberals and nationalists. Another group will support "Saddam" just out of hatred for Shia, they actually hate the man but will praise him for sectarian reasons only.


We Muslims are suffering a lot because of these tyrants who rule us, they're corrupt and filthy individuals the whole of them, we certainly do not appreciate them being around but this is the circumstance we're in today and so we have to exercise patience. We believe that by purifying our souls, by perfecting our manners and by being sincere in our worship, we can then become a good example for the coming generations who will succeed us, in a way that they can produce a better leadership.


Regarding "Isis", this group of ignorant fools is no more than a terrorist organisation, they've damaged the image of this religion and reduced us to a bunch of savages in the eyes of the people. These people have no knowledge in religion, they've got no common decency and certainly no mercy and humanity in their hearts. I assure you, not one of them has opened a legitimate book of religion and learned anything in his entire life, rather they make Takfeer on the people and fight the believers and cause division and tribulation in the lands. This is a Khariji Takfeeri sect, similar groups have emerged in Islam's history.


Finally, the library burning, so far I see no evidence which is remotely reliable, just the word of a 9th century historian, I'll look into it more and see if I can find anything. I think the burning of library as large and as great as the Persian library, deserves at least a Hadith or two with reliable chains, we have LOADS of narrations on so many details that took place, how come this thing is nowhere to be found? Huge question mark here.

[Hani]

"When the Arab commander (Saad ibn-e Abi Vaghas) faced the huge library of Cteciphon, he wrote to Omar: what should be done about the books. Omar wrote back “If the books contradict the Koran, they are blasphemous and on the other hand if they are in agreement with the text of Koran, then they are not needed, as for us only Koran is sufficient”. Thus, the huge library was destroyed and the books or the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were burned in fire or thrown into the Euphrates.[1] By the order of another Arab ruler (Ghotaibeh ibn-e Moslem) in Khwarezmia, those who were literate with all the historians, writers and Mobeds were massacred and their books burned so that after one generation the people were illiterate.[2] Other libraries in Ray and Khorassan received the same treatment and the famous international University of Gondishapour declined and eventually abandoned, and its library and books vanished. Ibn-e Khaldoun, the famous Islamic historian summarizes the whole anihilation and conflagration:” where is the Persian science that Omar ordered to be destroyed?” Only few books survived, because the Persian scholars translated them into Arabic."

this can be found in http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/Post-Sasanian/zoroastrians_after_arab_invasion.htm

This is the first very fishy part, a lie was attributed to `Umar that he had ordered the books in Alexandria to be burned, this was sufficiently refuted by the scholars in detail. However, in that fake report about Alexandria, `Umar is quoted to have told `Amr when he asked him:


"Umar replied 'As for the books you have mentioned I can say that those which agree with the Book of God (The Quran) are to be disposed of because Quran is sufficient.  And if they have things which contradict the Quran, so they must be deposed of."


And in this report above extracted from Ibn Khaldoun's book, `Umar is quoted to have told Sa`d:


 "If the books contradict the Koran, they are blasphemous and on the other hand if they are in agreement with the text of Koran, then they are not needed"


Notice, that this lie is copied from the previous lie, the exact same sentence almost letter for letter.


This can be easily refuted because the reason `Umar gave for burning those books, is "If they contradict the Qur'an burn them", yet `Umar lived side by side with Jews and Christians and Magians in Yemen and `Iraq and Egypt and Persia, all of whom had books such as the Torah and Bible and "Avesta", yet he never ordered any of these books to be burned, he never took the bibles away from the Christians and burned any of them even though they directly conflicted with the Qur'an.


Thus the text above, not only has no chain of transmission, it even contradicts common sense and what is popular and known to all.

[ahki_irani]

W Salam Baradar I am unable to read farsi (I believe it is farsi) however would be very interested to read that, is it available in english translation do you know?

i was unfortunately only able to find the second volume in English (which doesn't cover nearly as much as the first volume regarding how the Persians were prior to and during Islam) but the first chapter regarding the language is better than nothing:
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol6-n2-1989/islam-and-iran-historical-study-mutual-services-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhar-0#persian-language

Non the less thank you for your efforts and still I will have a read. Are you shia by the way if you dont mind me asking?

[ahki_irani]

Let's make one thing clear, Islam is a beautiful religion but it is being misrepresented in media and it is being misrepresented by some individuals who claim to adhere to it.


"Saddam" was a secular Arab leader, he was an oppressor, his people disliked him just as the Syrians today dislike Bachar. Yes, some pan-Arabist folks will support "Saddam" but they're not representing Islam by doing so as they're liberals and nationalists. Another group will support "Saddam" just out of hatred for Shia, they actually hate the man but will praise him for sectarian reasons only.


We Muslims are suffering a lot because of these tyrants who rule us, they're corrupt and filthy individuals the whole of them, we certainly do not appreciate them being around but this is the circumstance we're in today and so we have to exercise patience. We believe that by purifying our souls, by perfecting our manners and by being sincere in our worship, we can then become a good example for the coming generations who will succeed us, in a way that they can produce a better leadership.


Regarding "Isis", this group of ignorant fools is no more than a terrorist organisation, they've damaged the image of this religion and reduced us to a bunch of savages in the eyes of the people. These people have no knowledge in religion, they've got no common decency and certainly no mercy and humanity in their hearts. I assure you, not one of them has opened a legitimate book of religion and learned anything in his entire life, rather they make Takfeer on the people and fight the believers and cause division and tribulation in the lands. This is a Khariji Takfeeri sect, similar groups have emerged in Islam's history.


Finally, the library burning, so far I see no evidence which is remotely reliable, just the word of a 9th century historian, I'll look into it more and see if I can find anything. I think the burning of library as large and as great as the Persian library, deserves at least a Hadith or two with reliable chains, we have LOADS of narrations on so many details that took place, how come this thing is nowhere to be found? Huge question mark here.

