TwelverShia.net Forum

Off Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Adil on October 04, 2019, 07:06:42 AM

Title: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on October 04, 2019, 07:06:42 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/iuKTEGjKgS/teenage_iraq_brides

Documentary will be shown tomorrow I think, however the article above describes it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00098jb - part 1
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00098ff - part 2

Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on October 04, 2019, 07:15:33 AM
https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064148-upcoming-bbc-documentary-undercover-with-the-clerics/

The shiachat reaction. These shia are strange. That starlight woman has no shame whatsoever, still defending mutah. When someone wants a 3 hour marriage with her or one of her beloved female relatives, not sure whether she'd jump into her lovely mutah then.

Some of them just attack the BBC. Other talk about the need to confront abusive clerics and such...even though these clerics are literally facilitating mutah which these shiachat people defend. Others just bringing up ISIS as if ISIS is the cause of shia men jumping at the chance to commit mutah.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on October 07, 2019, 05:37:06 PM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Why are ShiaChat-ers upset?  Isn't mu'tah an act of Sunnah, according to them?  Then why the embarrassment and discomfort over BBC publicizing "an act of Sunnah"? 

I would love for the BBC to make a documentary on any actual act of Sunnah.  After all, any publicity is good publicity!
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Khaled on October 07, 2019, 07:22:36 PM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Why are ShiaChat-ers upset?  Isn't mu'tah an act of Sunnah, according to them?  Then why the embarrassment and discomfort over BBC publicizing "an act of Sunnah"? 

I would love for the BBC to make a documentary on any actual act of Sunnah.  After all, any publicity is good publicity!

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

I wonder if Ameen or whatever his name would still argue that Mut'ah isn't considered taboo in the Shia community?
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on October 07, 2019, 09:25:04 PM
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

I wonder if Ameen or whatever his name would still argue that Mut'ah isn't considered taboo in the Shia community?

I would commend him to stand by that which his madhhab considers to be an "act of Sunnah".  However, I would heavily criticize him - basically mock him - for subjecting women to such a deplorable act.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on October 08, 2019, 10:52:09 PM
Did anyone end up watching it then?

Not really my cup of tea so I just read the article. Rather not see Muslim girls getting abused. I've seen some of the shia responses on twitter though and they're calling it islamaphobic. Imagine the amount of denial that they have go through to believe this. Mutah may be marriage for them but for everyone else it literally matches prostitution.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: MuslimK on October 09, 2019, 01:18:30 PM
The Sunni Defense will live stream in the next four hours to react to the documentary. Stay tuned!

REACTING to BBC Mut'ah Documentary "Undercover with the Clerics - Iraq's Secret Sex Trade"



Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 11, 2019, 12:32:50 AM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Why are ShiaChat-ers upset?  Isn't mu'tah an act of Sunnah, according to them?  Then why the embarrassment and discomfort over BBC publicizing "an act of Sunnah"? 

I would love for the BBC to make a documentary on any actual act of Sunnah.  After all, any publicity is good publicity!

Is this true,

'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

Would you also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 11, 2019, 03:47:25 PM
'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Marriage, with the intention to divorce or with pre-agreed expiration date, is haraam and misyar or nikah kitaba has no expiration date.

Quote
Would you also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL 😊

I would love for BBC to do a documentary on misyar marriage.  In today's day-and-age, unlike mut'ah which violates Islamic codes of chastity and a cause of embarrassment to nearly all Shias, misyar can be promoted to help young people commit to marriage while foregoing some of their rights and/or responsibilities temporarily until they are ready to move in and start their own life together.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 11, 2019, 07:33:20 PM
"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Marriage, with the intention to divorce or with pre-agreed expiration date, is haraam and misyar or nikah kitaba has no expiration date.

I would love for BBC to do a documentary on misyar marriage.  In today's day-and-age, unlike mut'ah which violates Islamic codes of chastity and a cause of embarrassment to nearly all Shias, misyar can be promoted to help young people commit to marriage while foregoing some of their rights and/or responsibilities temporarily until they are ready to move in and start their own life together.

Ok. Lets see if we can get upto a decent discussion.

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

"Marriage, with the intention to divorce or with pre-agreed expiration date, is haraam"

Ok. According to your belief and faith based on the school of thought that you follow. Point accepted.

"and misyar or nikah kitaba has no expiration date"

Ok, so what's the difference between the two then. I mean you have nikah, what was the purpose and point for misyar marriage. And is there any reference from Quran or authentic hadiths regarding it. Or did the Mullahs and Muftis just come up with it. If they did then why. What's the reason and purpose for it.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 11, 2019, 08:22:34 PM
For those who are Urdu speaking.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DJFyqy6M0Ys4&ved=2ahUKEwi229-O1OLlAhVUSxUIHTF1BaIQt9IBMBN6BAgOEC4&usg=AOvVaw3QvmqzZndNrF2yZs8OT9eL
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 11, 2019, 11:41:04 PM
Ok. Lets see if we can get upto a decent discussion.

Yeah, lets see!


Quote
Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

I am not worried about the parallels.  What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date.  In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.


Quote
Ok. According to your belief and faith based on the school of thought that you follow. Point accepted.

No, this is according to the Prophetic Sunnah.


Quote
Ok, so what's the difference between the two then. I mean you have nikah, what was the purpose and point for misyar marriage.

Nikah or marriage, according to Islam, is transfer of responsibility.  It is when a man takes responsibility of a woman and in that sense, a man is expected to be ready (for this responsibility).  In certain cases, like when someone is a student, he may not be able to afford to take on that responsibility (not just financially but also time-wise).  So the option is there for him to get the nikah done, with stipulated conditions, without having to take on the full responsibility right away.  The wife chooses to forego some of her rights over her husband temporarily until they are ready to start life together.

In fact, I read that the bride and/or the groom can stipulate if there should be no intimacy until they are ready to live together.  So there is another difference; it is not lust-driven.


Quote
And is there any reference from Quran or authentic hadiths regarding it. Or did the Mullahs and Muftis just come up with it. If they did then why. What's the reason and purpose for it.

Absolutely!  Everything with Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah has precedence in Qur'an and/or Prophetic Sunnah.

The marriage of the Holy Prophet (saw) to Aisha (ra) is one such example.  He (saw) married her when she was 6 but did not take her to his house and consummate the marriage until she was 9.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 12, 2019, 12:43:35 AM
Yeah, lets see!


I am not worried about the parallels.  What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date.  In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.


No, this is according to the Prophetic Sunnah.


Nikah or marriage, according to Islam, is transfer of responsibility.  It is when a man takes responsibility of a woman and in that sense, a man is expected to be ready (for this responsibility).  In certain cases, like when someone is a student, he may not be able to afford to take on that responsibility (not just financially but also time-wise).  So the option is there for him to get the nikah done, with stipulated conditions, without having to take on the full responsibility right away.  The wife chooses to forego some of her rights over her husband temporarily until they are ready to start life together.

In fact, I read that the bride and/or the groom can stipulate if there should be no intimacy until they are ready to live together.  So there is another difference; it is not lust-driven.


Absolutely!  Everything with Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah has precedence in Qur'an and/or Prophetic Sunnah.

The marriage of the Holy Prophet (saw) to Aisha (ra) is one such example.  He (saw) married her when she was 6 but did not take her to his house and consummate the marriage until she was 9.

You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I asked,

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

And you responded by saying,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

Therefore avoiding the questioning.

You said,

"What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date. In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time"

"which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam"

So basically it boils down to one thing, in one there is an expiration date and in the other there isn't. And according to your belief halal and haram depends on this. Those who differ with this and think otherwise would obviously be wrong according to you.

"No, this is according to the Prophetic Sunnah"

Ok. Give me a clear reference regarding misyar marriage from the Prophetic Sunnah.

"In fact, I read that the bride and/or the groom can stipulate if there should be no intimacy until they are ready to live together.  So there is another difference"

This is also done within Asian marriages. It's a common practice in Pakistanis and Indians be it Sunni or Shia. You have Nikah with ruksati or Nikah without ruksati. The second option covers the example you gave.

You said,

"It is not lust-driven"

But it can be. What's practiced in Saudi Arabia is lust-driven. That's exactly what it's based on. The examples you gave nikah without ruksati covers it.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 12, 2019, 05:44:03 AM
You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Why lie that you want to have a decent discussion when you are trying to further your own ideology?


Quote
I asked,

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

And you responded by saying,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

Therefore avoiding the questioning.

Not so fast!  Let us back up for a minute and put things in chronological order.

You quoted the following: "A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)".

You wanted us to believe that "misyaar" and "mut'ah" are one in the same.  I refuted you by showing you - from your own quoted statement - that they are not 100% identical by saying: "'Some aspects', not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage."

Therefore, it is for you to prove which aspects are similar because your quote made that claim so please do not put the burden of proof (for your own quoted claim) on me.

To me, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive so they are not the same in any aspect. 


Quote
So basically it boils down to one thing, in one there is an expiration date and in the other there isn't. And according to your belief halal and haram depends on this.

Yes and yes!  Temporary marriage, which comes with the intent to divorce and an expiration date, was pronounced haraam by the Holy Prophet (saw) attested by Imam Ali (ra) in an authentic hadith.


Quote
Ok. Give me a clear reference regarding misyar marriage from the Prophetic Sunnah.

The Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house and consummated the marriage when she was 9.  Clear-cut example of such a marriage!

Did you not see me reference this in my previous post?  Or you conveniently overlooked it?


Quote
This is also done within Asian marriages. It's a common practice in Pakistanis and Indians be it Sunni or Shia. You have Nikah with ruksati or Nikah without ruksati. The second option covers the example you gave.

I am well aware of the concept of rukhsati!


Quote
But it can be. What's practiced in Saudi Arabia is lust-driven. That's exactly what it's based on. The examples you gave nikah without ruksati covers it.

Saudi Arabia is not our benchmark.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 12, 2019, 09:35:27 PM
Why lie that you want to have a decent discussion when you are trying to further your own ideology?


Not so fast!  Let us back up for a minute and put things in chronological order.

You quoted the following: "A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)".

You wanted us to believe that "misyaar" and "mut'ah" are one in the same.  I refuted you by showing you - from your own quoted statement - that they are not 100% identical by saying: "'Some aspects', not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage."

Therefore, it is for you to prove which aspects are similar because your quote made that claim so please do not put the burden of proof (for your own quoted claim) on me.

To me, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive so they are not the same in any aspect. 


Yes and yes!  Temporary marriage, which comes with the intent to divorce and an expiration date, was pronounced haraam by the Holy Prophet (saw) attested by Imam Ali (ra) in an authentic hadith.


The Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house and consummated the marriage when she was 9.  Clear-cut example of such a marriage!

Did you not see me reference this in my previous post?  Or you conveniently overlooked it?


I am well aware of the concept of rukhsati!


Saudi Arabia is not our benchmark.

"Why lie that you want to have a decent discussion when you are trying to further your own ideology?"

You're back with your tactics again. It didn't take long to show yourself.

"You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I asked,

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

And you responded by saying,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

Therefore avoiding the questioning.

Rather than answering and explaining what you said. You're up to your old tricks of diverting attention. Can't explain yourself then just say so. Don't go gaming. No need for trick or treat. In your case there is no treat. It's just trick. But anyways lets move forward.

"A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

Yes I did quote the above. But before quoting it I said by asking "is this true". Did you deliberately miss that.

"You wanted us to believe that "misyaar" and "mut'ah" are one in the same"

Now where on earth did you get to that conclusion. I don't want you to believe in anything. I asked if it was true before quoting it. And you replied by saying in post #8 of yours,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage.

I asked you to explain yourself. And you started dancing around.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 12, 2019, 09:48:48 PM
You're back with your tactics again. It didn't take long to show yourself.

What tactics?  Exposing you?  If you want to call that a tactic then go ahead.


Quote
"You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I did not say that!  The quote you relied upon said that.  Here it is again:
"A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar 'traveller's marriage') is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)"

I was trying to point out to you that even the support for your argument does not say what you want us to believe it says.


Quote
Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

You quoted a supporting statement saying "some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam" so it is for you to explain, or find out, what those similarities are.  As far as I am concerned, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive and misyaar is nothing like mut'ah.


Quote
Therefore avoiding the questioning.

You are questioning me to clarify the statement you cited as your support?  Aren't you special stupid?!


Quote
Rather than answering and explaining what you said. You're up to your old tricks of diverting attention. Can't explain yourself then just say so. Don't go gaming. No need for trick or treat. In your case there is no treat. It's just trick. But anyways lets move forward.

I am sorry you don't properly read statements you cite to support your own argument.  It backfired on you and now you want me reconcile YOUR dichotomy, lol!  Ajeeb!
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 12, 2019, 09:50:19 PM
Why lie that you want to have a decent discussion when you are trying to further your own ideology?


Not so fast!  Let us back up for a minute and put things in chronological order.

You quoted the following: "A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)".

You wanted us to believe that "misyaar" and "mut'ah" are one in the same.  I refuted you by showing you - from your own quoted statement - that they are not 100% identical by saying: "'Some aspects', not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage."

Therefore, it is for you to prove which aspects are similar because your quote made that claim so please do not put the burden of proof (for your own quoted claim) on me.

To me, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive so they are not the same in any aspect. 


Yes and yes!  Temporary marriage, which comes with the intent to divorce and an expiration date, was pronounced haraam by the Holy Prophet (saw) attested by Imam Ali (ra) in an authentic hadith.


The Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house and consummated the marriage when she was 9.  Clear-cut example of such a marriage!

Did you not see me reference this in my previous post?  Or you conveniently overlooked it?


I am well aware of the concept of rukhsati!


Saudi Arabia is not our benchmark.

"Therefore, it is for you to prove which aspects are similar because your quote made that claim so please do not put the burden of proof (for your own quoted claim) on me"

Again I asked before quoting and you replied by saying,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage"

I asked you which aspects are similar and which aren't. No reply from you. Just counter argument.

"To me, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive so they are not the same in any aspect"

What is halal and what is haram prove it from the Quran. Your books aren't good enough for me. You know that. Provide clear proof. And misyar marriage isn't acceptable to some of your scholars. Some accept it and some don't. Some say it is halal and some consider it haram. I think you need to sort out your back yard first and get your house in order then discuss.

"Yes and yes!  Temporary marriage, which comes with the intent to divorce and an expiration date, was pronounced haraam by the Holy Prophet (saw) attested by Imam Ali (ra) in an authentic hadith"

We don't accept that. Again there's difference in opinion and different statements of who banned it. But no reason has been given to why it was banned till yet. What was the reason and purpose for it to be banned. WHY?

"The Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house and consummated the marriage when she was 9.  Clear-cut example of such a marriage"

There's different sides to that story. But lets stick to that. Prove that that was misyar marriage. Prove to me it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time.

"Saudi Arabia is not our benchmark"

Oh it very well is. Denying a fact won't get you anywhere.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 12, 2019, 09:58:12 PM
Again I asked before quoting and you replied by saying,

What difference does it make when it was your supporting evidence that made that claim? 
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 12, 2019, 10:45:08 PM
I asked you which aspects are similar and which aren't. No reply from you. Just counter argument.

You are asking the wrong person.  To me, misyaar is nothing like mut'ah.  The "some aspects are similar to mut'ah marriage" was your claim.  You should be the one to prove to us how misyaar is similar in "some aspects" to mut'ah.  Or you can admit you don't know what you are talking about and you copy-paste without reading.


Quote
What is halal and what is haram prove it from the Quran. Your books aren't good enough for me. You know that. Provide clear proof.

Aren't you the same person who refused to accept an authentic Shi'i hadith by way of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (ra) which declared those who refuse to pay Zakat as apostates and therefore condemned them to death?

If you can turn your back on your own Imam (ra), like your Kufan forefathers, there is no point discussing with you.


Quote
And misyar marriage isn't acceptable to some of your scholars. Some accept it and some don't. Some say it is halal and some consider it haram. I think you need to sort out your back yard first and get your house in order then discuss.

Scholars differ on it because it can be misused, as people have done, and are doing, so!


