Anyone want to debate?

[muslim720]

I don't know why you're jumping up and down and what for. Calm down. He asked a simple question and I stepped forward and gave him a straight answer.

...and I want you to know that your answer actually disqualifies your own belief on leadership and successorship.

[Khaled]

ok ill debate you, topic about muawiya & al hasan ra. My question: if shia truly believe muslim should only be led by a just, pious muslim leader, how come that just, pious muslim leader officially helped and approved a tyrant, evil kafir (as per shia belief of course) to lead the muslim?

as-Salaamu alykum,

I wanted to actually do Imamah in the Qur'an, but I guess this'll do.

1) What is your definition of "led"?  Just because an Imam doesn't lead politically, doesn't mean he doesn't lead spiritually.  Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام led by teaching his true follower the real Islam and showed us how to deal with a situation to avoid maximum bloodshed; just like Imam Ali عليه السلام and Imam al-Husssayn عليه السلام did.
2) While Mu'awiyah was a kafir in the akhira, he's a Muslim in this world, and as such, should be treated that way.
3) Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام never "helped" Mu'awiyah, he only gave up his political right to avoid bloodshed, like his grandfather صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم did in the Treaty of Hudaybiah.

I leave the ball in your court.

[Mythbuster1]

Asalam alaikum

Is there a clear verse on divine Imamate the ones shia follow,in the Quran? Anything that is clear as in praying,fasting,zakah and hajj.

Any clear verse if I was a non Muslim and read the Quran a verse specifically for such a station that I cannot refuse?

[Hadrami]

as-Salaamu alykum,

I wanted to actually do Imamah in the Qur'an, but I guess this'll do.

1) What is your definition of "led"?  Just because an Imam doesn't lead politically, doesn't mean he doesn't lead spiritually.  Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام led by teaching his true follower the real Islam and showed us how to deal with a situation to avoid maximum bloodshed; just like Imam Ali عليه السلام and Imam al-Husssayn عليه السلام did.

Ok, if being a spiritual leader is enough then why the neverending condemnation of other khulafa? Shia 1000yr grudge shows that shia believe imam should be a leader of the nation too and shia clearly believe mahdi will be spiritual and political leader.

2) While Mu'awiyah was a kafir in the akhira, he's a Muslim in this world, and as such, should be treated that way.

Ibn Ubay was known for his hypocricy and he was the "royal" in Madina. Have you even seen him being given temporary political leading role in Madina? Not even in the most dire situation he was given that responsibility. So whose example is this giving leadership to someone you believe a kafir? Leave the word playing game out. Muawiya stance is known, according to shia, fight imam=major kufr. Id love to see Khamenei give up political leadership to king salman and see shia reaction 😀

3) Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام never "helped" Mu'awiyah, he only gave up his political right to avoid bloodshed, like his grandfather صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم did in the Treaty of Hudaybiah.

I leave the ball in your court.

This is just a repeating point. When did hudaybiya treaty includes a term that Madina having a leader who fight and killed Madinan? Apple & orange comparison is shia favourite game.

PS: i stopped here, i sound fake knowing who you are 😂😂😂

[MuslimAnswers]

as-Salaamu alykum,

I have been thinking about this for a while; but I sincerely believe I can do a way better job debating and defending the 12er madhhab than your average Shi'i, and I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm.  Therefore, I got the idea that I would debate on here on the side of the 12er against anyone that would like to go.

So anyone want to have a go?  I'll do any topic, but I think Imamah in the Qur'an is a good topic

I see you are in a "debate" already with someone: For one I think it should be a one-on-one debate. However beyond that I see it as difficult for you to act the part, since there are so many hidden (very negative) assumptions about us the Ummah of Islam which the other side harbors, and a very different view of what constitutes the fabric of reality itself, it is very difficult to act the part. The issue of "Imamah in the Quran" comes with so many layers of these suppositions, it is hard to see how any proper debate can be conducted on this matter.

[MuslimAnswers]

as-Salaamu alykum,

I wanted to actually do Imamah in the Qur'an, but I guess this'll do.

1) What is your definition of "led"?  Just because an Imam doesn't lead politically, doesn't mean he doesn't lead spiritually.  Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام led by teaching his true follower the real Islam and showed us how to deal with a situation to avoid maximum bloodshed; just like Imam Ali عليه السلام and Imam al-Husssayn عليه السلام did.
2) While Mu'awiyah was a kafir in the akhira, he's a Muslim in this world, and as such, should be treated that way.
3) Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام never "helped" Mu'awiyah, he only gave up his political right to avoid bloodshed, like his grandfather صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم did in the Treaty of Hudaybiah.

I leave the ball in your court.

