Anyone want to debate?

[iceman]

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا ۖ وَقَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ ۖ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنتُم بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَّأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way."

The number 12 holds a significance in Islam. There are narrations that say the number of Imams are like the 12 leaders of Bani-Israel or 12 Apostles of Prophet Jesus:

[zaid_ibn_ali]

LOL!
Why not mention the 12 Imams of shia? Why only talk about the children of Israel??😂😂😂

[iceman]

LOL!
Why not mention the 12 Imams of shia? Why only talk about the children of Israel??😂😂😂

Do you have everything in Taura? Do you have everything in Zaboor? Do you have everything in Injeel? Why does Qur'an speak about certain matters concerning the peopke of those books? Lets not go too far back, why doesn’t the Bible mention the occultation of Jesus and that actually he wasn't crucified? The signs and indications are there and Muhammad s.a.w confirmed it. But people in the Ummah had other intentions just as you're constantly trying to reject and over look it. You need to connect the dots. The intelligent and wise figure it out for themselves. They don't need it in black and white and spelled out for them.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Do you have everything in Taura? Do you have everything in Zaboor? Do you have everything in Injeel? Why does Qur'an speak about certain matters concerning the peopke of those books? Lets not go too far back, why doesn’t the Bible mention the occultation of Jesus and that actually he wasn't crucified? The signs and indications are there and Muhammad s.a.w confirmed it. But people in the Ummah had other intentions just as you're constantly trying to reject and over look it. You need to connect the dots. The intelligent and wise figure it out for themselves. They don't need it in black and white and spelled out for them.

LOL.
You sound like the shia user called link who got banned for spamming this forum with his nonsense.
So this most important belief of your sect is not clear black & white in Quran. Thank you for admitting that.
So we need to crack the riddles & connect the dots do we?😂😂😂😂

[Mythbuster1]

"Lol you said it......Ibrahim as was made a PROPHET then he was made imam (not a divine imam some sort of divine concept that’s supposedly higher than nabuwwah)"

One step at a time. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or do you think he was given a title of a similar level?   
Is Nabuwah above and higher than Imamah, if it is then Abraham was demoted. If Imamah is above and higher than Nabuwah then it is obvious that Abraham was promoted. You tell me? Come on and give it a try. Don't be hesitant and shy.

"Where is the process or concept for Ali ra and the rest of the 12 imams ra to bypass prophethood and jump on to Imamate? From the Quran"

Where does it say that you have to be a Prophet before you can be an Imam or Caliph. Why do you want evidence only and just from the Qur'an? Are you a QUR'ANIST? If I ask you to provide something from the Qur'an you start jumping up and down. If I ask you to explain yourselves you start dancing around. Make up your mind, do you just and only want to stick to the Qur'an, then you better start delivering.

"prophethood Allah swt chooses,  leaders/imams you can choose yourself by shura as is mentioned CLEAR in the Quran unlike how hard it is for you to pull a CLEAR verse on divine Imamate.....yet

Allah choose the Ahlul Bayth as guides to govern after Muhammad s.a.w. And Muhammad s.a.w clearly stated the following,

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say: “This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).

According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:

“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”

“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”

According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

"Even a fool will understand Ali ra wasn’t a prophet but yet according to you lot he bypassed nabuwwah and became the imam?? HUH?!?!?

He wasn't a Prophet because you don't have to be  Prophet to be an Imam or Caliph.

Take a note of this;

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ.

And we made of them Imams to guide by our command when they were patient and they were certain of our communications. (Surah Sajdah 32:24)

Were the above Prophets and Messengers before they were made Imams? You tell me? Please do inform and educate me.

Lets not leave Adam out of it. He was made a Caliph on earth. Caliph upon whom? If there was no one on earth then who was he made a Caliph on?

So you are a FOOL for believing Imamate is higher than prophethood astaghfirullah and then you tell us you are intelligent? Wise? Hahahaha you crack me up😂

Promotion? Demotion? What? He Ibrahim as was STILL a prophet until the day He passed away so tell me mr smarty pants how was there a promotion? He was also an imam a leader just like prophet saw was, a prophet and an imam/leader for the Muslims.........what’s so hard to understand that?
when did prophet saw get this promotion? And how come imams bypassed nabuwwah to get straight promoted to a higher level than prophets?? The verse states after being tried by His lord He Ibrahim as was made an imam.......what trial did imams go through to become imams??

Demotion promotion are your own ideas and false desires you want to force us to believe otherwise imarmite is dead in the water, you can only use this verse and TWIST it to your own thinking just because of the word Imamate in there lol that’s just stupid and foolish when it’s not even a CLEAR verse.

At least the base of divine Imamate should be CLEAR but as before you have to add your own commentary to it otherwise you have NOTHING, look at you stuck in your explanation which doesn’t even make sense

Icepop come on man you can do better......Ibrahim as gets promoted, prophet saw doesn’t get a mention of promotion and YET imams bypass nabuwwah to get a straight A promotion.........?!?!???!??

I see you couldn’t answer that in your previous post😂

Now straight from that VAGUE verse you will use details of Sunni hadiths to back yourself up😂😂

12 khalif hadiths lol

It has nothing to do with divine leadership reason being no imam was in power and Islam was spread by khalifs and not your so called divine imams even Ali ra who did rule never spread Islam He ra had internal struggles so it wasn’t triumphant then cos of the fitna so please you can’t use your nonsensical ideas here mate😜

Smarty pants if you don’t have to be a prophet to become an imam or khalif then why the PROMOTION for Ibrahim as?? Why wasn’t prophet saw an imam? Why did Allah swt leave prophet saw’s Imamate out but only gave you Ibrahim as’s Imamate?
Prophet saw is mentioned CLEAR as a Nabi but not no imam in the Quran

Promotion demotion 😂😂😂😂

I see your intelligence is getting you tangled 😂😂

[zaid_ibn_ali]

LOL
Iceman just got fired!!😂😂

[iceman]

LOL.
You sound like the shia user called link who got banned for spamming this forum with his nonsense.
So this most important belief of your sect is not clear black & white in Quran. Thank you for admitting that.
So we need to crack the riddles & connect the dots do we?😂😂😂😂

😊 First you thought I was AMEEN for some reason and now you think I sound like LINK 😀 I wonder what you're going to come out with next.