Quote
We don't accept that. Again there's difference in opinion and different statements of who banned it. But no reason has been given to why it was banned till yet. What was the reason and purpose for it to be banned. WHY?

Great! 

Whatever happened to "we hear and we obey".  Clearly, the Holy Prophet (saw) banning it is not enough for Shias.  Way to follow the Jews!


Quote
There's different sides to that story. But lets stick to that. Prove that that was misyar marriage. Prove to me it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time.

No different sides to the story!  The most authentic reports say that the Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house when she attained the age of 9.

Clear-cut example of misyaar!  Don't you wish you had such clear-cut evidence for Imamah?


Quote
Oh it very well is. Denying a fact won't get you anywhere.

lol desperate much?
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on November 12, 2019, 11:42:12 PM
Firstly, giving up some rights e.g. the right to accommodation, isn't the same as a 1 day or whatever length temporary marriage. It's not even comparable. If you want to go make a documentary about misyar then by all means go ahead.

Secondary mutah is prevalent in shia societies, so much so that even non-shias know about it and it's connection to shiaism. Whereas misyar is not even known to the average sunni, I rarely ever come across misyar marriage being talked about without the person who started the conversation being a shia who was weakly trying trying to defend mutah and then resorted to "oh but what about misyar!"

Shias deep down know mutah is awful, if you described it to a non-Muslim then they'd call it either prostitution or a 1 night stand. They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 12, 2019, 11:48:55 PM
If you want to go make a documentary about misyar then by all means go ahead.

Exactly!  We will welcome it wholeheartedly.  The real question is this: why are the Shias, including Iceman, embarrassed and troubled by this documentary if mut'ah is such a blessed act?


Quote
Whereas misyar is not even known to the average sunni, I rarely ever come across misyar marriage being talked about without the person who started the conversation being a shia who was weakly trying trying to defend mutah and then resorted to "oh but what about misyar!"

Great point, again!  The first time I heard about misyaar was from an online Shia.


Quote
Shias deep down know mutah is awful, if you described it to a non-Muslim then they'd call it either prostitution or a 1 night stand. They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter.

BOOM!
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2019, 12:13:11 AM
Exactly!  We will welcome it wholeheartedly.  The real question is this: why are the Shias, including Iceman, embarrassed and troubled by this documentary if mut'ah is such a blessed act?


Great point, again!  The first time I heard about misyaar was from an online Shia.


BOOM!

Like I said. There's no chance of a civilised and decent and on the subject discussion with your kind. Can't answer and explain yourself then start getting sarcastic and personal. That's you. Boom what ever. You can't trigger me. 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2019, 12:21:30 AM
Firstly, giving up some rights e.g. the right to accommodation, isn't the same as a 1 day or whatever length temporary marriage. It's not even comparable. If you want to go make a documentary about misyar then by all means go ahead.

Secondary mutah is prevalent in shia societies, so much so that even non-shias know about it and it's connection to shiaism. Whereas misyar is not even known to the average sunni, I rarely ever come across misyar marriage being talked about without the person who started the conversation being a shia who was weakly trying trying to defend mutah and then resorted to "oh but what about misyar!"

Shias deep down know mutah is awful, if you described it to a non-Muslim then they'd call it either prostitution or a 1 night stand. They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter.

All I can say is get some knowledge and information, go do some homework and learn and get to know first so you boys don't need to embarrass yourselves. No one would want a mut'ah with anyone's sister or daughter. Has anyone or would anyone come over to you themselves and want a nikah with your sisters or daughters. Has that ever happened or will it ever happen. Mut'ah isn't something you want it's something you do. And there is a procedure and method for it. There are guidelines and principles. I've already been through this on this site and dealt with what ever nonsense was thrown. Don't behave like an immature adult or a naive person.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2019, 12:27:02 AM
Firstly, giving up some rights e.g. the right to accommodation, isn't the same as a 1 day or whatever length temporary marriage. It's not even comparable. If you want to go make a documentary about misyar then by all means go ahead.

Secondary mutah is prevalent in shia societies, so much so that even non-shias know about it and it's connection to shiaism. Whereas misyar is not even known to the average sunni, I rarely ever come across misyar marriage being talked about without the person who started the conversation being a shia who was weakly trying trying to defend mutah and then resorted to "oh but what about misyar!"

Shias deep down know mutah is awful, if you described it to a non-Muslim then they'd call it either prostitution or a 1 night stand. They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter.

"They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter"

It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. This is something you can't run or escape from. When it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time were people's sisters and daughters demanded for it. And how did they react. Care to explain yourself. Can you boys explain anything. It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time, why was it banned. Why was it prohibited. What was the reason and cause.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2019, 12:35:35 AM
What difference does it make when it was your supporting evidence that made that claim?

It wasn't my supporting evidence. Don't play dumb and blind. I said "is this true" before the quote. Mut'ah was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. There was no hoo haa about it then. He banned it but why and what for. What was the reason and purpose. And you can't come up with anything. You don't have the faintest. You can't justify the ban on Mu'tah and you can't justify the practice on misyar. Your scholars are divided over misyar to such an extent that some deem it halal and others see it haram. Please get your house in order first then jump up and down. Getting sarcastic or personal with me hasn't worked in the past and surely won't work now. Try and be civilised and decent. I know it's not within your nature to be when it comes to us Shias.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2019, 12:38:45 AM
"No different sides to the story!  The most authentic reports say that the Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house when she attained the age of 9.

Clear-cut example of misyaar!"

Ok lets have it your way. My first point. You said,

"I am not worried about the parallels.  What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date.  In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.

Not this bit,

(although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.

So the Prophet's s.a.w marriage to Aisha was a clear cut example of misyaar. But it's something that's discouraged by your scholars? So the Prophet s.a.w did something which is DISCOURAGED by your scholars? Honestly you make me laugh.

My second point, in misyaar the woman gives up some of her rights. And the man is free from certain responsibility. In the Prophet's s.a.w example can you explain this. Was the Prophet's s.a.w marriage to Aisha really misyar or was it nikah and ruksati later. You really need to do some homework.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on November 13, 2019, 01:37:51 AM
"They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter"

It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. This is something you can't run or escape from. When it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time were people's sisters and daughters demanded for it. And how did they react. Care to explain yourself. Can you boys explain anything. It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time, why was it banned. Why was it prohibited. What was the reason and cause.

It's as you implied - it was allowed at one point and then it was banned. Just like how Muslims were allowed to alcohol and then it was banned. Just like how Muslim women could marry kuffar at one point and then it was banned. Who's running away, this is so easy to understand.

What reason was officially given for it to be banned? I don't know. It is enough for me to know that it was banned and follow that law.

From the outset can I see problems with mutah though? Yes I can. It's a very easy way to sleep around, have 1 night stands, mask prostitution, abuse girls etc... I'm sure deep down you as a shia can see problems with mutah too but you can't talk against it because it would mean dissing your religion and that's a very hard thing for your mind to do as you've followed shiaism for your entire life. But for the rest of us who have no love for shiaism, we can easily point out the bad problems of mutah.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2019, 02:04:58 AM
It's as you implied - it was allowed at one point and then it was banned. Just like how Muslims were allowed to alcohol and then it was banned. Just like how Muslim women could marry kuffar at point and then it was banned. Who's running away, this is so easy to understand.

"What reason was officially given for it to be banned? I don't know. It is enough for me to know that it was banned and follow that law"

We don't think it was banned. Certainly not by Muhammad s.a.w. May be by one of the rulers after Muhammad s.a.w for God knows why.

"From the outset can I see problems with mutah though"

Then why was it allowed during the Prophet's s.a.w time. What problems can you see that the people of that time couldn't.


"Yes I can. It's a very easy way to sleep around, have 1 night stands, mask prostitution, abuse girls etc..."

And when it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time the same issues and concerns you mentioned were also then. Were they not. What was so different then than now.


"I'm sure deep down you as a shia can see problems with mutah too but you can't talk against it because it would meaning dissing your religion and that's a very hard thing for your mind to do"

No not at all. But allow me to rephrase this.

"I'm sure deep down you as a Sunni know that Mu'tah was halal and practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And there were no issues or concerns regarding it then. But the second ruler after Muhammad s.a.w banned it for god knows what now you as Sunni are struggling to justify the ban.

"But for the rest of us who have no love for shiaism, we can easily point out the bad problems of mutah"

Just as you have no love for Shiaism I have no hate for your belief and faith. I'm just not a Sunni of your kind due to the double standards and the hypocritical stance that runs in the foundation of your belief and faith. I'm not a person who defends and protects certain Companions regardless. And then I'm also not who  criticises and condemns certain Companions regardless.

"Any man alive who is happy to follow such a practice and would be happy with his daughters or his sister or his mother doing mutah is a man who is living a wretched existence"

It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time and for what ever reason and purpose it was practiced then that is exactly what we believe in now. Our position and stance is exactly the same as it was during the Prophet's s.a.w time. You can use what ever language or words you want just to create emotional situation to try and get your desired result and response.


It's as you implied - it was allowed at one point and then it was banned. Just like how Muslims were allowed to alcohol and then it was banned. Just like how Muslim women could marry kuffar at point and then it was banned. Who's running away, this is so easy to understand.

"What reason was officially given for it to be banned? I don't know. It is enough for me to know that it was banned and follow that law"

We don't think it was banned. Certainly not by Muhammad s.a.w. May be by one of the rulers after Muhammad s.a.w for God knows why.

"From the outset can I see problems with mutah though"

Then why was it allowed during the Prophet's s.a.w time. What problems can you see that the people of that time couldn't.


"Yes I can. It's a very easy way to sleep around, have 1 night stands, mask prostitution, abuse girls etc..."

And when it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time the same issues and concerns you mentioned were also then. Were they not. What was so different then than now.


"I'm sure deep down you as a shia can see problems with mutah too but you can't talk against it because it would meaning dissing your religion and that's a very hard thing for your mind to do"

No not at all. But allow me to rephrase this.

"I'm sure deep down you as a Sunni know that Mu'tah was halal and practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And there were no issues or concerns regarding it then. But the second ruler after Muhammad s.a.w banned it for god knows what now you as Sunni are struggling to justify the ban.

"But for the rest of us who have no love for shiaism, we can easily point out the bad problems of mutah"

Just as you have no love for Shiaism I have no hate for your belief and faith. I'm just not a Sunni of your kind due to the double standards and the hypocritical stance that runs in the foundation of your belief and faith. I'm not a person who defends and protects certain Companions regardless. And then I'm also not who  criticises and condemns certain Companions regardless.

"Any man alive who is happy to follow such a practice and would be happy with his daughters or his sister or his mother doing mutah is a man who is living a wretched existence"

It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time and for what ever reason and purpose it was practiced then that is exactly what we believe in now. Our position and stance is exactly the same as it was during the Prophet's s.a.w time. You can use what ever language or words you want just to create emotional situation to try and get your desired result and response.

[/quote]

"It's as you implied - it was allowed at one point and then it was banned"

What was the reason and purpose of the ban. In other words why was it banned.

"Just like how Muslims were allowed to alcohol and then it was banned"

When were Muslims allowed alcohol?

"Just like how Muslim women could marry kuffar at point and then it was banned"

When and where were Muslim women allowed to marry kuffar.

"Who's running away, this is so easy to understand"

Ok, if it's that easy then explain. Don't be afraid.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 13, 2019, 02:12:21 AM
https://youtu.be/wXLUOrhtxk4
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Rationalist on November 13, 2019, 04:13:01 AM
https://youtu.be/wXLUOrhtxk4

In the end he calls Muta a Sunnah. What is the proof it is a Sunnah? In fact, 12er Shia books states that Imam Jafar said keep muta out of Madina. So his response is just giving one view, and not the different views within the schools which say Muta is halaal.
Another point is the narration where Imam Ali (as) says its halaal has a  broken chain. In fact, this narration is really from Abdullah ibn Abbas (ra).
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 14, 2019, 06:51:00 AM
Like I said. There's no chance of a civilised and decent and on the subject discussion with your kind.

Civilized discussions are held with civilized people.  You violate every principle of a civilized and intellectual discussion to get a reaction and then blame us for reacting.  No exaggeration but this might be the tenth time that I have to remind you of the golden rule: don't want nothing, don't start nothing!


Quote
Can't answer and explain yourself then start getting sarcastic and personal.

I showed you a clear-cut example of misyaar from the life of the Holy Prophet (saw).

I will not plug the holes in your argument and supporting evidence (such as the quote you blindly copy-pasted which says that mut'ah is same as misyaar in "some aspects".....it is for you to discuss those aspects).


Quote
It wasn't my supporting evidence. Don't play dumb and blind. I said "is this true" before the quote.

You are terrible at discussing and even worse at lying.  You were not querying.  You were trying to make a point by asking me if I would "also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL" GIVEN THAT it is same as mut'ah in "some aspects" as per the supporting evidence you quoted from Wikipedia.

So, in short, here is what your argument was in plain English: Misyaar is like mut'ah in some aspects, as per the quote from Wikipedia.  Would you (Muslim720) want BBC to make a documentary on it?


Quote
Mut'ah was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. There was no hoo haa about it then. He banned it but why and what for. What was the reason and purpose. And you can't come up with anything. You don't have the faintest.

We hear and we obey so when the Holy Prophet (saw) bans something, it is sufficient for us.  We will gladly let you and all those within your madhhab follow in the footsteps of Children of Israel to question, harass and object to Prophets (asws).


Quote
So the Prophet's s.a.w marriage to Aisha was a clear cut example of misyaar. But it's something that's discouraged by your scholars? So the Prophet s.a.w did something which is DISCOURAGED by your scholars? Honestly you make me laugh.

The scholars discourage us from practicing misyaar; they do not deem misyaar to be discouraged.  It is a technical point too heavy for your unintelligent brain which was recently subjected to Muharram beatings.

Polygamy - for example - is halaal, however, scholars may discourage certain people from practicing it, irrespective of the law of the land.  It is not for everyone, certainly not to be misused.  Similarly, misyaar can be misused (as you rightly pointed out by Saudis) which is why scholars discourage us from practicing it.

That been said, misyaar is a permanent marriage and during the period of living separately (when spouses forego their rights), a couple can agree on no intimacy therefore in essence, it is not rooted in lust whereas mut'ah is temporary marriage only to satisfy the lustful.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 14, 2019, 09:37:40 PM
In the end he calls Muta a Sunnah. What is the proof it is a Sunnah? In fact, 12er Shia books states that Imam Jafar said keep muta out of Madina. So his response is just giving one view, and not the different views within the schools which say Muta is halaal.
Another point is the narration where Imam Ali (as) says its halaal has a  broken chain. In fact, this narration is really from Abdullah ibn Abbas (ra).

And what about verses he mentioned from the Quran. And the other points he made. Do you just pick and choose on what to answer and address.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Rationalist on November 15, 2019, 12:01:55 AM
And what about verses he mentioned from the Quran. And the other points he made. Do you just pick and choose on what to answer and address.

Yes he made some good points. Muta in the past was really a Sunni vs Sunni issue. Then those views died  which supported it, and then it became a Sunni vs 12er Shia issue. I don't think its haraam. We are living in a different time when seeing naked women in normal.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 15, 2019, 01:58:59 AM
Civilized discussions are held with civilized people.  You violate every principle of a civilized and intellectual discussion to get a reaction and then blame us for reacting.  No exaggeration but this might be the tenth time that I have to remind you of the golden rule: don't want nothing, don't start nothing!


I showed you a clear-cut example of misyaar from the life of the Holy Prophet (saw).

I will not plug the holes in your argument and supporting evidence (such as the quote you blindly copy-pasted which says that mut'ah is same as misyaar in "some aspects".....it is for you to discuss those aspects).


You are terrible at discussing and even worse at lying.  You were not querying.  You were trying to make a point by asking me if I would "also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL" GIVEN THAT it is same as mut'ah in "some aspects" as per the supporting evidence you quoted from Wikipedia.

So, in short, here is what your argument was in plain English: Misyaar is like mut'ah in some aspects, as per the quote from Wikipedia.  Would you (Muslim720) want BBC to make a documentary on it?


