Anyone want to debate?

[iceman]

No, your the one who loves to hop skip and jump from vague verses to unauthentic proofs.

I asked for clear evidence and you keep posting verses for wives or this vague verse or some other vague verse and then you ADD your own theory to it, when we point that out you say we don’t want to understand it and it’s our fault?!?!?
Do you understand what clear means?
I don’t think you do.....
open
open and shut
out in the open
overt
palpable
patent
perceivable
plain
self-evident
transparent
unambiguous
under one's nose
understandable
unequivocal
unmistakable
visible

How hard can that be? It’s been months and yet you still haven’t provided anything clear, please do if not then your Imamate theory is a new innovation that your kind added after Allah swt completed the religion of Islam.

So Ibrahim as was promoted to an imam........(a Shiite chosen divine imam).......as if Imamate is a higher status than prophethood astaghfirullah.

When was prophet saw promoted to such a status? (From the Quran please)

Why did Ali ra bypass prophethood to jump straight onto Imamate? (Quran please)

Such an important status and a vague verse to represent it?

A great failure you should be named wasteman instead😉

I have plenty from the Qur'an but nothing that suits you and your desire. But here it is again just for you and for your eyes and ears only.

وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

Was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?

This is more than enough on Imamah to knock you out and to put you to rest. But the ignorant and blind will keep coming rather than answering and addressing.

[Mythbuster1]

I have plenty from the Qur'an but nothing that suits you and your desire. But here it is again just for you and for your eyes and ears only.

وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

Was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?

This is more than enough on Imamah to knock you out and to put you to rest. But the ignorant and blind will keep coming rather than answering and addressing.

You are dumb for regurgitating the same stuff.........I counter questioned on you on the post before but obviously as can be seen you have no answer.

Was prophet saw promoted? How did Ali ra bypass prophethood and got straight A promotion to the highest status?

Again you have no clear verse on Imamate as can be seen by your desperate attempts to create an idea that there is Imamate 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Quran- no Imamate
Quran- shura is mentioned

Your having a very hard time to convince aren’t you lol, only fools can see Imamate where there is none.

Shura has knocked fake Imamate out for good for it’s mentioned in the Quran, but the blind and ignorant will keep lying to enforce a belief in an unknown idea from the mind of Ibn Saba about some fairytale divine Imamate theory as if it’s in the Quran, like you are doing twisting words and adding ideas like promotion demotion status ideas that are never mentioned.

Shura really has trampelled all over divine Imamate theory.😉👍

[iceman]

You are dumb for regurgitating the same stuff.........I counter questioned on you on the post before but obviously as can be seen you have no answer.

Was prophet saw promoted? How did Ali ra bypass prophethood and got straight A promotion to the highest status?

Again you have no clear verse on Imamate as can be seen by your desperate attempts to create an idea that there is Imamate 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Quran- no Imamate
Quran- shura is mentioned

Your having a very hard time to convince aren’t you lol, only fools can see Imamate where there is none.

Shura has knocked fake Imamate out for good for it’s mentioned in the Quran, but the blind and ignorant will keep lying to enforce a belief in an unknown idea from the mind of Ibn Saba about some fairytale divine Imamate theory as if it’s in the Quran, like you are doing twisting words and adding ideas like promotion demotion status ideas that are never mentioned.

Shura really has trampelled all over divine Imamate theory.😉👍

Again you're trying desperately to avoid a discussion. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade? Answer and address rather than running from it. Then will talk about Ali why he skipped this, that and the other.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Again you're trying desperately to avoid a discussion. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade? Answer and address rather than running from it. Then will talk about Ali why he skipped this, that and the other.

Your question makes no sense.
You’re applying man made employment jargon to Allah SWT & his appointment of Prophets???

[iceman]

Your question makes no sense.
You’re applying man made employment jargon to Allah SWT & his appointment of Prophets???

