TwelverShia.net Forum
Off Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Khaled on April 17, 2018, 10:46:11 PM
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as-Salaamu alykum,
I have been thinking about this for a while; but I sincerely believe I can do a way better job debating and defending the 12er madhhab than your average Shi'i, and I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm. Therefore, I got the idea that I would debate on here on the side of the 12er against anyone that would like to go.
So anyone want to have a go? I'll do any topic, but I think Imamah in the Qur'an is a good topic
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as-Salaamu alykum,
I have been thinking about this for a while; but I sincerely believe I can do a way better job debating and defending the 12er madhhab than your average Shi'i, and I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm. Therefore, I got the idea that I would debate on here on the side of the 12er against anyone that would like to go.
So anyone want to have a go? I'll do any topic, but I think Imamah in the Qur'an is a good topic
You're not really a big fan of mine but I agree with your statement,
"I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm"
That's what's always been the problem. It's the attitude, behaviour, the approach and how they come across. It's more like they're at war with the Shia rather than they're at discussion.
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Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?
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Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?
Wa alykum assalaam, depends, would you like to debate? 8)
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Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?
ABSOLUTELY.
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ABSOLUTELY.
That is not a Qur'anic verse. Re-read the challenge and try again!
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Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?
You asked for a CLEAR VERSE from the Qur'an on DIVINE LEADERSHIP (Imamah).
"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [God] said, “Indeed, I will make you a leader (Imam) for the people.” [Abraham] said, “And of my descendants?” [God] said, “My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.” Qur’an 2:124
Questions for you to ponder over, what was Abraham before he was tried by his Lord? When he was tried by his Lord and he succeeded what was Abraham made?
Was he promoted, demoted or given a title/grade of a similar nature/value to what he was before he was tried?
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You asked for a CLEAR VERSE from the Qur'an on DIVINE LEADERSHIP (Imamah).
"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [God] said, “Indeed, I will make you a leader (Imam) for the people.” [Abraham] said, “And of my descendants?” [God] said, “My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.” Qur’an 2:124
The correct understanding of the verse is that after Ibrahim (asws) was tried over and over again by Allah (swt), he was made a leader, an example, for all mankind (to follow). While other Prophets (asws) were sent to their specific people, Ibrahim (asws) was made a leader for all mankind, including Muslims....our Prophet (saw) was sent to all mankind as well. The sacrifice we offer during Eid al-Adha is to commemorate Ibrahim's (asws) (almost) sacrifice of his son. We pray behind maqam Ibrahim in Mecca, etc.
what was Abraham before he was tried by his Lord? When he was tried by his Lord and he succeeded what was Abraham made?
You want us to ponder over the fact that Ibrahim (asws) was made an Imam, therefore, there is another station - the station of Imamah - which you want us to believe in. However, as usual, every Shi'i proof backfires against him or her. If we accept your interpretation (that there is a station of Imamah), the verse sets the record straight. For someone to attain Imamah, he must first attain prophethood. Ibrahim (asws) was a Prophet, then he was declared an Imam. Were any of your Imams (ra) prophets? No, therefore, that takes all 12 of your Imams (ra) out of the running for the position of Imamah.
Also, you believe that your 12 Imams (ra) are above all Prophets (asws) except Rasulullah (saw). Well, Ibrahim (asws) was a Prophet and an Imam, therefore, he (asws) trumps all your Imams (ra). Can you reconcile your dichotomies on this point?
Was he promoted, demoted or given a title/grade of a similar nature/value to what he was before he was tried?
I will let your own Imam (ra) answer it for you.
In al-Kafi 1/176, as authenticated by al-Majlisi from Zurarah: I asked abu Ja`far (as) “What’s the difference between a Messenger and a Prophet?” He replied: “A prophet can only see (the angel) in his dreams and hear their voices but he cannot see the angel while awake. A messenger can hear the voice, see in the dream as well as while awake.” I asked: ”What is the position of the Imam?” He (as) said: “He hears the voice but does not see or observe the angel.” Then he recited the following verse of the Holy Quran: {Satan would try to tamper with the desires of every Prophet or Messenger or Muhaddath whom We sent}.
Here is a summary of the differences between a Messenger (Rasool), Prophet (Nabee), and Imam (Muhaddath).
-Messengers: They see and hear the angel whether they are asleep or awake.
-Prophets: They see and hear the angel while asleep, but when they are awake they can only hear them.
-Imams: They can ONLY hear the reports, but they DO NOT see the angel whether they are asleep or awake.
According to your Imam (ra), Ibrahim (asws) was demoted whereas you want us to believe that Ibrahim (asws) was promoted. Another dichotomy you have to reconcile!
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Great, thanks for hijacking my thread
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The correct understanding of the verse is that after Ibrahim (asws) was tried over and over again by Allah (swt), he was made a leader, an example, for all mankind (to follow). While other Prophets (asws) were sent to their specific people, Ibrahim (asws) was made a leader for all mankind, including Muslims....our Prophet (saw) was sent to all mankind as well. The sacrifice we offer during Eid al-Adha is to commemorate Ibrahim's (asws) (almost) sacrifice of his son. We pray behind maqam Ibrahim in Mecca, etc.
You want us to ponder over the fact that Ibrahim (asws) was made an Imam, therefore, there is another station - the station of Imamah - which you want us to believe in. However, as usual, every Shi'i proof backfires against him or her. If we accept your interpretation (that there is a station of Imamah), the verse sets the record straight. For someone to attain Imamah, he must first attain prophethood. Ibrahim (asws) was a Prophet, then he was declared an Imam. Were any of your Imams (ra) prophets? No, therefore, that takes all 12 of your Imams (ra) out of the running for the position of Imamah.
Also, you believe that your 12 Imams (ra) are above all Prophets (asws) except Rasulullah (saw). Well, Ibrahim (asws) was a Prophet and an Imam, therefore, he (asws) trumps all your Imams (ra). Can you reconcile your dichotomies on this point?
I will let your own Imam (ra) answer it for you.
In al-Kafi 1/176, as authenticated by al-Majlisi from Zurarah: I asked abu Ja`far (as) “What’s the difference between a Messenger and a Prophet?” He replied: “A prophet can only see (the angel) in his dreams and hear their voices but he cannot see the angel while awake. A messenger can hear the voice, see in the dream as well as while awake.” I asked: ”What is the position of the Imam?” He (as) said: “He hears the voice but does not see or observe the angel.” Then he recited the following verse of the Holy Quran: {Satan would try to tamper with the desires of every Prophet or Messenger or Muhaddath whom We sent}.
Here is a summary of the differences between a Messenger (Rasool), Prophet (Nabee), and Imam (Muhaddath).
-Messengers: They see and hear the angel whether they are asleep or awake.
-Prophets: They see and hear the angel while asleep, but when they are awake they can only hear them.
-Imams: They can ONLY hear the reports, but they DO NOT see the angel whether they are asleep or awake.
According to your Imam (ra), Ibrahim (asws) was demoted whereas you want us to believe that Ibrahim (asws) was promoted. Another dichotomy you have to reconcile!
"The correct understanding of the verse is...."
The correct understanding of the verse is what is being said and what happened. Abraham was TRIED by his Lord and when succeded he was made an IMAM, get it an IMAM of the people. You always love to give it your own desired meaning and understanding. I don't want you to believe anything. I just want you to stop twisting and turning things around and take them as they are.
Don't derail the thread by bringing things in that are irrelevant or multiple. One step at a time. The man asked for a CLEAR VERSE from the Qur'an about DIVINE GUIDANCE and I gave it.
"You want us to ponder over the fact that Ibrahim (asws) was made an Imam, therefore, there is another station - the station of Imamah"
We believe in what the Qur'an says and tells us. You on the other hand can believe what ever you want. The verse is crystal clear and Allah has spoken to Muhammad (pbuh) about the situation of Abraham. He was TRIED by his Lord and when succeded he was made an IMAM of the people. If you can't digest the facts then that's not my problem.
And the last bit which you've mentioned, I just don't know where you get your information from. Think and ponder over the info before you put it forward.
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It is the majority opinion that there is a duty to appoint an Imam. But there is a difference, as to whether this is Allah’s duty or whether this is incumbent on the public.
The belief in the eyes of Ahl’ul Sunnah and Muttazalites is that the duty to appoint an Imam is a duty of the public. In terms of Hadith and logic this is a duty of the public.
In accordance with this belief, there is a Hadith in Sahih Muslim, narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar ‘He who dies without giving bayah to an Imam dies the death of one belonging to the days of jahiliyya’.
This is why the Sahaba viewed the appointment of the Imam as so important that they preferred it to attending the Prophet’s funeral, because the Muslims need an Imam so that orders can be made on Jihad, and so that Islamic Laws can be implemented”.
Sharh Fiqah Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, page 175 (publishers Muhammad Saeed and son, Quran Mahal, Karachi.
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How did this thread turn into Amin's copy and paste time?
Again, I want to debate on the part of the 12ers. Any Sunnis want to take me up on the offer?
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How did this thread turn into Amin's copy and paste time?
Again, I want to debate on the part of the 12ers. Any Sunnis want to take me up on the offer?
Can't you find anyone else to pick on for a change. There are plenty of others.
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Can't you find anyone else to pick on for a change. There are plenty of others.
:o You're on my thread hijacking it...
Dude, I'm starting to wonder about you; how old are you?
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:o You're on my thread hijacking it...
Dude, I'm starting to wonder about you; how old are you?
I ain't high jacking it. You've got the wrong end of the stick as usual.
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I ain't high jacking it. You've got the wrong end of the stick as usual.
:o I'm the OP, you came and hijacked my thread...
How old are you?
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:o I'm the OP, you came and hijacked my thread...
How old are you?
How come?
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ok ill debate you, topic about muawiya & al hasan ra. My question: if shia truly believe muslim should only be led by a just, pious muslim leader, how come that just, pious muslim leader officially helped and approved a tyrant, evil kafir (as per shia belief of course) to lead the muslim?
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The correct understanding of the verse is what is being said and what happened. Abraham was TRIED by his Lord and when succeded he was made an IMAM, get it an IMAM of the people.
It is without a doubt that Ibrahim (asws) was tried and then declared an Imam for all mankind. Before you even got to extrapolating this to your concept of Imamah and your 12 Imams (ra), I wanted to point out that if we go by the text of the verse then one can only become an Imam after he has attained prophethood and successfully completed trials.
You always love to give it your own desired meaning and understanding. I don't want you to believe anything. I just want you to stop twisting and turning things around and take them as they are.
No problem! We will take your understanding. Now tell us how this applies to your Imams (ra) when none of them were prophets whereas Ibrahim (asws) was a prophet before he was "promoted" to be an Imam. My bet would have been that you will dance around this point; seeing your recent behavior, you won't even acknowledge (let alone address) this point.
Don't derail the thread by bringing things in that are irrelevant or multiple. One step at a time. The man asked for a CLEAR VERSE from the Qur'an about DIVINE GUIDANCE and I gave it.
His intention was for you to present a verse which can then be applied to your concept of leadership, Imamah. I am only trying to speed up the argument. According to your own Imam (ra), contrary to what you want us to believe, this was not a "promotion" and the verse (if we go by your interpretation) necessitates that an Imam must first have attained prophethood.
The verse is crystal clear and Allah has spoken to Muhammad (pbuh) about the situation of Abraham. He was TRIED by his Lord and when succeded he was made an IMAM of the people. If you can't digest the facts then that's not my problem.
I understand that fact and I fully accept it. In fact, when I send salawaat upon the Prophet (saw), I ask for the same blessings upon him (saw) and his aal as sent upon Ibrahim (asws) and his aal, something you do not do. However, coming back to our point of contention, when did your Imams (ra) attain prophethood to be promoted to being Imams because the verse (if I apply your understanding to it) makes prophethood a prerequisite for being an Imam?
And the last bit which you've mentioned, I just don't know where you get your information from. Think and ponder over the info before you put it forward.
I can assure you it is not from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah ;)
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It is without a doubt that Ibrahim (asws) was tried and then declared an Imam for all mankind. Before you even got to extrapolating this to your concept of Imamah and your 12 Imams (ra), I wanted to point out that if we go by the text of the verse then one can only become an Imam after he has attained prophethood and successfully completed trials.
No problem! We will take your understanding. Now tell us how this applies to your Imams (ra) when none of them were prophets whereas Ibrahim (asws) was a prophet before he was "promoted" to be an Imam. My bet would have been that you will dance around this point; seeing your recent behavior, you won't even acknowledge (let alone address) this point.
His intention was for you to present a verse which can then be applied to your concept of leadership, Imamah. I am only trying to speed up the argument. According to your own Imam (ra), contrary to what you want us to believe, this was not a "promotion" and the verse (if we go by your interpretation) necessitates that an Imam must first have attained prophethood.
I understand that fact and I fully accept it. In fact, when I send salawaat upon the Prophet (saw), I ask for the same blessings upon him (saw) and his aal as sent upon Ibrahim (asws) and his aal, something you do not do. However, coming back to our point of contention, when did your Imams (ra) attain prophethood to be promoted to being Imams because the verse (if I apply your understanding to it) makes prophethood a prerequisite for being an Imam?
I can assure you it is not from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah ;)
This is what the man asked in post #2,
"Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?"
That's all he asked for and I gave him a CLEAR AND CUT verse from the Qur'an about DIVINE LEADERSHIP.
I don't know why you're jumping up and down and what for. Calm down. He asked a simple question and I stepped forward and gave him a straight answer.
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I don't know why you're jumping up and down and what for. Calm down. He asked a simple question and I stepped forward and gave him a straight answer.
...and I want you to know that your answer actually disqualifies your own belief on leadership and successorship.
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ok ill debate you, topic about muawiya & al hasan ra. My question: if shia truly believe muslim should only be led by a just, pious muslim leader, how come that just, pious muslim leader officially helped and approved a tyrant, evil kafir (as per shia belief of course) to lead the muslim?
as-Salaamu alykum,
I wanted to actually do Imamah in the Qur'an, but I guess this'll do.
1) What is your definition of "led"? Just because an Imam doesn't lead politically, doesn't mean he doesn't lead spiritually. Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام led by teaching his true follower the real Islam and showed us how to deal with a situation to avoid maximum bloodshed; just like Imam Ali عليه السلام and Imam al-Husssayn عليه السلام did.
2) While Mu'awiyah was a kafir in the akhira, he's a Muslim in this world, and as such, should be treated that way.
3) Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام never "helped" Mu'awiyah, he only gave up his political right to avoid bloodshed, like his grandfather صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم did in the Treaty of Hudaybiah.
I leave the ball in your court.