We hear and we obey so when the Holy Prophet (saw) bans something, it is sufficient for us.  We will gladly let you and all those within your madhhab follow in the footsteps of Children of Israel to question, harass and object to Prophets (asws).


The scholars discourage us from practicing misyaar; they do not deem misyaar to be discouraged.  It is a technical point too heavy for your unintelligent brain which was recently subjected to Muharram beatings.

Polygamy - for example - is halaal, however, scholars may discourage certain people from practicing it, irrespective of the law of the land.  It is not for everyone, certainly not to be misused.  Similarly, misyaar can be misused (as you rightly pointed out by Saudis) which is why scholars discourage us from practicing it.

That been said, misyaar is a permanent marriage and during the period of living separately (when spouses forego their rights), a couple can agree on no intimacy therefore in essence, it is not rooted in lust whereas mut'ah is temporary marriage only to satisfy the lustful.

"Civilized discussions are held with civilized people"

You've got that right. Your thinking about Shias and their faith is neither civilised nor humane. So your attitude towards us and behaviour about us is crystal clear. So your spot on there.

"You violate every principle of a civilized and intellectual discussion"

Evidence. You got anything to back that claim up.

"to get a reaction and then blame us for reacting"

For example. An example would be nice. Otherwise you're talking wind mate.

"No exaggeration but this might be the tenth time that I have to remind you of the golden rule"

Show me those ten times. Ok just show me five out of the ten times. Don't tell me this is just another one of your 'figure of speech' only.

"don't want nothing, don't start nothing"

We don't start anything. We don't give two monkeys about what you believe in and practice. It's you and your kind that are always worried and concerned about us. We beat our chests and you feel the pain. We have made an addition to the Azaan and Iqamah and your screaming as though your going to get hanged etc etc. Get a life.

"I showed you a clear-cut example of misyaar from the life of the Holy Prophet (saw)"

Which you said that your scholars discourage. Your scholars differ over the misyar marriage. Some say it's halal and fine. Others say it's haram and wrong therefore accusing the Prophet s.a.w of haram and wrong. Astagfirullah! Like I said get your house in order first. Your scholars have a huge difference over this misyar.

"it is same as mut'ah in "some aspects" as per the supporting evidence you quoted from Wikipedia"

Before quoting I asked if it was true. So how is that supporting evidence. Don't play blind.

"We hear and we obey so when the Holy Prophet (saw) bans something, it is sufficient for us"

You believe he banned it and we don't. That's the difference. You need to prove to us that something that was halal and allowed was made haram and banned by giving us a clear reason and explanation by telling us why. This is mentioned in Muslim and that is mentioned in Bukhari ain't good enough. Because a lot of things are said and mentioned in your so called authentic books which you don't accept yourself. It's pick and choose. That's your policy.

"The scholars discourage us from practicing misyaar"

Really. You give me a clear and cut example of misyar 'the nikah of Prophet s.a.w and Aisha' and your scholars discourage you from what the Prophet s.a.w did.

People it seems like this is exactly what the Sunni belief is all about. So who's mocking the Prophet s.a.w.

"Polygamy - for example - is halaal, however, scholars may discourage certain people from practicing it, irrespective of the law of the land.  It is not for everyone, certainly not to be misused.  Similarly, misyaar can be misused (as you rightly pointed out by Saudis) which is why scholars discourage us from practicing it"

Now you're getting there. Mut'ah is halal. It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And wasn't banned during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Because there is no clear cut reason and explanation for it to be banned. It is not for everyone and certainly not to be misused. Mut'ah is not something where men and boys go around knocking people's doors asking if they can do mut'ah with there sisters or daughters and then get smacked in their face. It is their for those who seem the need for it. It's not something that you go around asking or demanding. It's for extreme or special circumstances. It's not a normal thing or practice. There are circumstances plus rules and regulations for it along with a procedure and method. Exactly the same as how and why it was during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Hurray and three cheers for those rulers who came after Muhammad s.a.w and made changes here and there.

"whereas mut'ah is temporary marriage only to satisfy the lustful"

Ok, all of a sudden you have a problem with that. Why was it practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Was that the only reason then.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on November 17, 2019, 03:32:51 AM
I think ice man is really struggling to understand the concept whereby something was once allowed but then later on banned in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh). I try to give other examples of things which went through the same concept such as alcohol or Muslim women married with non-Muslim men but he seems to think we are all in some deep conspiracy to just deny mutah for whatever reason.

Sure twelver shias don't believe it got banned. But that is a flaw in twelver shiaism. And that's why we highlight it, it is so easy to see why mutah is wrong but twelver shias tend to push it as some noble act. If they rejected it then it wouldn't be too long before other parts of twelverism would crumble in their eyes.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 17, 2019, 05:29:07 AM
Evidence. You got anything to back that claim up.

Name me one time you made a valid point to any single member here.  Just one!


Quote
Show me those ten times. Ok just show me five out of the ten times. Don't tell me this is just another one of your 'figure of speech' only.

It is easier to point to your intelligent posts, than idiotic ones, since there isn't a single intelligent post (from you) in existence.


Quote
We don't start anything. We don't give two monkeys about what you believe in and practice. It's you and your kind that are always worried and concerned about us. We beat our chests and you feel the pain. We have made an addition to the Azaan and Iqamah and your screaming as though your going to get hanged etc etc. Get a life.

Easy there!  We are not losing sleep over BBC making a documentary on an "act of Sunnah" for which every drop of water you bathe in turns into 70,000 angels asking for forgiveness for you.


Quote
Which you said that your scholars discourage. Your scholars differ over the misyar marriage. Some say it's halal and fine. Others say it's haram and wrong therefore accusing the Prophet s.a.w of haram and wrong.

Discouraged for people based on their circumstances, not discouraged as an act.  Please show me which scholar declares misyaar haraam.


Quote
"it is same as mut'ah in "some aspects" as per the supporting evidence you quoted from Wikipedia"

Before quoting I asked if it was true. So how is that supporting evidence. Don't play blind.

Because your entire purpose was to find out if I would support a documentary on misyaar given that it is similar in "some aspects" to mut'ah, as per the statement you quoted. 


Quote
Because a lot of things are said and mentioned in your so called authentic books which you don't accept yourself. It's pick and choose. That's your policy.

For example?  Name me one!  And don't be like your boyfriend T110 to make lofty claims and then disappear.


Quote
Really. You give me a clear and cut example of misyar 'the nikah of Prophet s.a.w and Aisha' and your scholars discourage you from what the Prophet s.a.w did.

Our scholars discourage us from misyaar for the reason that it can be misused.


Quote
So who's mocking the Prophet s.a.w.

The despicable ones who claim to love the Holy Prophet (saw) and his family (ra) while cursing his wives (ra) and closest Companions (ra).


Quote
Now you're getting there. Mut'ah is halal.

Relax mut'ah boy!  All I was trying to highlight was the fact that sometimes what is halaal can also be discouraged, like polygamy.


Quote
Mut'ah is not something where men and boys go around knocking people's doors asking if they can do mut'ah with there sisters or daughters and then get smacked in their face.

Yeah, mut'ah makes it easier than that.  Men and boys go to your masaajid and learning centers in Iran, Iraq and elsewhere to ask for women.  It is prostitution legitimized and facilitated by mosques. 


Quote
It is their for those who seem the need for it. It's not something that you go around asking or demanding. It's for extreme or special circumstances. It's not a normal thing or practice. There are circumstances plus rules and regulations for it along with a procedure and method.

All lies!  Clearly you need to watch the documentary and if I were to pick between your scholars and you, I would pick the former to learn about Shiaism.


Quote
Ok, all of a sudden you have a problem with that. Why was it practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Was that the only reason then.

As soon as the Holy Prophet (saw) banned it, we had a problem with it.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 19, 2019, 01:43:18 AM
I think ice man is really struggling to understand the concept whereby something was once allowed but then later on banned in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh). I try to give other examples of things which went through the same concept such as alcohol or Muslim women married with non-Muslim men but he seems to think we are all in some deep conspiracy to just deny mutah for whatever reason.

Sure twelver shias don't believe it got banned. But that is a flaw in twelver shiaism. And that's why we highlight it, it is so easy to see why mutah is wrong but twelver shias tend to push it as some noble act. If they rejected it then it wouldn't be too long before other parts of twelverism would crumble in their eyes.

I think ice man is really struggling to understand the concept whereby something was once allowed but then later on banned in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh)"

Don't go by what you THINK or ASSUME. That's your problem. Go by reasoning and explanation based on reality and facts.

"I try to give other examples of things which went through the same concept such as alcohol or Muslim women married with non-Muslim men"

Yes you gave examples which aren't based on Islamic facts. Before Muhammad s.a.w declared his Messenger Islam did exist and Muslims were around. Nobody was allowed to do this or that. People did it because they moved away from the concept of the only and one true God and the Shariah law that applied. Nothing was allowed before and then banned after. The final revelation and Messenger pbuh was brought about because majority went astray and became misguided.
 
"but he seems to think we are all in some deep conspiracy to just deny mutah for whatever reason"

You aren't in deep conspiracy and I can confirm that. You just can't justify the slightest of why something was allowed then all of a sudden it was banned and why. You can't come up with anything. That's the problem. NO EXPLANATION!


"Sure twelver shias don't believe it got banned. But that is a flaw in twelver shiaism"

Your claim it's a flaw. But you can't back it up. It's a complete misunderstanding in your belief that it was banned all of a sudden and out of the blue. You can't give a single reason to why.

"And that's why we highlight it, it is so easy to see why mutah is wrong"

If it's that blooming easy then why are you struggling to explain it.

"but twelver shias tend to push it as some noble act"

It's a noble act for those who are going to end up sinning or in a permanent marriage with huge responsibility and commitment if they ain't ready for it.

"If they rejected it then it wouldn't be too long before other parts of twelverism would crumble in their eyes"

We can't react as you want to what ever you say and put forward. Just give us a logical and reasonable explanation and understanding to why was it all of a sudden and out of the blue banned.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 19, 2019, 02:16:04 AM
Name me one time you made a valid point to any single member here.  Just one!


It is easier to point to your intelligent posts, than idiotic ones, since there isn't a single intelligent post (from you) in existence.


Easy there!  We are not losing sleep over BBC making a documentary on an "act of Sunnah" for which every drop of water you bathe in turns into 70,000 angels asking for forgiveness for you.


Discouraged for people based on their circumstances, not discouraged as an act.  Please show me which scholar declares misyaar haraam.


Because your entire purpose was to find out if I would support a documentary on misyaar given that it is similar in "some aspects" to mut'ah, as per the statement you quoted. 


For example?  Name me one!  And don't be like your boyfriend T110 to make lofty claims and then disappear.


Our scholars discourage us from misyaar for the reason that it can be misused.


The despicable ones who claim to love the Holy Prophet (saw) and his family (ra) while cursing his wives (ra) and closest Companions (ra).


Relax mut'ah boy!  All I was trying to highlight was the fact that sometimes what is halaal can also be discouraged, like polygamy.


Yeah, mut'ah makes it easier than that.  Men and boys go to your masaajid and learning centers in Iran, Iraq and elsewhere to ask for women.  It is prostitution legitimized and facilitated by mosques. 


All lies!  Clearly you need to watch the documentary and if I were to pick between your scholars and you, I would pick the former to learn about Shiaism.


As soon as the Holy Prophet (saw) banned it, we had a problem with it.

"Name me one time you made a valid point to any single member here. Just one"

First answer then ask. Everytime you're asked something you react without answering.

"It is easier to point to your intelligent posts, than idiotic ones, since there isn't a single intelligent post (from you) in existence"

You can't back your claims. You won't answer anything you're asked. You can't explain yourself. You're accusations turn out to be baseless because you can't provide any evidence when asked. Then this is exactly how you're going to come out to make yourself look good and confident.

"Easy there!  We are not losing sleep over BBC making a documentary on an "act of Sunnah" for which every drop of water you bathe in turns into 70,000 angels asking for forgiveness for you"

You've been losing more than just sleep for almost 1400 years now and that is along with your ancestors over Shiaism.

"Discouraged for people based on their circumstances, not discouraged as an act"

Explain yourself. I know you can't. Because you never can when asked.


"Because your entire purpose was to find out if I would support a documentary on misyaar given that it is similar in "some aspects" to mut'ah, as per the statement you quoted"

And again before quoting it I asked if it was true.

"For example?  Name me one!  And don't be like your boyfriend T110 to make lofty claims and then disappear"

We don't do and believe in boyfriends. We're different then you.


"Our scholars discourage us from misyaar for the reason that it can be misused"

Any reference. You've never backed anything you've said.

"The despicable ones who claim to love the Holy Prophet (saw) and his family (ra) while cursing his wives (ra) and closest Companions (ra)"

Take a look at your books. Then read and examine satanic verses and you'll know and understand where Rushdie got the material for his book.

"Relax mut'ah boy!  All I was trying to highlight was the fact that sometimes what is halaal can also be discouraged, like polygamy"

I'm relaxed son. You take it easy now misyar kid. Don't get too personal and carried away.

"Yeah, mut'ah makes it easier than that.  Men and boys go to your masaajid and learning centers in Iran, Iraq and elsewhere to ask for women.  It is prostitution legitimized and facilitated by mosques"

I've never seen and witnessed what you're saying. And you know my mosques, learning centres and my community and people more than me. Well you're living on a different planet than the rest of us.


"All lies!"

PROVE IT! You ain't proved or backed anything till yet.

"Clearly you need to watch the documentary and if I were to pick between your scholars and you, I would pick the former to learn about Shiaism"

I don't need to watch anything. I'm familiar with the BBC. I know my religion, faith, community and people. I don't need you or the BBC or anyone else to tell or show me.


"As soon as the Holy Prophet (saw) banned it, we had a problem with it"

Prove that he banned it. What was the problem. Why did he banned it.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 20, 2019, 12:36:41 AM
I don't know how true or exact this is,

Shaykh al-Albaani was asked about Misyaar marriage and he disallowed it for two reasons:

(i) That the purpose of marriage is repose as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect” [al-Room 30:21]. But this is not achieved in this kind of marriage.

(ii) It may be decreed that the husband has children with this woman, but because he is far away from her and rarely comes to her, that will be negatively reflected in his children’s upbringing and attitude.

See: Ahkaam al-Ta’addud fi Daw’ al-Kitaab wa’l-Sunnah (p. 28, 29).

What is Nikah Misyar, and is this kind of Marriage Permitted according to Shari’a?
<QUESTION>
What is a Nikah Misyar? Is this kind of marriage permitted according to Shari’a?

<ANSWER>
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
The term “Nikah Misyar” (translated sometimes as “travellers’ marriage” or “marriage of convenience”) is not found in the Qur’an, Sunna or classical works of Islamic jurisprudence. It is a term that has been introduced recently by those discussing a specific type of matrimonial arrangement. However, the concept of such an arrangement can be found being discussed in the works of classical Muslim jurists (fuqaha).

Misyar Marriage between Shari`ah texts, Realities and scholars’ Fatawa’: An Analysis
Noor Mohammad Osmani
Assistant Professor, Department of Qur?an and Sunnah Studies, IRKHS, IIUM
DOI: https://doi.org/10.3329/iiucs.v7i0.12495
Keywords: Marriage, Misyar, shari`ah, fatawa, realities
Abstract

Marriage is a sacred bond in Islam that ties a man and a woman into a lifelong relationship of love, compassion, mutual understanding, respect and security. It is a firm pledge that one makes in the name of Allah for one-another. Misyar marriage, Convenience marriage or Travelers marriage is a new form of marriage practiced widely in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other gulf states.

The Misyar bride sacrifices some of her marital rights, such as expenses, fixed duration, and an abode. The scholars in Islam have different opinions about this form of marriage. Some of them supported it vehemently, as it could reduce the number of ladies without husbands; while yet others strongly oppose it, as it sounds like part-time wives, which has no roots in Islamic heritage.

