Anyone want to debate?

[iceman]

In conclusion, imamah is not a serious matter since it doesn't need to be proven and established from the Quran.

Hahaha... I love this guy...

If Imamah is a serious matter, which I'm sure it is and you would agree to it, then it most definitely needs to be proven from the Qur'an and the Qur'an only according to your terms, logic and ideology. I mean your kind and likes have been banging on about this for God knows how long.

Now I turn around and ask you to provide evidence from the Qur'an about something equally serious and important according to your own ideology and thinking (not mine) and you start jumping up and down over it 😊 This is what its all about.

[Mythbuster1]

And there I thought you weren't a QUR'ANIST 😀 Honestly what a show you put on. You're neither here or there, are you.

Lol it’s not my fault Allah swt didn’t put the main article of faith for Shiites in the Quran........you can only find it in unauthentic works instead.

Even a bigger pity is you when I asked you to find it for us in the Quran and till this day you cannot find imarmite but you will find shura that beats imarmite for the simple fact that it’s MENTIONED in the Quran.

Game set and match.............still waiting IF you do find it, and IF you do am still here in this forum I ain’t gonna go into hiding cos I am scared lol.......good luck chuck😜👍👍

Get help from them vids of Sunnis you have been posting too😜😜😜

[iceman]

Lol it’s not my fault Allah swt didn’t put the main article of faith for Shiites in the Quran........you can only find it in unauthentic works instead.

Even a bigger pity is you when I asked you to find it for us in the Quran and till this day you cannot find imarmite but you will find shura that beats imarmite for the simple fact that it’s MENTIONED in the Quran.

Game set and match.............still waiting IF you do find it, and IF you do am still here in this forum I ain’t gonna go into hiding cos I am scared lol.......good luck chuck😜👍👍

Get help from them vids of Sunnis you have been posting too😜😜😜

Well I'm pretty well sure you won't go into hiding when it comes to demanding Imamah from the Qur'an, when it's been proven time and time again but not according to your will, wish and desire. But you definitely will go into hiding after you've finished running when you're expected to deliver on exactly the same basis and ground as you demand.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

If Imamah is a serious matter, which I'm sure it is and you would agree to it, then it most definitely needs to be proven from the Qur'an and the Qur'an only according to your terms, logic and ideology. I mean your kind and likes have been banging on about this for God knows how long.

Now I turn around and ask you to provide evidence from the Qur'an about something equally serious and important according to your own ideology and thinking (not mine) and you start jumping up and down over it 😊 This is what its all about.

Zakah is mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
Imamah of your 12 Imams isn’t.

As for the details of zakat collection, its not the Quran as the method of prayer isn’t (but prayer is explicitly mentioned).

The finer details are found in the Sunnah & Ali understood it well😃

[Mythbuster1]

Well I'm pretty well sure you won't go into hiding when it comes to demanding Imamah from the Qur'an, when it's been proven time and time again but not according to your will, wish and desire. But you definitely will go into hiding after you've finished running when you're expected to deliver on exactly the same basis and ground as you demand.

EMPTY words or in other words all FULL OF HOT AIR......come on icepop you must have something of substance to back imarmite from Quran......remember SHURA is backed up by Quran but imarmite is not.......is it hiding so only the Shiites can see it?😂

Foolish people offer challenges which they can’t keep.......and imarmite has definitely got you lot FOOLED😂😂

[iceman]

Zakah is mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
Imamah of your 12 Imams isn’t.

As for the details of zakat collection, its not the Quran as the method of prayer isn’t (but prayer is explicitly mentioned).

The finer details are found in the Sunnah & Ali understood it well😃

"Zakah is mentioned explicitly in the Quran. Imamah of your 12 Imams isn’t"

Just as Zakah is mentioned in the Qur'an so is Imamah. The finer details are found in the Sunnah & only Ali and his Shia understood it well

You've just said it for me. 😃

[iceman]

EMPTY words or in other words all FULL OF HOT AIR......come on icepop you must have something of substance to back imarmite from Quran......remember SHURA is backed up by Quran but imarmite is not.......is it hiding so only the Shiites can see it?😂

Foolish people offer challenges which they can’t keep.......and imarmite has definitely got you lot FOOLED😂😂

I've already backed Imamah from the Qur'an and it's been done numerous times over. Now if your arrogance and blindness does allow you to accept it then that's not my fault or problem.

Imamah has been mentioned in the Qur'an and the finer details are in the Sunnah. It's clear why you're having problems acknowledging and accepting it because if you do then Saqifa goes straight out of the window.