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Asalam alaikum
Is there a clear verse on divine Imamate the ones shia follow,in the Quran? Anything that is clear as in praying,fasting,zakah and hajj.
Any clear verse if I was a non Muslim and read the Quran a verse specifically for such a station that I cannot refuse?
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as-Salaamu alykum,
I wanted to actually do Imamah in the Qur'an, but I guess this'll do.
1) What is your definition of "led"? Just because an Imam doesn't lead politically, doesn't mean he doesn't lead spiritually. Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام led by teaching his true follower the real Islam and showed us how to deal with a situation to avoid maximum bloodshed; just like Imam Ali عليه السلام and Imam al-Husssayn عليه السلام did.
Ok, if being a spiritual leader is enough then why the neverending condemnation of other khulafa? Shia 1000yr grudge shows that shia believe imam should be a leader of the nation too and shia clearly believe mahdi will be spiritual and political leader.
2) While Mu'awiyah was a kafir in the akhira, he's a Muslim in this world, and as such, should be treated that way.
Ibn Ubay was known for his hypocricy and he was the "royal" in Madina. Have you even seen him being given temporary political leading role in Madina? Not even in the most dire situation he was given that responsibility. So whose example is this giving leadership to someone you believe a kafir? Leave the word playing game out. Muawiya stance is known, according to shia, fight imam=major kufr. Id love to see Khamenei give up political leadership to king salman and see shia reaction 😀
3) Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام never "helped" Mu'awiyah, he only gave up his political right to avoid bloodshed, like his grandfather صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم did in the Treaty of Hudaybiah.
I leave the ball in your court.
This is just a repeating point. When did hudaybiya treaty includes a term that Madina having a leader who fight and killed Madinan? Apple & orange comparison is shia favourite game.
PS: i stopped here, i sound fake knowing who you are 😂😂😂
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as-Salaamu alykum,
I have been thinking about this for a while; but I sincerely believe I can do a way better job debating and defending the 12er madhhab than your average Shi'i, and I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm. Therefore, I got the idea that I would debate on here on the side of the 12er against anyone that would like to go.
So anyone want to have a go? I'll do any topic, but I think Imamah in the Qur'an is a good topic
I see you are in a "debate" already with someone: For one I think it should be a one-on-one debate. However beyond that I see it as difficult for you to act the part, since there are so many hidden (very negative) assumptions about us the Ummah of Islam which the other side harbors, and a very different view of what constitutes the fabric of reality itself, it is very difficult to act the part. The issue of "Imamah in the Quran" comes with so many layers of these suppositions, it is hard to see how any proper debate can be conducted on this matter.
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as-Salaamu alykum,
I wanted to actually do Imamah in the Qur'an, but I guess this'll do.
1) What is your definition of "led"? Just because an Imam doesn't lead politically, doesn't mean he doesn't lead spiritually. Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام led by teaching his true follower the real Islam and showed us how to deal with a situation to avoid maximum bloodshed; just like Imam Ali عليه السلام and Imam al-Husssayn عليه السلام did.
2) While Mu'awiyah was a kafir in the akhira, he's a Muslim in this world, and as such, should be treated that way.
3) Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام never "helped" Mu'awiyah, he only gave up his political right to avoid bloodshed, like his grandfather صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم did in the Treaty of Hudaybiah.
I leave the ball in your court.
Even though it is 'role-playing', I should say concerning Number #1 at least, the definition of 'led' in here is circular and useless: If the Infallible wages war and dies in battle, he is spiritually leading, that is understandable; but, if the Infallible makes a peace treaty and sits at home, only leaving to collect money from the usurpers, he is still spiritually leading; if the Infallible takes poison and kills himself like Hitler, he is still leading spiritually; if the Infallible is in hiding for centuries and does not make himself visibly known and a target for us "Nasibis" who would love to kill him, he is still leading; alas, this term means nothing in practical terms, the Twelver needs to try better.
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^
Concerning the second matter - of Muawiyah (RAA) being a Muslim in this world, a Kafir in the next- this is in fact a point in favor of the opponent of the Shia in one of several ways: If acknowledging the temporal rule of 'Imam Hasan' is necessary for salvation, then even Hasan himself did not acquiesce to this condition and did not uphold it, and he would be a Kafir in the next world, a point against the Shias. If rather no, it is not necessary for salvation, then this was the position of the opponent from the beginning and again the matter is decided in his favor. If the issue is due to political expediency, then the actions and words of the 'Infallible Imam' are of consequence and have no intrinsic meaning since they can be interpreted and reinterpreted ad infinitum, they can provide no salvation or guidance of any kind. This can even be extended to things like 'Ghadeer' or 'Thaqalayn', the opponent will simply say "The Prophet maybe said these things out a political compulsion from his original tribe, but they are really of no consequence either in terms of following or even respecting his family"
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as-Salaamu alykum,
I have been thinking about this for a while; but I sincerely believe I can do a way better job debating and defending the 12er madhhab than your average Shi'i, and I strongly dislike a lot of the Sunni polemics against Shi'asm. Therefore, I got the idea that I would debate on here on the side of the 12er against anyone that would like to go.
So anyone want to have a go? I'll do any topic, but I think Imamah in the Qur'an is a good topic
I'll debate you, but not on the forum because it is too hectic. I think it will be better if we debate through email. Let me know what you think.
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Asalam alaikum could a shia give a clear verse from the Quran on divine leadership?
And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.
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And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.
You been busted for being a switch on & off Quranist when it suits you.
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You been busted for being a switch on & off Quranist when it suits you.
😊 I don't go by what suits me, that's your stance. 😊
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And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.
It has nothing to do with being a QUR'ANIST. We ask for a single clear and unambiguous verse from the quran that talks about the shia concept of imama. This is because the imama is one of the shia's basic beliefs and is so important to them, to the point where they make duaa to Ali (RA), so there should be such a verse in the quran. If it was so important, why wouldn't Allah (SWT) mention it in the quran?
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It has nothing to do with being a QUR'ANIST. We ask for a single clear and unambiguous verse from the quran that talks about the shia concept of imama. This is because the imama is one of the shia's basic beliefs and is so important to them, to the point where they make duaa to Ali (RA), so there should be such a verse in the quran. If it was so important, why wouldn't Allah (SWT) mention it in the quran?
ABSOLUTELY, you have every right to think then ask as such. But in return you must allow exactly the same right to others. Allow me to explain and give you an example.
Zakah is also very important. If you don't give Zakah does any Caliph or ruler have the right to order your execution and would that be seen as a decision based on Shariah law.
This is also a very serious matter. If the answer is YES then this must come from Allah and therefore has to be in the Qur'an.
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And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.
Quranist? Have you missed your medication again?
Wasn’t it ameen aka icepop man who wanted to know zakah punishment just from Quran?
You are slithering all over the place lol.
I challenged you on divinity imarmite months ago and you couldn’t give me ANY evidence from the Quran yourself.
So......go do one until you find it in the Quran then come back
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Quranist? Have you missed your medication again?
Wasn’t it ameen aka icepop man who wanted to know zakah punishment just from Quran?
You are slithering all over the place lol.
I challenged you on divinity imarmite months ago and you couldn’t give me ANY evidence from the Quran yourself.
So......go do one until you find it in the Quran then come back
As you can clearly see viewers still no answer. They can't even touch the matter. Do you give Zakah or do you take it? If you refuse to give it are you subject to capital punishment? Your execution would that be based on Shariah law or government law?
Yes Zakah collectors were appointed by which ever Caliph but it's your choice to give Zakah to whom you want and wish. And I can very easily prove this from the QUR'AN if asked. I wouldn't need to dance around it if asked.
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And here's the proof straight from the Qur'an without even being asked to deliver it.
The Eight Kinds of People Who Receive Zakat
The Eight Kinds of People Who Receive Zakat
Congratulations! You are getting ready to pay your zakat!
But wait. Who can receive your zakat? And who makes that decision?
The answer is easy: Zakat can be paid to deserving individuals or groups who fall into one or more of eight zakatable categories designated by God in the Quran.
Indeed, [prescribed] charitable offerings are only [to be given] to the poor and the indigent, and to those who work on [administering] it, and to those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to [free] those in bondage, and to the debt-ridden, and for the cause of God, and to the wayfarer. [This is] an obligation from God. And God is all-knowing, all-wise. – Al-Tawbah, 9:60
The Quran specifies how zakat is to be distributed precisely, but grants Muslims flexibility in its payment. This guarantees the right of the needful while accommodating changes in how wealth is stored, how money is best distributed, and how different cultures change over time. The Quran also makes it possible for Muslims to pay their zakat to trusted institutions that distribute it to those who belong to one or more of the zakat-worthy categories.
It is noteworthy that God Himself identified for zakat payers and administrators the eight categories for zakat disbursement. This determination is not up to the government, scholars, or even the Prophet himself. It is reported that a man once came to the Prophet and asked him zakat.
The Prophet said: Allah permitted not even a prophet to adjudge zakat[-worthiness]. Rather, He Himself ruled on it and permitted it in eight cases. Therefore, if you belong to any of these, I shall most surely give you your right. – Abû Dâ’ûd
So, where can your zakat go?
1. The poor (al-fuqarâ’), meaning low-income or indigent.
2. The needy (al-masâkîn), meaning someone who is in difficulty.
3. Zakat administrators.
4. Those whose hearts are to be reconciled, meaning new Muslims and friends of the Muslim community.
5. Those in bondage (slaves and captives.
6. The debt-ridden.
7. In the cause of God.
8. The wayfarer, meaning those who are stranded or traveling with few resources.
While zakat is not the only form of charity in Islam, it is so important that it was made the Third Pillar. Through zakat the prosperous can uplift the poor, help those who are troubled and comfort those who are in hardship.
The law of zakat establishes the rights of the poor to support and help, and releases those who are held captive as slaves or as debtors. Zakat has the power to change the world. But it starts with you paying it.
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Point to be noted;
"Zakat can be paid to deserving individuals or groups who fall into one or more of eight zakatable categories designated by God in the Quran."
Did you notice the words "DESIGNATED BY ALLAH" Not by Caliphs or rulers but by Allah.
Indeed, [prescribed] charitable offerings are only [to be given] to the poor and the indigent, and to those who work on [administering] it, and to those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to [free] those in bondage, and to the debt-ridden, and for the cause of God, and to the wayfarer. [This is] an obligation from God. And God is all-knowing, all-wise. – Al-Tawbah, 9:60
Now for argumental reasons lets accept that a Caliph/ruler has appointed someone to collect Zakah then that's ok but the people still have a choice on who to give Zakah out of the designated 8, right? Or does the appointee have the right to take this choice away from the people and say "no you only pay Zakah to me or you'll be executed"?
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As you can clearly see viewers still no answer. They can't even touch the matter. Do you give Zakah or do you take it? If you refuse to give it are you subject to capital punishment? Your execution would that be based on Shariah law or government law?
Yes Zakah collectors were appointed by which ever Caliph but it's your choice to give Zakah to whom you want and wish. And I can very easily prove this from the QUR'AN if asked. I wouldn't need to dance around it if asked.
The thing is........you cannot find a proof of Imamate a major pillar of faith in shiism and yet you want proof of punishment on non zakah payers???
Come on iceman zakah should be the least of your problems
Do sit down with a chai and THINK!
Learn to walk before you run.......your falling all over the place😜
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The thing is........you cannot find a proof of Imamate a major pillar of faith in shiism and yet you want proof of punishment on non zakah payers???
Come on iceman zakah should be the least of your problems
Do sit down with a chai and THINK!
Learn to walk before you run.......your falling all over the place😜
😊 We're not discussing Imamah, you keep bringing this up because you can't answer or address what we're discussing 😀
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ABSOLUTELY, you have every right to think then ask as such. But in return you must allow exactly the same right to others. Allow me to explain and give you an example.
Zakah is also very important. If you don't give Zakah does any Caliph or ruler have the right to order your execution and would that be seen as a decision based on Shariah law.
This is also a very serious matter. If the answer is YES then this must come from Allah and therefore has to be in the Qur'an.
There is a very clear verse about Zakah. Allah (SWT) says: "And establish prayer and give zakah and bow with those who bow [in worship and obedience] (2:43)."
Now it's your turn to give us one such verse about Imama.
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There is a very clear verse about Zakah. Allah (SWT) says: "And establish prayer and give zakah and bow with those who bow [in worship and obedience] (2:43)."
Now it's your turn to give us one such verse about Imama.
What is Islam and Shariah law according to you? Just Qur'an or Qur'an and Sunnah?
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What is Islam and Shariah law according to you? Just Qur'an or Qur'an and Sunnah?
Quran and Sunnah. But the main principles of my beliefs (Salah, Zakah, etc.) are in the Quran. My question is that if you believe the Imama is so important, then why have you still been unable to provide a single unambiguous and clear verse from the Quran regarding the twelve "divine" imams?
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Quran and Sunnah. But the main principles of my beliefs (Salah, Zakah, etc.) are in the Quran. My question is that if you believe the Imama is so important, then why have you still been unable to provide a single unambiguous and clear verse from the Quran regarding the twelve "divine" imams?
Where does it say that Imamah or anything else from our side needs to be proven and established from and only the Qur'an? Do you know what our faith and belief is and why we're a little different. I'll explain to you why if you want me to.
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Where does it say that Imamah or anything else from our side needs to be proven and established from and only the Qur'an? Do you know what our faith and belief is and why we're a little different. I'll explain to you why if you want me to.
I never said it needs to only be from the Quran. I said that it has to at least be in the Quran. If one of your fundamentals is not even mentioned in the Quran, how can you assert its importance in the religion?
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Where does it say that Imamah or anything else from our side needs to be proven and established from and only the Qur'an? Do you know what our faith and belief is and why we're a little different. I'll explain to you why if you want me to.
Right so Abu Bakrs (may Allah be pleased with him) zakat policy has to be proven from Quran only? (the root issue itself -zakat is clear cut in the Quran).
You’re a joke.
Look at you crying saying you don’t need to prove it from Quran. Even though you do as its the MAIN pillar of your sect.
Pathetic & lost soul.
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ABSOLUTELY, you have every right to think then ask as such. But in return you must allow exactly the same right to others. Allow me to explain and give you an example.
Zakah is also very important. If you don't give Zakah does any Caliph or ruler have the right to order your execution and would that be seen as a decision based on Shariah law.
This is also a very serious matter. If the answer is YES then this must come from Allah and therefore has to be in the Qur'an.
Where does it say that Imamah or anything else from our side needs to be proven and established from and only the Qur'an? Do you know what our faith and belief is and why we're a little different. I'll explain to you why if you want me to.
In conclusion, imamah is not a serious matter since it doesn't need to be proven and established from the Quran.