The present study therefore aims to explore the real status of Misyar or convenience marriage in the texts from the Quran, Prophets Sunnah, the practices of his rightly guided Companions and the Fatawa of the traditional and modern scholars. It would analyze them in the light of the current realities and situations prevailing in many countries of the Muslim world.

The study would adopt a critical yet objective approach in dealing with the issue. It is believed that the study would help the Muslim men and women to have clear insights on the issue based on the Shari`ah texts, scholars Fatawa and present day realities.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: GreatChineseFall on November 20, 2019, 08:53:10 AM
What was the problem. Why did he banned it.

Actually there is a funny response to this. Mut’ah was allowed for the Companions due to necessity as Ibn ‘Abbas explained. However there is a high risk of abuse with great consequences in society. The response is then simple:
The Prophet(saws) trusted the Companions in general to not abuse it and he trusted no generation afterwards in general. So that proves the ‘Adala of the Companions in general and disproves it for any other generation(like as Sadiq’s Companions) in general.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 20, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
First answer then ask. Everytime you're asked something you react without answering.

Answer what?  Do you want me to comment on how mut'ah and misyaar are similar in "some aspects"?  Well, dimwit, I did not make that claim.  You quoted that claim, not me.


Quote
You can't back your claims.

The reason we have a hard time engaging with you in a rational discussion - other than your lack of intellect and honesty - is that you ignore our claims and instead focus on something which is not being discussed.

My argument was simple and I will restate it: if mut'ah is an act of Sunnah for Shias, why are they so upset at BBC for producing a documentary on it?


Quote
You've been losing more than just sleep for almost 1400 years now and that is along with your ancestors over Shiaism.

Which Shiaism?  The political Shiaism?  Or, the ideological one?  Kaysanites or the other dozen of extinct Shi'i sects?


Quote
Explain yourself. I know you can't. Because you never can when asked.

Discouraged for its tendency to be misused, not a discouraged practice.  Still need a dictionary?


Quote
And again before quoting it I asked if it was true.

Your deception will not work.  Your main point was whether or not we would welcome a documentary on misyaar given that it is similar to mut'ah in "some aspects", as per Wikipedia (which you quoted).  My answer remains the same: we will wholeheartedly welcome a documentary on misyaar.  The real problem is the following: why are you upset at BBC for bringing mut'ah under the limelight.  Are you saying that you're embarrassed that they released information on "an act of Sunnah"?


Quote
Any reference. You've never backed anything you've said.

It is well-known!  In fact, you asked me for reference and you were the one to provide proof to substantiate my claim, lol.


Quote
Take a look at your books. Then read and examine satanic verses and you'll know and understand where Rushdie got the material for his book.

Never read the book but if Rushdie referenced the Qur'an in his book, would you also abandon the Qur'an?  Is Rushdie your criteria now?  Did not know that you've taken him in lieu of your 12th Imam.  Not your fault; the timid one won't show himself.


Quote
I've never seen and witnessed what you're saying. And you know my mosques, learning centres and my community and people more than me. Well you're living on a different planet than the rest of us.

Yes, nearly a billion and a half Muslims live on another planet where we imagine Shias to engage in mut'ah.  No way any Shia engages in mut'ah on this planet.  We must be mistaken along with BBC and everyone else.


Quote
I don't need to watch anything. I'm familiar with the BBC. I know my religion, faith, community and people. I don't need you or the BBC or anyone else to tell or show me.

I imagined you as a stubborn kid with his fingers in his ears, eyes shut and screaming, "I can't hear you, I can't hear you".  Wouldn't be surprised if you actually were doing that.


Quote
Prove that he banned it. What was the problem. Why did he banned it.

The fact that it was banned by the Holy Prophet (saw) was attested to by none other than Imam Ali (ra) himself.  I do not need to know the problem with it or why it was banned.  I am sure your scholars would like to know because the ban not only cuts their profit but also kicks them in their family jewels.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 20, 2019, 11:41:17 PM
This is what I said in post #7

Is this true,

'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

And this is how you responded in post #8

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Marriage, with the intention to divorce or with pre-agreed expiration date, is haraam and misyar or nikah kitaba has no expiration date.

I respond in post #9

Ok. Lets see if we can get upto a decent discussion.

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

Your response in post # 11

I am not worried about the parallels.  What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date.  In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.

This is me in post #12

You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I asked,

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

And you responded by saying,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

Therefore avoiding the questioning.

I can pull out many of your short cuts. You have no ground.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 21, 2019, 12:12:41 AM
Short summary. Sunni: "Mut'ah was banned". Shia: "Ok, what was the reason,why?" Sunni: "Don't know but it was banned" Shia: "Surely there must be a reason for it" Sunni: No answer. Shia: "Well if it was banned then justify the ban" Sunni: No answer just sarcastic comments, abusive language and irrelevant discussion. Conclusion: If Mut'ah was banned then what is the point and need for misyar marriage. Answer. The Sunnis finally realise that Nikah marriage isn't enough and therfore isn't the answer to all situations and conditions. There is no reference of misyar marriage in Qur'an and Sunnah. But Sunnis accept it because they no they have no choice. Mut'ah is there and covers the need and reason for misyar marriage. It doesn't matter Sunnis whether you hold your nose this way or that way. You're still holding your nose.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on November 21, 2019, 02:52:20 PM
What he doesn’t advertise is that he can also perform muta’a marriages – temporary “pleasure marriages”, which ensure that sex with young girls is halaal, or permissible according to Islam. I’ve heard rumours that he is willing to use this religious loophole to organise prostitution with girls as young as 12.

Taken from this article from the independent
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/iraq-secret-sex-trade-child-trafficking-clerics-bbc-a9211111.html

Astaghfirullah it’s truly sad that men who claim to be scholars and supposedly follow prophet pbuh and His ahle baith ra would stoop so low to engage in adult acts with children.......FILTH!

Shiite scholars must be hidden pimps😂

Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 21, 2019, 11:43:33 PM
What he doesn’t advertise is that he can also perform muta’a marriages – temporary “pleasure marriages”, which ensure that sex with young girls is halaal, or permissible according to Islam. I’ve heard rumours that he is willing to use this religious loophole to organise prostitution with girls as young as 12.

Taken from this article from the independent
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/iraq-secret-sex-trade-child-trafficking-clerics-bbc-a9211111.html

Astaghfirullah it’s truly sad that men who claim to be scholars and supposedly follow prophet pbuh and His ahle baith ra would stoop so low to engage in adult acts with children.......FILTH!

Shiite scholars must be hidden pimps😂

Don't be FOOLED by propaganda against the Shia. Well it wouldn't make any difference to you. 😂

Why was Mu'tah banned? Can you justify the ban? 😊 It's as simple as that 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 21, 2019, 11:50:55 PM
Are the following true.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 139: Narrated Abdullah:

"We used to participate in the holy wars carried on by the Prophet and we had no women (wives) with us. So we said (to the Prophet). "Shall we castrate ourselves?" But the Prophet forbade us to do that and thenceforth he allowed us to marry a woman (temporarily) by giving her even a garment, and then he recited: "O you who believe! Do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you."

Mut'ah Banned by Umar

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 43: Narrated 'Imran bin Husain:

"The Verse of muta was revealed in Allah's Book, so we performed it with Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Qur'an to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But the man (omar) just expressed what his own mind suggested"

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3250:
Abu Nadra reported:

"While I was in the company of Jabir b. Abdullah, a person came to him and said that Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'as (muta of Hajj and muta of women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them"

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3248:
Ibn Uraij reported: 'Ati' reported that

"jibir b. Abdullah came to perform 'Umra, and we came to his abode, and the people asked him about different things, and then they made a mention of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh and during the time of Abi Bakr and 'Umar"

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3249:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported:

"We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh and durnig the time of Abu Bakr until 'Umar forbade it in the case of 'Amr b. Huraith"

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3261:
Urwa b. Zabair reported that,

'Abdullah b. Zubair stood up (and delivered an address) in Mecca saying: Allah has made blind the hearts of some people as He has deprived them of eyesight that they give religious verdict in favor of temporary marriage, while he was alluding to a person (Ibn 'Abbas). Ibn Abbas called him and said: You are an uncouth person, devoid of sense. By my life, Mut'a was practised during the lifetime of the leader of the pious (he meant Allah's Messenger, pbuh), and Ibn Zubair said to him: just do it yourselves, and by Allah, if you do that I will stone you with your stones. Ibn Shihab said. Khalid b. Muhajir b. Saifullah informed me: While I was sitting in the company of a person, a person came to him and he asked for a religious verdict about Mut'a and he permitted him to do it"
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 21, 2019, 11:59:05 PM
To cut this very short since the gents are going all over the place with this. They're trying their best to avoid the main question which is severely bothering them. DID THE PROPHET S.A.W REALLY BAN MUT'AH? Any knowledgeable Sunni out there who can justify this ban by giving a clear explanation of why it was banned. What exactly was the reason and purpose. Is your faith and belief that weak that you can't come up with anything. Or are you just going by the wind that Muhammad s.a.w didn't ban it but someone else did along the line. And you just want to camouflage that by saying Muhammad s.a.w banned it. Where are the hot shots. We hear a lot about the Shias from you. You're quick at that. Lets see how good and quick you are at justifying a part of your belief and faith. 😊 All the best. Take your time. Believe me you'll need it. Good luck!
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 22, 2019, 05:42:12 AM
This is what I said in post #7

Is this true,

'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

And this is how you responded in post #8

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I said that NOT because I believe mut'ah and misyaar are similar in "some aspects".  I pointed that out to show you that even what you have quoted (as supporting argument) fails your cause because it does not say what you want us to believe it says.  In other words, even the quote you shared declares similarities in "some aspects" - NOT ALL - between the two marriages.  Therefore, it is for you to plug that hole to make your argument airtight.

I don't think you understand the rules of discussion.  It is enough to cast doubt on your interlocutor's evidence to rule it unworthy of serious contention and that is what I did.  I showed you - using your own evidence - that the two marriages are different and, at best, are similar ONLY in "some aspects" (according to your own evidence).

Bringing up something which declares mut'ah and misyaar similar in "some aspects" is far from proving they are one in the same!


Quote
Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

That is not for me to comment on.  Your evidence, your problem!  In fact, I should be challenging you to tell us how mut'ah and misyaar are similar in "some aspects" and different otherwise.


Quote
Therefore avoiding the questioning.

As I said, your evidence, your problem.  I will not strengthen your argument because one, I am not stupid to help your case.  And two, I do not believe that mut'ah and misyaar are alike, not even in "some aspects". 


Quote
I can pull out many of your short cuts. You have no ground.

First, go pull out your 12th Imam out of the cave!  He has had too much ground to take refuge in.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on November 22, 2019, 12:22:47 PM
Don't be FOOLED by propaganda against the Shia. Well it wouldn't make any difference to you. 😂

Why was Mu'tah banned? Can you justify the ban? 😊 It's as simple as that 😊

Is that it? It’s all propaganda when it comes to Shias!

It’s propaganda against Iran, it was all a propaganda by the umayyads heck it’s EASIER to believe in a man hiding in a cave without proof than to believe the anti shia propaganda propagated by shia haters even if there is a hint of truth in it.

Do you like to keep your head buried in the sand?

BBC has highlighted a shia problem that our prophet pbuh got rid of over 1400 years ago..........this should make a grown man THINK.......well I don’t know bout you.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 23, 2019, 01:20:37 AM
Is that it? It’s all propaganda when it comes to Shias!

It’s propaganda against Iran, it was all a propaganda by the umayyads heck it’s EASIER to believe in a man hiding in a cave without proof than to believe the anti shia propaganda propagated by shia haters even if there is a hint of truth in it.

Do you like to keep your head buried in the sand?

BBC has highlighted a shia problem that our prophet pbuh got rid of over 1400 years ago..........this should make a grown man THINK.......well I don’t know bout you.

"BBC has highlighted a shia problem that our prophet pbuh got rid of over 1400 years ago..........this should make a grown man THINK.......well I don’t know bout you"

The BBC has highlighted a SHIA PROBLEM? And what problem is that?

"Our Prophet s.a.w got rid of over 1400 years ago" 😕

And what problem was that which went on during the Prophet's s.a.w time? What were the Sahaba upto. Are you trying to tell me something. Don't be afraid just come out with it.

Lets get this straight. The Qur'an speaks about and allows mut'ah. The Prophet s.a.w bans it because there was a problem with it 1400 years ago. What problem was that. Was there actually a problem with mut'ah or was there actually a problem with those abusing it. Now this is getting interesting. 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 23, 2019, 01:32:00 AM
I said that NOT because I believe mut'ah and misyaar are similar in "some aspects".  I pointed that out to show you that even what you have quoted (as supporting argument) fails your cause because it does not say what you want us to believe it says.  In other words, even the quote you shared declares similarities in "some aspects" - NOT ALL - between the two marriages.  Therefore, it is for you to plug that hole to make your argument airtight.

I don't think you understand the rules of discussion.  It is enough to cast doubt on your interlocutor's evidence to rule it unworthy of serious contention and that is what I did.  I showed you - using your own evidence - that the two marriages are different and, at best, are similar ONLY in "some aspects" (according to your own evidence).

Bringing up something which declares mut'ah and misyaar similar in "some aspects" is far from proving they are one in the same!


That is not for me to comment on.  Your evidence, your problem!  In fact, I should be challenging you to tell us how mut'ah and misyaar are similar in "some aspects" and different otherwise.


As I said, your evidence, your problem.  I will not strengthen your argument because one, I am not stupid to help your case.  And two, I do not believe that mut'ah and misyaar are alike, not even in "some aspects". 


First, go pull out your 12th Imam out of the cave!  He has had too much ground to take refuge in.

"what you have quoted (as supporting argument)"

I never quoted it as supporting argument. You know that. You still want to play deceiving tactics then that's down to you.

"that the two marriages are different and, at best, are similar ONLY in "some aspects"

Again I asked you how and you twisted the matter around because you couldn’t answer your claim. Misyar has no legal concept through Qur'an and Sunnah. It's a modern day creation by some Sunnis. They have finally realised that Mu'tah has to be replaced by something. They have learned the hard way that Nikah isn't enough and doesn't solve all matters and problems.

"That is not for me to comment on.  Your evidence, your problem!"

Don't be dishonest with yourself. You made a claim and I questioned you over it. And as usual you can't answer nor explain. I know it's painful for you to admit. Your ego always gets in the way.

"First, go pull out your 12th Imam out of the cave!  He has had too much ground to take refuge in"

I'm not into sarcasm. That's not my thing. So NO COMMENT.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 23, 2019, 03:01:35 AM
I never quoted it as supporting argument. You know that. You still want to play deceiving tactics then that's down to you.

Studying for the LSATs, I just finished 30 questions on "argument structure" which tests you on the several components of an argument, namely, premises, intermediate conclusion and conclusion.  I got 26 correct.  Why am I telling you all this?  To remind you that I know argumentation and argument structure.

You posed it as a question but you were actually using it to support your argument.

Here is your post:
"Is this true,

'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

Would you also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL"

Your premise: Is "this" true? 

Now, what is "this"?  The statement you copy-pasted from Wikipedia which says that misyaar and mut'ah are similar in "some aspects".  Your conclusion is proof that you accept the Wikipedia quote so you were not asking but you were making an assertion but putting it in the form of a question.

Your conclusion: Would I like it if the Western media make a documentary on misyaar marriage as well?

Actually, your conclusion - to be fair - is subtle.  Although posed as a question, you are implying that I will not like it if BBC produces a documentary focusing on misyaar.  Why are you implying this?  Because you are accepting the validity of your premise or the validity of "this" which was the Wikipedia statement you copy-pasted.

In short, your argument could be summarized in the following manner: mut'ah and misyaar are similar, therefore, would you (Muslim720) like it if BBC made a documentary on misyaar? 

For you to throw that question at me, you have to accept the validity of your own premise which was the Wikipedia quote that badly backfired on you.


Quote
Misyar has no legal concept through Qur'an and Sunnah.