Even though it is 'role-playing', I should say concerning Number #1 at least, the definition of 'led' in here is circular and useless: If the Infallible wages war and dies in battle, he is spiritually leading, that is understandable; but, if the Infallible makes a peace treaty and sits at home, only leaving to collect money from the usurpers, he is still spiritually leading; if the Infallible takes poison and kills himself like Hitler, he is still leading spiritually; if the Infallible is in hiding for centuries and does not make himself visibly known and a target for us "Nasibis" who would love to kill him, he is still leading; alas, this term means nothing in practical terms, the Twelver needs to try better.

[MuslimAnswers]

^

Concerning the second matter - of Muawiyah (RAA) being a Muslim in this world, a Kafir in the next- this is in fact a point in favor of the opponent of the Shia in one of several ways: If acknowledging the temporal rule of 'Imam Hasan' is necessary for salvation, then even Hasan himself did not acquiesce to this condition and did not uphold it, and he would be a Kafir in the next world, a point against the Shias. If rather no, it is not necessary for salvation, then this was the position of the opponent from the beginning and again the matter is decided in his favor. If the issue is due to political expediency, then the actions and words of the 'Infallible Imam' are of consequence and have no intrinsic meaning since they can be interpreted and reinterpreted ad infinitum, they can provide no salvation or guidance of any kind. This can even be extended to things like 'Ghadeer' or 'Thaqalayn', the opponent will simply say "The Prophet maybe said these things out a political compulsion from his original tribe, but they are really of no consequence either in terms of following or even respecting his family"

[sidd.abdul3]

as-Salaamu alykum,

I have been thinking about this for a while; but I sincerely believe I can do a way better job debating and defending the 12er madhhab than your average Shi'i, and I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm.  Therefore, I got the idea that I would debate on here on the side of the 12er against anyone that would like to go.

So anyone want to have a go?  I'll do any topic, but I think Imamah in the Qur'an is a good topic

I'll debate you, but not on the forum because it is too hectic. I think it will be better if we debate through email. Let me know what you think.

[iceman]

Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?

And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.

You been busted for being a switch on & off Quranist when it suits you.

[iceman]

You been busted for being a switch on & off Quranist when it suits you.

😊 I don't go by what suits me, that's your stance. 😊

[sidd.abdul3]

And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.

It has nothing to do with being a QUR'ANIST. We ask for a single clear and unambiguous verse from the quran that talks about the shia concept of imama. This is because the imama is one of the shia's basic beliefs and is so important to them, to the point where they make duaa to Ali (RA), so there should be such a verse in the quran. If it was so important, why wouldn't Allah (SWT) mention it in the quran? 

[iceman]

It has nothing to do with being a QUR'ANIST. We ask for a single clear and unambiguous verse from the quran that talks about the shia concept of imama. This is because the imama is one of the shia's basic beliefs and is so important to them, to the point where they make duaa to Ali (RA), so there should be such a verse in the quran. If it was so important, why wouldn't Allah (SWT) mention it in the quran?

ABSOLUTELY, you have every right to think then ask as such. But in return you must allow exactly the same right to others. Allow me to explain and give you an example.

Zakah is also very important. If you don't give Zakah does any Caliph or ruler have the right to order your execution  and would that be seen as a decision based on Shariah law.

This is also a very serious matter. If the answer is YES then this must come from Allah and therefore has to be in the Qur'an. 

[Mythbuster1]

And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.

Quranist? Have you missed your medication again?
Wasn’t it ameen aka icepop man who wanted to know zakah punishment just from Quran?
You are slithering all over the place lol.

I challenged you on divinity imarmite months ago and you couldn’t give me ANY evidence from the Quran yourself.

So......go do one until you find it in the Quran then come back

[iceman]

Quranist? Have you missed your medication again?
Wasn’t it ameen aka icepop man who wanted to know zakah punishment just from Quran?
You are slithering all over the place lol.

I challenged you on divinity imarmite months ago and you couldn’t give me ANY evidence from the Quran yourself.

So......go do one until you find it in the Quran then come back

As you can clearly see viewers still no answer. They can't even touch the matter. Do you give Zakah or do you take it? If you refuse to give it are you subject to capital punishment? Your execution would that be based on Shariah law or government law?

Yes Zakah collectors were appointed by which ever Caliph but it's your choice to give Zakah to whom you want and wish. And I can very easily prove this from the QUR'AN if asked. I wouldn't need to dance around it if asked.

[iceman]

And here's the proof straight from the Qur'an without even being asked to deliver it.

