Anyone want to debate?

[iceman]

There is a very clear verse about Zakah. Allah (SWT) says: "And establish prayer and give zakah and bow with those who bow [in worship and obedience] (2:43)."

Now it's your turn to give us one such verse about Imama.

What is Islam and Shariah law according to you? Just Qur'an or Qur'an and Sunnah?

[sidd.abdul3]

What is Islam and Shariah law according to you? Just Qur'an or Qur'an and Sunnah?

Quran and Sunnah. But the main principles of my beliefs (Salah, Zakah, etc.) are in the Quran. My question is that if you believe the Imama is so important, then why have you still been unable to provide a single unambiguous and clear verse from the Quran regarding the twelve "divine" imams?

[iceman]

Quran and Sunnah. But the main principles of my beliefs (Salah, Zakah, etc.) are in the Quran. My question is that if you believe the Imama is so important, then why have you still been unable to provide a single unambiguous and clear verse from the Quran regarding the twelve "divine" imams?

Where does it say that Imamah or anything else from our side needs to be proven and established from and only the Qur'an? Do you know what our faith and belief is and why we're a little different. I'll explain to you why if you want me to.

[sidd.abdul3]

Where does it say that Imamah or anything else from our side needs to be proven and established from and only the Qur'an? Do you know what our faith and belief is and why we're a little different. I'll explain to you why if you want me to.

I never said it needs to only be from the Quran. I said that it has to at least be in the Quran. If one of your fundamentals is not even mentioned in the Quran, how can you assert its importance in the religion? 

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Where does it say that Imamah or anything else from our side needs to be proven and established from and only the Qur'an? Do you know what our faith and belief is and why we're a little different. I'll explain to you why if you want me to.

Right so Abu Bakrs (may Allah be pleased with him) zakat policy has to be proven from Quran only? (the root issue itself -zakat is clear cut in the Quran).

You’re a joke.

Look at you crying saying you don’t need to prove it from Quran. Even though you do as its the MAIN pillar of your sect.

Pathetic & lost soul.

[Abu Muhammad]

ABSOLUTELY, you have every right to think then ask as such. But in return you must allow exactly the same right to others. Allow me to explain and give you an example.

Zakah is also very important. If you don't give Zakah does any Caliph or ruler have the right to order your execution  and would that be seen as a decision based on Shariah law.

This is also a very serious matter. If the answer is YES then this must come from Allah and therefore has to be in the Qur'an. 

Where does it say that Imamah or anything else from our side needs to be proven and established from and only the Qur'an? Do you know what our faith and belief is and why we're a little different. I'll explain to you why if you want me to.

In conclusion, imamah is not a serious matter since it doesn't need to be proven and established from the Quran.

Hahaha... I love this guy...

[sidd.abdul3]

Iceman. If you're not going to reply with a verse, then you might as well just not reply.

[iceman]

Right so Abu Bakrs (may Allah be pleased with him) zakat policy has to be proven from Quran only? (the root issue itself -zakat is clear cut in the Quran).

You’re a joke.

Look at you crying saying you don’t need to prove it from Quran. Even though you do as its the MAIN pillar of your sect.

Pathetic & lost soul.

Are you still a spoiled child or just haven't been disciplined from day one? I asked time and time again that was Abu Bakr bin Kuafah's decision and Khaled bin Waleed's actions according to government rule or Shariah law.

Does the Caliph have the Islamic right to employ people and force them to collect Zakah. If you don't give Zakah then according to Islam are you supposed to be executed. That's all I asked and it started to kill you.

So look at these questions and then in the mirror and you'll realise who's pathetic and has a lost soul. You alone with a few others really need to watch that filthy mouth of yours.

[iceman]

In conclusion, imamah is not a serious matter since it doesn't need to be proven and established from the Quran.

Hahaha... I love this guy...

What, are we playing dumb here. I said "if the answer is yes then it needs to be proven from the Qur'an or there should be at least some indication in the Qur'an"

that Caliphs/rulers have the Islamic right to employ people to collect Zakah by force and who refuses to give or pay Zakah will be executed according to Islamic rule.

As far as Imamah is concerned, I've asked a question based on the thread and on what we're discussing and you start flying Imamah all over the place because you can't answer.

If you can't answer then just admit it and move on to Imamah or what ever. That's the way forward.

[iceman]

Quran and Sunnah. But the main principles of my beliefs (Salah, Zakah, etc.) are in the Quran. My question is that if you believe the Imama is so important, then why have you still been unable to provide a single unambiguous and clear verse from the Quran regarding the twelve "divine" imams?

What you've asked is something that doesn't have a clear, simple and straightforward answer. Some questions are answered with a yes or no and some need detailed explanation. Some questions are asked due to lack of knowledge and understanding and the question of Shia Imamah is one of those issues.

We can start from the beginning if that's ok with you and you're willing to go ahead. Although this is irrelevant to the thread and what we're discussing but I don't want to use this as an excuse and I don't need to for not answering and explaining. If you still want to go ahead then let me know.