The marriage of Holy Prophet (saw) to Aisha (ra) is cited by some scholars as proof for misyaar.  Even if there is no textual proof supporting misyaar, so what?  Who said we consider it an act so great after committing which every droplet of water you pour over yourself invokes 70,000 angels to pray for your forgiveness.


Quote
They have learned the hard way that Nikah isn't enough and doesn't solve all matters and problems.

Who said the purpose of nikah is to "solve all matters and problems"?


Quote
Don't be dishonest with yourself. You made a claim and I questioned you over it.

No dimwit, you quoted something in a rush and now your own proof has turned out to be a headache for you.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on November 23, 2019, 02:49:53 PM
"BBC has highlighted a shia problem that our prophet pbuh got rid of over 1400 years ago..........this should make a grown man THINK.......well I don’t know bout you"

The BBC has highlighted a SHIA PROBLEM? And what problem is that?

"Our Prophet s.a.w got rid of over 1400 years ago" 😕

And what problem was that which went on during the Prophet's s.a.w time? What were the Sahaba upto. Are you trying to tell me something. Don't be afraid just come out with it.

Lets get this straight. The Qur'an speaks about and allows mut'ah. The Prophet s.a.w bans it because there was a problem with it 1400 years ago. What problem was that. Was there actually a problem with mut'ah or was there actually a problem with those abusing it. Now this is getting interesting. 😊

Very interesting you are getting Sunnis in a twist because they can’t answer.

Don’t worry about us all we do is propagate lies about Shias and their beliefs, I mean it’s not that hard to find the truth if we studied shiism.

Quran sure does talk about muta but is very very silent on the major pillar of shiism, I am sure the darn Sunnis have twisted the words of Quran or like some shiites believe CHANGED the words to suit themselves.

It’s all propaganda from the time of Sahabas.

If it wasn’t then shiism would have flourished but the Sunnis were so good at their propaganda from the first Sahabas to the umamayads and beyond to this day yet still them darn Sunnis are good at propagating falsehoods and lies.

Well done👍

Go sip on some desi chai and relax you’ve got the Sunnis.


Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 23, 2019, 07:46:59 PM
Very interesting you are getting Sunnis in a twist because they can’t answer.

Don’t worry about us all we do is propagate lies about Shias and their beliefs, I mean it’s not that hard to find the truth if we studied shiism.

Quran sure does talk about muta but is very very silent on the major pillar of shiism, I am sure the darn Sunnis have twisted the words of Quran or like some shiites believe CHANGED the words to suit themselves.

It’s all propaganda from the time of Sahabas.

If it wasn’t then shiism would have flourished but the Sunnis were so good at their propaganda from the first Sahabas to the umamayads and beyond to this day yet still them darn Sunnis are good at propagating falsehoods and lies.

Well done👍

Go sip on some desi chai and relax you’ve got the Sunnis.

Still can't justify the ban on Mu'tah. Did the Prophet s.a.w really ban mut'ah. Any explanation to this. No. Just digging dirt on Shiaism and slagging the Shias off. That's all you are and strive on. Misyar marriage, can you prove this based on Qur'an and Sunnah. And what was the need and urge for misyar marriage. So you finally decided that Mu'tah had to be eventually replaced by something. Qur'an isn't silent on anything. As far as the majority pillars of my faith are concerned, been there and discussed it many times over. I'm not going to let you derail the thread. Prove to me with a valid and clear explanation that the Prophet s.a.w banned Mu'tah. You can run but you can't hide. And far as we are concerned you just figure out where your system of Caliphate disappeared. Didn't last very long did it. Man made and brought things don't. 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 23, 2019, 08:27:35 PM
Studying for the LSATs, I just finished 30 questions on "argument structure" which tests you on the several components of an argument, namely, premises, intermediate conclusion and conclusion.  I got 26 correct.  Why am I telling you all this?  To remind you that I know argumentation and argument structure.

You posed it as a question but you were actually using it to support your argument.

Here is your post:
"Is this true,

'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

Would you also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL"

Your premise: Is "this" true? 

Now, what is "this"?  The statement you copy-pasted from Wikipedia which says that misyaar and mut'ah are similar in "some aspects".  Your conclusion is proof that you accept the Wikipedia quote so you were not asking but you were making an assertion but putting it in the form of a question.

Your conclusion: Would I like it if the Western media make a documentary on misyaar marriage as well?

Actually, your conclusion - to be fair - is subtle.  Although posed as a question, you are implying that I will not like it if BBC produces a documentary focusing on misyaar.  Why are you implying this?  Because you are accepting the validity of your premise or the validity of "this" which was the Wikipedia statement you copy-pasted.

In short, your argument could be summarized in the following manner: mut'ah and misyaar are similar, therefore, would you (Muslim720) like it if BBC made a documentary on misyaar? 

For you to throw that question at me, you have to accept the validity of your own premise which was the Wikipedia quote that badly backfired on you.


The marriage of Holy Prophet (saw) to Aisha (ra) is cited by some scholars as proof for misyaar.  Even if there is no textual proof supporting misyaar, so what?  Who said we consider it an act so great after committing which every droplet of water you pour over yourself invokes 70,000 angels to pray for your forgiveness.


Who said the purpose of nikah is to "solve all matters and problems"?


No dimwit, you quoted something in a rush and now your own proof has turned out to be a headache for you.

"Studying for the LSATs, I just finished 30 questions on "argument structure" which tests you on the several components of an argument, namely, premises, intermediate conclusion and conclusion.  I got 26 correct.  Why am I telling you all this?  To remind you that I know argumentation and argument structure"

You're telling me all this because you lack in intellectual discussion. You just want to hide it because your ego is getting the better of you. Let me tell you what you dont want to here. You talk and speak with hate. And that hate is based on grudge which you have against me, my faith, community and people. Where did this grudge come and develope from. Well there's multiple reasons for this. 1, All the nonsense and rubbish that you've been told about us as you've been raised and brought up. You just developed a mindset on that. And you're hell-bent in sticking to it.

2, Your faith and belief. It's man made. It's something you can't justify from Qur'an and Sunnah. Because you believe that Qur'an and Sunnah are silent on the most important matter. And that is governance after Muhammad s.a.w. Your belief and faith is based on incidents and events as they unfolded. And obviously things change and take a different course. Well it's obvious since that's human nature. And that's how things will turn out to be, topsy and turvy. And since your belief and faith depends on it so it will end up contradicting. From here you'll just rely and depend on double standards. And eventually develop a hypocritical element.

3, Don't know much about your ancestors. But when it comes to your kind meaning those who hold extreme views about others and their beliefs usually have an ancestral clash somewhere up there. So they actually go by those ancestral differences. There not actually speaking but infact those differences are talking through them.

"You posed it as a question but you were actually using it to support your argument"

See what I mean. You're the judge, the jury and the executioner. What you assume is what you go by. Even if the facts go against you.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on November 23, 2019, 10:20:44 PM
Studying for the LSATs, I just finished 30 questions on "argument structure" which tests you on the several components of an argument, namely, premises, intermediate conclusion and conclusion.  I got 26 correct.  Why am I telling you all this?  To remind you that I know argumentation and argument structure.

You posed it as a question but you were actually using it to support your argument.

Here is your post:
"Is this true,

'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

Would you also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL"

Your premise: Is "this" true? 

Now, what is "this"?  The statement you copy-pasted from Wikipedia which says that misyaar and mut'ah are similar in "some aspects".  Your conclusion is proof that you accept the Wikipedia quote so you were not asking but you were making an assertion but putting it in the form of a question.

Your conclusion: Would I like it if the Western media make a documentary on misyaar marriage as well?

Actually, your conclusion - to be fair - is subtle.  Although posed as a question, you are implying that I will not like it if BBC produces a documentary focusing on misyaar.  Why are you implying this?  Because you are accepting the validity of your premise or the validity of "this" which was the Wikipedia statement you copy-pasted.

In short, your argument could be summarized in the following manner: mut'ah and misyaar are similar, therefore, would you (Muslim720) like it if BBC made a documentary on misyaar? 

For you to throw that question at me, you have to accept the validity of your own premise which was the Wikipedia quote that badly backfired on you.


The marriage of Holy Prophet (saw) to Aisha (ra) is cited by some scholars as proof for misyaar.  Even if there is no textual proof supporting misyaar, so what?  Who said we consider it an act so great after committing which every droplet of water you pour over yourself invokes 70,000 angels to pray for your forgiveness.


Who said the purpose of nikah is to "solve all matters and problems"?


No dimwit, you quoted something in a rush and now your own proof has turned out to be a headache for you.

"Even if there is no textual proof supporting misyaar, so what?"

This is exactly the sound and saying of someone arrogant.

"No dimwit, you quoted something in a rush and now your own proof has turned out to be a headache for you"

No I didn’t. You said something which you couldn't back as usual. Would you like the evidence in black and white again.

"For you to throw that question at me, you have to accept the validity of your own premise which was the Wikipedia quote that badly backfired on you"

It didn't backfire at all. I'm very careful what I say. And very selective before I say. You got caught as usual. You say something without thinking and without looking. Then you can't explain yourself. You don't have a level head. You're not composed.

"In short, your argument could be summarized in the following manner: mut'ah and misyaar are similar, therefore, would you (Muslim720) like it if BBC made a documentary on misyaar"

I never said they were similar. You said some aspects were similar. When I questioned you over it this is what you said;

You said,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

This is what you said.

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I asked,

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

And you responded by saying,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

Now you're just trying to make yourself look good by saving yourself from embarrassment. 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on November 25, 2019, 08:27:56 PM
You're telling me all this because you lack in intellectual discussion. You just want to hide it because your ego is getting the better of you.

Or I told you all that to show you I understand argument structure and that you were making an argument, not just asking.


Quote
You talk and speak with hate. And that hate is based on grudge which you have against me, my faith, community and people.

Why would I hate the Shi'i community?  Hating other Muslims is a hallmark of the Ithna Ashari, not me.


Quote
Your faith and belief. It's man made. It's something you can't justify from Qur'an and Sunnah.

My five pillars of Islam and six fundamentals of faith are clearly specified in both Qur'an and Sunnah.  More than 1400 years have elapsed and not a single Qur'anic verse in favor of Imamah.  It is very clear whose faith and beliefs are man-made.


Quote
Because you believe that Qur'an and Sunnah are silent on the most important matter. And that is governance after Muhammad s.a.w.

The Holy Prophet (saw) advised the Sahaba (ra) to elect their own general in a battle should the chosen one, his backup and backup to backup, perish.  The Qur'an also speaks about consultation so you can keep on adding new dimensions to the discussion but it won't help your case.  BBC has released its documentary and you have to take up this issue with them.


Quote
Your belief and faith is based on incidents and events as they unfolded. And obviously things change and take a different course. Well it's obvious since that's human nature. And that's how things will turn out to be, topsy and turvy. And since your belief and faith depends on it so it will end up contradicting. From here you'll just rely and depend on double standards. And eventually develop a hypocritical element.

Double standards and hypocritical element like how the father fought Muawiya, the son made peace with him and the younger son rebelled against Muawiya's son all the while the three (father, son and younger son) being "infallible", right?


Quote
Don't know much about your ancestors. But when it comes to your kind meaning those who hold extreme views about others and their beliefs usually have an ancestral clash somewhere up there. So they actually go by those ancestral differences. There not actually speaking but infact those differences are talking through them.

Like your Kufan ancestors, descendants of the killers of Imam Hussain (ra), who held extreme views (such as, the Ahlul Bayt r.a. are infallible but only a selected few while cursing the rest of Ahlul Bayt r.a.) and mandated that if there are two authentic Shi'i ahaadith that the Shias should follow the one that opposes Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, right?


Quote
See what I mean. You're the judge, the jury and the executioner. What you assume is what you go by. Even if the facts go against you.

No, I am not the judge; I understand argument structure.


Quote
It didn't backfire at all. I'm very careful what I say. And very selective before I say.

Really?  Well it only said that mut'ah and misyaar are similar in "some aspects", not all.  Tell us how are they similar and how are they different!  You quoted it so you should account for what all the explicit and implicit claims in it.


Quote
I never said they were similar. You said some aspects were similar. When I questioned you over it this is what you said

No, the quote said that; I only highlighted it for you to show you that your own evidence is not much of a support.


Quote
Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

Since it was your supporting evidence making that claim, it is for you to explain the similarities and differences.  To me, misyaar is nothing like mut'ah and those who misuse misyaar (to make it resemble mut'ah) are upon serious misguidance.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 03, 2019, 05:06:45 PM
Or I told you all that to show you I understand argument structure and that you were making an argument, not just asking.


Why would I hate the Shi'i community?  Hating other Muslims is a hallmark of the Ithna Ashari, not me.


My five pillars of Islam and six fundamentals of faith are clearly specified in both Qur'an and Sunnah.  More than 1400 years have elapsed and not a single Qur'anic verse in favor of Imamah.  It is very clear whose faith and beliefs are man-made.


The Holy Prophet (saw) advised the Sahaba (ra) to elect their own general in a battle should the chosen one, his backup and backup to backup, perish.  The Qur'an also speaks about consultation so you can keep on adding new dimensions to the discussion but it won't help your case.  BBC has released its documentary and you have to take up this issue with them.


Double standards and hypocritical element like how the father fought Muawiya, the son made peace with him and the younger son rebelled against Muawiya's son all the while the three (father, son and younger son) being "infallible", right?


Like your Kufan ancestors, descendants of the killers of Imam Hussain (ra), who held extreme views (such as, the Ahlul Bayt r.a. are infallible but only a selected few while cursing the rest of Ahlul Bayt r.a.) and mandated that if there are two authentic Shi'i ahaadith that the Shias should follow the one that opposes Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, right?


No, I am not the judge; I understand argument structure.


Really?  Well it only said that mut'ah and misyaar are similar in "some aspects", not all.  Tell us how are they similar and how are they different!  You quoted it so you should account for what all the explicit and implicit claims in it.


No, the quote said that; I only highlighted it for you to show you that your own evidence is not much of a support.


Since it was your supporting evidence making that claim, it is for you to explain the similarities and differences.  To me, misyaar is nothing like mut'ah and those who misuse misyaar (to make it resemble mut'ah) are upon serious misguidance.

"Or I told you all that to show you I understand argument structure and that you were making an argument, not just asking"

I was just asking. But since you're an anti shia and a really desperate one then it doesn't matter what I say your desperation will eventually get in the way.

"Why would I hate the Shi'i community?  Hating other Muslims is a hallmark of the Ithna Ashari, not me"

Ok, lets try this again.you said "Why would I hate the Shi'i community?" Ok, give me something positive and constructive you said about the Shia. Anything.

"My five pillars of Islam and six fundamentals of faith are clearly specified in both Qur'an and Sunnah"

And so are mine. The only difference is you believe in the Qur'an OR the Sunnah when it suits you. You jump from one to the other based on your desire. I believe in the Qur'an AND Sunnah. That's the difference.

"More than 1400 years have elapsed and not a single Qur'anic verse in favor of Imamah"

It's been 1400 years and no one has been able to undermine us. Accusations and allegations one after the other have been challenged head on. Imamah has been proven many times over.

"It is very clear whose faith and beliefs are man-made"

Yep. Those who believe in the unfortunate incident in Saqifa and the coincidental and immature decision made there between a handful of people.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 03, 2019, 06:24:11 PM


And so are mine. The only difference is you believe in the Qur'an OR the Sunnah when it suits you. You jump from one to the other based on your desire. I believe in the Qur'an AND Sunnah. That's the difference.


It's been 1400 years and no one has been able to undermine us. Accusations and allegations one after the other have been challenged head on. Imamah has been proven many times over.


Yep. Those who believe in the unfortunate incident in Saqifa and the coincidental and immature decision made there between a handful of people.

You first of all don’t believe in sunnah unless it’s written by liars and deceivers who deceived you into believing in some fairy tale imamate divinity thing!!

You got OWNED with that!

That IS the DIFFERENCE 😜

You couldn’t proof Imamate even if YOUR life depended on it..........you got owned on imamah too, I/we are still waiting for you to produce a clear cut verse on imamate........instead of using a title relating to a major prophet as and twisting it to make belief that it’s about imamah full stop......PROMOTION!!!!😂 that’s the only thing you can produce as evidence.

