Anyone want to debate?

[Mythbuster1]

It looks like you want to remain ignorant over it. Well that's down to you. 😊

It looks clear that you cannot provide an answer and you choose to counter question my question a typical Shiite deviating tactic.......I ain’t even surprised😉👍

[iceman]

It looks clear that you cannot provide an answer and you choose to counter question my question a typical Shiite deviating tactic.......I ain’t even surprised😉👍

The question is,

'is Imamah a higher status than Messenger hood and Prophecy?'

The Shias consider Imamah to be a higher status than Messenger hood and Prophecy.

These are your questions I believe, is that correct? I believe it is.

Lets examine the situation and then answer it.

وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

Lets look at the facts, not my opinion or analysis based on my understanding bit FACTS.

1, Abraham was TRIED by his Lord. That surely would be a test or something sort of exame.

2, Abraham FULLFILLED them. In other words Abraham passed, succeeded.

3, Abraham was made an IMAM of the people. One thing we need to understand here is being an Imam or Imamah is no ordinary thing or saying that he was JUST made a LEADER and that is all. There is nothing to it. That's your analysis based on your opinion.

Abraham was TRIED by his Lord, when he succeeded he was made an IMAM of the people.

4, He was already a Messenger as well as a Prophet. These are not just titles of leadership and just as these Imamah is not just a title or word for leadership because he wouldn't be tried (put to a test) in the first place and what's the difference? Was Abraham not a leader being a Messenger and Prophet in the first place?

So we need to ask ourselves that was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?

And the obvious answer, which you're running from, is that he was either promoted or given a title of a similar grade but of a different nature and purpose. 😊

[Mythbuster1]

The question is,

'is Imamah a higher status than Messenger hood and Prophecy?'

The Shias consider Imamah to be a higher status than Messenger hood and Prophecy.

These are your questions I believe, is that correct? I believe it is.

Lets examine the situation and then answer it.

وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

Lets look at the facts, not my opinion or analysis based on my understanding bit FACTS.

1, Abraham was TRIED by his Lord. That surely would be a test or something sort of exame.

2, Abraham FULLFILLED them. In other words Abraham passed, succeeded.

3, Abraham was made an IMAM of the people. One thing we need to understand here is being an Imam or Imamah is no ordinary thing or saying that he was JUST made a LEADER and that is all. There is nothing to it. That's your analysis based on your opinion.

Abraham was TRIED by his Lord, when he succeeded he was made an IMAM of the people.

4, He was already a Messenger as well as a Prophet. These are not just titles of leadership and just as these Imamah is not just a title or word for leadership because he wouldn't be tried (put to a test) in the first place and what's the difference? Was Abraham not a leader being a Messenger and Prophet in the first place?

So we need to ask ourselves that was Abraham, promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title of a similar level and nature to what he already was?

And the obvious answer, which you're running from, is that he was either promoted or given a title of a similar grade but of a different nature and purpose. 😊

Lol is that your answer?😂😂😂😂😂

Let’s give you your answers on the 4 points shall we😉

1) Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉

2) Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention.😉

3) Is your own analysis and opinion devoid of any facts from the Quran.
Imam means leader unless you can prove from Quran otherwise, which you find it IMPOSSIBLE to do.......just read the posts.😉

4) Again a personal analysis and opinion devoid of any facts which you cannot provide.😉

You keep asking that stupid question if he was promoted or not cos that’s your own analysis and opinion of which there is no fact.

My question still stands and has NOT been answered.

Ibrahim as gets promotion
Prophet saw never gets promoted
Ahle baith ra bypass prophethood and jump straight on to a higher status.

Please do provide a clear answer for the questions asked instead of giving your own analysis and opinion.😊👍

[iceman]

Lol is that your answer?😂😂😂😂😂

Let’s give you your answers on the 4 points shall we😉

1) Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉

2) Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention.😉

3) Is your own analysis and opinion devoid of any facts from the Quran.
Imam means leader unless you can prove from Quran otherwise, which you find it IMPOSSIBLE to do.......just read the posts.😉

4) Again a personal analysis and opinion devoid of any facts which you cannot provide.😉

You keep asking that stupid question if he was promoted or not cos that’s your own analysis and opinion of which there is no fact.

My question still stands and has NOT been answered.

Ibrahim as gets promotion
Prophet saw never gets promoted
Ahle baith ra bypass prophethood and jump straight on to a higher status.

Please do provide a clear answer for the questions asked instead of giving your own analysis and opinion.😊👍

😊 Despite knowing that you'll continue to dance around it, lets move this further.

"Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉

☺ We're not talking about the last Prophet  s.a.w. One thing and step at a time. You keep jumping around and on without addressing the matter concerned and discussed. Can't provide evidence? My dear when it comes to giving an example what do you want and expect? A list, in this case of 123,999 messengers and Prophets excluding Abraham since his example has already been given?

[Mythbuster1]

😊 Despite knowing that you'll continue to dance around it, lets move this further.

"Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉

☺ We're not talking about the last Prophet  s.a.w. One thing and step at a time. You keep jumping around and on without addressing the matter concerned and discussed. Can't provide evidence? My dear when it comes to giving an example what do you want and expect? A list, in this case of 123,999 messengers and Prophets excluding Abraham since his example has already been given?

Lol it looks as if your doing the samba mate you cannot provide an answer for your theory of promotion honestly keep on that dance and avoid answering what you was asked..........come on iceman why can you not answer? I thought shiites were taught by divine imams? Yet in here you are finding it hard to explain your man made theory........keep up the samba😉👍

This time iceman cannot provide a CLEAR answer for his promotion theory just as he can’t provide a CLEAR verse on Imamate without adding his commentary on it, and if that theory doesn’t sound or seem right to a normal layman then that means that person is IGNORANT..........that’s icepop for you😂😂😂😂👍👍👍

[Mythbuster1]

Icepop loves to jump in threads like a troll and calls people out and when confronted he calls you ignorant for not understanding him on a man made theory😂😂😂👍👍👍👍

Icepop has bitten more than he can chew........come on mate you called me out and called me quranist only cos I wanted proof from the Quran and yet here you are about 5 pages later and many posts finding it difficult to stand up and affirm that divine Imamate is in the Quran

EPIC FAIL👍

[iceman]

Lol is that your answer?😂😂😂😂😂

Let’s give you your answers on the 4 points shall we😉

1) Ibrahim as was TRIED by His lord yet you can’t provide evidence of the last prophet saw being TRIED or any other major prophets being TRIED to at least make a case......you have made up theories😉

2) Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention.😉

3) Is your own analysis and opinion devoid of any facts from the Quran.
Imam means leader unless you can prove from Quran otherwise, which you find it IMPOSSIBLE to do.......just read the posts.😉

4) Again a personal analysis and opinion devoid of any facts which you cannot provide.😉

You keep asking that stupid question if he was promoted or not cos that’s your own analysis and opinion of which there is no fact.

My question still stands and has NOT been answered.

Ibrahim as gets promotion
Prophet saw never gets promoted
Ahle baith ra bypass prophethood and jump straight on to a higher status.

Please do provide a clear answer for the questions asked instead of giving your own analysis and opinion.😊👍

"Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention"

Again what would you like, an example or a long and lengthy list before it makes any sense to you, before it actually hits you 😊 Do you believe that there were 124,000 Messengers and Prophets, I'm sure you do. Allah has mentioned and given an example at the same time. Now if that's not good enough for you or you aren't satisfied then by all means take it up with God when you see him 😊 For the wise and intelligent, example and sign is more than enough. But for the dumb and dull minded, well you think and speak for yourself. I'll leave that to you 😊

[Mythbuster1]

"Only Ibrahim as was tested and others never got a mention? Such a high status that only Ibrahim as is an example and the rest don’t get a mention"

Again what would you like, an example or a long and lengthy list before it makes any sense to you, before it actually hits you 😊 Do you believe that there were 124,000 Messengers and Prophets, I'm sure you do. Allah has mentioned and given an example at the same time. Now if that's not good enough for you or you aren't satisfied then by all means take it up with God when you see him 😊 For the wise and intelligent, example and sign is more than enough. But for the dumb and dull minded, well you think and speak for yourself. I'll leave that to you 😊

No I would like a simple CLEAR example which you cannot provide any especially from the Quran you cannot even provide CLEAR proof from sunnah either on promotion theory, all you have is your own desired opinion as can be seen😉

Your last post says you haven’t a CLEAR answer on why Ibrahim as was promoted.......oh my!

Either you don’t understand questions or you are simply dancing around the question and answering by counter questioning, any which way and you still haven’t an answer, your easy just imagine the layman Shiite out there I feel sorry for them no wonder the ones I know,they won’t talk deep about this fake man made theory of divine Imamate if their great intelligent one like iceman cannot answer.......alhamdulillah👍

This is how easy it is for a layman Sunni, on how HARD it is for a Shiite to prove Imamate😂😂😂😂😂👍👍

No Imamate
No promotion
Shura trumps both alhamdulillah😊👍

[iceman]

No I would like a simple CLEAR example which you cannot provide any especially from the Quran you cannot even provide CLEAR proof from sunnah either on promotion theory, all you have is your own desired opinion as can be seen😉

Your last post says you haven’t a CLEAR answer on why Ibrahim as was promoted.......oh my!

