Anyone want to debate?

[Khaled]

as-Salaamu alykum,

I have been thinking about this for a while; but I sincerely believe I can do a way better job debating and defending the 12er madhhab than your average Shi'i, and I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm.  Therefore, I got the idea that I would debate on here on the side of the 12er against anyone that would like to go.

So anyone want to have a go?  I'll do any topic, but I think Imamah in the Qur'an is a good topic

[iceman]

as-Salaamu alykum,

I have been thinking about this for a while; but I sincerely believe I can do a way better job debating and defending the 12er madhhab than your average Shi'i, and I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm.  Therefore, I got the idea that I would debate on here on the side of the 12er against anyone that would like to go.

So anyone want to have a go?  I'll do any topic, but I think Imamah in the Qur'an is a good topic

You're not really a big fan of mine but I agree with your statement,

"I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm"

That's what's always been the problem. It's the attitude, behaviour, the approach and how they come across. It's more like they're at war with the Shia rather than they're at discussion.

[Mythbuster1]

Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?

[Khaled]

Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?

Wa alykum assalaam, depends, would you like to debate? 

[iceman]

Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?

ABSOLUTELY.

[muslim720]

ABSOLUTELY.

That is not a Qur'anic verse.  Re-read the challenge and try again!

[iceman]

Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?

You asked for a CLEAR VERSE from the Qur'an on DIVINE LEADERSHIP (Imamah).

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [God] said, “Indeed, I will make you a leader (Imam) for the people.” [Abraham] said, “And of my descendants?” [God] said, “My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.” Qur’an 2:124

Questions for you to ponder over, what was Abraham before he was tried by his Lord? When he was tried by his Lord and he succeeded what was Abraham made?
Was he promoted, demoted or given a title/grade of a similar nature/value to what he was before he was tried?

[muslim720]

You asked for a CLEAR VERSE from the Qur'an on DIVINE LEADERSHIP (Imamah).

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [God] said, “Indeed, I will make you a leader (Imam) for the people.” [Abraham] said, “And of my descendants?” [God] said, “My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.” Qur’an 2:124

The correct understanding of the verse is that after Ibrahim (asws) was tried over and over again by Allah (swt), he was made a leader, an example, for all mankind (to follow).  While other Prophets (asws) were sent to their specific people, Ibrahim (asws) was made a leader for all mankind, including Muslims....our Prophet (saw) was sent to all mankind as well.  The sacrifice we offer during Eid al-Adha is to commemorate Ibrahim's (asws) (almost) sacrifice of his son.  We pray behind maqam Ibrahim in Mecca, etc.

what was Abraham before he was tried by his Lord? When he was tried by his Lord and he succeeded what was Abraham made?

You want us to ponder over the fact that Ibrahim (asws) was made an Imam, therefore, there is another station - the station of Imamah - which you want us to believe in.  However, as usual, every Shi'i proof backfires against him or her.  If we accept your interpretation (that there is a station of Imamah), the verse sets the record straight.  For someone to attain Imamah, he must first attain prophethood.  Ibrahim (asws) was a Prophet, then he was declared an Imam.  Were any of your Imams (ra) prophets?  No, therefore, that takes all 12 of your Imams (ra) out of the running for the position of Imamah.

Also, you believe that your 12 Imams (ra) are above all Prophets (asws) except Rasulullah (saw).  Well, Ibrahim (asws) was a Prophet and an Imam, therefore, he (asws) trumps all your Imams (ra).  Can you reconcile your dichotomies on this point?

Was he promoted, demoted or given a title/grade of a similar nature/value to what he was before he was tried?

I will let your own Imam (ra) answer it for you.

In al-Kafi 1/176, as authenticated by al-Majlisi from Zurarah: I asked abu Ja`far (as) “What’s the difference between a Messenger and a Prophet?”  He replied: “A prophet can only see (the angel) in his dreams and hear their voices but he cannot see the angel while awake.  A messenger can hear the voice, see in the dream as well as while awake.”  I asked: ”What is the position of the Imam?”  He (as) said: “He hears the voice but does not see or observe the angel.”  Then he recited the following verse of the Holy Quran: {Satan would try to tamper with the desires of every Prophet or Messenger or Muhaddath whom We sent}.

Here is a summary of the differences between a Messenger (Rasool), Prophet (Nabee), and Imam (Muhaddath).

-Messengers: They see and hear the angel whether they are asleep or awake.
-Prophets: They see and hear the angel while asleep, but when they are awake they can only hear them.
-Imams: They can ONLY hear the reports, but they DO NOT see the angel whether they are asleep or awake.

According to your Imam (ra), Ibrahim (asws) was demoted whereas you want us to believe that Ibrahim (asws) was promoted.  Another dichotomy you have to reconcile!