Better than believing in a man made idea of divine imams that has NO proof in Quran or sunnah..........Something you are having major problems with since the last 1400 years.

1400 years and yet no divine imam EVER ruled according to shiite way of ruling.

It must hurt that no sane people will believe in fairytale divine imams unless you have a screw missing in your head........and ALHAMDULILLAH you are a perfect example of that.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 03, 2019, 08:59:52 PM
Or I told you all that to show you I understand argument structure and that you were making an argument, not just asking.


Why would I hate the Shi'i community?  Hating other Muslims is a hallmark of the Ithna Ashari, not me.


My five pillars of Islam and six fundamentals of faith are clearly specified in both Qur'an and Sunnah.  More than 1400 years have elapsed and not a single Qur'anic verse in favor of Imamah.  It is very clear whose faith and beliefs are man-made.


The Holy Prophet (saw) advised the Sahaba (ra) to elect their own general in a battle should the chosen one, his backup and backup to backup, perish.  The Qur'an also speaks about consultation so you can keep on adding new dimensions to the discussion but it won't help your case.  BBC has released its documentary and you have to take up this issue with them.


Double standards and hypocritical element like how the father fought Muawiya, the son made peace with him and the younger son rebelled against Muawiya's son all the while the three (father, son and younger son) being "infallible", right?


Like your Kufan ancestors, descendants of the killers of Imam Hussain (ra), who held extreme views (such as, the Ahlul Bayt r.a. are infallible but only a selected few while cursing the rest of Ahlul Bayt r.a.) and mandated that if there are two authentic Shi'i ahaadith that the Shias should follow the one that opposes Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, right?


No, I am not the judge; I understand argument structure.


Really?  Well it only said that mut'ah and misyaar are similar in "some aspects", not all.  Tell us how are they similar and how are they different!  You quoted it so you should account for what all the explicit and implicit claims in it.


No, the quote said that; I only highlighted it for you to show you that your own evidence is not much of a support.


Since it was your supporting evidence making that claim, it is for you to explain the similarities and differences.  To me, misyaar is nothing like mut'ah and those who misuse misyaar (to make it resemble mut'ah) are upon serious misguidance.

"The Holy Prophet (saw) advised the Sahaba (ra) to elect their own general in a battle should the chosen one, his backup and backup to backup, perish. The Qur'an also speaks about consultation"

This has got nothing to do with who governs after Muhammad s.a.w. It's a totally separate issue. Choosing and general if one gets killed or dealing matters through consultation etc has got nothing to do with divine authority. Its to do with general matters. Muhammad s.a.w wasn't chosen through consultation and neither by the people. So who governs after Muhammad s.a.w has to be chosen by Allah and introduced by Muhammad s.a.w. That's what we believe in.

"so you can keep on adding new dimensions to the discussion but it won't help your case.  BBC has released its documentary and you have to take up this issue with them"

We don't need to add or subtract anything. That's what the Caliphs did. As far as the BBC is concerned we don't take them seriously nor anyone else. Our job is to put facts forward. And to make our position clear regarding false allegations baseless accusations and exaggerated stories based on propaganda concerning us. We've been dealing with this for nearly 1400 years. It doesn't bother us. Whether it's you or the BBC, you can't paint a picture of my community and people on the doings of a handful of people. If someone is abusing the law that's their problem and not the community and faith they belong to. So nice try.

"Since it was your supporting evidence making that claim, it is for you to explain the similarities and differences.  To me, misyaar is nothing like mut'ah and those who misuse misyaar (to make it resemble mut'ah) are upon serious misguidance."

You're beating around the bush. I've made this clear and pointed out your flaw. Already addressed it. Now If you want to keep beating around the bush to hide your embarrassment rather than being a man and owning up to it then that's down to you.

"Double standards and hypocritical element like how the father fought Muawiya, the son made peace with him and the younger son rebelled against Muawiya's son all the while the three (father, son and younger son) being "infallible", right?"

Already dealt with this and addressed it. Not going to fall in your trap by you trying to derail the thread. Stick to the subject and what is being discussed.

Kufans aren't my ancestors. I'm a Syed alhamdulillah. The Ahlul Bayt are my ancestors. I hold on to the book of Allah and the progeny of the Prophet s.a.w. I'm not all over the place like you. Nice try but the entire world now knows who killed Hussain. Your sixth Caliph Yazeed Ibne Muawiya.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 03, 2019, 09:13:10 PM
Stick to the thread. Stop bringing in irrelevant stuff. Have the mods and admins given you a free hand to put on a show. Or do they go to sleep when it comes to people like you few.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 04, 2019, 01:25:26 AM
You first of all don’t believe in sunnah unless it’s written by liars and deceivers who deceived you into believing in some fairy tale imamate divinity thing!!

You got OWNED with that!

That IS the DIFFERENCE 😜

You couldn’t proof Imamate even if YOUR life depended on it..........you got owned on imamah too, I/we are still waiting for you to produce a clear cut verse on imamate........instead of using a title relating to a major prophet as and twisting it to make belief that it’s about imamah full stop......PROMOTION!!!!😂 that’s the only thing you can produce as evidence.

Better than believing in a man made idea of divine imams that has NO proof in Quran or sunnah..........Something you are having major problems with since the last 1400 years.

1400 years and yet no divine imam EVER ruled according to shiite way of ruling.

It must hurt that no sane people will believe in fairytale divine imams unless you have a screw missing in your head........and ALHAMDULILLAH you are a perfect example of that.

Discussed it and proved it many times over. Now stick to the blooming topic and stop bringing in irrelevant stuff. The mods and admins are going to turn a blind eye so I will have to do their job in telling you. Stick to the thread and topic.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 04, 2019, 09:47:48 AM
BBC TO POST UNDER COVER MUT'AH DOCUMENTARY. This is the title of the thread. Just stick to this. You want to discuss anything else then start a thread. First the documentary, what are the BBC trying to prove here? That there are a group of people from a particular community who are misusing and abusing the law for their own desire and gain. There are a few bad beans in every packet or tin. The same is that there are bad people in every community or nation, group or sect. Just as there are people from the Sunni community who believe in using means of violence and threatening behaviour just to have their demands met. And because of that they go out and cause terrible offences and are responsible for atrocities. Now what are the attentions of starting this thread on the documtary about the BBC? Just to give the Shia community and it's people and it's faith belief a bad name. To paint a bad picture of the entire community. And to prove that mut'ah is a terrible act. The question is if mut'ah was a terrible act then why is it clearly mentioned in the Qur'an. And why was it practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 04, 2019, 10:35:38 AM
Now what are the inttentions of starting this thread on the documtary about the BBC? What kind of attention are certain people on this thread/site looking for? They are just trying to give the Shia community and it's people and it's faith and belief a bad name. They're trying to paint a bad picture of the entire Shia community. And to prove that mut'ah is a terrible act. The question is if mut'ah was a terrible act then why is it clearly mentioned in the Qur'an. And why was it practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And the multi million dollar question still stands. The Prophet s.a.w banned it. OK, WHY? Just by saying it and giving me a reference from a book or any book isn't good enough. Because the authenticity and reliability of these books and what's in them isn't guaranteed 100%.

But still I will hand it to you. Surely the Prophet s.a.w must have mentioned something about banning it. Anything from your books that give a clear understanding and explanation to why it was banned. OK, I'll start off. Is this what you're trying to say and tell through the BBC documentary that certain individuals were misusing and abusing nikah e mut'ah  during the Prophet's s.a.w time that's why the Prophet s.a.w banned it? Are you trying to prove by the BBC documentary that mut'ah is a horrible and terrible act or practice? If that's the case then why is it mentioned in the Qur'an and allowed by Allah to begin with? Wouldn't it be clear if you use your senses and add a bit of logic to it that to misuse or abuse something doesn't make something wrong but it's actually the misuser and the abuser that is wrong.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 04, 2019, 10:17:59 PM
Here's another documentary by the BBC which you guys have missed.

https://youtu.be/TlvNMlIMWhw
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 05, 2019, 09:06:57 PM
I was just asking. But since you're an anti shia and a really desperate one then it doesn't matter what I say your desperation will eventually get in the way.

If you stop playing the victim card, maybe your brain will start comprehending my point.


Quote
Ok, lets try this again.you said "Why would I hate the Shi'i community?" Ok, give me something positive and constructive you said about the Shia. Anything.

I shared a discussion with another Shi'i brother regarding my positive experiences at Shi'i mosques.  Find it! 


Quote
And so are mine.

You cannot substantiate Imamah from any source except your own whims.


Quote
The only difference is you believe in the Qur'an OR the Sunnah when it suits you. You jump from one to the other based on your desire. I believe in the Qur'an AND Sunnah. That's the difference.

Says the guy who renounced his own 6th "infallible" Imam (ra) when his judgment, in an authentic Shi'i hadith, sided with that of Khalid ibn Waleed (ra) in the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.


Quote
Imamah has been proven many times over.

From your whims, of course!


Quote
Yep. Those who believe in the unfortunate incident in Saqifa and the coincidental and immature decision made there between a handful of people.

Those who believe Saqifa to be an unfortunate incident are stuck in misfortune and will remain in that state in this world and hereafter.  Too bad for them that their own infallible Imams (ra), first and second, accepted leadership based on the guidelines laid down in Saqifa, not as per the whims of their Kufan so-called "followers" who back-stabbed and killed their descendants.


Quote
This has got nothing to do with who governs after Muhammad s.a.w. It's a totally separate issue. Choosing and general if one gets killed or dealing matters through consultation etc has got nothing to do with divine authority.

It has everything to do with governance.  The general during a battle is the leader so if it is okay to elect a leader in one instance, it is precedence for such an action in another instance.


Quote
Its to do with general matters. Muhammad s.a.w wasn't chosen through consultation and neither by the people. So who governs after Muhammad s.a.w has to be chosen by Allah and introduced by Muhammad s.a.w. That's what we believe in.

The Holy Prophet (saw) was chosen to deliver the message and once it was perfected, there was no need for such Divine Appointment.  Unless you believe in prophethood after the Holy Prophet (saw).


Quote
We don't need to add or subtract anything. That's what the Caliphs did.

Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) maintained what the Caliphs (ra) before them did.  Congratulations for making your own "infallible" Imams (ra) an accomplice in their "crime".


Quote
As far as the BBC is concerned we don't take them seriously nor anyone else. Our job is to put facts forward. And to make our position clear regarding false allegations baseless accusations and exaggerated stories based on propaganda concerning us. We've been dealing with this for nearly 1400 years. It doesn't bother us. Whether it's you or the BBC, you can't paint a picture of my community and people on the doings of a handful of people. If someone is abusing the law that's their problem and not the community and faith they belong to. So nice try.

BBC made a documentary on an "act of Sunnah" so highly praised in your madhhab.  Why do you need to clarify your position?  How is it that an "act of Sunnah" is so troublesome for you?


Quote
You're beating around the bush. I've made this clear and pointed out your flaw. Already addressed it. Now If you want to keep beating around the bush to hide your embarrassment rather than being a man and owning up to it then that's down to you.

No you have not!  It was your supporting evidence so instead of being a weasel, tell us in what ways are mut'ah and misyaar similar.  After all, that is the claim your evidence made!


Quote
Kufans aren't my ancestors. I'm a Syed alhamdulillah. The Ahlul Bayt are my ancestors.

Sure and the sun rises from the West.


Quote
I hold on to the book of Allah and the progeny of the Prophet s.a.w. I'm not all over the place like you.

Why didn't you hold on to the Progeny of the Holy Prophet (saw) when Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) deemed those who refuse to pay Zakat kafir and said that they ought to be condemned by capital punishment?
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 06, 2019, 11:32:53 AM
If you stop playing the victim card, maybe your brain will start comprehending my point.


I shared a discussion with another Shi'i brother regarding my positive experiences at Shi'i mosques.  Find it! 


You cannot substantiate Imamah from any source except your own whims.


Says the guy who renounced his own 6th "infallible" Imam (ra) when his judgment, in an authentic Shi'i hadith, sided with that of Khalid ibn Waleed (ra) in the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.


From your whims, of course!


Those who believe Saqifa to be an unfortunate incident are stuck in misfortune and will remain in that state in this world and hereafter.  Too bad for them that their own infallible Imams (ra), first and second, accepted leadership based on the guidelines laid down in Saqifa, not as per the whims of their Kufan so-called "followers" who back-stabbed and killed their descendants.


It has everything to do with governance.  The general during a battle is the leader so if it is okay to elect a leader in one instance, it is precedence for such an action in another instance.


The Holy Prophet (saw) was chosen to deliver the message and once it was perfected, there was no need for such Divine Appointment.  Unless you believe in prophethood after the Holy Prophet (saw).


Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) maintained what the Caliphs (ra) before them did.  Congratulations for making your own "infallible" Imams (ra) an accomplice in their "crime".


BBC made a documentary on an "act of Sunnah" so highly praised in your madhhab.  Why do you need to clarify your position?  How is it that an "act of Sunnah" is so troublesome for you?


No you have not!  It was your supporting evidence so instead of being a weasel, tell us in what ways are mut'ah and misyaar similar.  After all, that is the claim your evidence made!


Sure and the sun rises from the West.


Why didn't you hold on to the Progeny of the Holy Prophet (saw) when Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) deemed those who refuse to pay Zakat kafir and said that they ought to be condemned by capital punishment?

"If you stop playing the victim card, maybe your brain will start comprehending my point"

I don't play the victim card. Infact I don't play cards at all. Only pointing out what is true. Your points are based on sarcasm because of the grudge you hold on hatred about my faith and community. I don't take you seriously.

"I shared a discussion with another Shi'i brother regarding my positive experiences at Shi'i mosques.  Find it!"

I don't need to find anything. All I've seen from you is nothing but absolute negativity towards my faith and community. And I ain't surprised. Your experience about Shia mosques are nothing but tales. Why? Because there's no supporting evidence. You can't back them up. They're just words. Experience about mosques. Allow me to put forward in black and white recorded footage of experience regarding a known Sunni mosque and what the Sunni ideology stands for.

https://youtu.be/3WgVa3VRFb4

"You cannot substantiate Imamah from any source except your own whims"

Proved Imamah straight and direct from the Qur'an that Allah alone choses and selects Imams.

"Says the guy who renounced his own 6th "infallible" Imam (ra) when his judgment, in an authentic Shi'i hadith, sided with that of Khalid ibn Waleed (ra) in the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah"

You want something from the Qur'an only then you produce something from the Qur'an only. That's what it was about. You demand then you also deliver.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 06, 2019, 01:13:39 PM
Here's another documentary by the BBC which you guys have missed.

https://youtu.be/TlvNMlIMWhw

I live in the UK and we didn't "miss" this documentary. It was discussed amongst the community here when it came out and marrying with the intention to divorce just so you can get back with your previous spouse is apparently a major sin. This is in contrast to mutah which is openly accepted in the shia community and seen as a noble act.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 06, 2019, 03:40:12 PM
Those who believe Saqifa to be an unfortunate incident are stuck in misfortune and will remain in that state in this world and hereafter"

First of all can you prove this from the Qur'an. Just showing you your double stance and standard. Secondly Saqifa was an incident. It wasn't a public gathering or event which was organised were all parties concerned gathered/assembled to choose/select a leader to govern the Muslim Ummah and it's affairs. Only three Muhajirs rushed there to stop from something terrible from happening. They actually didn't go there to stop something terrible from happening but to stop leadership from slipping away from them.

"Too bad for them that their own infallible Imams (ra), first and second, accepted leadership based on the guidelines laid down in Saqifa"

Absolutely wrong and false. This is why am here to stop such malicious lies. To stop people from being fooled by people like you. Prove your claim to me that the first and second, accepted leadership based on the guidelines laid down in Saqifa. Secondly Yazeed Ibne Muawiya was he made Caliph according to those guidelines as well made in Saqifa what ever they are. After all majority of the sahaba along with their offsprings gave allegiance to Yazeed Ibne Muawiya. See what I mean, I can easily catch you out through your own statements. Your faith and belief is all over the place. I know you won't answer directly. Because you can't with such double standards in your faith and belief. You'll only come up with counter arguments or sarcastic comments or irrelevant stuff as you normally do.