[sidd.abdul3]

What you've asked is something that doesn't have a clear, simple and straightforward answer. Some questions are answered with a yes or no and some need detailed explanation. Some questions are asked due to lack of knowledge and understanding and the question of Shia Imamah is one of those issues.

We can start from the beginning if that's ok with you and you're willing to go ahead. Although this is irrelevant to the thread and what we're discussing but I don't want to use this as an excuse and I don't need to for not answering and explaining. If you still want to go ahead then let me know.

Just answer this: is there a clear and unambiguous verse about the Imamah in the Quran or not?

[iceman]

Just answer this: is there a clear and unambiguous verse about the Imamah in the Quran or not?

Absolutely yes there is, not just one but many that clearly lindicate Imamah is a stage created by Allah and he alone decides on selecting/electing/making Imams. And below is the verse,

"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with His commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: I have appointed you an Imam for mankind. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? He said: My covenant includes not the unjust."
(Surah al Baqarah, 2:124) -

[sidd.abdul3]

Absolutely yes there is, not just one but many that clearly lindicate Imamah is a stage created by Allah and he alone decides on selecting/electing/making Imams. And below is the verse,

"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with His commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: I have appointed you an Imam for mankind. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? He said: My covenant includes not the unjust."
(Surah al Baqarah, 2:124) -

• This verse does not clearly refer to the twelve divine Imams
• Even if this verse was clearly talking about the Imamah, it would mean that Ibrahim (AS) was one of the twelve Imams, which isn't true

[iceman]

• This verse does not clearly refer to the twelve divine Imams
• Even if this verse was clearly talking about the Imamah, it would mean that Ibrahim (AS) was one of the twelve Imams, which isn't true

The question of IMAMAH that is there such a title/grade/stage/level you name it. The answer is YES THERE IS and there are numerous verses and places in the Qur'an that speak about IMAMAH  as well as CALIPHATE.

We Shias believe that just as NABUWAT and RISALAT are from Allah so are IMAMAT and CALIPHATE. And there are clear and cut verses that mention Allah alone chooses and makes IMAMS  and CALIPHAS.

As far as this question goes that is there a clear and cut verse in the Qur'an that clearly mentions and speaks about the 12 Shia Imams and there reign after Muhammad s.a.w the answer is NO.

WHY? Because we all would be believers (Momin) without a choice and definitely without test and trial. Allah gives signs but also leaves room for those who want to think and do otherwise.

This is what it's all about. Just two examples out of many. Why did Allah leave it so long and then sent Muhammad s.a.w to the Christians to tell them that Jesus wasn't crucified? In fact this is what happened to him.

Why didn't Allah make it easy and simple and just mentioned it in the Bible to make the Christians aware in advance and keep them on track.

Despite the Qur'an and Sunnah what did Muhammad s.a.w say near enough to his last days? He asked for a pen and paper so he may right something for his people so they not go astray after him. I believe something was said along those lines.

What does this tell us? That despite Qur'an and Sunnah there is still something short and less and without it the Ummah can go astray. If we think with an open mind only then we can work towards reality and facts.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

What, are we playing dumb here. I said "if the answer is yes then it needs to be proven from the Qur'an or there should be at least some indication in the Qur'an"

that Caliphs/rulers have the Islamic right to employ people to collect Zakah by force and who refuses to give or pay Zakah will be executed according to Islamic rule.

As far as Imamah is concerned, I've asked a question based on the thread and on what we're discussing and you start flying Imamah all over the place because you can't answer.

If you can't answer then just admit it and move on to Imamah or what ever. That's the way forward.

Lets play a fun game called iceman refuting iceman.

So iceman split 1 personality writes the above.

Iceman split personality 2 replies (taken from iceman reply further down a post or two):

“What you've asked is something that doesn't have a clear, simple and straightforward answer. Some questions are answered with a yes or no and some need detailed explanation. “

In previous rounds of Iceman vs Iceman:

Iceman split personality 1 asks proof from Quran only.
Iceman split personality 2 replies not all is in Quran as sharia is Quran AND sunnah.

To be continued no doubt....

[sidd.abdul3]

The question of IMAMAH that is there such a title/grade/stage/level you name it. The answer is YES THERE IS and there are numerous verses and places in the Qur'an that speak about IMAMAH  as well as CALIPHATE.

We Shias believe that just as NABUWAT and RISALAT are from Allah so are IMAMAT and CALIPHATE. And there are clear and cut verses that mention Allah alone chooses and makes IMAMS  and CALIPHAS.

As far as this question goes that is there a clear and cut verse in the Qur'an that clearly mentions and speaks about the 12 Shia Imams and there reign after Muhammad s.a.w the answer is NO.

WHY? Because we all would be believers (Momin) without a choice and definitely without test and trial. Allah gives signs but also leaves room for those who want to think and do otherwise.

This is what it's all about. Just two examples out of many. Why did Allah leave it so long and then sent Muhammad s.a.w to the Christians to tell them that Jesus wasn't crucified? In fact this is what happened to him.