Hahaha... I love this guy...
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Iceman. If you're not going to reply with a verse, then you might as well just not reply.
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Right so Abu Bakrs (may Allah be pleased with him) zakat policy has to be proven from Quran only? (the root issue itself -zakat is clear cut in the Quran).
You’re a joke.
Look at you crying saying you don’t need to prove it from Quran. Even though you do as its the MAIN pillar of your sect.
Pathetic & lost soul.
Are you still a spoiled child or just haven't been disciplined from day one? I asked time and time again that was Abu Bakr bin Kuafah's decision and Khaled bin Waleed's actions according to government rule or Shariah law.
Does the Caliph have the Islamic right to employ people and force them to collect Zakah. If you don't give Zakah then according to Islam are you supposed to be executed. That's all I asked and it started to kill you.
So look at these questions and then in the mirror and you'll realise who's pathetic and has a lost soul. You alone with a few others really need to watch that filthy mouth of yours.
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In conclusion, imamah is not a serious matter since it doesn't need to be proven and established from the Quran.
Hahaha... I love this guy...
What, are we playing dumb here. I said "if the answer is yes then it needs to be proven from the Qur'an or there should be at least some indication in the Qur'an"
that Caliphs/rulers have the Islamic right to employ people to collect Zakah by force and who refuses to give or pay Zakah will be executed according to Islamic rule.
As far as Imamah is concerned, I've asked a question based on the thread and on what we're discussing and you start flying Imamah all over the place because you can't answer.
If you can't answer then just admit it and move on to Imamah or what ever. That's the way forward.
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Quran and Sunnah. But the main principles of my beliefs (Salah, Zakah, etc.) are in the Quran. My question is that if you believe the Imama is so important, then why have you still been unable to provide a single unambiguous and clear verse from the Quran regarding the twelve "divine" imams?
What you've asked is something that doesn't have a clear, simple and straightforward answer. Some questions are answered with a yes or no and some need detailed explanation. Some questions are asked due to lack of knowledge and understanding and the question of Shia Imamah is one of those issues.
We can start from the beginning if that's ok with you and you're willing to go ahead. Although this is irrelevant to the thread and what we're discussing but I don't want to use this as an excuse and I don't need to for not answering and explaining. If you still want to go ahead then let me know.
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What you've asked is something that doesn't have a clear, simple and straightforward answer. Some questions are answered with a yes or no and some need detailed explanation. Some questions are asked due to lack of knowledge and understanding and the question of Shia Imamah is one of those issues.
We can start from the beginning if that's ok with you and you're willing to go ahead. Although this is irrelevant to the thread and what we're discussing but I don't want to use this as an excuse and I don't need to for not answering and explaining. If you still want to go ahead then let me know.
Just answer this: is there a clear and unambiguous verse about the Imamah in the Quran or not?
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Just answer this: is there a clear and unambiguous verse about the Imamah in the Quran or not?
Absolutely yes there is, not just one but many that clearly lindicate Imamah is a stage created by Allah and he alone decides on selecting/electing/making Imams. And below is the verse,
"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with His commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: I have appointed you an Imam for mankind. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? He said: My covenant includes not the unjust."
(Surah al Baqarah, 2:124) -
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Absolutely yes there is, not just one but many that clearly lindicate Imamah is a stage created by Allah and he alone decides on selecting/electing/making Imams. And below is the verse,
"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with His commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: I have appointed you an Imam for mankind. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? He said: My covenant includes not the unjust."
(Surah al Baqarah, 2:124) -
- This verse does not clearly refer to the twelve divine Imams
- Even if this verse was clearly talking about the Imamah, it would mean that Ibrahim (AS) was one of the twelve Imams, which isn't true
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- This verse does not clearly refer to the twelve divine Imams
- Even if this verse was clearly talking about the Imamah, it would mean that Ibrahim (AS) was one of the twelve Imams, which isn't true
The question of IMAMAH that is there such a title/grade/stage/level you name it. The answer is YES THERE IS and there are numerous verses and places in the Qur'an that speak about IMAMAH as well as CALIPHATE.
We Shias believe that just as NABUWAT and RISALAT are from Allah so are IMAMAT and CALIPHATE. And there are clear and cut verses that mention Allah alone chooses and makes IMAMS and CALIPHAS.
As far as this question goes that is there a clear and cut verse in the Qur'an that clearly mentions and speaks about the 12 Shia Imams and there reign after Muhammad s.a.w the answer is NO.
WHY? Because we all would be believers (Momin) without a choice and definitely without test and trial. Allah gives signs but also leaves room for those who want to think and do otherwise.
This is what it's all about. Just two examples out of many. Why did Allah leave it so long and then sent Muhammad s.a.w to the Christians to tell them that Jesus wasn't crucified? In fact this is what happened to him.
Why didn't Allah make it easy and simple and just mentioned it in the Bible to make the Christians aware in advance and keep them on track.
Despite the Qur'an and Sunnah what did Muhammad s.a.w say near enough to his last days? He asked for a pen and paper so he may right something for his people so they not go astray after him. I believe something was said along those lines.
What does this tell us? That despite Qur'an and Sunnah there is still something short and less and without it the Ummah can go astray. If we think with an open mind only then we can work towards reality and facts.
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What, are we playing dumb here. I said "if the answer is yes then it needs to be proven from the Qur'an or there should be at least some indication in the Qur'an"
that Caliphs/rulers have the Islamic right to employ people to collect Zakah by force and who refuses to give or pay Zakah will be executed according to Islamic rule.
As far as Imamah is concerned, I've asked a question based on the thread and on what we're discussing and you start flying Imamah all over the place because you can't answer.
If you can't answer then just admit it and move on to Imamah or what ever. That's the way forward.
Lets play a fun game called iceman refuting iceman.
So iceman split 1 personality writes the above.
Iceman split personality 2 replies (taken from iceman reply further down a post or two):
“What you've asked is something that doesn't have a clear, simple and straightforward answer. Some questions are answered with a yes or no and some need detailed explanation. “
In previous rounds of Iceman vs Iceman:
Iceman split personality 1 asks proof from Quran only.
Iceman split personality 2 replies not all is in Quran as sharia is Quran AND sunnah.
To be continued no doubt....
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The question of IMAMAH that is there such a title/grade/stage/level you name it. The answer is YES THERE IS and there are numerous verses and places in the Qur'an that speak about IMAMAH as well as CALIPHATE.
We Shias believe that just as NABUWAT and RISALAT are from Allah so are IMAMAT and CALIPHATE. And there are clear and cut verses that mention Allah alone chooses and makes IMAMS and CALIPHAS.
As far as this question goes that is there a clear and cut verse in the Qur'an that clearly mentions and speaks about the 12 Shia Imams and there reign after Muhammad s.a.w the answer is NO.
WHY? Because we all would be believers (Momin) without a choice and definitely without test and trial. Allah gives signs but also leaves room for those who want to think and do otherwise.
This is what it's all about. Just two examples out of many. Why did Allah leave it so long and then sent Muhammad s.a.w to the Christians to tell them that Jesus wasn't crucified? In fact this is what happened to him.
Why didn't Allah make it easy and simple and just mentioned it in the Bible to make the Christians aware in advance and keep them on track.
Despite the Qur'an and Sunnah what did Muhammad s.a.w say near enough to his last days? He asked for a pen and paper so he may right something for his people so they not go astray after him. I believe something was said along those lines.
What does this tell us? That despite Qur'an and Sunnah there is still something short and less and without it the Ummah can go astray. If we think with an open mind only then we can work towards reality and facts.
- So Allah (SWT) decided to leave out something from the Quran that decides whether or not we are believers? That's nonsense. Even if Allah (SWT) had put it in the Quran, we would still have the choice to believe in it or not.
- It is quite clear from the Bible that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified. Deuteronomy 21:23 says: "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse". Jesus (AS) could not have been cursed. Also, even if there wasn't anything in the Bible that proved that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified, it wouldn't have mattered because the Bible has been changed and altered. So unless you believe that the Quran has also been changed and altered, there must be a clear proof from the Quran about the twelve Imams.
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- So Allah (SWT) decided to leave out something from the Quran that decides whether or not we are believers? That's nonsense. Even if Allah (SWT) had put it in the Quran, we would still have the choice to believe in it or not.
- It is quite clear from the Bible that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified. Deuteronomy 21:23 says: "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse". Jesus (AS) could not have been cursed. Also, even if there wasn't anything in the Bible that proved that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified, it wouldn't have mattered because the Bible has been changed and altered. So unless you believe that the Quran has also been changed and altered, there must be a clear proof from the Quran about the twelve Imams.
You have two words and stages of belief; 1, Muslim. 2, Momin. Do you believe they're both and mean the same?
Let me tell you what Allah has to say.
Surah Al Hujurat (49:14)
"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
Allah has never let anything out but it is us (we and you) that decide what should be in or out or why isn't this over here or over there. It shouldn't be as such.
No, if something is in black and white then you don't have a choice. The only choice you have is to either accept or reject. If you accept then you're in but if you reject then you're out.
But the trial and test is to offer and see, just as the Muhammed s.a.w asked for pen and paper and gave a clear reason to why. Those who were in favour were in but those who opposed were also in but their intentions came clear.
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You have two words and stages of belief; 1, Muslim. 2, Momin. Do you believe they're both and mean the same?
Let me tell you what Allah has to say.
Surah Al Hujurat (49:14)
"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
Allah has never let anything out but it is us (we and you) that decide what should be in or out or why isn't this over here or over there. It shouldn't be as such.
No, if something is in black and white then you don't have a choice. The only choice you have is to either accept or reject. If you accept then you're in but if you reject then you're out.
But the trial and test is to offer and see, just as the Muhammed s.a.w asked for pen and paper and gave a clear reason to why. Those who were in favour were in but those who opposed were also in but their intentions came clear.
Okay. I'm done talking to you. Your logic makes absolutely no sense.
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Okay. I'm done talking to you. Your logic makes absolutely no sense.
[/quote
Ask yourself this, did Muhammad s.a.w ask for a pen and paper? Why did he ask for a pen and paper? So he may right something for them (people of the time, Azwaaj, Asshaab, family, relatives, friends etc). Right what and what for? Something that they will not go astray after him s.a.w.
one can say well this sounds important, in fact it sounds very important but if it was that important then why isn't it in the Qur'an?
See what I mean? You can start asking yourself that, we have Qur'an and Sunnah then what was the need for what he s.a.w wanted to right? Surely if it was that important then Allah would have it in the Qur'an? Because it's not in the Qur'an then surely it's not that important? You can go on and on and on.
The bottom line is you need this type of discussion to think openly. What's important, QUR'AN or MUHAMMAD S.A.W? It's obvious both are important. But which one would you put first? QUR'AN or MUHAMMAD S.A.W?
Think about it but a point to be noted, when Muhammad s.a.w asked for the pen and paper and gave the reason why a person objected. He put the Qur'an first by saying "the book of Allah is enough for us". He made his position clear by saying this and many others sided with him.
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- So Allah (SWT) decided to leave out something from the Quran that decides whether or not we are believers? That's nonsense. Even if Allah (SWT) had put it in the Quran, we would still have the choice to believe in it or not.
- It is quite clear from the Bible that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified. Deuteronomy 21:23 says: "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse". Jesus (AS) could not have been cursed. Also, even if there wasn't anything in the Bible that proved that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified, it wouldn't have mattered because the Bible has been changed and altered. So unless you believe that the Quran has also been changed and altered, there must be a clear proof from the Quran about the twelve Imams.
What proof do you have that the Bible was changed and altered and why? Bible is also a holy book and scripture just like the Qur'an, are you saying that the Qur'an couldn't be changed and altered but Bible has been? Why? Allah is protecting one holy scripture but didn't bother with the other? Doesn't make any sense. All scriptures are holy and should be protected.
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In conclusion, imamah is not a serious matter since it doesn't need to be proven and established from the Quran.
Hahaha... I love this guy...
If Imamah is a serious matter, which I'm sure it is and you would agree to it, then it most definitely needs to be proven from the Qur'an and the Qur'an only according to your terms, logic and ideology. I mean your kind and likes have been banging on about this for God knows how long.
Now I turn around and ask you to provide evidence from the Qur'an about something equally serious and important according to your own ideology and thinking (not mine) and you start jumping up and down over it 😊 This is what its all about.
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And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.
Lol it’s not my fault Allah swt didn’t put the main article of faith for Shiites in the Quran........you can only find it in unauthentic works instead.
Even a bigger pity is you when I asked you to find it for us in the Quran and till this day you cannot find imarmite but you will find shura that beats imarmite for the simple fact that it’s MENTIONED in the Quran.
Game set and match.............still waiting IF you do find it, and IF you do am still here in this forum I ain’t gonna go into hiding cos I am scared lol.......good luck chuck😜👍👍
Get help from them vids of Sunnis you have been posting too😜😜😜
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Lol it’s not my fault Allah swt didn’t put the main article of faith for Shiites in the Quran........you can only find it in unauthentic works instead.
Even a bigger pity is you when I asked you to find it for us in the Quran and till this day you cannot find imarmite but you will find shura that beats imarmite for the simple fact that it’s MENTIONED in the Quran.
Game set and match.............still waiting IF you do find it, and IF you do am still here in this forum I ain’t gonna go into hiding cos I am scared lol.......good luck chuck😜👍👍
Get help from them vids of Sunnis you have been posting too😜😜😜
Well I'm pretty well sure you won't go into hiding when it comes to demanding Imamah from the Qur'an, when it's been proven time and time again but not according to your will, wish and desire. But you definitely will go into hiding after you've finished running when you're expected to deliver on exactly the same basis and ground as you demand.
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If Imamah is a serious matter, which I'm sure it is and you would agree to it, then it most definitely needs to be proven from the Qur'an and the Qur'an only according to your terms, logic and ideology. I mean your kind and likes have been banging on about this for God knows how long.
Now I turn around and ask you to provide evidence from the Qur'an about something equally serious and important according to your own ideology and thinking (not mine) and you start jumping up and down over it 😊 This is what its all about.
Zakah is mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
Imamah of your 12 Imams isn’t.
As for the details of zakat collection, its not the Quran as the method of prayer isn’t (but prayer is explicitly mentioned).
The finer details are found in the Sunnah & Ali understood it well😃
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Well I'm pretty well sure you won't go into hiding when it comes to demanding Imamah from the Qur'an, when it's been proven time and time again but not according to your will, wish and desire. But you definitely will go into hiding after you've finished running when you're expected to deliver on exactly the same basis and ground as you demand.