"not as per the whims of their Kufan so-called "followers" who back-stabbed and killed their descendants"

You keep yapping on about the Kufans. This is another malicious and filthy lie by your kind just to camouflage or hide the actual perpetrators. The Kufans were put under siege. The governor of Kufa was replaced and Ubaydallah ibn Ziyaad was put in charge by your Caliph Yazeed Ibne Muawiya. Kufa was under lock down and Kufans put under siege. Those who killed Hussain, his family members, his relatives, companions and supporters were companions of the Prophet s.a.w or their offsprings. It was your Islamic Caliphate that ordered the killing. And the killing was done by a battalion of the Muslim army. I know it's painful for you that's why you come up with malicious lies to hide the truth.

"It has everything to do with governance.  The general during a battle is the leader so if it is okay to elect a leader in one instance, it is precedence for such an action in another instance"

There is a clear difference in selecting and choosing people to lead prayers or in what ever sector compared to leadership of the Ummah. We have divine guidance and you believe in Caliphate through and by means of consultation. Lets go by your consultation. Once again what are the principles, the rules and regulations the guidelines on selecting a leader after Muhammad s.a.w by means of consultation. What's the procedure and method. Give me a clean, cut and clear answer then explain to me how it was implemented and conducted in Saqifa. Good luck!

"The Holy Prophet (saw) was chosen to deliver the message and once it was perfected, there was no need for such Divine Appointment.  Unless you believe in prophethood after the Holy Prophet (saw)"

Allow me to correct you "once it was completed and perfected" What happened on that particular day that Allah said "today I have completed for you your religion and full filled my favours upon you". Is divine guidance only prophecy, just prophethood?

"Why didn't you hold on to the Progeny of the Holy Prophet (saw) when Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) deemed those who refuse to pay Zakat kafir and said that they ought to be condemned by capital punishment"

I hold on to the Progeny of the Prophet s.a.w all the time and everytime. I don't have double standards like you. Now either accept that it's not necessary to prove everything from the Qur'an in black and white or prove to me from the Qur'an that Islamic governments have the right to force people to hand over Zakah money to them. And if they don't then they are subject to capital punishment according to Shariah law.

"No you have not!  It was your supporting evidence so instead of being a weasel, tell us in what ways are mut'ah and misyaar similar.  After all, that is the claim your evidence made"

A malicious lie again. I asked something and you commented on it. Then I questioned you and you started jumping up and down over it. Basically you couldn't explain what you said. It's all there in black and white. Don't make a fool of yourself.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 07, 2019, 01:58:15 AM
I don't take you seriously.

Then stop engaging me in discussions.


Quote
I don't need to find anything. All I've seen from you is nothing but absolute negativity towards my faith and community.

With your eyes closed shut, I cannot show you the sun even if a hundred of them rise in the sky.  So enjoy being an ignorant fool.


Quote
Proved Imamah straight and direct from the Qur'an that Allah alone choses and selects Imams.

Are you saying you have demonstrated that which your scholars failed to do since day one?  That makes you superior to them and knowing how foolish you can be, I can only imagine how foolish your scholars are!


Quote
You want something from the Qur'an only then you produce something from the Qur'an only.

Fine display of your foolishness.  Zakat is in the Qur'an and rejecting it is like rejecting a part of the Qur'an and therefore the entire Qur'an.  The hadith clarifies what the Qur'an establishes, i.e., Zakat.

In the case of Imamah, neither the Qur'an nor Sunnah establishes it and the fake "Sonnah" transmitted by Kufans - which establishes it - also claims that there aren't 313 men in your midst for the scared one to come out.


Quote
First of all can you prove this from the Qur'an. Just showing you your double stance and standard. Secondly Saqifa was an incident. It wasn't a public gathering or event which was organised were all parties concerned gathered/assembled to choose/select a leader to govern the Muslim Ummah and it's affairs. Only three Muhajirs rushed there to stop from something terrible from happening. They actually didn't go there to stop something terrible from happening but to stop leadership from slipping away from them.

All that bark but no bite.  Your first "infallible" Imam (ra) accepted leadership as per the foundations laid down during Saqeefah and he even referenced it as a legitimate methodology in Nahjul Balagha.


Quote
Prove your claim to me that the first and second, accepted leadership based on the guidelines laid down in Saqifa.

Are you serious?  How was Imam Ali (ra) named the Fourth Caliph?  Divine Intervention?  Or did the people come after him since he was the most deserved after Uthman (ra)?

Also, as I alluded to earlier, he clearly said, "Verily, the people who payed allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have payed allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them.  So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it.  And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar.  So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah.  If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people.  If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers.  And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him."  (Nahjul Balagha Letter 6)

Go ahead, deny your own first "infallible" Imam (ra), like you rejected your sixth "infallible" Imam (ra), lol.


Quote
Those who killed Hussain, his family members, his relatives, companions and supporters were companions of the Prophet s.a.w or their offsprings

The army of 5000 men were Sahaba (ra) and their offspring?  Ya jaahil, who moved the capital to Kufa?  The other Sahaba (ra) or Imam Ali (ra)?  It was Imam Ali (ra) who did so and hence, it was his "supporters" that resided mainly in Kufa.  The same "supporters" whom he admonished in Nahjul Balagha, the same supporters (or cut from the same cloth) who duped Imam Hassan (ra) and later assassinated Imam Hussain (ra).


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Once again what are the principles, the rules and regulations the guidelines on selecting a leader after Muhammad s.a.w by means of consultation.

Once again, I quote your own first "infallible" Imam (ra) for you.

"And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar.  So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah".


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I hold on to the Progeny of the Prophet s.a.w all the time and everytime

I have a feeling you will soon oppose Imam Ali (ra) on electing a leader much like you opposed Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (ra) on the punishment for those who refuse to pay Zakat.


Quote
Now either accept that it's not necessary to prove everything from the Qur'an in black and white or prove to me from the Qur'an that Islamic governments have the right to force people to hand over Zakah money to them

You clearly do not understand the difference between established beliefs and their clarification in Qur'an and Sunnah AND misguidance which has no root in Qur'an and Sunnah.  Zakat is the former; Imamah is the latter (in case you still don't understand).


Quote
A malicious lie again. I asked something and you commented on it. Then I questioned you and you started jumping up and down over it. Basically you couldn't explain what you said. It's all there in black and white. Don't make a fool of yourself.

All this back-n-forth because the dimwit you are, you did not read your own evidence properly. 
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2019, 01:16:54 AM
Then stop engaging me in discussions.


With your eyes closed shut, I cannot show you the sun even if a hundred of them rise in the sky.  So enjoy being an ignorant fool.


Are you saying you have demonstrated that which your scholars failed to do since day one?  That makes you superior to them and knowing how foolish you can be, I can only imagine how foolish your scholars are!


Fine display of your foolishness.  Zakat is in the Qur'an and rejecting it is like rejecting a part of the Qur'an and therefore the entire Qur'an.  The hadith clarifies what the Qur'an establishes, i.e., Zakat.

In the case of Imamah, neither the Qur'an nor Sunnah establishes it and the fake "Sonnah" transmitted by Kufans - which establishes it - also claims that there aren't 313 men in your midst for the scared one to come out.


All that bark but no bite.  Your first "infallible" Imam (ra) accepted leadership as per the foundations laid down during Saqeefah and he even referenced it as a legitimate methodology in Nahjul Balagha.


Are you serious?  How was Imam Ali (ra) named the Fourth Caliph?  Divine Intervention?  Or did the people come after him since he was the most deserved after Uthman (ra)?

Also, as I alluded to earlier, he clearly said, "Verily, the people who payed allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have payed allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it.  And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar.  So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah.  If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people.  If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers.  And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him."  (Nahjul Balagha Letter 6)

Go ahead, deny your own first "infallible" Imam (ra), like you rejected your sixth "infallible" Imam (ra), lol.


The army of 5000 men were Sahaba (ra) and their offspring?  Ya jaahil, who moved the capital to Kufa?  The other Sahaba (ra) or Imam Ali (ra)?  It was Imam Ali (ra) who did so and hence, it was his "supporters" that resided mainly in Kufa.  The same "supporters" whom he admonished in Nahjul Balagha, the same supporters (or cut from the same cloth) who duped Imam Hassan (ra) and later assassinated Imam Hussain (ra).


Once again, I quote your own first "infallible" Imam (ra) for you.

"And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar.  So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah".


I have a feeling you will soon oppose Imam Ali (ra) on electing a leader much like you opposed Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (ra) on the punishment for those who refuse to pay Zakat.


You clearly do not understand the difference between established beliefs and their clarification in Qur'an and Sunnah AND misguidance which has no root in Qur'an and Sunnah.  Zakat is the former; Imamah is the latter (in case you still don't understand).


All this back-n-forth because the dimwit you are, you did not read your own evidence properly.

"Then stop engaging me in discussions"

I'm not engaging you in anything. As long as you talk about my faith, community and people in a wrong and negative way I won't sit and stay silent.

"With your eyes closed shut, I cannot show you the sun even if a hundred of them rise in the sky.  So enjoy being an ignorant fool"

Now that's the talk of an ignorant fool. Can't explain yourself when asked then come out with silly examples and comments. You haven't changed.

"Are you saying you have demonstrated that which your scholars failed to do since day one?  That makes you superior to them and knowing how foolish you can be, I can only imagine how foolish your scholars are"

Now this is the talk of an arrogant individual. Start a thread and discuss what you want. That's the way to do it.

"Fine display of your foolishness.  Zakat is in the Qur'an and rejecting it is like rejecting a part of the Qur'an and therefore the entire Qur'an.  The hadith clarifies what the Qur'an establishes, i.e., Zakat"

Stop being a fool and then hiding behind your foolishness. Prove to me from the Qur'an that if you refuse to pay Zakah or hand in the Zakah money to the ruler of the time then you have committed a serious crime and by Shariah law you face the death penalty. That's what I asked you. I don't know why you're bringing in irrelevant stuff to this thread.

"In the case of Imamah, neither the Qur'an nor Sunnah establishes it"

Imamah is clear in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Your Caliphate isn't based on Qur'an or sunnah.

"and the fake "Sonnah" transmitted by Kufans"

The Kufans were put under siege by your Caliphate. A ruthless individual by the name of Ubaydallah ibn Ziyaad was made governor of Kufa just to terrorise and crush them. Well that's your Caliphate there for you. That's what your Caliphate brought.

"which establishes it - also claims that there aren't 313 men in your midst for the scared one to come out"

Sarcastic comments don't bother me. It just shows your weakness.

"All that bark but no bite.  Your first "infallible" Imam (ra) accepted leadership as per the foundations laid down during Saqeefah and he even referenced it as a legitimate methodology in Nahjul Balagha"

What were the foundations for Caliphate that were laid down in Saqifa. You make claims but can't back them. You say things but can't explain.

"Are you serious?  How was Imam Ali (ra) named the Fourth Caliph?  Divine Intervention?  Or did the people come after him since he was the most deserved after Uthman (ra)?"

You tell me how he was named the 4th Caliph. Care to explain. Why was he the most deserved after Usman. Why not before him.


"Verily, the people who payed allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have payed allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them"

What are those principles?

"So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah.  If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people"

So those who went against this decision (opposed the 4th Caliph) were do you put them.

"All this back-n-forth because the dimwit you are, you did not read your own evidence properly"

You're the one being a dimwit going back n forth then bringing in irrelevant stuff. Because you say something then you can't explain it. You make a claim but can't back it. That's all you.

"You clearly do not understand the difference between established beliefs and their clarification in Qur'an and Sunnah AND misguidance which has no root in Qur'an and Sunnah.  Zakat is the former; Imamah is the latter (in case you still don't understand)"

Oh I clearly understand. Be it former or latter or what ever else, you demand then be ready and prepared to deliver. Either use the Qur'an only then discuss by that. Set your principles first then discuss. Don't discuss then Start rearranging principles as you go along

"I have a feeling you will soon oppose Imam Ali (ra) on electing a leader much like you opposed Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (ra) on the punishment for those who refuse to pay Zakat"

Don't go by feelings, go by facts and principles. Prove it from the Quran. Or accept the fact that it's not necessary that everything has to be in and from the Quran and exactly the way you want it.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2019, 11:46:45 AM
I live in the UK and we didn't "miss" this documentary. It was discussed amongst the community here when it came out and marrying with the intention to divorce just so you can get back with your previous spouse is apparently a major sin. This is in contrast to mutah which is openly accepted in the shia community and seen as a noble act.

Well you started this thread then why didn't you mention it? 😊 See what I mean, your intentions are absolutely clear. 😊 My job is to expose your I'll intentions and your propagandist behaviour. 😊 That's all you guys are about.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 10, 2019, 01:41:17 AM
Well you started this thread then why didn't you mention it? 😊 See what I mean, your intentions are absolutely clear. 😊 My job is to expose your I'll intentions and your propagandist behaviour. 😊 That's all you guys are about.

Because it's unrelated to this thread. This thread is specifically about a mutah documentary by the BBC, not about every single muslim related documentary the BBC have ever produced.

My intentions are fairly clear - to destroy shiaism step by step lol. What's to expose, it's not like I hide it.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 10, 2019, 11:20:43 PM
I'm not engaging you in anything. As long as you talk about my faith, community and people in a wrong and negative way I won't sit and stay silent.

Am I the only one to see the contradiction in this statement?  So as long as I talk about Shiaism, you will speak up and therefore, engage me.


Quote
Now this is the talk of an arrogant individual. Start a thread and discuss what you want. That's the way to do it.

Open a thread to beat a dead horse?  If you, or any Shia, had a Qur'anic verse in favor of Imamah, it would have been made known without the need for a lengthy discussion.  It is the lack of such a verse that compels you to get into verbal gymnastics, therefore, a whole new discussion thread.


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Prove to me from the Qur'an that if you refuse to pay Zakah or hand in the Zakah money to the ruler of the time then you have committed a serious crime and by Shariah law you face the death penalty.

Now that you have renounced your 6th "infallible" Imam (ra) - and renouncing one of them is like renouncing them all - why not become a Sunni?  Let's go, bismillah!


Quote
Imamah is clear in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Your Caliphate isn't based on Qur'an or sunnah.

If our Caliphate system is not as per the Qur'an and Sunnah, your first and second "infallible" Imams (ra) accepted leadership as per its principles.  Now you have renounced three out of the twelve, lol.


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The Kufans were put under siege by your Caliphate. A ruthless individual by the name of Ubaydallah ibn Ziyaad was made governor of Kufa just to terrorise and crush them. Well that's your Caliphate there for you. That's what your Caliphate brought.

What does that have to do with anything?  My point was that Kufans were a treacherous bunch and their entire treachery has been the foundations for your madhhab.


Quote
Sarcastic comments don't bother me. It just shows your weakness.

Sorry, we are not the ones to fail to produce 313 men.  If such a remark hurts you, you have clear issues with your own madhhab so as I said before, why not become Sunni?


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What were the foundations for Caliphate that were laid down in Saqifa. You make claims but can't back them. You say things but can't explain.

lol, so you had to renounce Nahjul Balagha as well!  Keep it coming!


Quote
You tell me how he was named the 4th Caliph. Care to explain. Why was he the most deserved after Usman. Why not before him.

I will let you ponder over these points but will tell you one thing: you could not disprove my point.  Instead your comment is an indirect criticism of Imam Ali (ra).


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So those who went against this decision (opposed the 4th Caliph) were do you put them.

That is not my point of contention.  My point was that Imam Ali (ra) upheld what was laid down in Saqeefah and since you blame everything on Saqeefah, you have made your own first "infallible" Imam (ra) a partner in the Saqeefah "crime".


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Don't go by feelings, go by facts and principles. Prove it from the Quran. Or accept the fact that it's not necessary that everything has to be in and from the Quran and exactly the way you want it.

