Ashari Shaykh educates the Salafis on giving Allah direction

[whoaretheshia]

[Hadrami]

You are trying too hard to deflect from the topic of this site which is sunni shia polemic. I bet that sunni syaikh also believes people with your belief is as much if not more deviant than salafi

[Hani]

I'm a mixture of Mu`tazillah and Falasifah in `Aqidah but I do agree on a lot of points with Ahlul-Hadith. These are always fun debates. Enjoy

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

For the inquisitive readers, I recommend them these websites.

For members who have advance knowledge in regards to this topic.
http://www.abovethethrone.com/arsh/

For members who are in beginning stage:

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=66&lang=en

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=67&lang=en

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=94&lang=en

[MuslimAnswers]

You are trying too hard to deflect from the topic of this site which is sunni shia polemic. I bet that sunni syaikh also believes people with your belief is as much if not more deviant than salafi

This is what I am thinking also. Shaykh Abdur Rahman Sondalaani is available on public media; one could present to him the full set of orthodox Twelver views and see how he responds, or if he is unable to do so one can reach his students and/or colleagues.

From my experience, the Ash'ari Shuyookh do respond to the Salafis most since they are the biggest influence in many regions, as are the Secularists, but when the topic of Twelvers does come up, they will pull back no punches if given their unadulterated views and put in a position to respond.

[Hadrami]

This is what I am thinking also. Shaykh Abdur Rahman Sondalaani is available on public media; one could present to him the full set of orthodox Twelver views and see how he responds, or if he is unable to do so one can reach his students and/or colleagues.

From my experience, the Ash'ari Shuyookh do respond to the Salafis most since they are the biggest influence in many regions, as are the Secularists, but when the topic of Twelvers does come up, they will pull back no punches if given their unadulterated views and put in a position to respond.

yeah i know that, the most feared antishia movement in largest muslim country in the world, Indonesia, is an ashari syaikh. Although he is against salafi, he praise their work exposing shia. He hates shia more than salafi, because he said the worst of salafi will never make takfir of sahaba & ummulmuminin. Also the neighbouring country, Malaysia, outlaw shia centres & activities and that is also a majority shafii ashari country.

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2017/10/02/igp-confirms-arrest-of-iraqi-nationals-in-shia-ceremony/

[Hani]

In al-Kafi there is a chapter with multiple narrations severely warning the Shia from entering these kinds of debates which relate to God's nature.

[whoaretheshia]

I'm a mixture of Mu`tazillah and Falasifah in `Aqidah but I do agree on a lot of points with Ahlul-Hadith. These are always fun debates. Enjoy

You know Hani, and let me go on record for saying this, while i fundamentally disagree with your own analogy in how you discern what to accept in religion and how to interpret events, often going against the majority view, i have got to say at least you have not fallen into the trap of the Salafi-Atharis, and your independence and intelligence has led you to rejecting a number of beliefs they personally hold. This is not absolute praised but restricted praise. To me, while i sincerely feel you have erred enormously and sometimes bordered on arrogance that has led you astray in some views, you have been true to yourself, objective by your own methodology, and for that i am going to have to give you credit in a restricted context.

I would like you to elaborate on your Aqeedah further as to what you disagree on with the Salafi-Atharis. Only if you want to, because i rarely meet people do have their own Aqeedah.

[whoaretheshia]

In al-Kafi there is a chapter with multiple narrations severely warning the Shia from entering these kinds of debates which relate to God's nature.

Brother Hani, this subject is my specialty. Not only have i read the bulk of our traditions, i have read commentary after commentary of our scholars and know full well what our Imams have permitted. What is forbidden by our Imams is discussing the Dhat (essence) of Allah. However, establishing the correct belief and opinion is not only permissible, it is compulsory. 

So while we can debate and refute the Salafis in their belief about literal descent, position, constituent parts, when it comes to then trying to understand what Allah actually is, we ought to know he is above all comprehension and that is far beyond our limits and entering into discussions about what his actual essence is, rather than refuting deviant beliefs about what he is not, is forbidden.

[whoaretheshia]

You are trying too hard to deflect from the topic of this site which is sunni shia polemic. I bet that sunni syaikh also believes people with your belief is as much if not more deviant than salafi

There is no doubt he believes we are deviant. However, this is a forum of Shia and Sunni discussion and we can both put forth our claims and refutations.