EMPTY words or in other words all FULL OF HOT AIR......come on icepop you must have something of substance to back imarmite from Quran......remember SHURA is backed up by Quran but imarmite is not.......is it hiding so only the Shiites can see it?😂
Foolish people offer challenges which they can’t keep.......and imarmite has definitely got you lot FOOLED😂😂
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Zakah is mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
Imamah of your 12 Imams isn’t.
As for the details of zakat collection, its not the Quran as the method of prayer isn’t (but prayer is explicitly mentioned).
The finer details are found in the Sunnah & Ali understood it well😃
"Zakah is mentioned explicitly in the Quran. Imamah of your 12 Imams isn’t"
Just as Zakah is mentioned in the Qur'an so is Imamah. The finer details are found in the Sunnah & only Ali and his Shia understood it well
You've just said it for me. 😃
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EMPTY words or in other words all FULL OF HOT AIR......come on icepop you must have something of substance to back imarmite from Quran......remember SHURA is backed up by Quran but imarmite is not.......is it hiding so only the Shiites can see it?😂
Foolish people offer challenges which they can’t keep.......and imarmite has definitely got you lot FOOLED😂😂
I've already backed Imamah from the Qur'an and it's been done numerous times over. Now if your arrogance and blindness does allow you to accept it then that's not my fault or problem.
Imamah has been mentioned in the Qur'an and the finer details are in the Sunnah. It's clear why you're having problems acknowledging and accepting it because if you do then Saqifa goes straight out of the window.
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I've already backed Imamah from the Qur'an and it's been done numerous times over. Now if your arrogance and blindness does allow you to accept it then that's not my fault or problem.
Imamah has been mentioned in the Qur'an and the finer details are in the Sunnah. It's clear why you're having problems acknowledging and accepting it because if you do then Saqifa goes straight out of the window.
NO you have NOT, NOR have you EVER proved it........NO concept, idea or even an inkling of any smell of divine Imamate in Quran hence you are still here talking mumbo jumbo......a main pillar of Shiite faith at best is a GUESS, the verses you posted have nothing to do with Imamate even then you post bits and disregard the rest of the verses, infact there is NO fine detail in sunnah either......our sunnah not your fairytale sunnah that has no authenticity
And you can only call people arrogant and blind cos you have NOTHING else to back up your claim of divine Imamate
What a pity the actions at saqifa is mentioned......SHURA
Running around and around around but no mention of it from the Almighty or the greatest prophet saw, yet you insist it’s there just like the hidden imam you say he is here hiding but there is no proof of such..........double whammy for you mate
You will NEVER prove imarmite.......EVER.....as can be seen by your abysmal answers😂
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NO you have NOT, NOR have you EVER proved it........NO concept, idea or even an inkling of any smell of divine Imamate in Quran hence you are still here talking mumbo jumbo......a main pillar of Shiite faith at best is a GUESS, the verses you posted have nothing to do with Imamate even then you post bits and disregard the rest of the verses, infact there is NO fine detail in sunnah either......our sunnah not your fairytale sunnah that has no authenticity
And you can only call people arrogant and blind cos you have NOTHING else to back up your claim of divine Imamate
What a pity the actions at saqifa is mentioned......SHURA
Running around and around around but no mention of it from the Almighty or the greatest prophet saw, yet you insist it’s there just like the hidden imam you say he is here hiding but there is no proof of such..........double whammy for you mate
You will NEVER prove imarmite.......EVER.....as can be seen by your abysmal answers😂
😀 Here it is once again just for your eyes only,
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
This is more than enough for any sane person to know and understand that there is a grade/title that is known and recognised as Imamah and Allah alone chooses and makes Imams.
This is absolute and solid proof of Imamah. Now will there be Imams after Muhammad s.a.w or will Muhammad s.a.w choose his successor is down to Muhammad s.a.w himself. This bit has to do with Sunnah.
If you even try to look in this direction with a little bit of logic and sense and a bit of open mind then it is absolutely obvious that Saqifa and the immature and coincidental decision reached will surely be under threat. That's what's keeping you.
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"Zakah is mentioned explicitly in the Quran. Imamah of your 12 Imams isn’t"
Just as Zakah is mentioned in the Qur'an so is Imamah. The finer details are found in the Sunnah & only Ali and his Shia understood it well
You've just said it for me. 😃
Look up the word ‘explicitly’.
English is obviously not your first language.
NOWHERE is Imamate of your 12 Imams mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
Zakat on the other hand is explicitly mentioned.
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Look up the word ‘explicitly’.
English is obviously not your first language.
NOWHERE is Imamate of your 12 Imams mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
Zakat on the other hand is explicitly mentioned.
Is Imamah mentioned in the Qur'an or not? Is there such a status as Imamah just as Nabuwah and Risalah? Does Allah choose and make Imams or not? Has Allah not mentioned in the Qur'an that he choose and made Imams? How many questions would you like me to hit you with? Imamah has been mentioned in the Qur'an and there have been Imams chosen and made in the past. Now from here just tell me that the Prophet's s.a.w word ain't good enough and acceptable for you. Well nothing would be acceptable for you again because SAQIFA SHATTERS, BREAKS THEN CRUMBLES. That's what bothers you.
It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).
According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:
“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”
“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”
According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
The number 12 has been repeatedly used in all. Not any other number but just 12. You're probably going to call it a coincidence?
"English is obviously not your first language"
Knowledge and information clearly isn't your thing.
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Is Imamah mentioned in the Qur'an or not? Is there such a status as Imamah just as Nabuwah and Risalah? Does Allah choose and make Imams or not? Has Allah not mentioned in the Qur'an that he choose and made Imams? How many questions would you like me to hit you with? Imamah has been mentioned in the Qur'an and there have been Imams chosen and made in the past. Now from here just tell me that the Prophet's s.a.w word ain't good enough and acceptable for you. Well nothing would be acceptable for you again because SAQIFA SHATTERS, BREAKS THEN CRUMBLES. That's what bothers you.
It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).
According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:
“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”
“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”
According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
The number 12 has been repeatedly used in all. Not any other number but just 12. You're probably going to call it a coincidence?
"English is obviously not your first language"
Knowledge and information clearly isn't your thing.
Again, clearly you’re not well versed in the English language.
At best, everything you mentioned in the Quran is implicit & NOT EXPLICIT AT ALL.
You failed again.
There is not one single explicit reference to the Imamate of your 12 Imams in the Quran.
Zakat on the other hand is clearly & explicitly mentioned numerous times.
The finer details of Zakat collection (like the finer details on how to pray) are to be found in the sunnah, with Ali ENFORCING ITS COLLECTION just like Abu Bakr.
You think you understand the Quran more than Ali. Your arrogance has made you oppose your own no.1 Imam.
Such is the disgrace thats fallen on you.
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Again, clearly you’re not well versed in the English language.
At best, everything you mentioned in the Quran is implicit & NOT EXPLICIT AT ALL.
You failed again.
There is not one single explicit reference to the Imamate of your 12 Imams in the Quran.
Zakat on the other hand is clearly & explicitly mentioned numerous times.
The finer details of Zakat collection (like the finer details on how to pray) are to be found in the sunnah, with Ali ENFORCING ITS COLLECTION just like Abu Bakr.
You think you understand the Quran more than Ali. Your arrogance has made you oppose your own no.1 Imam.
Such is the disgrace thats fallen on you.
And again you are dancing around the subject under discussion. Imamah has clearly been proven from the Qur'an that there is such thing as Imamah and has been from Allah. What happens after the Prophet s.a.w and the finer details lie with Muhammad s.a.w himself and he has clearly clarified them and what is going to happen after him s.a.w .
Zakat along with fasting and prayers have been mentioned and the finer details rest with Muhammad s.a.w. The same applies to Imamah.
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😀 Here it is once again just for your eyes only,
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
This is more than enough for any sane person to know and understand that there is a grade/title that is known and recognised as Imamah and Allah alone chooses and makes Imams.
This is absolute and solid proof of Imamah. Now will there be Imams after Muhammad s.a.w or will Muhammad s.a.w choose his successor is down to Muhammad s.a.w himself. This bit has to do with Sunnah.
If you even try to look in this direction with a little bit of logic and sense and a bit of open mind then it is absolutely obvious that Saqifa and the immature and coincidental decision reached will surely be under threat. That's what's keeping you.
Yes Allah swt MADE Ibrahim as an IMAM......A Leader promised by Allah swt to His prophet and His offspring were leaders through ishaq as and Ishmael as, it’s known history.
Where is the concept of divine leadership/Imamate? How come Allah swt left that main bit out?
The above verse in no way insinuates or says anything about divine leadership, the above verse you quoted is talking about a ......NABI .......were any ahle baith ra after prophet saw NABIS?
You call the above solid proof? Allah swt made Ibrahim as an imam a leader as it says in the Quran.......not gave him divine leadership, Come on iceman is that all you got?
Using a verse for a prophet of Allah swt and using it for an unknown concept.....divine Imamate?
You have to explain clearer than that mate no wonder shiism hasn’t grown or will ever grow cos you are using verses like this to prove an alien concept that doesn’t even exist.
No point going to sunnah for the moment you need to clearly find the divinity Imamate concept CLEAR from the Quran so as Muslims we can follow.
You cannot move past imarmite forget saqifa ibn Saba has really fooled you guys and your stuck like a broken record using the same verses repeating the same mantra that doesn’t even add up.
😂
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And again you are dancing around the subject under discussion. Imamah has clearly been proven from the Qur'an that there is such thing as Imamah and has been from Allah. What happens after the Prophet s.a.w and the finer details lie with Muhammad s.a.w himself and he has clearly clarified them and what is going to happen after him s.a.w .
Zakat along with fasting and prayers have been mentioned and the finer details rest with Muhammad s.a.w. The same applies to Imamah.
FAIL.
I searched whole Quran & nothing there about your 12 Imams.
You still don’t know the meaning of the world EXPLICIT!
Will you ever stop embarassing yourself.
You want proof of a secondary branch issue (zakat collection policy, the primary branch being zakat which is clear in Quran), yet you can’t provide proof of your primary belief of Imamate of 12 Imams from the Quran.
Complete FAIL.
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Yes Allah swt MADE Ibrahim as an IMAM......A Leader promised by Allah swt to His prophet and His offspring were leaders through ishaq as and Ishmael as, it’s known history.
Where is the concept of divine leadership/Imamate? How come Allah swt left that main bit out?
The above verse in no way insinuates or says anything about divine leadership, the above verse you quoted is talking about a ......NABI .......were any ahle baith ra after prophet saw NABIS?
You call the above solid proof? Allah swt made Ibrahim as an imam a leader as it says in the Quran.......not gave him divine leadership, Come on iceman is that all you got?
Using a verse for a prophet of Allah swt and using it for an unknown concept.....divine Imamate?
You have to explain clearer than that mate no wonder shiism hasn’t grown or will ever grow cos you are using verses like this to prove an alien concept that doesn’t even exist.
No point going to sunnah for the moment you need to clearly find the divinity Imamate concept CLEAR from the Quran so as Muslims we can follow.
You cannot move past imarmite forget saqifa ibn Saba has really fooled you guys and your stuck like a broken record using the same verses repeating the same mantra that doesn’t even add up.
😂
Abraham was already a Messenger and a Prophet, so aren't Messengers and Prophets leaders as well? After Abraham was tested, trialed by his Lord (after this) he was made an IMAM of the people. Was he not a leader before he was made an Imam, if you translate Imam as just a leader?
Come on, lets wake up and be reasonable about this. Just as Nabuwah and Risalah are God created titles and grades, Caliphate and Imamah are also God created titles and grades. Adam was made a Caliph on earth and Abraham was made an Imam of the people.
One or two examples are more than enough for the intelligent and wise to understand.
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Abraham was already a Messenger and a Prophet, so aren't Messengers and Prophets leaders as well? After Abraham was tested, trialed by his Lord (after this) he was made an IMAM of the people. Was he not a leader before he was made an Imam, if you translate Imam as just a leader?
Come on, lets wake up and be reasonable about this. Just as Nabuwah and Risalah are God created titles and grades, Caliphate and Imamah are also God created titles and grades. Adam was made a Caliph on earth and Abraham was made an Imam of the people.
One or two examples are more than enough for the intelligent and wise to understand.
Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)
1) Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran
2) prophethood Allah swt chooses, leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet
Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?
Your not one of them who believes imams are higher than prophets apart from prophet saw😳......are you?🙃
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Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)
1) Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran
2) prophethood Allah swt chooses, leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet
Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?
Your not one of them who believes imams are higher than prophets apart from prophet saw😳......are you?🙃
"Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)"
One step at a time. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or do you think he was given a title of a similar level?
Is Nabuwah above and higher than Imamah, if it is then Abraham was demoted. If Imamah is above and higher than Nabuwah then it is obvious that Abraham was promoted. You tell me? Come on and give it a try. Don't be hesitant and shy.
"Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran"
Where does it say that you have to be a Prophet before you can be an Imam or Caliph. Why do you want evidence only and just from the Qur'an? Are you a QUR'ANIST? If I ask you to provide something from the Qur'an you start jumping up and down. If I ask you to explain yourselves you start dancing around. Make up your mind, do you just and only want to stick to the Qur'an, then you better start delivering.
"prophethood Allah swt chooses, leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet
Allah choose the Ahlul Bayth as guides to govern after Muhammad s.a.w. And Muhammad s.a.w clearly stated the following,
It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).
According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:
“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”
“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”
According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
"Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?
He wasn't a Prophet because you don't have to be Prophet to be an Imam or Caliph.
Take a note of this;
وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ.
And we made of them Imams to guide by our command when they were patient and they were certain of our communications. (Surah Sajdah 32:24)
Were the above Prophets and Messengers before they were made Imams? You tell me? Please do inform and educate me.
Lets not leave Adam out of it. He was made a Caliph on earth. Caliph upon whom? If there was no one on earth then who was he made a Caliph on?
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Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)
1) Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran
2) prophethood Allah swt chooses, leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet
Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?
Your not one of them who believes imams are higher than prophets apart from prophet saw😳......are you?🙃
"how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate"
Are you a QUR'ANIST? You demand a CLEAR VERSE but when asked can't even give an indication from the Qur'an, never mind about a clear verse.
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Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)
1) Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran
2) prophethood Allah swt chooses, leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet
Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?
Your not one of them who believes imams are higher than prophets apart from prophet saw😳......are you?🙃
So what do you think of this;
وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.
And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)
Do you think the above were also Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams 😊
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وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا ۖ وَقَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ ۖ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنتُم بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَّأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ
And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way."
The number 12 holds a significance in Islam. There are narrations that say the number of Imams are like the 12 leaders of Bani-Israel or 12 Apostles of Prophet Jesus:
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LOL!