No, just proving four things here and they are,

1, There is such thing as Imamah.
2, It is from Allah and he gives it.
3, Imamah is either a stage above Messenger hood and Prophecy or a level of a similar nature and stance.
4, You don't have to be a Messenger or Prophet before you are made an Imam.

Would you lads like to discuss this or do you want to continue with your childish and immature behaviour, sarcasm and getting personal?

[iceman]

You are dumb for regurgitating the same stuff.........I counter questioned on you on the post before but obviously as can be seen you have no answer.

Was prophet saw promoted? How did Ali ra bypass prophethood and got straight A promotion to the highest status?

Again you have no clear verse on Imamate as can be seen by your desperate attempts to create an idea that there is Imamate 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Quran- no Imamate
Quran- shura is mentioned

Your having a very hard time to convince aren’t you lol, only fools can see Imamate where there is none.

Shura has knocked fake Imamate out for good for it’s mentioned in the Quran, but the blind and ignorant will keep lying to enforce a belief in an unknown idea from the mind of Ibn Saba about some fairytale divine Imamate theory as if it’s in the Quran, like you are doing twisting words and adding ideas like promotion demotion status ideas that are never mentioned.

Shura really has trampelled all over divine Imamate theory.😉👍

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.

And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)

So the above were also made Imams by Allah himself, were they Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams? Or did they also skip Messenger hood and Prophecy and made Imams only? Do ponder over this with your THEORY!

Imamah (divine guidance) has clearly been mentioned in the Qur'an and so is Shura (consultation). The only difference is that the Ummah rejected Imamah and didn't even bother with Shura 😊

There was no shura at Saqifa because that's not what the gathering and incident was all about. Abu Bakr named and appointed his successor so there was no Shura there. And a six man committee was formed by Umar to vote for the next Caliph so there was no Shura here either. 😀 So I don't know what you're banging on about! 😁

[zaid_ibn_ali]

No, just proving four things here and they are,

1, There is such thing as Imamah.
2, It is from Allah and he gives it.
3, Imamah is either a stage above Messenger hood and Prophecy or a level of a similar nature and stance.
4, You don't have to be a Messenger or Prophet before you are made an Imam.

Would you lads like to discuss this or do you want to continue with your childish and immature behaviour, sarcasm and getting personal?

The verse says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam/leader AFTER he fullfilled certain tasks.
But shia believe the Imams are born as Imams?
So this tells me the term Imam mentioned in the Quran is not to be used as the word Imam that shia use.

[iceman]

The verse says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam/leader AFTER he fullfilled certain tasks.
But shia believe the Imams are born as Imams?
So this tells me the term Imam mentioned in the Quran is not to be used as the word Imam that shia use.

"The verse says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam/leader AFTER he fullfilled certain tasks"

Absolutely. So was he promoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade?

So to start off with do we agree that there is such thing as Imamah in the Qur'an and it is by Allah and he alone does choose and make Imams as specified in the Qur'an?

Reference:

“And we made of them Imams to guide by our command for they were patient, and they were certain of our clear signs”. (32:24)

[iceman]

First we need to establish if there is such thing as Imamah and is there any sign of it in the Qur'an. Then we need to establish that if Allah has made Imams. And I believe we have established that. Now do you have to be a Messenger or Prophet before being made an Imam by Allah? I believe the following will settle it;

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.

And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)

So Allah also made them Imams whom Allah is speaking about, do you believe these individuals were Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams?

People do ponder over this. One step at a time and we will get there. Humble request, please leave the sarcasm, getting petsonal and immature behaviour out of it. Unless you want to continue to derail the discussion and divert attention.