Either you don’t understand questions or you are simply dancing around the question and answering by counter questioning, any which way and you still haven’t an answer, your easy just imagine the layman Shiite out there I feel sorry for them no wonder the ones I know,they won’t talk deep about this fake man made theory of divine Imamate if their great intelligent one like iceman cannot answer.......alhamdulillah👍

This is how easy it is for a layman Sunni, on how HARD it is for a Shiite to prove Imamate😂😂😂😂😂👍👍

No Imamate
No promotion
Shura trumps both alhamdulillah😊👍

Why did Allah mention the situation of Abraham by giving this example? Surely there is a reason and purpose. You don't believe Abraham was promoted? 😊

[iceman]

And what do you say about Messenger hood and Prophecy,

1, The same rank but two different names.
2, Two different ranks but of the same nature and level.
3, Two separate ranks and of a different level, one being above and higher than the other.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

@iceman:

Can a person who isn’t born as an Imam be promoted to being an Imam?

My understanding is that the usage of the term ‘Imam’ in the verse regarding Ibrahim AS is not the same as the shia usage for that word. This due to shia Imams being born as Imams whereas in the verse it says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam later in life.

For me this term Imam in the verse is ‘leader’, there are various leadership positions & qualities. Its not the shia belief of Imamate for me.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Iceman?

[iceman]

@iceman:

Can a person who isn’t born as an Imam be promoted to being an Imam?

My understanding is that the usage of the term ‘Imam’ in the verse regarding Ibrahim AS is not the same as the shia usage for that word. This due to shia Imams being born as Imams whereas in the verse it says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam later in life.

For me this term Imam in the verse is ‘leader’, there are various leadership positions & qualities. Its not the shia belief of Imamate for me.

"Can a person who isn’t born as an Imam be promoted to being an Imam?"

My answer would be YES. The example would be of Abraham. He wasn't born as an Imam but was made an Imam, yes after he was tried of course.

"My understanding is that the usage of the term ‘Imam’ in the verse regarding Ibrahim AS is not the same as the shia usage for that word"

You have a right to your understanding. But you also need to recognise the rights of others.

"This due to shia Imams being born as Imams whereas in the verse it says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam later in life"

Of course, what is difficult for our Lord. Were all Messengers equal? No. They were all Messengers but some were raised above others. And some were not only Messengers but were also Prophets as well as Messengers.

The Ahle Sunah vary on the status of Muhammad s.a.w. Some believe he was a Messenger since birth. In other words he was born as a Messenger. Others believe he became a Messenger when he declared his Messenger status. Some believe he was a Messenger even before birth.

"For me this term Imam in the verse is ‘leader’ "

Ok, what about Messenger hood and Prophecy, is that not leadership as well? If 'Imam' means 'leader' then was Abraham not a leader of the people when he was a Messenger and Prophet?

"there are various leadership positions & qualities."

Would you elaborate on that. If you don't mind explaining yourself.

"Its not the shia belief of Imamate for me"

That's fine. You have a right to your opinion. But do try to respect opinion of others. One thing should be established by now that there is such thing as Imamah and it does exist in the Qur'an.

[Mythbuster1]

Why did Allah mention the situation of Abraham by giving this example? Surely there is a reason and purpose. You don't believe Abraham was promoted? 😊

NO ........(move on)!!

[Mythbuster1]

And what do you say about Messenger hood and Prophecy,

1, The same rank but two different names.
2, Two different ranks but of the same nature and level.
3, Two separate ranks and of a different level, one being above and higher than the other.

Forget the 2 titles the most important for you and the one I am arguing against is (divine) leadership for which you are STRUGGLING to answer, as can be seen again and again, I mean you lot aren’t 10-15% of the Muslim population with ideas like that.....are you?😉

[zaid_ibn_ali]

"Can a person who isn’t born as an Imam be promoted to being an Imam?"

My answer would be YES. The example would be of Abraham. He wasn't born as an Imam but was made an Imam, yes after he was tried of course.

"My understanding is that the usage of the term ‘Imam’ in the verse regarding Ibrahim AS is not the same as the shia usage for that word"

You have a right to your understanding. But you also need to recognise the rights of others.

"This due to shia Imams being born as Imams whereas in the verse it says Ibrahim AS was made an Imam later in life"

Of course, what is difficult for our Lord. Were all Messengers equal? No. They were all Messengers but some were raised above others. And some were not only Messengers but were also Prophets as well as Messengers.