[Khaled]

Great, thanks for hijacking my thread

[iceman]

The correct understanding of the verse is that after Ibrahim (asws) was tried over and over again by Allah (swt), he was made a leader, an example, for all mankind (to follow).  While other Prophets (asws) were sent to their specific people, Ibrahim (asws) was made a leader for all mankind, including Muslims....our Prophet (saw) was sent to all mankind as well.  The sacrifice we offer during Eid al-Adha is to commemorate Ibrahim's (asws) (almost) sacrifice of his son.  We pray behind maqam Ibrahim in Mecca, etc.

You want us to ponder over the fact that Ibrahim (asws) was made an Imam, therefore, there is another station - the station of Imamah - which you want us to believe in.  However, as usual, every Shi'i proof backfires against him or her.  If we accept your interpretation (that there is a station of Imamah), the verse sets the record straight.  For someone to attain Imamah, he must first attain prophethood.  Ibrahim (asws) was a Prophet, then he was declared an Imam.  Were any of your Imams (ra) prophets?  No, therefore, that takes all 12 of your Imams (ra) out of the running for the position of Imamah.

Also, you believe that your 12 Imams (ra) are above all Prophets (asws) except Rasulullah (saw).  Well, Ibrahim (asws) was a Prophet and an Imam, therefore, he (asws) trumps all your Imams (ra).  Can you reconcile your dichotomies on this point?

I will let your own Imam (ra) answer it for you.

In al-Kafi 1/176, as authenticated by al-Majlisi from Zurarah: I asked abu Ja`far (as) “What’s the difference between a Messenger and a Prophet?”  He replied: “A prophet can only see (the angel) in his dreams and hear their voices but he cannot see the angel while awake.  A messenger can hear the voice, see in the dream as well as while awake.”  I asked: ”What is the position of the Imam?”  He (as) said: “He hears the voice but does not see or observe the angel.”  Then he recited the following verse of the Holy Quran: {Satan would try to tamper with the desires of every Prophet or Messenger or Muhaddath whom We sent}.

Here is a summary of the differences between a Messenger (Rasool), Prophet (Nabee), and Imam (Muhaddath).

-Messengers: They see and hear the angel whether they are asleep or awake.
-Prophets: They see and hear the angel while asleep, but when they are awake they can only hear them.
-Imams: They can ONLY hear the reports, but they DO NOT see the angel whether they are asleep or awake.

According to your Imam (ra), Ibrahim (asws) was demoted whereas you want us to believe that Ibrahim (asws) was promoted.  Another dichotomy you have to reconcile!

"The correct understanding of the verse is...."

The correct understanding of the verse is what is being said and what happened. Abraham was TRIED by his Lord and when succeded he was made an IMAM, get it an IMAM of the people. You always love to give it your own desired meaning and understanding. I don't want you to believe anything. I just want you to stop twisting and turning things around and take them as they are.

Don't derail the thread by bringing things in that are irrelevant or multiple. One step at a time. The man asked for a CLEAR VERSE from the Qur'an about DIVINE GUIDANCE and I gave it.

"You want us to ponder over the fact that Ibrahim (asws) was made an Imam, therefore, there is another station - the station of Imamah"

We believe in what the Qur'an says and tells us. You on the other hand can believe what ever you want. The verse is crystal clear and Allah has spoken to Muhammad  (pbuh) about the situation of Abraham. He was TRIED by his Lord and when succeded he was made an IMAM of the people. If you can't digest the facts then that's not my problem.

And the last bit which you've mentioned, I just don't know where you get your information from. Think and ponder over the info before you put it forward.

[iceman]

It is the majority opinion that there is a duty to appoint an Imam. But there is a difference, as to whether this is Allah’s duty or whether this is incumbent on the public.

The belief in the eyes of Ahl’ul Sunnah and Muttazalites is that the duty to appoint an Imam is a duty of the public. In terms of Hadith and logic this is a duty of the public.

In accordance with this belief, there is a Hadith in Sahih Muslim, narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar ‘He who dies without giving bayah to an Imam dies the death of one belonging to the days of jahiliyya’.

This is why the Sahaba viewed the appointment of the Imam as so important that they preferred it to attending the Prophet’s funeral, because the Muslims need an Imam so that orders can be made on Jihad, and so that Islamic Laws can be implemented”.

Sharh Fiqah Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, page 175 (publishers Muhammad Saeed and son, Quran Mahal, Karachi.

[Khaled]

How did this thread turn into Amin's copy and paste time?

Again, I want to debate on the part of the 12ers.  Any Sunnis want to take me up on the offer?

[iceman]

How did this thread turn into Amin's copy and paste time?