Why not mention the 12 Imams of shia? Why only talk about the children of Israel??😂😂😂
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LOL!
Why not mention the 12 Imams of shia? Why only talk about the children of Israel??😂😂😂
Do you have everything in Taura? Do you have everything in Zaboor? Do you have everything in Injeel? Why does Qur'an speak about certain matters concerning the peopke of those books? Lets not go too far back, why doesn’t the Bible mention the occultation of Jesus and that actually he wasn't crucified? The signs and indications are there and Muhammad s.a.w confirmed it. But people in the Ummah had other intentions just as you're constantly trying to reject and over look it. You need to connect the dots. The intelligent and wise figure it out for themselves. They don't need it in black and white and spelled out for them.
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Do you have everything in Taura? Do you have everything in Zaboor? Do you have everything in Injeel? Why does Qur'an speak about certain matters concerning the peopke of those books? Lets not go too far back, why doesn’t the Bible mention the occultation of Jesus and that actually he wasn't crucified? The signs and indications are there and Muhammad s.a.w confirmed it. But people in the Ummah had other intentions just as you're constantly trying to reject and over look it. You need to connect the dots. The intelligent and wise figure it out for themselves. They don't need it in black and white and spelled out for them.
LOL.
You sound like the shia user called link who got banned for spamming this forum with his nonsense.
So this most important belief of your sect is not clear black & white in Quran. Thank you for admitting that.
So we need to crack the riddles & connect the dots do we?😂😂😂😂
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"Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)"
One step at a time. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or do you think he was given a title of a similar level?
Is Nabuwah above and higher than Imamah, if it is then Abraham was demoted. If Imamah is above and higher than Nabuwah then it is obvious that Abraham was promoted. You tell me? Come on and give it a try. Don't be hesitant and shy.
"Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran"
Where does it say that you have to be a Prophet before you can be an Imam or Caliph. Why do you want evidence only and just from the Qur'an? Are you a QUR'ANIST? If I ask you to provide something from the Qur'an you start jumping up and down. If I ask you to explain yourselves you start dancing around. Make up your mind, do you just and only want to stick to the Qur'an, then you better start delivering.
"prophethood Allah swt chooses, leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet
Allah choose the Ahlul Bayth as guides to govern after Muhammad s.a.w. And Muhammad s.a.w clearly stated the following,
It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).
According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:
“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”
“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”
According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”
"Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?
He wasn't a Prophet because you don't have to be Prophet to be an Imam or Caliph.
Take a note of this;
وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ.
And we made of them Imams to guide by our command when they were patient and they were certain of our communications. (Surah Sajdah 32:24)
Were the above Prophets and Messengers before they were made Imams? You tell me? Please do inform and educate me.
Lets not leave Adam out of it. He was made a Caliph on earth. Caliph upon whom? If there was no one on earth then who was he made a Caliph on?
So you are a FOOL for believing Imamate is higher than prophethood astaghfirullah and then you tell us you are intelligent? Wise? Hahahaha you crack me up😂
Promotion? Demotion? What? He Ibrahim as was STILL a prophet until the day He passed away so tell me mr smarty pants how was there a promotion? He was also an imam a leader just like prophet saw was, a prophet and an imam/leader for the Muslims.........what’s so hard to understand that?
when did prophet saw get this promotion? And how come imams bypassed nabuwwah to get straight promoted to a higher level than prophets?? The verse states after being tried by His lord He Ibrahim as was made an imam.......what trial did imams go through to become imams??
Demotion promotion are your own ideas and false desires you want to force us to believe otherwise imarmite is dead in the water, you can only use this verse and TWIST it to your own thinking just because of the word Imamate in there lol that’s just stupid and foolish when it’s not even a CLEAR verse.
At least the base of divine Imamate should be CLEAR but as before you have to add your own commentary to it otherwise you have NOTHING, look at you stuck in your explanation which doesn’t even make sense
Icepop come on man you can do better......Ibrahim as gets promoted, prophet saw doesn’t get a mention of promotion and YET imams bypass nabuwwah to get a straight A promotion.........?!?!???!??
I see you couldn’t answer that in your previous post😂
Now straight from that VAGUE verse you will use details of Sunni hadiths to back yourself up😂😂
12 khalif hadiths lol
It has nothing to do with divine leadership reason being no imam was in power and Islam was spread by khalifs and not your so called divine imams even Ali ra who did rule never spread Islam He ra had internal struggles so it wasn’t triumphant then cos of the fitna so please you can’t use your nonsensical ideas here mate😜
Smarty pants if you don’t have to be a prophet to become an imam or khalif then why the PROMOTION for Ibrahim as?? Why wasn’t prophet saw an imam? Why did Allah swt leave prophet saw’s Imamate out but only gave you Ibrahim as’s Imamate?
Prophet saw is mentioned CLEAR as a Nabi but not no imam in the Quran
Promotion demotion 😂😂😂😂
I see your intelligence is getting you tangled 😂😂
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LOL
Iceman just got fired!!😂😂
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LOL.
You sound like the shia user called link who got banned for spamming this forum with his nonsense.
So this most important belief of your sect is not clear black & white in Quran. Thank you for admitting that.
So we need to crack the riddles & connect the dots do we?😂😂😂😂
😊 First you thought I was AMEEN for some reason and now you think I sound like LINK 😀 I wonder what you're going to come out with next.
Our belief is not in the Qur'an the way you want it. Also many important things aren't in the Qur'an which I've just proven by nailing you. This should end it.
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Our belief is not in the Qur'an......
......This should end it.
😁
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😁
Neither our belief is in the Qur'an and nor is yours. You don't have Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah or their system of Caliphate in the Qur'an nor do you have Ahle Tasheyu or their system of Imamah in the Qur'an in black and white that will knock you on the head and tell you that here it is.
I can only speak for myself. Our belief is according to the Qur'an. You will have no Islamic sect or school of thought in the Qur'an. You need to make up your mind, one minute you act and sound as QURANISTS and the next minute you can't provide a single indication from the Qur'an.
Even if it comes from Allah you don't think it's necessary that it should be in the Qur'an. You act as a bunch of immature adults trying their best just to make themselves look good.
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This is hilarious, so iceman is saying that one of the most important aspects of the religion is not spelled out clearly in the Qur'an because its only reserved for the wise ones who are able to connect the dots?
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Neither our belief is in the Qur'an and nor is yours. You don't have Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah or their system of Caliphate in the Qur'an nor do you have Ahle Tasheyu or their system of Imamah in the Qur'an in black and white that will knock you on the head and tell you that here it is.
I can only speak for myself. Our belief is according to the Qur'an. You will have no Islamic sect or school of thought in the Qur'an. You need to make up your mind, one minute you act and sound as QURANISTS and the next minute you can't provide a single indication from the Qur'an.
Even if it comes from Allah you don't think it's necessary that it should be in the Qur'an. You act as a bunch of immature adults trying their best just to make themselves look good.
Ah you admit your belief of imamate is not in the Quran.
That will do😁
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Ah you admit your belief of imamate is not in the Quran.
That will do😁
I've said it before and I'll say it again, our belief the way you want send describe it most certainly isn't in the Qur'an. Everything that Allah has said and the Prophet s.a.w pointed out isn't in the Qur'an in black and white. Do you agree to this.
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Verse 5:55,
"Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]"
This is more than enough for us to know that Allah has put someone third in line in authority after Himself and his Messenger s.a.w. Who were they, Muhammad s.a.w declared them and we accept them. The AHLUL BAYTH.
There are clear signs in Qur'an and Sunnah about what Allah and his Messenger s.a.w wanted but some people from the Ummah had other ideas.
Allah is speaking to the believers that he is not just their Wali so is Muhammad s.a.w and so are the believers. So basically Allah is speaking to the believers and tells them that apart from himself and his Messenger s.a.w he is putting certain believers as Wali over the believers.
So according to this (verse 5:55) we accept and declare our faith as ALIYUN WALI ALLAH that Ali is Wali from Allah. Our faith is not in the Qur'an but most certainly according to the Qur'an.
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http://www.askthesheikh.com/
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Iceman you completely humiliated yourself on this thread.
Put the nail in your own coffin!
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Iceman you completely humiliated yourself on this thread.
Put the nail in your own coffin!
Then you shouldn't have anything to worry about, should you. What are you crying about.
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Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad). As for Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib, he is the uncle of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) and Zakat is compulsory on him and he should pay it double."
I wonder what happened to execution here 😊
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Icepops fake theory of divinity Imamate is a shambles at best he cannot even produce 1 clear verse......this is the second time icepop has abysmally failed in producing anything alhamdulillah
All talk but no substance as is the case with his sect 😂👍
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Icepops fake theory of divinity Imamate is a shambles at best he cannot even produce 1 clear verse......this is the second time icepop has abysmally failed in producing anything alhamdulillah
All talk but no substance as is the case with his sect 😂👍
How many verses do you need before it finally hits you 😀 I've given you a verse and you just brush it aside. Here it is again just to knock you out again, was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade ? 😊 You'll always and I mean always skip it. 😊
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How many verses do you need before it finally hits you 😀 I've given you a verse and you just brush it aside. Here it is again just to knock you out again, was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade ? 😊 You'll always and I mean always skip it. 😊
No, your the one who loves to hop skip and jump from vague verses to unauthentic proofs.
I asked for clear evidence and you keep posting verses for wives or this vague verse or some other vague verse and then you ADD your own theory to it, when we point that out you say we don’t want to understand it and it’s our fault?!?!?
Do you understand what clear means?
I don’t think you do.....
open
open and shut
out in the open
overt
palpable
patent
perceivable
plain
self-evident
transparent
unambiguous
under one's nose
understandable
unequivocal
unmistakable
visible
How hard can that be? It’s been months and yet you still haven’t provided anything clear, please do if not then your Imamate theory is a new innovation that your kind added after Allah swt completed the religion of Islam.
So Ibrahim as was promoted to an imam........(a Shiite chosen divine imam).......as if Imamate is a higher status than prophethood astaghfirullah.
When was prophet saw promoted to such a status? (From the Quran please)
Why did Ali ra bypass prophethood to jump straight onto Imamate? (Quran please)
Such an important status and a vague verse to represent it?
A great failure you should be named wasteman instead😉
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No, your the one who loves to hop skip and jump from vague verses to unauthentic proofs.
I asked for clear evidence and you keep posting verses for wives or this vague verse or some other vague verse and then you ADD your own theory to it, when we point that out you say we don’t want to understand it and it’s our fault?!?!?
Do you understand what clear means?
I don’t think you do.....
open
open and shut
out in the open
overt
palpable
patent
perceivable
plain
self-evident
transparent
unambiguous
under one's nose
understandable
unequivocal
unmistakable
visible
How hard can that be? It’s been months and yet you still haven’t provided anything clear, please do if not then your Imamate theory is a new innovation that your kind added after Allah swt completed the religion of Islam.
So Ibrahim as was promoted to an imam........(a Shiite chosen divine imam).......as if Imamate is a higher status than prophethood astaghfirullah.
When was prophet saw promoted to such a status? (From the Quran please)
Why did Ali ra bypass prophethood to jump straight onto Imamate? (Quran please)
Such an important status and a vague verse to represent it?
A great failure you should be named wasteman instead😉
I have plenty from the Qur'an but nothing that suits you and your desire. But here it is again just for you and for your eyes and ears only.
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
Was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?
This is more than enough on Imamah to knock you out and to put you to rest. But the ignorant and blind will keep coming rather than answering and addressing.
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I have plenty from the Qur'an but nothing that suits you and your desire. But here it is again just for you and for your eyes and ears only.
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
Was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?
This is more than enough on Imamah to knock you out and to put you to rest. But the ignorant and blind will keep coming rather than answering and addressing.
You are dumb for regurgitating the same stuff.........I counter questioned on you on the post before but obviously as can be seen you have no answer.
Was prophet saw promoted? How did Ali ra bypass prophethood and got straight A promotion to the highest status?
Again you have no clear verse on Imamate as can be seen by your desperate attempts to create an idea that there is Imamate 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Quran- no Imamate
Quran- shura is mentioned
Your having a very hard time to convince aren’t you lol, only fools can see Imamate where there is none.
Shura has knocked fake Imamate out for good for it’s mentioned in the Quran, but the blind and ignorant will keep lying to enforce a belief in an unknown idea from the mind of Ibn Saba about some fairytale divine Imamate theory as if it’s in the Quran, like you are doing twisting words and adding ideas like promotion demotion status ideas that are never mentioned.
Shura really has trampelled all over divine Imamate theory.😉👍
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You are dumb for regurgitating the same stuff.........I counter questioned on you on the post before but obviously as can be seen you have no answer.
Was prophet saw promoted? How did Ali ra bypass prophethood and got straight A promotion to the highest status?
Again you have no clear verse on Imamate as can be seen by your desperate attempts to create an idea that there is Imamate 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Quran- no Imamate
Quran- shura is mentioned
Your having a very hard time to convince aren’t you lol, only fools can see Imamate where there is none.
Shura has knocked fake Imamate out for good for it’s mentioned in the Quran, but the blind and ignorant will keep lying to enforce a belief in an unknown idea from the mind of Ibn Saba about some fairytale divine Imamate theory as if it’s in the Quran, like you are doing twisting words and adding ideas like promotion demotion status ideas that are never mentioned.
Shura really has trampelled all over divine Imamate theory.😉👍
Again you're trying desperately to avoid a discussion. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade? Answer and address rather than running from it. Then will talk about Ali why he skipped this, that and the other.
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Again you're trying desperately to avoid a discussion. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade? Answer and address rather than running from it. Then will talk about Ali why he skipped this, that and the other.
Your question makes no sense.
You’re applying man made employment jargon to Allah SWT & his appointment of Prophets???
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Your question makes no sense.
You’re applying man made employment jargon to Allah SWT & his appointment of Prophets???
No, just proving four things here and they are,
1, There is such thing as Imamah.
2, It is from Allah and he gives it.
3, Imamah is either a stage above Messenger hood and Prophecy or a level of a similar nature and stance.
4, You don't have to be a Messenger or Prophet before you are made an Imam.
Would you lads like to discuss this or do you want to continue with your childish and immature behaviour, sarcasm and getting personal?
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You are dumb for regurgitating the same stuff.........I counter questioned on you on the post before but obviously as can be seen you have no answer.
Was prophet saw promoted? How did Ali ra bypass prophethood and got straight A promotion to the highest status?
Again you have no clear verse on Imamate as can be seen by your desperate attempts to create an idea that there is Imamate 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Quran- no Imamate
Quran- shura is mentioned
Your having a very hard time to convince aren’t you lol, only fools can see Imamate where there is none.