[iceman]

Also take and make a note of this while you're at it;

يَوْمَ نَدْعُواْ كُلَّ اُنَاسٍ بإِمَامِهِمْ فَمَنْ اُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَاُوْلَئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلاَ يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلاً

“On the Day We shall call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand; then these will read their book (joyfully); and they will not be treated unjustly in the least"

Excuse me, WITH THEIR IMAM ? Why not 'with their Messenger or Prophet'? I mean the word Messenger or Prophet should have berm used but no, the word IMAM has been used. Do ponder over this as well.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

"The verse says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam/leader AFTER he fullfilled certain tasks"

Absolutely. So was he promoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade?

So to start off with do we agree that there is such thing as Imamah in the Qur'an and it is by Allah and he alone does choose and make Imams as specified in the Qur'an?

Reference:

“And we made of them Imams to guide by our command for they were patient, and they were certain of our clear signs”. (32:24)

You totally ignored the main point I made. That is Ibrahim AS was not born an Imam but was made one AFTER a certain point in his life.
Whereas your Imams are meant to be born as Imams.
Hence these are two different terminology of the word Imam being used.
That renders your strange promotion/demotion malarky null & void.
We can’t answer an invalid question.
If the station is the same or similar then why is one born with that station whereas the other had to wait & earn that station.
Clearly you are confused by trying to assert Ibrahim AS was an Imam like your belief of Imams.

[Mythbuster1]

Again you're trying desperately to avoid a discussion. Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or given a title of a similar nature and grade? Answer and address rather than running from it. Then will talk about Ali why he skipped this, that and the other.

NO He Ibrahim as wasn’t promoted, I keep repeating that do you even read posts?

So now tell us please it’s been days how prophet saw didn’t get promoted and Ali ra bypassed it?

[Mythbuster1]

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.

And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)

So the above were also made Imams by Allah himself, were they Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams? Or did they also skip Messenger hood and Prophecy and made Imams only? Do ponder over this with your THEORY!

Imamah (divine guidance) has clearly been mentioned in the Qur'an and so is Shura (consultation). The only difference is that the Ummah rejected Imamah and didn't even bother with Shura 😊

There was no shura at Saqifa because that's not what the gathering and incident was all about. Abu Bakr named and appointed his successor so there was no Shura there. And a six man committee was formed by Umar to vote for the next Caliph so there was no Shura here either. 😀 So I don't know what you're banging on about! 😁

Huh? Do you read ayahs properly?

They were LEADERS calling towards the fire, no prophets or promotions here mate, you are AGAIN adding your false thoughts and ideas into that verse, you are a joke honestly any non Muslim reading that verse will side with the sunni view.........nothing to do with divine Imamate here fella😂😂😂😂

I said you have nothing on divine Imamate and I stick by my words no need for pondering over nonsense that is clearly not mentioned.

The ummah stuck with the truth and followed the Quran and sunna whilst the sabaites and khawarij were attacking it with false ideas and concepts to corrupt the religion within and yet the majority of the ummah is on the right path adhereing to Quran and sunna and keeping alien man made theories at a distance, by using shura to choose leaders following the ayahs of Quran and the traditions of the prophet saw and not following people who have new ideas of promotion backed divine ideas imams😜

Shura was used to choose Abu Bakr ra and Umar ra and Uthman ra if the people disagreed then they wouldn’t have been leaders yet the people agreed with their leadership unless like I said you are either Shiite or khawarijite, shura really has got divine Imamate hence you still cannot answer why shura is clearly mentioned but divine Imamate isn’t, all these months and you have to EXPLAIN divine Imamate from the ayahs with your own secterian bias where there is nothing of such in clear language from the Quran like........shura, I know your head must hurt you are frustrated it’s hard to find something if it’s not there😜👍

Blind following the blind😂😂😂

[iceman]

Huh? Do you read ayahs properly?

They were LEADERS calling towards the fire, no prophets or promotions here mate, you are AGAIN adding your false thoughts and ideas into that verse, you are a joke honestly any non Muslim reading that verse will side with the sunni view.........nothing to do with divine Imamate here fella😂😂😂😂

I said you have nothing on divine Imamate and I stick by my words no need for pondering over nonsense that is clearly not mentioned.