[Mythbuster1]

I've already backed Imamah from the Qur'an and it's been done numerous times over. Now if your arrogance and blindness does allow you to accept it then that's not my fault or problem.

Imamah has been mentioned in the Qur'an and the finer details are in the Sunnah. It's clear why you're having problems acknowledging and accepting it because if you do then Saqifa goes straight out of the window.

NO you have  NOT, NOR have you EVER proved it........NO concept, idea or even an inkling of any smell of divine Imamate in Quran hence you are still here talking mumbo jumbo......a main pillar of Shiite faith at best is a GUESS, the verses you posted have nothing to do with Imamate even then you post bits and disregard the rest of the verses, infact there is NO fine detail in sunnah either......our sunnah not your fairytale sunnah that has no authenticity

And you can only call people arrogant and blind cos you have NOTHING else to back up your claim of divine Imamate

What a pity the actions at saqifa is mentioned......SHURA

Running around and around around but no mention of it from the Almighty or the greatest prophet saw, yet you insist it’s there just like the hidden imam you say he is here hiding but there is no proof of such..........double whammy for you mate

You will NEVER prove imarmite.......EVER.....as can be seen by your abysmal answers😂

[iceman]

NO you have  NOT, NOR have you EVER proved it........NO concept, idea or even an inkling of any smell of divine Imamate in Quran hence you are still here talking mumbo jumbo......a main pillar of Shiite faith at best is a GUESS, the verses you posted have nothing to do with Imamate even then you post bits and disregard the rest of the verses, infact there is NO fine detail in sunnah either......our sunnah not your fairytale sunnah that has no authenticity

And you can only call people arrogant and blind cos you have NOTHING else to back up your claim of divine Imamate

What a pity the actions at saqifa is mentioned......SHURA

Running around and around around but no mention of it from the Almighty or the greatest prophet saw, yet you insist it’s there just like the hidden imam you say he is here hiding but there is no proof of such..........double whammy for you mate

You will NEVER prove imarmite.......EVER.....as can be seen by your abysmal answers😂

😀 Here it is once again just for your eyes only,

وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

This is more than enough for any sane person to know and understand that there is a grade/title that is known and recognised as Imamah and Allah alone chooses and makes Imams.

This is absolute and solid proof of Imamah. Now will there be Imams after Muhammad s.a.w or will Muhammad s.a.w choose his successor is down to Muhammad s.a.w himself. This bit has to do with Sunnah.

If you even try to look in this direction with a little bit of logic and sense and a bit of open mind then it is absolutely obvious that Saqifa and the immature and coincidental decision reached will surely be under threat. That's what's keeping you.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

"Zakah is mentioned explicitly in the Quran. Imamah of your 12 Imams isn’t"

Just as Zakah is mentioned in the Qur'an so is Imamah. The finer details are found in the Sunnah & only Ali and his Shia understood it well

You've just said it for me. 😃

Look up the word ‘explicitly’.
English is obviously not your first language.
NOWHERE is Imamate of your 12 Imams mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
Zakat on the other hand is explicitly mentioned.

[iceman]

Look up the word ‘explicitly’.
English is obviously not your first language.
NOWHERE is Imamate of your 12 Imams mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
Zakat on the other hand is explicitly mentioned.

Is Imamah mentioned in the Qur'an or not? Is there such a status as Imamah just as Nabuwah and Risalah? Does Allah choose and make Imams or not? Has Allah not mentioned in the Qur'an that he choose and made Imams? How many questions would you like me to hit you with? Imamah has been mentioned in the Qur'an and there have been Imams chosen and made in the past. Now from here just tell me that the Prophet's s.a.w word ain't good enough and acceptable for you. Well nothing would be acceptable for you again because SAQIFA SHATTERS, BREAKS THEN CRUMBLES. That's what bothers you.


It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).

According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:

“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”

“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”

According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

The number 12 has been repeatedly used in all. Not any other number but just 12. You're probably going to call it a coincidence?

"English is obviously not your first language"

Knowledge and information clearly isn't your thing.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Is Imamah mentioned in the Qur'an or not? Is there such a status as Imamah just as Nabuwah and Risalah? Does Allah choose and make Imams or not? Has Allah not mentioned in the Qur'an that he choose and made Imams? How many questions would you like me to hit you with? Imamah has been mentioned in the Qur'an and there have been Imams chosen and made in the past. Now from here just tell me that the Prophet's s.a.w word ain't good enough and acceptable for you. Well nothing would be acceptable for you again because SAQIFA SHATTERS, BREAKS THEN CRUMBLES. That's what bothers you.