Why didn't Allah make it easy and simple and just mentioned it in the Bible to make the Christians aware in advance and keep them on track.

Despite the Qur'an and Sunnah what did Muhammad s.a.w say near enough to his last days? He asked for a pen and paper so he may right something for his people so they not go astray after him. I believe something was said along those lines.

What does this tell us? That despite Qur'an and Sunnah there is still something short and less and without it the Ummah can go astray. If we think with an open mind only then we can work towards reality and facts.

• So Allah (SWT) decided to leave out something from the Quran that decides whether or not we are believers? That's nonsense. Even if Allah (SWT) had put it in the Quran, we would still have the choice to believe in it or not.
• It is quite clear from the Bible that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified. Deuteronomy 21:23 says: "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse". Jesus (AS) could not have been cursed. Also, even if there wasn't anything in the Bible that proved that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified, it wouldn't have mattered because the Bible has been changed and altered. So unless you believe that the Quran has also been changed and altered, there must be a clear proof from the Quran about the twelve Imams. 

[iceman]

• So Allah (SWT) decided to leave out something from the Quran that decides whether or not we are believers? That's nonsense. Even if Allah (SWT) had put it in the Quran, we would still have the choice to believe in it or not.
• It is quite clear from the Bible that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified. Deuteronomy 21:23 says: "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse". Jesus (AS) could not have been cursed. Also, even if there wasn't anything in the Bible that proved that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified, it wouldn't have mattered because the Bible has been changed and altered. So unless you believe that the Quran has also been changed and altered, there must be a clear proof from the Quran about the twelve Imams. 

You have two words and stages of belief; 1, Muslim. 2, Momin. Do you believe they're both and mean the same?

Let me tell you what Allah has to say.

Surah Al Hujurat (49:14)

"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Allah has never let anything out but it is us (we and you) that decide what should be in or out or why isn't this over here or over there. It shouldn't be as such.

No, if something is in black and white then you don't have a choice. The only choice you have is to either accept or reject. If you accept then you're in but if you reject then you're out.

But the trial and test is to offer and see, just as the Muhammed s.a.w asked for pen and paper and gave a clear reason to why. Those who were in favour were in but  those who opposed were also in but their intentions came clear.

[sidd.abdul3]

You have two words and stages of belief; 1, Muslim. 2, Momin. Do you believe they're both and mean the same?

Let me tell you what Allah has to say.

Surah Al Hujurat (49:14)

"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Allah has never let anything out but it is us (we and you) that decide what should be in or out or why isn't this over here or over there. It shouldn't be as such.

No, if something is in black and white then you don't have a choice. The only choice you have is to either accept or reject. If you accept then you're in but if you reject then you're out.

But the trial and test is to offer and see, just as the Muhammed s.a.w asked for pen and paper and gave a clear reason to why. Those who were in favour were in but  those who opposed were also in but their intentions came clear.

Okay. I'm done talking to you. Your logic makes absolutely no sense.

[iceman]

Okay. I'm done talking to you. Your logic makes absolutely no sense.
[/quote

Ask yourself this, did Muhammad s.a.w ask for a pen and paper? Why did he ask for a pen and paper? So he may right something for them (people of the time, Azwaaj, Asshaab, family, relatives, friends etc). Right what and what for? Something that they will not go astray after him s.a.w.
one can say well this sounds important, in fact it sounds very important but if it was that important then why isn't it in the Qur'an?

See what I mean? You can start asking yourself that, we have Qur'an and Sunnah then what was the need for what he s.a.w wanted to right? Surely if it was that important then Allah would have it in the Qur'an? Because it's not in the Qur'an then surely it's not that important? You can go on and on and on.

The bottom line is you need this type of discussion to think openly. What's important, QUR'AN or MUHAMMAD S.A.W? It's obvious both are important. But which one would you put first? QUR'AN or MUHAMMAD S.A.W?

Think about it but a point to be noted, when Muhammad s.a.w asked for the pen and paper and gave the reason why a person objected. He put the Qur'an first by saying "the book of Allah is enough for us". He made his position clear by saying this and many others sided with him.

[iceman]

• So Allah (SWT) decided to leave out something from the Quran that decides whether or not we are believers? That's nonsense. Even if Allah (SWT) had put it in the Quran, we would still have the choice to believe in it or not.
• It is quite clear from the Bible that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified. Deuteronomy 21:23 says: "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse". Jesus (AS) could not have been cursed. Also, even if there wasn't anything in the Bible that proved that Jesus (AS) wasn't crucified, it wouldn't have mattered because the Bible has been changed and altered. So unless you believe that the Quran has also been changed and altered, there must be a clear proof from the Quran about the twelve Imams. 

What proof do you have that the Bible was changed and altered and why? Bible is also a holy book and scripture just like the Qur'an, are you saying that the Qur'an couldn't be changed and altered but Bible has been? Why? Allah is protecting one holy scripture but didn't bother with the other? Doesn't make any sense. All scriptures are holy and should be protected.