The ummah stuck with the truth and followed the Quran and sunna whilst the sabaites and khawarij were attacking it with false ideas and concepts to corrupt the religion within and yet the majority of the ummah is on the right path adhereing to Quran and sunna and keeping alien man made theories at a distance, by using shura to choose leaders following the ayahs of Quran and the traditions of the prophet saw and not following people who have new ideas of promotion backed divine ideas imams😜

Shura was used to choose Abu Bakr ra and Umar ra and Uthman ra if the people disagreed then they wouldn’t have been leaders yet the people agreed with their leadership unless like I said you are either Shiite or khawarijite, shura really has got divine Imamate hence you still cannot answer why shura is clearly mentioned but divine Imamate isn’t, all these months and you have to EXPLAIN divine Imamate from the ayahs with your own secterian bias where there is nothing of such in clear language from the Quran like........shura, I know your head must hurt you are frustrated it’s hard to find something if it’s not there😜👍

Blind following the blind😂😂😂

LEADERS? The word 'IMAM' has been used 'AND WE MADE THEM IMAMS' so stop giving it your own meaning such as LEADERS.

Theory that 'well Abraham was a Messenger and Prophet before he was made an Imam, so therefore one should be a Messenger and Prophet first before being an Imam'.

Relating to Shia Imams that why did they by pass Messenger hood and Prophecy and went straight to Imamah.

Answer: Use your sense for a change, it's Allah's doing and will and not the Imams. So stop giving things your own flavour and taste.

Now to address the theory that is it necessary that one should be a Messenger and Prophet before being made an Imam? I don't think so because the following were also made Imams by Allah, do you think they were Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams?

"وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.

And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)

This is what I was trying to address and you keep running around and diverting attention with your rants and raves and childish behaviour.

[iceman]

It is absolutely clear by the following that Allah makes Caliphs and Imams.

"And remember when your Lord said to the angels, ‘Verily, I am going to place [for mankind] a successor (khalifah) on the earth"

"O David! Verily We have placed you as a successor (khalifah) on the earth, so judge between men with truth and justice, and follow not your desires, for they will mislead you from the path of Allah"

"And remember when the Lord of Abraham tried him with certain commands which he fulfilled. Allah said to him, ‘Verily I am going to make you a Imam for mankind.’ Abraham said, ‘And (what about) my offspring?’ Allah said, ‘My providence (does not) includes the wrongdoers"

"And We made from among them Imams giving guidance under Our command, when they were patient and believed with certainty in Our proofs and evidence"

Why has Allah mentioned this in the Qur'an when it's to do with the past and if it's got nothing to do with the future. To remind the Ummah of Muhammad s.a.w. But dude they remember and acknowledge. Oh no they didn't. They even disregarded the Prophet s.a.w by saying 'the book of Allah is sufficient for us". An absolute and clear insult to the Prophet s.a.w don't you think. I don't see anybody jumping up and down here in defence of the Prophet s.a.w 😊

[Mythbuster1]

LEADERS? The word 'IMAM' has been used 'AND WE MADE THEM IMAMS' so stop giving it your own meaning such as LEADERS.

Theory that 'well Abraham was a Messenger and Prophet before he was made an Imam, so therefore one should be a Messenger and Prophet first before being an Imam'.

Relating to Shia Imams that why did they by pass Messenger hood and Prophecy and went straight to Imamah.

Answer: Use your sense for a change, it's Allah's doing and will and not the Imams. So stop giving things your own flavour and taste.

Now to address the theory that is it necessary that one should be a Messenger and Prophet before being made an Imam? I don't think so because the following were also made Imams by Allah, do you think they were Messengers and Prophets before they were made Imams?

"وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ. وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُمْ مِنْ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ.

And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous. (Surah Qasas 28:41-42)

This is what I was trying to address and you keep running around and diverting attention with your rants and raves and childish behaviour.