It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).

According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:

“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”

“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”

According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

The number 12 has been repeatedly used in all. Not any other number but just 12. You're probably going to call it a coincidence?

"English is obviously not your first language"

Knowledge and information clearly isn't your thing.

Again, clearly you’re not well versed in the English language.
At best, everything you mentioned in the Quran is implicit & NOT EXPLICIT AT ALL.
You failed again.
There is not one single explicit reference to the Imamate of your 12 Imams in the Quran.
Zakat on the other hand is clearly & explicitly mentioned numerous times.
The finer details of Zakat collection (like the finer details on how to pray) are to be found in the sunnah, with Ali ENFORCING ITS COLLECTION just like Abu Bakr.
You think you understand the Quran more than Ali. Your arrogance has made you oppose your own no.1 Imam.
Such is the disgrace thats fallen on you.

[iceman]

Again, clearly you’re not well versed in the English language.
At best, everything you mentioned in the Quran is implicit & NOT EXPLICIT AT ALL.
You failed again.
There is not one single explicit reference to the Imamate of your 12 Imams in the Quran.
Zakat on the other hand is clearly & explicitly mentioned numerous times.
The finer details of Zakat collection (like the finer details on how to pray) are to be found in the sunnah, with Ali ENFORCING ITS COLLECTION just like Abu Bakr.
You think you understand the Quran more than Ali. Your arrogance has made you oppose your own no.1 Imam.
Such is the disgrace thats fallen on you.

And again you are dancing around the subject under discussion. Imamah has clearly been proven from the Qur'an  that there is such thing as Imamah and has been from Allah. What happens after the Prophet s.a.w and the finer details lie with Muhammad s.a.w himself and he has clearly clarified them and what is going to happen after him s.a.w .

Zakat  along with fasting and prayers have been mentioned and the finer details rest with Muhammad s.a.w. The same applies to Imamah.

[Mythbuster1]

😀 Here it is once again just for your eyes only,

وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

This is more than enough for any sane person to know and understand that there is a grade/title that is known and recognised as Imamah and Allah alone chooses and makes Imams.

This is absolute and solid proof of Imamah. Now will there be Imams after Muhammad s.a.w or will Muhammad s.a.w choose his successor is down to Muhammad s.a.w himself. This bit has to do with Sunnah.

If you even try to look in this direction with a little bit of logic and sense and a bit of open mind then it is absolutely obvious that Saqifa and the immature and coincidental decision reached will surely be under threat. That's what's keeping you.

Yes Allah swt MADE Ibrahim as an IMAM......A Leader promised by Allah swt to His prophet and His offspring were leaders through ishaq as and Ishmael as, it’s known history.

Where is the concept of divine leadership/Imamate? How come Allah swt left that main bit out?
The above verse in no way insinuates or says anything about divine leadership, the above verse you quoted is talking about a ......NABI .......were any ahle baith ra after prophet saw NABIS?

You call the above solid proof? Allah swt made Ibrahim as an imam a leader as it says in the Quran.......not gave him divine leadership, Come on iceman is that all you got?
Using a verse for a prophet of Allah swt and using it for an unknown concept.....divine Imamate?

You have to explain clearer than that mate no wonder shiism hasn’t grown or will ever grow cos you are using verses like this to prove an alien concept that doesn’t even exist.

No point going to sunnah for the moment you need to clearly find the divinity Imamate concept CLEAR from the Quran so as Muslims we can follow.

You cannot move past imarmite forget saqifa ibn Saba has really fooled you guys and your stuck like a broken record using the same verses repeating the same mantra that doesn’t even add up.

😂

[zaid_ibn_ali]

And again you are dancing around the subject under discussion. Imamah has clearly been proven from the Qur'an  that there is such thing as Imamah and has been from Allah. What happens after the Prophet s.a.w and the finer details lie with Muhammad s.a.w himself and he has clearly clarified them and what is going to happen after him s.a.w .

Zakat  along with fasting and prayers have been mentioned and the finer details rest with Muhammad s.a.w. The same applies to Imamah.

FAIL.
I searched whole Quran & nothing there about your 12 Imams.
You still don’t know the meaning of the world EXPLICIT!
Will you ever stop embarassing yourself.
You want proof of a secondary branch issue (zakat collection policy, the primary branch being zakat which is clear in Quran), yet you can’t provide proof of your primary belief of Imamate of 12 Imams from the Quran.
Complete FAIL.