I appreciate your efforts brother and if you ever manage to find what any of the scholars say about the alleged incident I would be grateful if you could send me it.

I agree with what youve said its my own pride that stops me I think and also I want to be 100% before I make my decision public as I don't want to be one of those people who go back and forth from different sects.

[MissyB786]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

1. the invasion of persia

Salam baradar let me ask you a few questions regarding the invasion of Persia:
1) Did the Persians all instantly convert to Islam (meaning that they were forced) or did they slowly covert to Islam over the span of like 300 years, especially after the Quran was translated into Farsi (meaning that they converted out of their free will) ?
2) Did the Arabs force Arabic on the Persians and eliminate the Persian language or did they allow the Persian language to be protected and remain with us to this day?

i highly recommend this book by Ayatullah al-Mutahhari where he disproves the propaganda of some of the Persian nationalists who claim that Islam is an Arab religion forced on the Persian people:
خدمات متقابل ايران و اسلام
http://www.aviny.com/library/motahari/PDF/khadamatemotegabel.pdf

Hopefully you'll find it beneficial insha'Allah

May Allah(swt) guide us all amen

Khuda Hafiz

Aaah I wish I could read Farsi, do u have an english version of this?

[MissyB786]

Let's make one thing clear, Islam is a beautiful religion but it is being misrepresented in media and it is being misrepresented by some individuals who claim to adhere to it.


"Saddam" was a secular Arab leader, he was an oppressor, his people disliked him just as the Syrians today dislike Bachar. Yes, some pan-Arabist folks will support "Saddam" but they're not representing Islam by doing so as they're liberals and nationalists. Another group will support "Saddam" just out of hatred for Shia, they actually hate the man but will praise him for sectarian reasons only.


We Muslims are suffering a lot because of these tyrants who rule us, they're corrupt and filthy individuals the whole of them, we certainly do not appreciate them being around but this is the circumstance we're in today and so we have to exercise patience. We believe that by purifying our souls, by perfecting our manners and by being sincere in our worship, we can then become a good example for the coming generations who will succeed us, in a way that they can produce a better leadership.


Regarding "Isis", this group of ignorant fools is no more than a terrorist organisation, they've damaged the image of this religion and reduced us to a bunch of savages in the eyes of the people. These people have no knowledge in religion, they've got no common decency and certainly no mercy and humanity in their hearts. I assure you, not one of them has opened a legitimate book of religion and learned anything in his entire life, rather they make Takfeer on the people and fight the believers and cause division and tribulation in the lands. This is a Khariji Takfeeri sect, similar groups have emerged in Islam's history.


Finally, the library burning, so far I see no evidence which is remotely reliable, just the word of a 9th century historian, I'll look into it more and see if I can find anything. I think the burning of library as large and as great as the Persian library, deserves at least a Hadith or two with reliable chains, we have LOADS of narrations on so many details that took place, how come this thing is nowhere to be found? Huge question mark here.

And irrelevant to the post but saw this quote and thought it applicable to this about opressive tyrant rulers and trials and tribulations.

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, رحمه الله:
"For the people of sins there are three great rivers with which they purify themselves in this world and if these do not suffice in purifying them, then they are purified in the river of Hell-fire on the Day of Judgment:
1. A river of sincere repentance,
2. A river of good deeds that drowns the sins that surround it,
3. And a river of great calamities (that befall the sinner) that expiate (his sins)
Therefore, when Allaah intends good for His slave, He enters him into one of these three rivers, so he comes purified and cleansed on the Day of Judgement, not requiring the fourth purification.
And the fourth purification:
The river of Hell-fire on Yawm al-Qiyamah.
So swim in the river of repentance and doing good deeds and have patience in the river of calamities. And do not neglect these before a day comes when you will be drowned in the river of Hell-fire whose fuel is men and stones”
[Madaarij as-Saalikeen 1/312, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, رحمه الله]

[Hadrami]

Salam Alekyum,
brother Husayn I would like to talk to you privatelt if possible?
Im litreally on the last stages of confirming my self as ahlul sunnah wa jamat. I come from a shia background however the whole concept of imamate does not seem rational to me. However I still have my doubts so would like to speak to you inshAllah

MashaAllah, at least you realise that. Its a good start, many shia bury their head in the sand when it comes to this illogical & contradictive belief

[Furkan]

When I read these personal stories, I always hope  my shiite friend also starts thinking in a critical way about imamah (so far not much succes) and I give many arguments, but it's just that only Allah can guide people.

[Abu Zayd]

A lot of it is also about looking at history without cherry picking.  Shi'a will focus on certain reports or events, but will ignore or be ignorant of the bigger picture.

[Abu Zayd]

Since I've been asked this question a few times, and it would be highly relevant to this thread, the single most important reason I left Shia'ism is because one of its most important tenants, one that sets it apart from other sects, is not in the Quran.

Reading books of history, hadith, and involving oneself in polemics is pointless if the Quran takes a back seat.

[Furkan]

Indeed! Ma sha Allah Brother.

Imamate is absent from quran. But let's agree with shites that it is not necesary to be stated in quran and using narrations as a source for imamate is enough. Then where is the twelvth imam of our time, since for every generation there is a need of a masoom?

Conclusion: no imamate to be found in Quran AND in reality.

[MuslimK]

Salam Alekyum,
brother Husayn I would like to talk to you privatelt if possible?
Im litreally on the last stages of confirming my self as ahlul sunnah wa jamat. I come from a shia background however the whole concept of imamate does not seem rational to me. However I still have my doubts so would like to speak to you inshAllah

Any update?