By the way, whatever he may deem us as deviants in, we are closer to him in our understanding of the most fundamental concept of Islam (Tawheed) than the Salafis.

While you are content at attacking Shias, you are more than happy uniting with people who have the opposite understanding of none other than Allah. Put Ali and Hasan and Hussain aside, there is nothing more important than understanding the beliefs pertaining to Allah.

[whoaretheshia]

For the inquisitive readers, I recommend them these websites.

For members who have advance knowledge in regards to this topic.
http://www.abovethethrone.com/arsh/

For members who are in beginning stage:

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=66&lang=en

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=67&lang=en

http://as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=94&lang=en

With due respect, the Salafi responses are very weak. The vast majority of the Ahlus-Sunnah follow the Ashariyya and Maturidiyya creeds. I am really stretched for time, and i will respond to this and your other posts.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

With due respect, the Salafi responses are very weak. The vast majority of the Ahlus-Sunnah follow the Ashariyya and Maturidiyya creeds. I am really stretched for time, and i will respond to this and your other posts.

Infact, I find you to be unqualified and non-credible to judge the Salafi view. For me the Salafi responses are more closer to Quran and Sunnah. And like a robot you keep repeating he majority card without daring to refute my response to this, it seems you know that your arguments are weak, but you still keep pushing them, since you have no other alternative.

Anyways, I would like to ask you again, which you skipped last time, the very important question which exposes the dangerous beliefs you people posses.

Where is Allah as per your belief? Is he inside the creation or outside the creation?  Or is He everywhere or somewhere or nowhere, as per your belief?

When you start answering these questions you will realize, that in what sort of heresy you have fallen by rejecting the clear verses of Quran and ahadeeth of Prophet(saws). When you bring up this issue, it reminds me of a beautiful quote from brother, Ali al-Boriqee, a friend of mine, Who states:  "I have debated with the Ash'aris and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist".

[whoaretheshia]

Brother Noor, i have debated many Salafi brothers on this subject. Not only have i read your books in detail, i have responded thoroughly to the very same points you are raising which they raised. If you give me time, i will rebut your points quite thoroughly. To begin with , you weren't even willing to get into this debate. We can debate Thaqalayn, Nabuwah, Imamah, Fiqh, but nothing, and i say this solemnly comes close to the debate concerning Tawheed and the divine attributes.

This is my favourite area of debate, so don't think i am unwilling to respond.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Brother Noor, i have debated many Salafi brothers on this subject. Not only have i read your books in detail, i have responded thoroughly to the very same points you are raising which they raised. If you give me time, i will rebut your points quite thoroughly. To begin with , you weren't even willing to get into this debate. We can debate Thaqalayn, Nabuwah, Imamah, Fiqh, but nothing, and i say this solemnly comes close to the debate concerning Tawheed and the divine attributes.

This is my favourite area of debate, so don't think i am unwilling to respond.

SubhanAllah! I guess this is the third time you brag like a kid, that you debated salafees, you read their books, etc, but you chose to dodge my question. And it seems you haven't read your own books, because the question wasn't regarding salafi belief but rather your belief. So you bragging that you read salafi book makes no sense. I asked a simple question answer it in a straight forward manner, without this irrelevant crappy waste of time.

[MuslimK]

Interesting points by both sides.

[Hadrami]

There is no doubt he believes we are deviant. However, this is a forum of Shia and Sunni discussion and we can both put forth our claims and refutations.

By the way, whatever he may deem us as deviants in, we are closer to him in our understanding of the most fundamental concept of Islam (Tawheed) than the Salafis.

While you are content at attacking Shias, you are more than happy uniting with people who have the opposite understanding of none other than Allah. Put Ali and Hasan and Hussain aside, there is nothing more important than understanding the beliefs pertaining to Allah.

Making takfir of sahaba whom Allah praised many times, slandering Rasulullah shallallahu alayhi wasallam wives whom Allah Himself declare innocent, belief in corruption of al-Qur'an or imam have higher stations than Prophets or many of your pioneer were mujassima etc, put all those shia dark side minus taqiyya aside, shirk is the worst of sin and I know how godlike status shia see their imam are. Whatever differences i have with salafi, its so insignificance if i compare it with shia.