Shura has knocked fake Imamate out for good for it’s mentioned in the Quran, but the blind and ignorant will keep lying to enforce a belief in an unknown idea from the mind of Ibn Saba about some fairytale divine Imamate theory as if it’s in the Quran, like you are doing twisting words and adding ideas like promotion demotion status ideas that are never mentioned.
Shura really has trampelled all over divine Imamate theory.😉👍
وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.
And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)
So the above were also made Imams by Allah himself, were they Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams? Or did they also skip Messenger hood and Prophecy and made Imams only? Do ponder over this with your THEORY!
Imamah (divine guidance) has clearly been mentioned in the Qur'an and so is Shura (consultation). The only difference is that the Ummah rejected Imamah and didn't even bother with Shura 😊
There was no shura at Saqifa because that's not what the gathering and incident was all about. Abu Bakr named and appointed his successor so there was no Shura there. And a six man committee was formed by Umar to vote for the next Caliph so there was no Shura here either. 😀 So I don't know what you're banging on about! 😁
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No, just proving four things here and they are,
1, There is such thing as Imamah.
2, It is from Allah and he gives it.
3, Imamah is either a stage above Messenger hood and Prophecy or a level of a similar nature and stance.
4, You don't have to be a Messenger or Prophet before you are made an Imam.
Would you lads like to discuss this or do you want to continue with your childish and immature behaviour, sarcasm and getting personal?
The verse says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam/leader AFTER he fullfilled certain tasks.
But shia believe the Imams are born as Imams?
So this tells me the term Imam mentioned in the Quran is not to be used as the word Imam that shia use.
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The verse says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam/leader AFTER he fullfilled certain tasks.
But shia believe the Imams are born as Imams?
So this tells me the term Imam mentioned in the Quran is not to be used as the word Imam that shia use.
"The verse says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam/leader AFTER he fullfilled certain tasks"
Absolutely. So was he promoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade?
So to start off with do we agree that there is such thing as Imamah in the Qur'an and it is by Allah and he alone does choose and make Imams as specified in the Qur'an?
Reference:
“And we made of them Imams to guide by our command for they were patient, and they were certain of our clear signs”. (32:24)
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First we need to establish if there is such thing as Imamah and is there any sign of it in the Qur'an. Then we need to establish that if Allah has made Imams. And I believe we have established that. Now do you have to be a Messenger or Prophet before being made an Imam by Allah? I believe the following will settle it;
وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.
And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)
So Allah also made them Imams whom Allah is speaking about, do you believe these individuals were Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams?
People do ponder over this. One step at a time and we will get there. Humble request, please leave the sarcasm, getting petsonal and immature behaviour out of it. Unless you want to continue to derail the discussion and divert attention.
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Also take and make a note of this while you're at it;
يَوْمَ نَدْعُواْ كُلَّ اُنَاسٍ بإِمَامِهِمْ فَمَنْ اُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَاُوْلَئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلاَ يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلاً
“On the Day We shall call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand; then these will read their book (joyfully); and they will not be treated unjustly in the least"
Excuse me, WITH THEIR IMAM ? Why not 'with their Messenger or Prophet'? I mean the word Messenger or Prophet should have berm used but no, the word IMAM has been used. Do ponder over this as well.
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"The verse says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam/leader AFTER he fullfilled certain tasks"
Absolutely. So was he promoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade?
So to start off with do we agree that there is such thing as Imamah in the Qur'an and it is by Allah and he alone does choose and make Imams as specified in the Qur'an?
Reference:
“And we made of them Imams to guide by our command for they were patient, and they were certain of our clear signs”. (32:24)
You totally ignored the main point I made. That is Ibrahim AS was not born an Imam but was made one AFTER a certain point in his life.
Whereas your Imams are meant to be born as Imams.
Hence these are two different terminology of the word Imam being used.
That renders your strange promotion/demotion malarky null & void.
We can’t answer an invalid question.
If the station is the same or similar then why is one born with that station whereas the other had to wait & earn that station.
Clearly you are confused by trying to assert Ibrahim AS was an Imam like your belief of Imams.
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Again you're trying desperately to avoid a discussion. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade? Answer and address rather than running from it. Then will talk about Ali why he skipped this, that and the other.
NO He Ibrahim as wasn’t promoted, I keep repeating that do you even read posts?
So now tell us please it’s been days how prophet saw didn’t get promoted and Ali ra bypassed it?
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وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.
And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)
So the above were also made Imams by Allah himself, were they Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams? Or did they also skip Messenger hood and Prophecy and made Imams only? Do ponder over this with your THEORY!
Imamah (divine guidance) has clearly been mentioned in the Qur'an and so is Shura (consultation). The only difference is that the Ummah rejected Imamah and didn't even bother with Shura 😊
There was no shura at Saqifa because that's not what the gathering and incident was all about. Abu Bakr named and appointed his successor so there was no Shura there. And a six man committee was formed by Umar to vote for the next Caliph so there was no Shura here either. 😀 So I don't know what you're banging on about! 😁
Huh? Do you read ayahs properly?
They were LEADERS calling towards the fire, no prophets or promotions here mate, you are AGAIN adding your false thoughts and ideas into that verse, you are a joke honestly any non Muslim reading that verse will side with the sunni view.........nothing to do with divine Imamate here fella😂😂😂😂
I said you have nothing on divine Imamate and I stick by my words no need for pondering over nonsense that is clearly not mentioned.
The ummah stuck with the truth and followed the Quran and sunna whilst the sabaites and khawarij were attacking it with false ideas and concepts to corrupt the religion within and yet the majority of the ummah is on the right path adhereing to Quran and sunna and keeping alien man made theories at a distance, by using shura to choose leaders following the ayahs of Quran and the traditions of the prophet saw and not following people who have new ideas of promotion backed divine ideas imams😜
Shura was used to choose Abu Bakr ra and Umar ra and Uthman ra if the people disagreed then they wouldn’t have been leaders yet the people agreed with their leadership unless like I said you are either Shiite or khawarijite, shura really has got divine Imamate hence you still cannot answer why shura is clearly mentioned but divine Imamate isn’t, all these months and you have to EXPLAIN divine Imamate from the ayahs with your own secterian bias where there is nothing of such in clear language from the Quran like........shura, I know your head must hurt you are frustrated it’s hard to find something if it’s not there😜👍
Blind following the blind😂😂😂
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Huh? Do you read ayahs properly?
They were LEADERS calling towards the fire, no prophets or promotions here mate, you are AGAIN adding your false thoughts and ideas into that verse, you are a joke honestly any non Muslim reading that verse will side with the sunni view.........nothing to do with divine Imamate here fella😂😂😂😂
I said you have nothing on divine Imamate and I stick by my words no need for pondering over nonsense that is clearly not mentioned.
The ummah stuck with the truth and followed the Quran and sunna whilst the sabaites and khawarij were attacking it with false ideas and concepts to corrupt the religion within and yet the majority of the ummah is on the right path adhereing to Quran and sunna and keeping alien man made theories at a distance, by using shura to choose leaders following the ayahs of Quran and the traditions of the prophet saw and not following people who have new ideas of promotion backed divine ideas imams😜
Shura was used to choose Abu Bakr ra and Umar ra and Uthman ra if the people disagreed then they wouldn’t have been leaders yet the people agreed with their leadership unless like I said you are either Shiite or khawarijite, shura really has got divine Imamate hence you still cannot answer why shura is clearly mentioned but divine Imamate isn’t, all these months and you have to EXPLAIN divine Imamate from the ayahs with your own secterian bias where there is nothing of such in clear language from the Quran like........shura, I know your head must hurt you are frustrated it’s hard to find something if it’s not there😜👍
Blind following the blind😂😂😂
LEADERS? The word 'IMAM' has been used 'AND WE MADE THEM IMAMS' so stop giving it your own meaning such as LEADERS.
Theory that 'well Abraham was a Messenger and Prophet before he was made an Imam, so therefore one should be a Messenger and Prophet first before being an Imam'.
Relating to Shia Imams that why did they by pass Messenger hood and Prophecy and went straight to Imamah.
Answer: Use your sense for a change, it's Allah's doing and will and not the Imams. So stop giving things your own flavour and taste.
Now to address the theory that is it necessary that one should be a Messenger and Prophet before being made an Imam? I don't think so because the following were also made Imams by Allah, do you think they were Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams?
"وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.
And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)
This is what I was trying to address and you keep running around and diverting attention with your rants and raves and childish behaviour.
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It is absolutely clear by the following that Allah makes Caliphs and Imams.
"And remember when your Lord said to the angels, ‘Verily, I am going to place [for mankind] a successor (khalifah) on the earth"
"O David! Verily We have placed you as a successor (khalifah) on the earth, so judge between men with truth and justice, and follow not your desires, for they will mislead you from the path of Allah"
"And remember when the Lord of Abraham tried him with certain commands which he fulfilled. Allah said to him, ‘Verily I am going to make you a Imam for mankind.’ Abraham said, ‘And (what about) my offspring?’ Allah said, ‘My providence (does not) includes the wrongdoers"
"And We made from among them Imams giving guidance under Our command, when they were patient and believed with certainty in Our proofs and evidence"
Why has Allah mentioned this in the Qur'an when it's to do with the past and if it's got nothing to do with the future. To remind the Ummah of Muhammad s.a.w. But dude they remember and acknowledge. Oh no they didn't. They even disregarded the Prophet s.a.w by saying 'the book of Allah is sufficient for us". An absolute and clear insult to the Prophet s.a.w don't you think. I don't see anybody jumping up and down here in defence of the Prophet s.a.w 😊
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LEADERS? The word 'IMAM' has been used 'AND WE MADE THEM IMAMS' so stop giving it your own meaning such as LEADERS.
Theory that 'well Abraham was a Messenger and Prophet before he was made an Imam, so therefore one should be a Messenger and Prophet first before being an Imam'.
Relating to Shia Imams that why did they by pass Messenger hood and Prophecy and went straight to Imamah.
Answer: Use your sense for a change, it's Allah's doing and will and not the Imams. So stop giving things your own flavour and taste.
Now to address the theory that is it necessary that one should be a Messenger and Prophet before being made an Imam? I don't think so because the following were also made Imams by Allah, do you think they were Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams?
"وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.
And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)
This is what I was trying to address and you keep running around and diverting attention with your rants and raves and childish behaviour.
Imam in Quran means LEADERS not no divine authority leaders chosen by Allah swt.
That is your problem you cannot ever as can be seen on the posts prove that imam means divine leader at all you are using an ambiguous verse to prop up an idea at best.
I see you STILL cannot provide an answer on WHY prophets had a test but the ahle baith ra didn’t need to.......come on lad what’s up? Give us an answer😜😜
And by the way thankyou that last verse you posted imams of the fire that just proves my point they are just normal leaders NOT god chosen, where o where is that divine imam in that verse? Again no clear signs or proofs, if you read the verse without the Shiite goggles on😉
You haven’t addressed the main points and yet you still cannot provide a clear verse on Imamate.
Come on wasteman your kind are watching and reading show them your intelligence😜😂😂😂
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It is absolutely clear by the following that Allah makes Caliphs and Imams.
"And remember when your Lord said to the angels, ‘Verily, I am going to place [for mankind] a successor (khalifah) on the earth"
"O David! Verily We have placed you as a successor (khalifah) on the earth, so judge between men with truth and justice, and follow not your desires, for they will mislead you from the path of Allah"
"And remember when the Lord of Abraham tried him with certain commands which he fulfilled. Allah said to him, ‘Verily I am going to make you a Imam for mankind.’ Abraham said, ‘And (what about) my offspring?’ Allah said, ‘My providence (does not) includes the wrongdoers"
"And We made from among them Imams giving guidance under Our command, when they were patient and believed with certainty in Our proofs and evidence"
Why has Allah mentioned this in the Qur'an when it's to do with the past and if it's got nothing to do with the future. To remind the Ummah of Muhammad s.a.w. But dude they remember and acknowledge. Oh no they didn't. They even disregarded the Prophet s.a.w by saying 'the book of Allah is sufficient for us". An absolute and clear insult to the Prophet s.a.w don't you think. I don't see anybody jumping up and down here in defence of the Prophet s.a.w 😊
No we ain’t bunny rabbits jumping up and down you dimwit
A khalifa is NOT a shia divine imam, the verses you posted prove that point.
Until you can provide evidence that Imamate is a higher status you are wasting your time on posting ambiguous verses at best, you are all over the place with these verses mate you know yourself you are.
Last paragraph a sly dig at saqifa and how they were wrong........dude shura is in the Quran clear as day yet you cannot get better than shura cos you have for months of asking NOTHING clear on divine Imamate theory or concept from Quran😉
The book is SUFFICIENT hence you cannot use it to find divine Imamate 😂👍
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Imam in Quran means LEADERS not no divine authority leaders chosen by Allah swt.
That is your problem you cannot ever as can be seen on the posts prove that imam means divine leader at all you are using an ambiguous verse to prop up an idea at best.
I see you STILL cannot provide an answer on WHY prophets had a test but the ahle baith ra didn’t need to.......come on lad what’s up? Give us an answer😜😜
And by the way thankyou that last verse you posted imams of the fire that just proves my point they are just normal leaders NOT god chosen, where o where is that divine imam in that verse? Again no clear signs or proofs, if you read the verse without the Shiite goggles on😉
You haven’t addressed the main points and yet you still cannot provide a clear verse on Imamate.
Come on wasteman your kind are watching and reading show them your intelligence😜😂😂😂
"Imam in Quran means LEADERS not no divine authority leaders chosen by Allah swt"
Some who were chosen were divine. So stop giving it your own meaning and understanding. Open up your mind and start thinking rationally.
"I see you STILL cannot provide an answer on WHY prophets had a test but the ahle baith ra didn’t need to.......come on lad what’s up? Give us an answer😜😜"
I've given it to you. You don't have to be a Messenger and Prophet first to receive the title of Imam. Already proven it. 😊 Keep talking! Some are put through a test and others are honoured with it. Any problem, then take it up with God when you see him. Don't blame us for things not going your way.
"And by the way thankyou that last verse you posted imams of the fire that just proves my point they are just normal leaders NOT god chosen, where o where is that divine imam in that verse? Again no clear signs or proofs, if you read the verse without the Shiite goggles on"
Imams not leaders. That verse proves you don't have to be a Messenger and Prophet first to be an Imam. Take off those Saqifah spectacles and you'll be able to see clearlyand more better. 😀
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"Imam in Quran means LEADERS not no divine authority leaders chosen by Allah swt"
Some who were chosen were divine. So stop giving it your own meaning and understanding. Open up your mind and start thinking rationally.