The Ahle Sunah vary on the status of Muhammad s.a.w. Some believe he was a Messenger since birth. In other words he was born as a Messenger. Others believe he became a Messenger when he declared his Messenger status. Some believe he was a Messenger even before birth.

"For me this term Imam in the verse is ‘leader’ "

Ok, what about Messenger hood and Prophecy, is that not leadership as well? If 'Imam' means 'leader' then was Abraham not a leader of the people when he was a Messenger and Prophet?

"there are various leadership positions & qualities."

Would you elaborate on that. If you don't mind explaining yourself.

"Its not the shia belief of Imamate for me"

That's fine. You have a right to your opinion. But do try to respect opinion of others. One thing should be established by now that there is such thing as Imamah and it does exist in the Qur'an.

My understanding is that it refers to leadership & yes Prophets & messengers were leaders but their leadership can vary. Not all led the same nations or same people. Clearly Ibrahim AS was given the special leadership of the children of Israel.
Its a reminder of this special position he was granted after he earned it.

If he was already a Prophet & messenger & thus already a leader (which you admit), then it makes no sense to say he was promoted to an Imam.

[iceman]

My understanding is that it refers to leadership & yes Prophets & messengers were leaders but their leadership can vary. Not all led the same nations or same people. Clearly Ibrahim AS was given the special leadership of the children of Israel.
Its a reminder of this special position he was granted after he earned it.

If he was already a Prophet & messenger & thus already a leader (which you admit), then it makes no sense to say he was promoted to an Imam.

"My understanding is that it refers to leadership & yes Prophets & messengers were leaders but their leadership can vary"

This is what I also believe in that leadership does vary. And so do the titles be it Messenger hood, Prophecy or Imamah and their nature.

"Clearly Ibrahim AS was given the special leadership of the children of Israel"

Absolutely, this proves that apart from Messenger hood and Prophecy we do have a position which you have called SPECIAL LEADERSHIP.

"Its a reminder of this special position he was granted after he earned it"

Reminder for what and regarding whom? Surely there must be a reason and purpose for such a reminder. Otherwise why would Allah mention it?

"If he was already a Prophet & messenger & thus already a leader (which you admit), then it makes no sense to say he was promoted to an Imam"

Absolutely, we have established that this is a special position and it is separate from Messenger hood and Prophecy. We have to accept one of two based on logic that either he was promoted or given a title of a similar level and grade but of a different nature.

Thanks for a healthy and constructive discussion. That's all I was asking for. I hope the others can and will learn from you.

[iceman]

Forget the 2 titles the most important for you and the one I am arguing against is (divine) leadership for which you are STRUGGLING to answer, as can be seen again and again, I mean you lot aren’t 10-15% of the Muslim population with ideas like that.....are you?😉

Divine leadership, that would be Imamah. An example from the Qur'an, yes of course. Abraham was made an Imam of the people by being granted Imamah. You still want to dance around it 😊

Read the Qur'an and look at the history of mankind. Always only the minority believed. And the majority always went astray 😊

[iceman]

NO ........(move on)!!

We have. The only problem is you haven’t. And you need to. 😊 Be and let be. Live and let live. Leave yourself and us alone.  Give it a test and get on with it. 😊

[zaid_ibn_ali]

"My understanding is that it refers to leadership & yes Prophets & messengers were leaders but their leadership can vary"

This is what I also believe in that leadership does vary. And so do the titles be it Messenger hood, Prophecy or Imamah and their nature.

"Clearly Ibrahim AS was given the special leadership of the children of Israel"

Absolutely, this proves that apart from Messenger hood and Prophecy we do have a position which you have called SPECIAL LEADERSHIP.

"Its a reminder of this special position he was granted after he earned it"

Reminder for what and regarding whom? Surely there must be a reason and purpose for such a reminder. Otherwise why would Allah mention it?

"If he was already a Prophet & messenger & thus already a leader (which you admit), then it makes no sense to say he was promoted to an Imam"

Absolutely, we have established that this is a special position and it is separate from Messenger hood and Prophecy. We have to accept one of two based on logic that either he was promoted or given a title of a similar level and grade but of a different nature.

Thanks for a healthy and constructive discussion. That's all I was asking for. I hope the others can and will learn from you.

But to me the station you speak of doesn’t seem valid to me. You say proof that a prophet is promoted to Imamate by being given a special leadership position. That is they ACTIVELY LEAD a nation. But your Imams 4-12 never lead no people or nation.

Your premise does not stand ground in my opinion.