PS: I dont think a salafi laymen or scholars will believe that Allah enters a house and put His Hand on husayn's head. Try use methapor excuse on that 😁

[whoaretheshia]

Infact, I find you to be unqualified and non-credible to judge the Salafi view. For me the Salafi responses are more closer to Quran and Sunnah. And like a robot you keep repeating he majority card without daring to refute my response to this, it seems you know that your arguments are weak, but you still keep pushing them, since you have no other alternative.

Anyways, I would like to ask you again, which you skipped last time, the very important question which exposes the dangerous beliefs you people posses.

Where is Allah as per your belief? Is he inside the creation or outside the creation?  Or is He everywhere or somewhere or nowhere, as per your belief?

When you start answering these questions you will realize, that in what sort of heresy you have fallen by rejecting the clear verses of Quran and ahadeeth of Prophet(saws). When you bring up this issue, it reminds me of a beautiful quote from brother, Ali al-Boriqee, a friend of mine, Who states:  "I have debated with the Ash'aris and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist".

Brother, if you know me and were present in debates i have had, you would understand i have never run from a debate on this issue, and in fact, in the majority of my debates i have actually not had key points replied to.  The reality is, you can not call the Shia, the Ashariyya, and the Maturidiyyah as 'deviants' whereas our understanding of Allah is the majority understanding of this Ummah, and not only that, the understanding of Deists, Jews, Christians, and an almost universal recognition of what Allah is not.

You asked, if i do not believe Allah has a position and place, then where is he?

Answer: The question of 'where' does not apply to Allah, and we must refrain from trying to understand him by variables which we understand his creation. He is neither 'somewhere' nor is he 'everywhere'.

How do we know?:

1. Allah was the first before anything else. This means there was no space, no matter, no empty air, but absolutely nothing.
2. Space , direction and relativity are creations of Allah.
3. Allah is existed pre-eternity without having nay direction.
4. Allah also exists, after creating these variables without also having any direction or being limited by variables and creations he himself created.

Rather than not believing Allah exists, the Shia, and to an extent (though they fall in error too), the Ashariyya and the Maturidiyya are upon pure Tawheed with regards to the divine attributes of Allah , the Almighty.

And you know why i could never be a Sunni? While there is no doubt the Salafi-Atharis are wrong in their understanding of Allah, they are actually right in staying true to their original texts, and the Ashari and Maturidi scholars recognising the enormous problems that can put you in have sought to interpret them as they wished. The Quran is far too vague to accept Salafi Aqeedah, but if i accepted Bukhari, Muslim and the other books i would have no choice but to accept that Allah truly is 'in the Sky', that he does have 'two feet' and feet can never be interpreted allegorically in any fair manner.

So you are correct so far as your own books affirm the Salafi-Aqeedah and your main scholars of the Salaf era have done likewise, and the  Ashariyya and Maturidiyya are correct in that if you affirmed such a thing it would be contrary to Tawheed.

It is an enormous problem i would say for the Ahlus-Sunnah to deal with. On one hand, you have the majority of Sunni scholars going agains the Salafi-Atharis and the real meanings of their traditions, and on the other hand, you have Salafi-Atharis holding onto clearly faulty beliefs about Allah (swt).

Throw Imamah into the water , this is far more important in my eyes. You can't even get to Imamah without affirming proper Tawheed. Imamah is valueless without having the proper understanding of Allah (swt).

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

The reality is, you can not call the Shia, the Ashariyya, and the Maturidiyyah as 'deviants' whereas our understanding of Allah is the majority understanding of this Ummah, and not only that, the understanding of Deists, Jews, Christians, and an almost universal recognition of what Allah is not.

Our understanding of Allah is based on Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet(saws). And I believe this to be a criteria to judge who is on Haqq(truth) and who is on falsehood(baatil). Majority card does works here, because as explained to you before, Prophet(saws) described that out of 73 sects of Ummah, 72 will enter hell. And you don't seem to have any academic answer for this, but still you keep repeating this majority argument, which displays the weakness in your response.

You asked, if i do not believe Allah has a position and place, then where is he?

Answer: The question of 'where' does not apply to Allah, and we must refrain from trying to understand him by variables which we understand his creation.