"I see you STILL cannot provide an answer on WHY prophets had a test but the ahle baith ra didn’t need to.......come on lad what’s up? Give us an answer😜😜"
I've given it to you. You don't have to be a Messenger and Prophet first to receive the title of Imam. Already proven it. 😊 Keep talking! Some are put through a test and others are honoured with it. Any problem, then take it up with God when you see him. Don't blame us for things not going your way.
"And by the way thankyou that last verse you posted imams of the fire that just proves my point they are just normal leaders NOT god chosen, where o where is that divine imam in that verse? Again no clear signs or proofs, if you read the verse without the Shiite goggles on"
Imams not leaders. That verse proves you don't have to be a Messenger and Prophet first to be an Imam. Take off those Saqifah spectacles and you'll be able to see clearlyand more better. 😀
No there was NO divine imam and yet you haven’t any clear evidence for it apart from verses that have to be extrapolated
Don’t need to take it up with anyone apart from you, it’s your theory and has nothing to do with god at all as you have failed miserably in providing any clear evidences from the Quran.
You haven’t proved anything all you are saying is Ibrahim as was made a divine imam after being a prophet and you use an ambiguous verse from the Quran to prop up the idea, yet when I ask you how does that work when prophet saw is NEVER mentioned to be an imam after prophethood but the ahle baith ra don’t need prophethood to jump straight on to divine Imamate........you say, “ask Allah” ?!?!??!?
Come on ameen am sure you can answer better than that😜
Lol so when it suits iceman and his kind verse of Ibrahim as means He was given divine Imamate and the verse of imams of fire god doesn’t need to choose them.........so how do you know who is divine and who is not? Is it when you desire it to be?
It’s just leaders means leaders even Ibrahim as is mentioned as a leader an imam, it doesn’t mean divine god chosen higher status than prophethood leader that’s your own idea and whims adding to that.
Goes back to my question how come prophet saw wasn’t given such an honour but his ahle baith ra did??
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No there was NO divine imam and yet you haven’t any clear evidence for it apart from verses that have to be extrapolated
Don’t need to take it up with anyone apart from you, it’s your theory and has nothing to do with god at all as you have failed miserably in providing any clear evidences from the Quran.
You haven’t proved anything all you are saying is Ibrahim as was made a divine imam after being a prophet and you use an ambiguous verse from the Quran to prop up the idea, yet when I ask you how does that work when prophet saw is NEVER mentioned to be an imam after prophethood but the ahle baith ra don’t need prophethood to jump straight on to divine Imamate........you say, “ask Allah” ?!?!??!?
Come on ameen am sure you can answer better than that😜
Lol so when it suits iceman and his kind verse of Ibrahim as means He was given divine Imamate and the verse of imams of fire god doesn’t need to choose them.........so how do you know who is divine and who is not? Is it when you desire it to be?
It’s just leaders means leaders even Ibrahim as is mentioned as a leader an imam, it doesn’t mean divine god chosen higher status than prophethood leader that’s your own idea and whims adding to that.
Goes back to my question how come prophet saw wasn’t given such an honour but his ahle baith ra did??
It looks like you want to remain ignorant over it. Well that's down to you. 😊
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It looks like you want to remain ignorant over it. Well that's down to you. 😊
It looks clear that you cannot provide an answer and you choose to counter question my question a typical Shiite deviating tactic.......I ain’t even surprised😉👍
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It looks clear that you cannot provide an answer and you choose to counter question my question a typical Shiite deviating tactic.......I ain’t even surprised😉👍
The question is,
'is Imamah a higher status than Messenger hood and Prophecy?'
The Shias consider Imamah to be a higher status than Messenger hood and Prophecy.
These are your questions I believe, is that correct? I believe it is.
Lets examine the situation and then answer it.
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
Lets look at the facts, not my opinion or analysis based on my understanding bit FACTS.
1, Abraham was TRIED by his Lord. That surely would be a test or something sort of exame.
2, Abraham FULLFILLED them. In other words Abraham passed, succeeded.
3, Abraham was made an IMAM of the people. One thing we need to understand here is being an Imam or Imamah is no ordinary thing or saying that he was JUST made a LEADER and that is all. There is nothing to it. That's your analysis based on your opinion.
Abraham was TRIED by his Lord, when he succeeded he was made an IMAM of the people.
4, He was already a Messenger as well as a Prophet. These are not just titles of leadership and just as these Imamah is not just a title or word for leadership because he wouldn't be tried (put to a test) in the first place and what's the difference? Was Abraham not a leader being a Messenger and Prophet in the first place?
So we need to ask ourselves that was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?
And the obvious answer, which you're running from, is that he was either promoted or given a title of a similar grade but of a different nature and purpose. 😊
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The question is,
'is Imamah a higher status than Messenger hood and Prophecy?'
The Shias consider Imamah to be a higher status than Messenger hood and Prophecy.
These are your questions I believe, is that correct? I believe it is.
Lets examine the situation and then answer it.
وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
Lets look at the facts, not my opinion or analysis based on my understanding bit FACTS.
1, Abraham was TRIED by his Lord. That surely would be a test or something sort of exame.
2, Abraham FULLFILLED them. In other words Abraham passed, succeeded.
3, Abraham was made an IMAM of the people. One thing we need to understand here is being an Imam or Imamah is no ordinary thing or saying that he was JUST made a LEADER and that is all. There is nothing to it. That's your analysis based on your opinion.
Abraham was TRIED by his Lord, when he succeeded he was made an IMAM of the people.
4, He was already a Messenger as well as a Prophet. These are not just titles of leadership and just as these Imamah is not just a title or word for leadership because he wouldn't be tried (put to a test) in the first place and what's the difference? Was Abraham not a leader being a Messenger and Prophet in the first place?
So we need to ask ourselves that was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?
And the obvious answer, which you're running from, is that he was either promoted or given a title of a similar grade but of a different nature and purpose. 😊
Lol is that your answer?😂😂😂😂😂
Let’s give you your answers on the 4 points shall we😉
1) Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉
2) Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention.😉
3) Is your own analysis and opinion devoid of any facts from the Quran.
Imam means leader unless you can prove from Quran otherwise, which you find it IMPOSSIBLE to do.......just read the posts.😉
4) Again a personal analysis and opinion devoid of any facts which you cannot provide.😉
You keep asking that stupid question if he was promoted or not cos that’s your own analysis and opinion of which there is no fact.
My question still stands and has NOT been answered.
Ibrahim as gets promotion
Prophet saw never gets promoted
Ahle baith ra bypass prophethood and jump straight on to a higher status.
Please do provide a clear answer for the questions asked instead of giving your own analysis and opinion.😊👍
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Lol is that your answer?😂😂😂😂😂
Let’s give you your answers on the 4 points shall we😉
1) Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉
2) Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention.😉
3) Is your own analysis and opinion devoid of any facts from the Quran.
Imam means leader unless you can prove from Quran otherwise, which you find it IMPOSSIBLE to do.......just read the posts.😉
4) Again a personal analysis and opinion devoid of any facts which you cannot provide.😉
You keep asking that stupid question if he was promoted or not cos that’s your own analysis and opinion of which there is no fact.
My question still stands and has NOT been answered.
Ibrahim as gets promotion
Prophet saw never gets promoted
Ahle baith ra bypass prophethood and jump straight on to a higher status.
Please do provide a clear answer for the questions asked instead of giving your own analysis and opinion.😊👍
😊 Despite knowing that you'll continue to dance around it, lets move this further.
"Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉
☺ We're not talking about the last Prophet s.a.w. One thing and step at a time. You keep jumping around and on without addressing the matter concerned and discussed. Can't provide evidence? My dear when it comes to giving an example what do you want and expect? A list, in this case of 123,999 messengers and Prophets excluding Abraham since his example has already been given?
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😊 Despite knowing that you'll continue to dance around it, lets move this further.
"Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉
☺ We're not talking about the last Prophet s.a.w. One thing and step at a time. You keep jumping around and on without addressing the matter concerned and discussed. Can't provide evidence? My dear when it comes to giving an example what do you want and expect? A list, in this case of 123,999 messengers and Prophets excluding Abraham since his example has already been given?
Lol it looks as if your doing the samba mate you cannot provide an answer for your theory of promotion honestly keep on that dance and avoid answering what you was asked..........come on iceman why can you not answer? I thought shiites were taught by divine imams? Yet in here you are finding it hard to explain your man made theory........keep up the samba😉👍
This time iceman cannot provide a CLEAR answer for his promotion theory just as he can’t provide a CLEAR verse on Imamate without adding his commentary on it, and if that theory doesn’t sound or seem right to a normal layman then that means that person is IGNORANT..........that’s icepop for you😂😂😂😂👍👍👍
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Icepop loves to jump in threads like a troll and calls people out and when confronted he calls you ignorant for not understanding him on a man made theory😂😂😂👍👍👍👍
Icepop has bitten more than he can chew........come on mate you called me out and called me quranist only cos I wanted proof from the Quran and yet here you are about 5 pages later and many posts finding it difficult to stand up and affirm that divine Imamate is in the Quran
EPIC FAIL👍
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Lol is that your answer?😂😂😂😂😂
Let’s give you your answers on the 4 points shall we😉
1) Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉
2) Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention.😉
3) Is your own analysis and opinion devoid of any facts from the Quran.
Imam means leader unless you can prove from Quran otherwise, which you find it IMPOSSIBLE to do.......just read the posts.😉
4) Again a personal analysis and opinion devoid of any facts which you cannot provide.😉
You keep asking that stupid question if he was promoted or not cos that’s your own analysis and opinion of which there is no fact.
My question still stands and has NOT been answered.
Ibrahim as gets promotion
Prophet saw never gets promoted
Ahle baith ra bypass prophethood and jump straight on to a higher status.
Please do provide a clear answer for the questions asked instead of giving your own analysis and opinion.😊👍
"Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention"
Again what would you like, an example or a long and lengthy list before it makes any sense to you, before it actually hits you 😊 Do you believe that there were 124,000 Messengers and Prophets, I'm sure you do. Allah has mentioned and given an example at the same time. Now if that's not good enough for you or you aren't satisfied then by all means take it up with God when you see him 😊 For the wise and intelligent, example and sign is more than enough. But for the dumb and dull minded, well you think and speak for yourself. I'll leave that to you 😊
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"Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention"
Again what would you like, an example or a long and lengthy list before it makes any sense to you, before it actually hits you 😊 Do you believe that there were 124,000 Messengers and Prophets, I'm sure you do. Allah has mentioned and given an example at the same time. Now if that's not good enough for you or you aren't satisfied then by all means take it up with God when you see him 😊 For the wise and intelligent, example and sign is more than enough. But for the dumb and dull minded, well you think and speak for yourself. I'll leave that to you 😊
No I would like a simple CLEAR example which you cannot provide any especially from the Quran you cannot even provide CLEAR proof from sunnah either on promotion theory, all you have is your own desired opinion as can be seen😉
Your last post says you haven’t a CLEAR answer on why Ibrahim as was promoted.......oh my!
Either you don’t understand questions or you are simply dancing around the question and answering by counter questioning, any which way and you still haven’t an answer, your easy just imagine the layman Shiite out there I feel sorry for them no wonder the ones I know,they won’t talk deep about this fake man made theory of divine Imamate if their great intelligent one like iceman cannot answer.......alhamdulillah👍
This is how easy it is for a layman Sunni, on how HARD it is for a Shiite to prove Imamate😂😂😂😂😂👍👍
No Imamate
No promotion
Shura trumps both alhamdulillah😊👍
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No I would like a simple CLEAR example which you cannot provide any especially from the Quran you cannot even provide CLEAR proof from sunnah either on promotion theory, all you have is your own desired opinion as can be seen😉
Your last post says you haven’t a CLEAR answer on why Ibrahim as was promoted.......oh my!
Either you don’t understand questions or you are simply dancing around the question and answering by counter questioning, any which way and you still haven’t an answer, your easy just imagine the layman Shiite out there I feel sorry for them no wonder the ones I know,they won’t talk deep about this fake man made theory of divine Imamate if their great intelligent one like iceman cannot answer.......alhamdulillah👍
This is how easy it is for a layman Sunni, on how HARD it is for a Shiite to prove Imamate😂😂😂😂😂👍👍
No Imamate
No promotion
Shura trumps both alhamdulillah😊👍
Why did Allah mention the situation of Abraham by giving this example? Surely there is a reason and purpose. You don't believe Abraham was promoted? 😊
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And what do you say about Messenger hood and Prophecy,
1, The same rank but two different names.
2, Two different ranks but of the same nature and level.
3, Two separate ranks and of a different level, one being above and higher than the other.
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@iceman:
Can a person who isn’t born as an Imam be promoted to being an Imam?
My understanding is that the usage of the term ‘Imam’ in the verse regarding Ibrahim AS is not the same as the shia usage for that word. This due to shia Imams being born as Imams whereas in the verse it says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam later in life.
For me this term Imam in the verse is ‘leader’, there are various leadership positions & qualities. Its not the shia belief of Imamate for me.
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Iceman?
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@iceman:
Can a person who isn’t born as an Imam be promoted to being an Imam?
My understanding is that the usage of the term ‘Imam’ in the verse regarding Ibrahim AS is not the same as the shia usage for that word. This due to shia Imams being born as Imams whereas in the verse it says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam later in life.
For me this term Imam in the verse is ‘leader’, there are various leadership positions & qualities. Its not the shia belief of Imamate for me.
"Can a person who isn’t born as an Imam be promoted to being an Imam?"
My answer would be YES. The example would be of Abraham. He wasn't born as an Imam but was made an Imam, yes after he was tried of course.
"My understanding is that the usage of the term ‘Imam’ in the verse regarding Ibrahim AS is not the same as the shia usage for that word"
You have a right to your understanding. But you also need to recognise the rights of others.
"This due to shia Imams being born as Imams whereas in the verse it says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam later in life"
Of course, what is difficult for our Lord. Were all Messengers equal? No. They were all Messengers but some were raised above others. And some were not only Messengers but were also Prophets as well as Messengers.
The Ahle Sunah vary on the status of Muhammad s.a.w. Some believe he was a Messenger since birth. In other words he was born as a Messenger. Others believe he became a Messenger when he declared his Messenger status. Some believe he was a Messenger even before birth.
"For me this term Imam in the verse is ‘leader’ "
Ok, what about Messenger hood and Prophecy, is that not leadership as well? If 'Imam' means 'leader' then was Abraham not a leader of the people when he was a Messenger and Prophet?
"there are various leadership positions & qualities."
Would you elaborate on that. If you don't mind explaining yourself.
"Its not the shia belief of Imamate for me"
That's fine. You have a right to your opinion. But do try to respect opinion of others. One thing should be established by now that there is such thing as Imamah and it does exist in the Qur'an.