Imam in Quran means LEADERS not no divine authority leaders chosen by Allah swt.

That is your problem you cannot ever as can be seen on the posts prove that imam means divine leader at all you are using an ambiguous verse to prop up an idea at best.

I see you STILL cannot provide an answer on WHY prophets had a test but the ahle baith ra didn’t need to.......come on lad what’s up? Give us an answer😜😜

And by the way thankyou that last verse you posted imams of the fire that just proves my point they are just normal leaders NOT god chosen, where o where is that divine imam in that verse? Again no clear signs or proofs, if you read the verse without the Shiite goggles on😉

You haven’t addressed the main points and yet you still cannot provide a clear verse on Imamate.

Come on wasteman your kind are watching and reading show them your intelligence😜😂😂😂

[Mythbuster1]

It is absolutely clear by the following that Allah makes Caliphs and Imams.

"And remember when your Lord said to the angels, ‘Verily, I am going to place [for mankind] a successor (khalifah) on the earth"

"O David! Verily We have placed you as a successor (khalifah) on the earth, so judge between men with truth and justice, and follow not your desires, for they will mislead you from the path of Allah"

"And remember when the Lord of Abraham tried him with certain commands which he fulfilled. Allah said to him, ‘Verily I am going to make you a Imam for mankind.’ Abraham said, ‘And (what about) my offspring?’ Allah said, ‘My providence (does not) includes the wrongdoers"

"And We made from among them Imams giving guidance under Our command, when they were patient and believed with certainty in Our proofs and evidence"

Why has Allah mentioned this in the Qur'an when it's to do with the past and if it's got nothing to do with the future. To remind the Ummah of Muhammad s.a.w. But dude they remember and acknowledge. Oh no they didn't. They even disregarded the Prophet s.a.w by saying 'the book of Allah is sufficient for us". An absolute and clear insult to the Prophet s.a.w don't you think. I don't see anybody jumping up and down here in defence of the Prophet s.a.w 😊

No we ain’t bunny rabbits jumping up and down you dimwit

A khalifa is NOT a shia divine imam, the verses you posted prove that point.

Until you can provide evidence that Imamate is a higher status you are wasting your time on posting ambiguous verses at best, you are all over the place with these verses mate you know yourself you are.

Last paragraph a sly dig at saqifa and how they were wrong........dude shura is in the Quran clear as day yet you cannot get better than shura cos you have for months of asking NOTHING clear on divine Imamate theory or concept from Quran😉

The book is SUFFICIENT hence you cannot use it to find divine Imamate 😂👍

[iceman]

Imam in Quran means LEADERS not no divine authority leaders chosen by Allah swt.

That is your problem you cannot ever as can be seen on the posts prove that imam means divine leader at all you are using an ambiguous verse to prop up an idea at best.

I see you STILL cannot provide an answer on WHY prophets had a test but the ahle baith ra didn’t need to.......come on lad what’s up? Give us an answer😜😜

And by the way thankyou that last verse you posted imams of the fire that just proves my point they are just normal leaders NOT god chosen, where o where is that divine imam in that verse? Again no clear signs or proofs, if you read the verse without the Shiite goggles on😉

You haven’t addressed the main points and yet you still cannot provide a clear verse on Imamate.

Come on wasteman your kind are watching and reading show them your intelligence😜😂😂😂

"Imam in Quran means LEADERS not no divine authority leaders chosen by Allah swt"

Some who were chosen were divine. So stop giving it your own meaning and understanding. Open up your mind and start thinking rationally.

"I see you STILL cannot provide an answer on WHY prophets had a test but the ahle baith ra didn’t need to.......come on lad what’s up? Give us an answer😜😜"

I've given it to you. You don't have to be a Messenger and Prophet first to receive the title of Imam. Already proven it. 😊 Keep talking! Some are put through a test and others are honoured with it. Any problem, then take it up with God when you see him. Don't blame us for things not going your way.