Actually must refrain from using Kalaam in regards to understanding Allah, instead understand him as He(swt) himself mentioned about Him or as mentioned by his Prophet(saws). Because as explained to you before, we have limited knowledge about Allah as well as the universe, also our minds are not developed to comprehend Allah.

Now as for your claim that we must refrain from asking the question where is Allah and that this question doesn't apply to Allah, then in this case too, My criteria as a Muslim is to make Prophet Muhammad(saws) as the Judge. As the Quran says if you are in dispute refer back to Allah and Prophet, (Quran 4:59).

When we refer back to Prophet(saw), we find that Prophet Muhammad(saws) himself asked this question, and he made it a criteria to judge if a person is a believer.

He(Prophet(SAWS)) said to her: Where is Allah? She said: fi as-samaa. He said: Who am I? She said: Thou art the Messenger of Allah. He said: Grant her freedom, she is a believing woman. [Sahih Muslim Book 6, Hadith 1227]

He is neither 'somewhere' nor is he 'everywhere'.

So Allah is neither somewhere nor everywhere. Neither inside the creation nor outside of creation.

Good, so I can repeat the same statement which my friend Ali Boriqee stated.

"I have debated with the Shias and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist".

How do we know?:

1. Allah was the first before anything else. This means there was no space, no matter, no empty air, but absolutely nothing.

So where did Allah create these things inside himself or outside him?

4. Allah also exists, after creating these variables without also having any direction or being limited by variables and creations he himself created.

There can only be two conclusions of this claim, either Allah created a thing inside of himself or he created things outside of himself. And either way your argument gets refuted.

Rather than not believing Allah exists, the Shia, and to an extent (though they fall in error too), the Ashariyya and the Maturidiyya are upon pure Tawheed with regards to the divine attributes of Allah , the Almighty.

As I told you, the problem with you is that you have opted to use Kalaam in order to understand about Allah(swt), instead of understanding Allah as He himself mentioned or as mentioned by Prophet(saws). Even though we all believe that human beings cannot comprehend Allah(swt). Hence, due to following this erroneous methodology you ended up negating the existence of Allah. (Na'uzbillahi min zalik).

You say: Allah is neither somewhere, nor everywhere.
You say: Allah is neither in his creation nor outside of it.

This implies that Allah doesn't exist as per your belief, even though you claim to believe in Allah, but your beliefs negate the existence of Allah(swt), because for you Allah is neither inside his creation nor outside of it, nor everywhere nor somewhere. Hence, your claim that by delving into kalaam you are upon pure Tawheed is no less than a joke. If atheists come to know about your belief, they would celebrate of finding people who prove their claims to be true.

And you know why i could never be a Sunni? While there is no doubt the Salafi-Atharis are wrong in their understanding of Allah, they are actually right in staying true to their original texts, and the Ashari and Maturidi scholars recognising the enormous problems that can put you in have sought to interpret them as they wished. The Quran is far too vague to accept Salafi Aqeedah, but if i accepted Bukhari, Muslim and the other books i would have no choice but to accept that Allah truly is 'in the Sky', that he does have 'two feet' and feet can never be interpreted allegorically in any fair manner.

So you are correct so far as your own books affirm the Salafi-Aqeedah and your main scholars of the Salaf era have done likewise, and the  Ashariyya and Maturidiyya are correct in that if you affirmed such a thing it would be contrary to Tawheed.

Alhamulillah! The Salafees are proud of adhering to the teachings of Quran and Sunnah on their apparent and not delving into Kalaam and corrupting their beliefs. Because the Prophet(Saws) have also informed us if the saved sect out of 73 sects of Muslim Ummah, he(saws) said that the saved sect is the one which is upon the way of Prophet(saws) and his Sahaba. This hadeeth is present in both Sunni and Shia books. As for your rejection of Salafi stance based on Kalaam, then basing beliefs using Kalaam is not something which a Muslim should take pride in.

وبهذا الاسناد، عن أبي بصير، قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يهلك أصحاب الكلام، وينجو المسلمون إن المسلمين هم النجباء
And with this isnad, from Abi Baseer, said: Said Abu Abdullah (as): "People of kalaam would perish, and the obedient/submitters(muslims) would be safe, indeed the obedient (muslims) they are of high character."  [al-Tawheed]