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Why did Allah mention the situation of Abraham by giving this example? Surely there is a reason and purpose. You don't believe Abraham was promoted? 😊
NO ........(move on)!!
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And what do you say about Messenger hood and Prophecy,
1, The same rank but two different names.
2, Two different ranks but of the same nature and level.
3, Two separate ranks and of a different level, one being above and higher than the other.
Forget the 2 titles the most important for you and the one I am arguing against is (divine) leadership for which you are STRUGGLING to answer, as can be seen again and again, I mean you lot aren’t 10-15% of the Muslim population with ideas like that.....are you?😉
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"Can a person who isn’t born as an Imam be promoted to being an Imam?"
My answer would be YES. The example would be of Abraham. He wasn't born as an Imam but was made an Imam, yes after he was tried of course.
"My understanding is that the usage of the term ‘Imam’ in the verse regarding Ibrahim AS is not the same as the shia usage for that word"
You have a right to your understanding. But you also need to recognise the rights of others.
"This due to shia Imams being born as Imams whereas in the verse it says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam later in life"
Of course, what is difficult for our Lord. Were all Messengers equal? No. They were all Messengers but some were raised above others. And some were not only Messengers but were also Prophets as well as Messengers.
The Ahle Sunah vary on the status of Muhammad s.a.w. Some believe he was a Messenger since birth. In other words he was born as a Messenger. Others believe he became a Messenger when he declared his Messenger status. Some believe he was a Messenger even before birth.
"For me this term Imam in the verse is ‘leader’ "
Ok, what about Messenger hood and Prophecy, is that not leadership as well? If 'Imam' means 'leader' then was Abraham not a leader of the people when he was a Messenger and Prophet?
"there are various leadership positions & qualities."
Would you elaborate on that. If you don't mind explaining yourself.
"Its not the shia belief of Imamate for me"
That's fine. You have a right to your opinion. But do try to respect opinion of others. One thing should be established by now that there is such thing as Imamah and it does exist in the Qur'an.
My understanding is that it refers to leadership & yes Prophets & messengers were leaders but their leadership can vary. Not all led the same nations or same people. Clearly Ibrahim AS was given the special leadership of the children of Israel.
Its a reminder of this special position he was granted after he earned it.
If he was already a Prophet & messenger & thus already a leader (which you admit), then it makes no sense to say he was promoted to an Imam.
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My understanding is that it refers to leadership & yes Prophets & messengers were leaders but their leadership can vary. Not all led the same nations or same people. Clearly Ibrahim AS was given the special leadership of the children of Israel.
Its a reminder of this special position he was granted after he earned it.
If he was already a Prophet & messenger & thus already a leader (which you admit), then it makes no sense to say he was promoted to an Imam.
"My understanding is that it refers to leadership & yes Prophets & messengers were leaders but their leadership can vary"
This is what I also believe in that leadership does vary. And so do the titles be it Messenger hood, Prophecy or Imamah and their nature.
"Clearly Ibrahim AS was given the special leadership of the children of Israel"
Absolutely, this proves that apart from Messenger hood and Prophecy we do have a position which you have called SPECIAL LEADERSHIP.
"Its a reminder of this special position he was granted after he earned it"
Reminder for what and regarding whom? Surely there must be a reason and purpose for such a reminder. Otherwise why would Allah mention it?
"If he was already a Prophet & messenger & thus already a leader (which you admit), then it makes no sense to say he was promoted to an Imam"
Absolutely, we have established that this is a special position and it is separate from Messenger hood and Prophecy. We have to accept one of two based on logic that either he was promoted or given a title of a similar level and grade but of a different nature.
Thanks for a healthy and constructive discussion. That's all I was asking for. I hope the others can and will learn from you.
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Forget the 2 titles the most important for you and the one I am arguing against is (divine) leadership for which you are STRUGGLING to answer, as can be seen again and again, I mean you lot aren’t 10-15% of the Muslim population with ideas like that.....are you?😉
Divine leadership, that would be Imamah. An example from the Qur'an, yes of course. Abraham was made an Imam of the people by being granted Imamah. You still want to dance around it 😊
Read the Qur'an and look at the history of mankind. Always only the minority believed. And the majority always went astray 😊
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NO ........(move on)!!
We have. The only problem is you haven’t. And you need to. 😊 Be and let be. Live and let live. Leave yourself and us alone. Give it a test and get on with it. 😊
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"My understanding is that it refers to leadership & yes Prophets & messengers were leaders but their leadership can vary"
This is what I also believe in that leadership does vary. And so do the titles be it Messenger hood, Prophecy or Imamah and their nature.
"Clearly Ibrahim AS was given the special leadership of the children of Israel"
Absolutely, this proves that apart from Messenger hood and Prophecy we do have a position which you have called SPECIAL LEADERSHIP.
"Its a reminder of this special position he was granted after he earned it"
Reminder for what and regarding whom? Surely there must be a reason and purpose for such a reminder. Otherwise why would Allah mention it?
"If he was already a Prophet & messenger & thus already a leader (which you admit), then it makes no sense to say he was promoted to an Imam"
Absolutely, we have established that this is a special position and it is separate from Messenger hood and Prophecy. We have to accept one of two based on logic that either he was promoted or given a title of a similar level and grade but of a different nature.
Thanks for a healthy and constructive discussion. That's all I was asking for. I hope the others can and will learn from you.
But to me the station you speak of doesn’t seem valid to me. You say proof that a prophet is promoted to Imamate by being given a special leadership position. That is they ACTIVELY LEAD a nation. But your Imams 4-12 never lead no people or nation.
Your premise does not stand ground in my opinion.
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But to me the station you speak of doesn’t seem valid to me. You say proof that a prophet is promoted to Imamate by being given a special leadership position. That is they ACTIVELY LEAD a nation. But your Imams 4-12 never lead no people or nation.
Your premise does not stand ground in my opinion.
which is a greater "kingdom": obedience to a king/ruler through "sword" or obedience to an imam through the command of Allah?
AFAIK, from shia's perspective, obedience by the command of Allah as per Quran 4:59 is a greater kingdom than the rulership/kingship of Umayyads/Abbasiads. But of course, this verse means different thing to different people. Allah knows best.
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Divine leadership, that would be Imamah. An example from the Qur'an, yes of course. Abraham was made an Imam of the people by being granted Imamah. You still want to dance around it 😊
Read the Qur'an and look at the history of mankind. Always only the minority believed. And the majority always went astray 😊
Yea divine leadership imamamah you HAVENT proved it your dancing around with your own interpretations desires and ideas........verse of Ibrahim as doesn’t help you either for it’s just leadership like any other.😊
so according to your logic Allah swt let majority of the ummah of prophet saw go astray? And the truth is with the minority? Ok Qadianis are smaller than you so they must be on truth according to your logic!😂😂😂👍
Bubbles 😜
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We have. The only problem is you haven’t. And you need to. 😊 Be and let be. Live and let live. Leave yourself and us alone. Give it a test and get on with it. 😊
What are you on?
I said no to the stupid idea of promotion.....doh!😉
Don’t worry about me I have an imam mashallah he is a great teacher at our masjid but he ain’t got no special powers......you know what I mean?😜
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which is a greater "kingdom": obedience to a king/ruler through "sword" or obedience to an imam through the command of Allah?
AFAIK, from shia's perspective, obedience by the command of Allah as per Quran 4:59 is a greater kingdom than the rulership/kingship of Umayyads/Abbasiads. But of course, this verse means different thing to different people. Allah knows best.
Please read again. Iceman is using the verse regarding Ibrahim AS as evidence & comparison. Ibrahim AS actively led. Your Imams 4-12 did not.
So if Ibrahim AS was promoted to this special status of being chosen to actively lead, then yours Imams were already born as Imams according to you. That is the first inconsistency. Secondly, numbers 4-12 never actively led.
Thirdly, I see no historical evidence to suggest the 9-12 Imams in particular were even scholars, let alone on a special station they had since birth, a station Ibrahim AS the prophet did not have at birth but had to earn later in his life according to you.
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Please read again. Iceman is using the verse regarding Ibrahim AS as evidence & comparison. Ibrahim AS actively led. Your Imams 4-12 did not.
So if Ibrahim AS was promoted to this special status of being chosen to actively lead, then yours Imams were already born as Imams according to you. That is the first inconsistency. Secondly, numbers 4-12 never actively led.
Thirdly, I see no historical evidence to suggest the 9-12 Imams in particular were even scholars, let alone on a special station they had since birth, a station Ibrahim AS the prophet did not have at birth but had to earn later in his life according to you.
oic. i'm neither here nor there.
i try to see both sides of the coin and follow the best of it. i've read both shia (https://shiapdfresources.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/imamate-divineguide.pdf) and salafi (http://mahajjah.com/shia-beliefs-quran-and-imamah-by-abu-muhammad-al-afriqi/)'s view on imamate.
IMO, even though it's against Quran [30:32],
[Shakir 30:32] Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
maybe it's time to do positive advertising, if each sect want to promote his. Allah knows best.
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oic. i'm neither here nor there.
i try to see both sides of the coin and follow the best of it. i've read both shia (https://shiapdfresources.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/imamate-divineguide.pdf) and salafi (http://mahajjah.com/shia-beliefs-quran-and-imamah-by-abu-muhammad-al-afriqi/)'s view on imamate.
IMO, even though it's against Quran [30:32], maybe it's time to do positive advertising, if each sect want to promote his. Allah knows best.
"even though it's against Quran"
Why do you believe it's against the Qur'an?
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"even though it's against Quran"
Why do you believe it's against the Qur'an?IMO, even though it's against Quran [30:32], maybe it's time to do positive advertising, if each sect want to promote his. Allah knows best.
unless we have a bullet-proof evidence(repeat 10x), then i find the following as thought provoking (at least it appears to be so to me).
[Shakir 25:30] And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.
1. Be not disunited
[Shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.
2. When we are disunited
2.1 Prophet saww has no concern
[Shakir 6:159] Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.
2.2 don't rejoice with what we have
[Shakir 30:31] Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists
[Shakir 30:32] Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
2.3 Don't worsen the situation, mocking each other. instead, let's race with one another to virtuous deeds.
[Shakir 5:48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
3. If your are a leader
[Shakir 16:25] That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.
4. If you are a follower
4.1 Don't follow blindly: we may be facing intense regret then.
[Shakir 2:166] When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder.
[Shakir 2:167] And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
4.2 Don't obey a sinner
[Shakir 76:24] Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one
5.0 Munafiq
[Shakir 63:4] And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?
Allah Knows Best.
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unless we have a bullet-proof evidence (repeat 10x), then i find the following as thought provoking (at least it appears to be so to me).
..and also
[Shakir 11:118] And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.
[Shakir 11:119] Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
[Shakir 7:179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.
[Shakir 38:62] And they shall say: What is the matter with us that we do not see men whom we used to count among the vicious?
[Shakir 38:63] Was it that we (only) took them in scorn, or have our eyes (now) turned aside from them?
[Shakir 18:29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve; surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a fire, the curtains of which shall encompass them about; and if they cry for water, they shall be given water like molten brass which will scald their faces; evil the drink and ill the resting-place.
[Shakir 67:10] And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered, we should not have been among the inmates of the burning fire.
[Shakir 7:28] And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this, and Allah has enjoined it on us. Say: Surely Allah does not enjoin indecency; do you say against Allah what you do not know?
[Shakir 36:21] Follow him who does not ask you for reward, and they are the followers of the right course.
[Shakir 24:27] O you who believe! Do not enter houses other than your own houses until you have asked permission and saluted their inmates; this is better for you, that you may be mindful.
[Shakir 24:28] But if you do not find any one therein, then do not enter them until permission is given to you; and if it is said to you: Go back, then go back; this is purer for you; and Allah is Cognizant of what you do.
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No Imamate
No divinity
Shura is the Islamic way of choosing a leader
All these posts and no shia has got anything but long explanations on verses that have nothing to do with stupid divine Imamate theory
Some even tried their hardest to prove such a simple Shiite concept but failed MISERABLY 😂
Alhamdulillah for ahlu sunnah 👍
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No Imamate
No divinity
Shura is the Islamic way of choosing a leader
All these posts and no shia has got anything but long explanations on verses that have nothing to do with stupid divine Imamate theory
Some even tried their hardest to prove such a simple Shiite concept but failed MISERABLY 😂
Alhamdulillah for ahlu sunnah 👍
Pat yourself on the back 😊 Have one from me 😊
"Shura is the Islamic way of choosing a leader"
Can you prove this from the Qur'an, that SHURA is the Islamic way of CHOOSING A LEADER? 😊
Unfortunately this wasn't followed in Saqifa. And wasn't the way of selecting the second and third Caliphs either. 😊
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Pat yourself on the back 😊 Have one from me 😊
"Shura is the Islamic way of choosing a leader"
Can you prove this from the Qur'an, that SHURA is the Islamic way of CHOOSING A LEADER? 😊
Unfortunately this wasn't followed in Saqifa. And wasn't the way of selecting the second and third Caliphs either. 😊
Lol 😂😂😂😂
I only posted that to see if you react.........lo and behold you didn’t fail you posted straight back like a true TROLL
😜👍
As proven by the Quran (read the posts and step out of your Shiite shell) shura is the way of choosing and as proven it’s not in the Quran there is no divine leadership where Allah swt chooses the imam
Kick yourself hard coz you haven’t a clear sign or proof from the Quran infact bang your head more against a wall maybe you will find it..........when you do then come and debate
😂😂😂👍
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Lol 😂😂😂😂
I only posted that to see if you react.........lo and behold you didn’t fail you posted straight back like a true TROLL
😜👍
As proven by the Quran (read the posts and step out of your Shiite shell) shura is the way of choosing and as proven it’s not in the Quran there is no divine leadership where Allah swt chooses the imam
Kick yourself hard coz you haven’t a clear sign or proof from the Quran infact bang your head more against a wall maybe you will find it..........when you do then come and debate
😂😂😂👍
"like a true TROLL"
😊 Well you certainly know your trolls, don't you. It most certainly takes one to know one 😊
"As proven by the Quran (read the posts and step out of your Shiite shell) shura is the way of choosing"
😊 Prove direct and straight from the Qur'an that the Ummah had a right to choose their leader and Muhammad's s.a.w successor.
Show me where the Muslim Ummah have the right to choose their leader by means of Shura. And then explain to me the principles and rules and regulations about Shura and the procedure and method of how it should be conducted, carried out.
And why weren't the second and third Caliph chosen this way 😊 Good luck, you most certainly need it.
I know in return I won't get a pleasant and constructive response. Just smiley faces, gimmicks and tantrums as usual 😊