Again, I want to debate on the part of the 12ers.  Any Sunnis want to take me up on the offer?

Can't you find anyone else to pick on for a change. There are plenty of others.

[Khaled]

Can't you find anyone else to pick on for a change. There are plenty of others.

  You're on my thread hijacking it...

Dude, I'm starting to wonder about you; how old are you?

[iceman]

You're on my thread hijacking it...

Dude, I'm starting to wonder about you; how old are you?

I ain't high jacking it. You've got the wrong end of the stick as usual.

[Khaled]

I ain't high jacking it. You've got the wrong end of the stick as usual.

  I'm the OP, you came and hijacked my thread...

How old are you?

[iceman]

  I'm the OP, you came and hijacked my thread...

How old are you?

How come?

[Hadrami]

ok ill debate you, topic about muawiya & al hasan ra. My question: if shia truly believe muslim should only be led by a just, pious muslim leader, how come that just, pious muslim leader officially helped and approved a tyrant, evil kafir (as per shia belief of course) to lead the muslim?

[muslim720]

The correct understanding of the verse is what is being said and what happened. Abraham was TRIED by his Lord and when succeded he was made an IMAM, get it an IMAM of the people.

It is without a doubt that Ibrahim (asws) was tried and then declared an Imam for all mankind.  Before you even got to extrapolating this to your concept of Imamah and your 12 Imams (ra), I wanted to point out that if we go by the text of the verse then one can only become an Imam after he has attained prophethood and successfully completed trials.

You always love to give it your own desired meaning and understanding. I don't want you to believe anything. I just want you to stop twisting and turning things around and take them as they are.

No problem!  We will take your understanding.  Now tell us how this applies to your Imams (ra) when none of them were prophets whereas Ibrahim (asws) was a prophet before he was "promoted" to be an Imam.  My bet would have been that you will dance around this point; seeing your recent behavior, you won't even acknowledge (let alone address) this point.

Don't derail the thread by bringing things in that are irrelevant or multiple. One step at a time. The man asked for a CLEAR VERSE from the Qur'an about DIVINE GUIDANCE and I gave it.

His intention was for you to present a verse which can then be applied to your concept of leadership, Imamah.  I am only trying to speed up the argument.  According to your own Imam (ra), contrary to what you want us to believe, this was not a "promotion" and the verse (if we go by your interpretation) necessitates that an Imam must first have attained prophethood.

The verse is crystal clear and Allah has spoken to Muhammad  (pbuh) about the situation of Abraham. He was TRIED by his Lord and when succeded he was made an IMAM of the people. If you can't digest the facts then that's not my problem.

I understand that fact and I fully accept it.  In fact, when I send salawaat upon the Prophet (saw), I ask for the same blessings upon him (saw) and his aal as sent upon Ibrahim (asws) and his aal, something you do not do.  However, coming back to our point of contention, when did your Imams (ra) attain prophethood to be promoted to being Imams because the verse (if I apply your understanding to it) makes prophethood a prerequisite for being an Imam?

And the last bit which you've mentioned, I just don't know where you get your information from. Think and ponder over the info before you put it forward.

I can assure you it is not from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah

[iceman]

It is without a doubt that Ibrahim (asws) was tried and then declared an Imam for all mankind.  Before you even got to extrapolating this to your concept of Imamah and your 12 Imams (ra), I wanted to point out that if we go by the text of the verse then one can only become an Imam after he has attained prophethood and successfully completed trials.

No problem!  We will take your understanding.  Now tell us how this applies to your Imams (ra) when none of them were prophets whereas Ibrahim (asws) was a prophet before he was "promoted" to be an Imam.  My bet would have been that you will dance around this point; seeing your recent behavior, you won't even acknowledge (let alone address) this point.

His intention was for you to present a verse which can then be applied to your concept of leadership, Imamah.  I am only trying to speed up the argument.  According to your own Imam (ra), contrary to what you want us to believe, this was not a "promotion" and the verse (if we go by your interpretation) necessitates that an Imam must first have attained prophethood.

I understand that fact and I fully accept it.  In fact, when I send salawaat upon the Prophet (saw), I ask for the same blessings upon him (saw) and his aal as sent upon Ibrahim (asws) and his aal, something you do not do.  However, coming back to our point of contention, when did your Imams (ra) attain prophethood to be promoted to being Imams because the verse (if I apply your understanding to it) makes prophethood a prerequisite for being an Imam?

I can assure you it is not from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah

This is what the man asked in post #2,

"Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?"

That's all he asked for and I gave him a CLEAR AND CUT verse from the Qur'an about DIVINE LEADERSHIP.

I don't know why you're jumping up and down and what for. Calm down. He asked a simple question and I stepped forward and gave him a straight answer.