[iceman]

Yes Allah swt MADE Ibrahim as an IMAM......A Leader promised by Allah swt to His prophet and His offspring were leaders through ishaq as and Ishmael as, it’s known history.

Where is the concept of divine leadership/Imamate? How come Allah swt left that main bit out?
The above verse in no way insinuates or says anything about divine leadership, the above verse you quoted is talking about a ......NABI .......were any ahle baith ra after prophet saw NABIS?

You call the above solid proof? Allah swt made Ibrahim as an imam a leader as it says in the Quran.......not gave him divine leadership, Come on iceman is that all you got?
Using a verse for a prophet of Allah swt and using it for an unknown concept.....divine Imamate?

You have to explain clearer than that mate no wonder shiism hasn’t grown or will ever grow cos you are using verses like this to prove an alien concept that doesn’t even exist.

No point going to sunnah for the moment you need to clearly find the divinity Imamate concept CLEAR from the Quran so as Muslims we can follow.

You cannot move past imarmite forget saqifa ibn Saba has really fooled you guys and your stuck like a broken record using the same verses repeating the same mantra that doesn’t even add up.

😂

Abraham was already a Messenger and a Prophet, so aren't Messengers and Prophets leaders as well? After Abraham was tested, trialed by his Lord (after this) he was made an IMAM of the people. Was he not a leader before he was made an Imam, if you translate Imam as just a leader?

Come on, lets wake up and be reasonable about this. Just as Nabuwah and Risalah are God created titles and grades, Caliphate and Imamah are also God created titles and grades. Adam was made a Caliph on earth and Abraham was made an Imam of the people.

One or two examples are more than enough for the intelligent and wise to understand.

[Mythbuster1]

Abraham was already a Messenger and a Prophet, so aren't Messengers and Prophets leaders as well? After Abraham was tested, trialed by his Lord (after this) he was made an IMAM of the people. Was he not a leader before he was made an Imam, if you translate Imam as just a leader?

Come on, lets wake up and be reasonable about this. Just as Nabuwah and Risalah are God created titles and grades, Caliphate and Imamah are also God created titles and grades. Adam was made a Caliph on earth and Abraham was made an Imam of the people.

One or two examples are more than enough for the intelligent and wise to understand.

Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)


1) Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran

2) prophethood Allah swt chooses,  leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet

Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?

Your not one of them who believes imams are higher than prophets apart from prophet saw😳......are you?🙃

[iceman]

Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)


1) Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran

2) prophethood Allah swt chooses,  leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet

Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?

Your not one of them who believes imams are higher than prophets apart from prophet saw😳......are you?🙃

"Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)"

One step at a time. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or do you think he was given a title of a similar level?   
Is Nabuwah above and higher than Imamah, if it is then Abraham was demoted. If Imamah is above and higher than Nabuwah then it is obvious that Abraham was promoted. You tell me? Come on and give it a try. Don't be hesitant and shy.

"Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran"

Where does it say that you have to be a Prophet before you can be an Imam or Caliph. Why do you want evidence only and just from the Qur'an? Are you a QUR'ANIST? If I ask you to provide something from the Qur'an you start jumping up and down. If I ask you to explain yourselves you start dancing around. Make up your mind, do you just and only want to stick to the Qur'an, then you better start delivering.

"prophethood Allah swt chooses,  leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet

Allah choose the Ahlul Bayth as guides to govern after Muhammad s.a.w. And Muhammad s.a.w clearly stated the following,

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).

According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:

“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”

“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”

According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

"Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?

He wasn't a Prophet because you don't have to be  Prophet to be an Imam or Caliph.

Take a note of this;

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ.

And we made of them Imams to guide by our command when they were patient and they were certain of our communications. (Surah Sajdah 32:24)

Were the above Prophets and Messengers before they were made Imams? You tell me? Please do inform and educate me.

Lets not leave Adam out of it. He was made a Caliph on earth. Caliph upon whom? If there was no one on earth then who was he made a Caliph on?

[iceman]

Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)


1) Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran

2) prophethood Allah swt chooses,  leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet

Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?

Your not one of them who believes imams are higher than prophets apart from prophet saw😳......are you?🙃

"how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate"

Are you a QUR'ANIST? You demand a CLEAR VERSE but when asked can't even give an indication from the Qur'an, never mind about a clear verse.

[iceman]

Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)


1) Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran

2) prophethood Allah swt chooses,  leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet

Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?

Your not one of them who believes imams are higher than prophets apart from prophet saw😳......are you?🙃

So what do you think of this;

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.

And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)

Do you think the above were also Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams 😊