Our belief is not in the Qur'an the way you want it. Also many important things aren't in the Qur'an which I've just proven by nailing you. This should end it.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Our belief is not in the Qur'an......

......This should end it.

😁

[iceman]

😁

Neither our belief is in the Qur'an and nor is yours. You don't have Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah or their system of Caliphate in the Qur'an nor do you have Ahle Tasheyu or their system of Imamah in the Qur'an in black and white that will knock you on the head and tell you that here it is.

I can only speak for myself. Our belief is according to the Qur'an. You will have no Islamic sect or school of thought in the Qur'an. You need to make up your mind, one minute you act and sound as QURANISTS and the next minute you can't provide a single indication from the Qur'an.

Even if it comes from Allah you don't think it's necessary that it should be in the Qur'an. You act as a bunch of immature adults trying their best just to make themselves look good.

[Asif Hussain]

This is hilarious, so iceman is saying that one of the most important aspects of the religion is not spelled out clearly in the Qur'an because its only reserved for the wise ones who are able to connect the dots?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Neither our belief is in the Qur'an and nor is yours. You don't have Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah or their system of Caliphate in the Qur'an nor do you have Ahle Tasheyu or their system of Imamah in the Qur'an in black and white that will knock you on the head and tell you that here it is.

I can only speak for myself. Our belief is according to the Qur'an. You will have no Islamic sect or school of thought in the Qur'an. You need to make up your mind, one minute you act and sound as QURANISTS and the next minute you can't provide a single indication from the Qur'an.

Even if it comes from Allah you don't think it's necessary that it should be in the Qur'an. You act as a bunch of immature adults trying their best just to make themselves look good.

Ah you admit your belief of imamate is not in the Quran.

That will do😁

[iceman]

Ah you admit your belief of imamate is not in the Quran.

That will do😁

I've said it before and I'll say it again, our belief the way you want send describe it most certainly isn't in the Qur'an. Everything that Allah has said and the Prophet s.a.w pointed out isn't in the Qur'an in black and white. Do you agree to this.

[iceman]

Verse 5:55,

"Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]"

This is more than enough for us to know that Allah has put someone third in line in authority after Himself and his Messenger s.a.w. Who were they, Muhammad s.a.w declared them and we accept them. The AHLUL BAYTH.

There are clear signs in Qur'an and Sunnah about what Allah and his Messenger s.a.w  wanted but some people from the Ummah had other ideas.

Allah is speaking to the believers that he is not just their Wali so is Muhammad s.a.w and so are the believers. So basically Allah is speaking to the believers and tells them that apart from himself and his Messenger s.a.w he is putting certain believers as Wali over the believers.

So according to this (verse 5:55) we accept and declare our faith as ALIYUN WALI  ALLAH that Ali is Wali from Allah. Our faith is not in the Qur'an but most certainly according to the Qur'an.

[iceman]

http://www.askthesheikh.com/

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Iceman you completely humiliated yourself on this thread.
Put the nail in your own coffin!

[iceman]

Iceman you completely humiliated yourself on this thread.
Put the nail in your own coffin!

Then you shouldn't have anything to worry about, should you. What are you crying about.

[iceman]

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad). As for Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib, he is the uncle of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) and Zakat is compulsory on him and he should pay it double."

I wonder what happened to execution here  😊

[Mythbuster1]

Icepops fake theory of divinity Imamate is a shambles at best he cannot even produce 1 clear verse......this is the second time icepop has abysmally failed in producing anything alhamdulillah

All talk but no substance as is the case with his sect 😂👍

[iceman]

Icepops fake theory of divinity Imamate is a shambles at best he cannot even produce 1 clear verse......this is the second time icepop has abysmally failed in producing anything alhamdulillah

All talk but no substance as is the case with his sect 😂👍

How many verses do you need before it finally hits you 😀 I've given you a verse and you just brush it aside. Here it is again just to knock you out again, was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade ? 😊 You'll always and I mean always skip it. 😊

[Mythbuster1]

How many verses do you need before it finally hits you 😀 I've given you a verse and you just brush it aside. Here it is again just to knock you out again, was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade ? 😊 You'll always and I mean always skip it. 😊

No, your the one who loves to hop skip and jump from vague verses to unauthentic proofs.

I asked for clear evidence and you keep posting verses for wives or this vague verse or some other vague verse and then you ADD your own theory to it, when we point that out you say we don’t want to understand it and it’s our fault?!?!?
Do you understand what clear means?
I don’t think you do.....
open
open and shut
out in the open
overt
palpable
patent
perceivable
plain
self-evident
transparent
unambiguous
under one's nose
understandable
unequivocal
unmistakable
visible

How hard can that be? It’s been months and yet you still haven’t provided anything clear, please do if not then your Imamate theory is a new innovation that your kind added after Allah swt completed the religion of Islam.

So Ibrahim as was promoted to an imam........(a Shiite chosen divine imam).......as if Imamate is a higher status than prophethood astaghfirullah.

When was prophet saw promoted to such a status? (From the Quran please)

Why did Ali ra bypass prophethood to jump straight onto Imamate? (Quran please)

Such an important status and a vague verse to represent it?

A great failure you should be named wasteman instead😉