"And by the way thankyou that last verse you posted imams of the fire that just proves my point they are just normal leaders NOT god chosen, where o where is that divine imam in that verse? Again no clear signs or proofs, if you read the verse without the Shiite goggles on"

Imams not leaders. That verse proves you don't have to be a Messenger and Prophet first to be an Imam. Take off those Saqifah spectacles and you'll be able to see clearlyand more better. 😀

[Mythbuster1]

"Imam in Quran means LEADERS not no divine authority leaders chosen by Allah swt"

Some who were chosen were divine. So stop giving it your own meaning and understanding. Open up your mind and start thinking rationally.

"I see you STILL cannot provide an answer on WHY prophets had a test but the ahle baith ra didn’t need to.......come on lad what’s up? Give us an answer😜😜"

I've given it to you. You don't have to be a Messenger and Prophet first to receive the title of Imam. Already proven it. 😊 Keep talking! Some are put through a test and others are honoured with it. Any problem, then take it up with God when you see him. Don't blame us for things not going your way.

"And by the way thankyou that last verse you posted imams of the fire that just proves my point they are just normal leaders NOT god chosen, where o where is that divine imam in that verse? Again no clear signs or proofs, if you read the verse without the Shiite goggles on"

Imams not leaders. That verse proves you don't have to be a Messenger and Prophet first to be an Imam. Take off those Saqifah spectacles and you'll be able to see clearlyand more better. 😀

No there was NO divine imam and yet you haven’t any clear evidence for it apart from verses that have to be extrapolated

Don’t need to take it up with anyone apart from you, it’s your theory and has nothing to do with god at all as you have failed miserably in providing any clear evidences from the Quran.

You haven’t proved anything all you are saying is Ibrahim as was made a divine imam after being a prophet and you use an ambiguous verse from the Quran to prop up the idea, yet when I ask you how does that work when prophet saw is NEVER mentioned to be an imam after prophethood but the ahle baith ra don’t need prophethood to jump straight on to divine Imamate........you say, “ask Allah” ?!?!??!?
Come on ameen am sure you can answer better than that😜

Lol so when it suits iceman and his kind verse of Ibrahim as means He was given divine Imamate and the verse of imams of fire god doesn’t need to choose them.........so how do you know who is divine and who is not? Is it when you desire it to be?
It’s just leaders means leaders even Ibrahim as is mentioned as a leader an imam, it doesn’t mean divine god chosen higher status than prophethood leader that’s your own idea and whims adding to that.
 Goes back to my question how come prophet saw wasn’t given such an honour but his ahle baith ra did??

[iceman]

No there was NO divine imam and yet you haven’t any clear evidence for it apart from verses that have to be extrapolated

Don’t need to take it up with anyone apart from you, it’s your theory and has nothing to do with god at all as you have failed miserably in providing any clear evidences from the Quran.

You haven’t proved anything all you are saying is Ibrahim as was made a divine imam after being a prophet and you use an ambiguous verse from the Quran to prop up the idea, yet when I ask you how does that work when prophet saw is NEVER mentioned to be an imam after prophethood but the ahle baith ra don’t need prophethood to jump straight on to divine Imamate........you say, “ask Allah” ?!?!??!?
Come on ameen am sure you can answer better than that😜

Lol so when it suits iceman and his kind verse of Ibrahim as means He was given divine Imamate and the verse of imams of fire god doesn’t need to choose them.........so how do you know who is divine and who is not? Is it when you desire it to be?
It’s just leaders means leaders even Ibrahim as is mentioned as a leader an imam, it doesn’t mean divine god chosen higher status than prophethood leader that’s your own idea and whims adding to that.
 Goes back to my question how come prophet saw wasn’t given such an honour but his ahle baith ra did??

It looks like you want to remain ignorant over it. Well that's down to you. 😊