The Eight Kinds of People Who Receive Zakat

The Eight Kinds of People Who Receive Zakat

Congratulations! You are getting ready to pay your zakat!
But wait. Who can receive your zakat? And who makes that decision?
The answer is easy: Zakat can be paid to deserving individuals or groups who fall into one or more of eight zakatable categories designated by God in the Quran.

Indeed, [prescribed] charitable offerings are only [to be given] to the poor and the indigent, and to those who work on [administering] it, and to those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to [free] those in bondage, and to the debt-ridden, and for the cause of God, and to the wayfarer. [This is] an obligation from God. And God is all-knowing, all-wise. – Al-Tawbah, 9:60

The Quran specifies how zakat is to be distributed precisely, but grants Muslims flexibility in its payment. This guarantees the right of the needful while accommodating changes in how wealth is stored, how money is best distributed, and how different cultures change over time. The Quran also makes it possible for Muslims to pay their zakat to trusted institutions that distribute it to those who belong to one or more of the zakat-worthy categories.

It is noteworthy that God Himself identified for zakat payers and administrators the eight categories for zakat disbursement. This determination is not up to the government, scholars, or even the Prophet himself. It is reported that a man once came to the Prophet and asked him zakat.

The Prophet said: Allah permitted not even a prophet to adjudge zakat[-worthiness]. Rather, He Himself ruled on it and permitted it in eight cases. Therefore, if you belong to any of these, I shall most surely give you your right. – Abû Dâ’ûd
So, where can your zakat go?

1. The poor (al-fuqarâ’), meaning low-income or indigent.
2. The needy (al-masâkîn), meaning someone who is in difficulty.
3. Zakat administrators.
4. Those whose hearts are to be reconciled, meaning new Muslims and friends of the Muslim community.
5. Those in bondage (slaves and captives.
6. The debt-ridden.
7. In the cause of God.
8. The wayfarer, meaning those who are stranded or traveling with few resources.
While zakat is not the only form of charity in Islam, it is so important that it was made the Third Pillar. Through zakat the prosperous can uplift the poor, help those who are troubled and comfort those who are in hardship.

The law of zakat establishes the rights of the poor to support and help, and releases those who are held captive as slaves or as debtors. Zakat has the power to change the world. But it starts with you paying it.

[iceman]

Point to be noted;

"Zakat can be paid to deserving individuals or groups who fall into one or more of eight zakatable categories designated by God in the Quran."

Did you notice the words "DESIGNATED BY ALLAH" Not by Caliphs or rulers but by Allah.

Indeed, [prescribed] charitable offerings are only [to be given] to the poor and the indigent, and to those who work on [administering] it, and to those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to [free] those in bondage, and to the debt-ridden, and for the cause of God, and to the wayfarer. [This is] an obligation from God. And God is all-knowing, all-wise. – Al-Tawbah, 9:60

Now for argumental reasons lets accept that a Caliph/ruler has appointed someone to collect Zakah then that's ok but the people still have a choice on who to give Zakah out of the designated 8, right? Or does the appointee have the right to take this choice away from the people and say "no you only pay Zakah to me or you'll be executed"?

[Mythbuster1]

As you can clearly see viewers still no answer. They can't even touch the matter. Do you give Zakah or do you take it? If you refuse to give it are you subject to capital punishment? Your execution would that be based on Shariah law or government law?

Yes Zakah collectors were appointed by which ever Caliph but it's your choice to give Zakah to whom you want and wish. And I can very easily prove this from the QUR'AN if asked. I wouldn't need to dance around it if asked.

The thing is........you cannot find a proof of Imamate a major pillar of faith in shiism and yet you want proof of punishment on non zakah payers???

Come on iceman zakah should be the least of your problems

Do sit down with a chai and THINK!

Learn to walk before you run.......your falling all over the place😜

[iceman]

The thing is........you cannot find a proof of Imamate a major pillar of faith in shiism and yet you want proof of punishment on non zakah payers???

Come on iceman zakah should be the least of your problems

Do sit down with a chai and THINK!

Learn to walk before you run.......your falling all over the place😜

😊 We're not discussing Imamah, you keep bringing this up because you can't answer or address what we're discussing 😀

[sidd.abdul3]

ABSOLUTELY, you have every right to think then ask as such. But in return you must allow exactly the same right to others. Allow me to explain and give you an example.

Zakah is also very important. If you don't give Zakah does any Caliph or ruler have the right to order your execution  and would that be seen as a decision based on Shariah law.

This is also a very serious matter. If the answer is YES then this must come from Allah and therefore has to be in the Qur'an.

There is a very clear verse about Zakah. Allah (SWT) says: "And establish prayer and give zakah and bow with those who bow [in worship and obedience] (2:43)."

Now it's your turn to give us one such verse about Imama.