Seeing how you have deflected the letter of Imam Ali (ra), I think we can safely say that I go by facts and fact of the matter is that you have distanced yourself from you first, second and sixth "infallible" Imams (ra).
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 11, 2019, 12:07:20 AM
Am I the only one to see the contradiction in this statement?  So as long as I talk about Shiaism, you will speak up and therefore, engage me.


Open a thread to beat a dead horse?  If you, or any Shia, had a Qur'anic verse in favor of Imamah, it would have been made known without the need for a lengthy discussion.  It is the lack of such a verse that compels you to get into verbal gymnastics, therefore, a whole new discussion thread.


Now that you have renounced your 6th "infallible" Imam (ra) - and renouncing one of them is like renouncing them all - why not become a Sunni?  Let's go, bismillah!


If our Caliphate system is not as per the Qur'an and Sunnah, your first and second "infallible" Imams (ra) accepted leadership as per its principles.  Now you have renounced three out of the twelve, lol.


What does that have to do with anything?  My point was that Kufans were a treacherous bunch and their entire treachery has been the foundations for your madhhab.


Sorry, we are not the ones to fail to produce 313 men.  If such a remark hurts you, you have clear issues with your own madhhab so as I said before, why not become Sunni?


lol, so you had to renounce Nahjul Balagha as well!  Keep it coming!


I will let you ponder over these points but will tell you one thing: you could not disprove my point.  Instead your comment is an indirect criticism of Imam Ali (ra).


That is not my point of contention.  My point was that Imam Ali (ra) upheld what was laid down in Saqeefah and since you blame everything on Saqeefah, you have made your own first "infallible" Imam (ra) a partner in the Saqeefah "crime".


Seeing how you have deflected the letter of Imam Ali (ra), I think we can safely say that I go by facts and fact of the matter is that you have distanced yourself from you first, second and sixth "infallible" Imams (ra).

"So as long as I talk about Shiaism"

You talk about Shiaism unjustly and unfairly. You speak with hatred and grudge. You say things which you can't backup and support. And you speak as though your looking for what ever you can find against Shias and make them and their faith look bad. Just as those who always speak negative and bad Islam. But when challenged their stance is the same as yours.

"If you, or any Shia, had a Qur'anic verse in favor of Imamah"

Discussed and proven Imamah clearly from the Qur'an. It seems like you have a memory laps. Or you love to play around. Start a thread and I'll take it up there to refresh your memory and stance once again.

"What does that have to do with anything?  My point was that Kufans were a treacherous bunch and their entire treachery has been the foundations for your madhhab"

Kufans weren't a treacherous bunch and neither does my madhhab depend on them. They were put under siege just like the Palestinians and Kashmiris but by your Caliphate.

"Sorry, we are not the ones to fail to produce 313 men"

You failed the Prophet s.a.w miserably by following those who said and believed that the book of Allah is with us, the book of Allah is sufficient for us 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 11, 2019, 01:37:54 AM
You talk about Shiaism unjustly and unfairly. You speak with hatred and grudge.

*sad music playing on a tiny violin*


Quote
Discussed and proven Imamah clearly from the Qur'an. 

So you claim to have accomplished that which neither your scholars nor your 12th Imam could accomplish.  Quote the verse please and prove your scholars' and 12th Imam's incompetence, lol.                 


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Kufans weren't a treacherous bunch and neither does my madhhab depend on them.

Zurara ibn Ayyan, Abu Basir, Hisham ibn Hakam, Hisham bin Salim.....between those four Kufans lie your beliefs and practices.


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You failed the Prophet s.a.w miserably by following those who said and believed that the book of Allah is with us, the book of Allah is sufficient for us 😊

And your first "infallible" Imam (ra), who was also present in the room, lifted not a single muscle to intervene and apply corrective course of action, hahaha!
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 11, 2019, 05:47:05 PM
Stick to the thread. Stop bringing in irrelevant stuff. Have the mods and admins given you a free hand to put on a show. Or do they go to sleep when it comes to people like you few.

Lol crying again, if you can throw in IRRELEVANT stuff so can I.........do stop crying.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2019, 03:37:43 AM
*sad music playing on a tiny violin*


So you claim to have accomplished that which neither your scholars nor your 12th Imam could accomplish.  Quote the verse please and prove your scholars' and 12th Imam's incompetence, lol.                 


Zurara ibn Ayyan, Abu Basir, Hisham ibn Hakam, Hisham bin Salim.....between those four Kufans lie your beliefs and practices.


And your first "infallible" Imam (ra), who was also present in the room, lifted not a single muscle to intervene and apply corrective course of action, hahaha!

"sad music playing on a tiny violin"

I thought music was haram according to your bunch 😊

"So you claim to have accomplished that which neither your scholars nor your 12th Imam could accomplish. Quote the verse please and prove your scholars' and 12th Imam's incompetence"

This is what you said in post #73. "If you, or any Shia, had a Qur'anic verse in favor of Imamah"

Your words once again "in favour of Imamah".

Can I prove Imamah from the Qur'an.

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: “I will make thee an IMAM to the Nations.” He pleaded: “And also (Imams) from my offspring!” He answered: “But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.”
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2019, 04:12:11 AM
Muslim 720 says can I prove Imamah from the Qur'an.

Qur'an (2:124).

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you an IMAM for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

Qur'an (32:24).

"And we made of them IMAMS to guide by our command for they were patient, and they were certain of our clear signs”.

Below are the two verses which absolutely and completely destroy Saqifa.

"And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs”
(28:68)

“And it behaves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter” (33:36)
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2019, 04:36:51 AM
*sad music playing on a tiny violin*


So you claim to have accomplished that which neither your scholars nor your 12th Imam could accomplish.  Quote the verse please and prove your scholars' and 12th Imam's incompetence, lol.                 


Zurara ibn Ayyan, Abu Basir, Hisham ibn Hakam, Hisham bin Salim.....between those four Kufans lie your beliefs and practices.


And your first "infallible" Imam (ra), who was also present in the room, lifted not a single muscle to intervene and apply corrective course of action, hahaha!

"And your first "infallible" Imam (ra), who was also present in the room, lifted not a single muscle to intervene and apply corrective course of action, hahaha!"

You can't hide the intentions or save Umar and his clan for their mischief in front of the Prophet s.a.w and how they objected, obstructed and opposed him. Have a laugh at this.

"Zurara ibn Ayyan, Abu Basir, Hisham ibn Hakam, Hisham bin Salim.....between those four Kufans lie your beliefs and practices"

The Kufans were put under siege by the governor of Kufa on orders of your calipha Yazeed Ibne Muawiya. My beliefs are with Hussain, his family, friends, supporters and followers. Yours lie with the Caliphate.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 13, 2019, 04:14:51 AM
Muslim 720 says can I prove Imamah from the Qur'an.

Qur'an (2:124).

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you an IMAM for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

Qur'an (32:24).

"And we made of them IMAMS to guide by our command for they were patient, and they were certain of our clear signs”.

Below are the two verses which absolutely and completely destroy Saqifa.

"And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs”
(28:68)

“And it behaves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter” (33:36)

Same recycled argument, lol.

As usual, we can concede miles and still the foundations of our religion will remain intact whereas Shias cannot concede a millimeter.  Also, when Shias present evidence for one of their beliefs, the same evidence almost always negates one or more of their other beliefs.

So, in regards to verse pronouncing Ibrahim's (asws) alleged "Imamah":

1.  We did not ask you to quote the word "imam" in the Qur'an.  But since you went for it, please account for the following verse, "And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous".  (Surah Qassas 41-42)

2.  If Ibrahim (asws) was a prophet who was elevated to being an imam then he - like the Holy Prophet (saw) - is above all your Imams (ra).  Therefore, the Shi'i belief that Imams (ra) are above all Prophets (asws) except the Holy Prophet (saw) is incorrect, in fact refuted by their own evidence.


Quote
The Kufans were put under siege by the governor of Kufa on orders of your calipha Yazeed Ibne Muawiya. My beliefs are with Hussain, his family, friends, supporters and followers. Yours lie with the Caliphate.

I proved to you that the foundations of your religion were laid down by Kufans and this is how - IN VAIN - you tried to counter it, lol.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 13, 2019, 08:08:44 PM
Same recycled argument, lol.

As usual, we can concede miles and still the foundations of our religion will remain intact whereas Shias cannot concede a millimeter.  Also, when Shias present evidence for one of their beliefs, the same evidence almost always negates one or more of their other beliefs.

So, in regards to verse pronouncing Ibrahim's (asws) alleged "Imamah":

1.  We did not ask you to quote the word "imam" in the Qur'an.  But since you went for it, please account for the following verse, "And we made them Imams who call to the fire and on the day of Qiyamat they shall not be assisted. And we caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of Qiyamat they shall be of those made to appear hideous".  (Surah Qassas 41-42)

2.  If Ibrahim (asws) was a prophet who was elevated to being an imam then he - like the Holy Prophet (saw) - is above all your Imams (ra).  Therefore, the Shi'i belief that Imams (ra) are above all Prophets (asws) except the Holy Prophet (saw) is incorrect, in fact refuted by their own evidence.


I proved to you that the foundations of your religion were laid down by Kufans and this is how - IN VAIN - you tried to counter it, lol.

"Same recycled argument, lol."

What do you expect. Same old question over and over again.

"As usual, we can concede miles and still the foundations of our religion will remain intact"

The foundations of your religion have been wobbly and shaky from day one. Saqifa is the foundation. Something terrible was about to happen there. And three Muhajir sneaked off there without informing others. Otherwise the matter would have slipped out of their hand.

"Also, when Shias present evidence for one of their beliefs, the same evidence almost always negates one or more of their other beliefs"

FOR EXAMPLE? Everytime I ask you for an.example or explanation about something or ask you to provide evidence to something or to back up and claim you Start going weak at the knees.

"So, in regards to verse pronouncing Ibrahim's (asws) alleged "Imamah":

You kept pestering me to prove Imamah from the Qur'an. And I just mentioned something just to silence you. If you want to discuss anything irrelevant or different to this thread then start a thread and I'll be more than happy to deal with your propaganda.

"I proved to you that the foundations of your religion were laid down by Kufans and this is how - IN VAIN - you tried to counter it, lol"

You haven't backed or proven anything. You can't even explain anything. You're a complete failure and you know that. Kufans were put under siege by your Caliphate. And the foundations of my faith and belief are Qur'an and Sunnah. Your belief and faith is all over the place.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 13, 2019, 10:21:53 PM
Here's another documentary by the BBC which you guys have missed.

https://youtu.be/TlvNMlIMWhw

Anything to say about this documentary. Mythbuster Muslim 720, gone into hiding.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 14, 2019, 03:46:15 AM
What do you expect. Same old question over and over again.

So you deem misquoting the Qur'an as a reliable way to answer a question you cannot answer?  In other words, you can lie upon the Qur'an to substantiate your own lies and mythical beliefs.


Quote
The foundations of your religion have been wobbly and shaky from day one. Saqifa is the foundation.

Says who?  Your scholars born out of mut'ah?  Or your Kufan ideological ancestors who furnished your beliefs?


Quote
Something terrible was about to happen there. And three Muhajir sneaked off there without informing others. Otherwise the matter would have slipped out of their hand.

At the end of the day, Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) became Caliphs in accordance to the principles laid down at Saqeefah and none of them did anything you say they would have done if they were elected first and second.  In fact, coming at fourth, Imam Ali (ra) was leader to a larger nation with more strength and resources, courtesy of the first three (ra) who spent their time spreading Islam rather than getting caught up in the treachery of so-called "supporters" or "partisans".


Quote
FOR EXAMPLE? Everytime I ask you for an.example or explanation about something or ask you to provide evidence to something or to back up and claim you Start going weak at the knees.

No, I think you are going blind.

"If Ibrahim (asws) was a prophet who was elevated to being an imam then he - like the Holy Prophet (saw) - is above all your Imams (ra).  Therefore, the Shi'i belief that Imams (ra) are above all Prophets (asws) except the Holy Prophet (saw) is incorrect, in fact refuted by their own evidence."

Still need a magnifying glass?


Quote
You kept pestering me to prove Imamah from the Qur'an.

You showed the word "Imam" in the Qur'an with nothing being said about your ideological concept of "Imamah".  Furthermore, I showed you how the same word can lead many to hellfire.  Therefore, you cannot make a positive case for a word which is used for good and evil leaders.


Quote
You haven't backed or proven anything.

Were Abu Basir, Zurara, Hisham bin Hakam and Hisham bin Salem not Kufans?  SubhanAllah!


Quote
Anything to say about this documentary. Mythbuster Muslim 720, gone into hiding.

Going into hiding?  We don't follow the "Sunnah" of your 12th imaginary! 

Look at what the description of the documentary says: "The controversial practice, known as halala, is believed by a small minority of Muslims to be the only way a divorced woman can get back with her husband after a triple talaq - an instant divorce where a man says 'talaq' three times to his wife".

Hence, it is not a belief held by majority or all of Muslims.  Furthermore, unlike your hundreds of ahaadith praising mut'ah, here is what our books say regarding halala.

Abu Dawood (2076) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah has cursed the muhallil and the muhallal lahu.”

Ibn Majaah (1936) narrated from ‘Uqbah ibn ‘Aamir (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Shall I not tell you of a borrowed billy-goat.”  They said, Yes, O Messenger of Allaah.  He said, “He is al-muhallil. May Allaah curse al-muhallil and al-muhallal lahu.”

So I would thank the folks at BBC to expose those who practice this shameful practice.  It is time for these people to realize that they are upon extreme misguidance.

Now the question is this: can you condemn mut'ah?  And if you cannot, why are you upset that BBC produced a documentary on an act considered to be "Sunnah" by your sect?
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 14, 2019, 04:30:13 PM
Anything to say about this documentary. Mythbuster Muslim 720, gone into hiding.

Yes......we don’t practice it nor do we follow it .....it’s not sunnah you dimwit🙂

MUTA according to shiites is sunna!!!

All these posts and you cannot even defend a Shiite sunnah.......that speaks volumes about your sect.

Just like imamah you haven’t a SINGLE verse supporting your Imamate ideology.

Ibrahim as after being a prophet is PROMOTED to imam
Ali ra and ahlubaith ra are PROMOTED without being prophets

You confused soul😉
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 15, 2019, 10:50:21 PM
Yes......we don’t practice it nor do we follow it .....it’s not sunnah you dimwit🙂

MUTA according to shiites is sunna!!!

All these posts and you cannot even defend a Shiite sunnah.......that speaks volumes about your sect.

Just like imamah you haven’t a SINGLE verse supporting your Imamate ideology.

Ibrahim as after being a prophet is PROMOTED to imam
Ali ra and ahlubaith ra are PROMOTED without being prophets

You confused soul😉

Imamah has been proven straight and direct from the Qur'an. No need for counter arguments and excuses. The Prophet s.a.w banned Mu'tah, something that is mentioned and allowed in the Qur'an. Justify the ban by giving a clear reason and explanation. Oops you don't have one 😆😅😂
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 16, 2019, 05:25:29 PM
Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) said:

“O Ansar! You deserve all the qualities that you have attributed to yourselves, but this question (of Caliphate) is only for the Quraish”

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817)

Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) explained:

“(O Ansar) you are our brethren in Islam and our partners in religion…but the Arabs will not submit themselves except to this clan of Quraish…we (the Quraish) are in the center among the Muslims with respect to our position…”

(The History of al-Tabari, Volume 9, p.193)

Now tell me from the above where do you see consultation?

In the first reference you hear Abu Bakr saying;

"but this question (of Caliphate) is only for the Quraish”

Is this consultation? Or tribal?

In the second reference you will hear Abu Bakr saying;

"but the Arabs will not submit themselves except to this clan of Quraish"

Is this consultation? Or is it tribal?

Where exactly are those principles Muslim 720 talks about that were laid down in Saqifa? Don't come back with ifs and buts or with counter arguments.

How did Abu Bakr know about this “superiority” of the Quraysh? Qur’an and its Bringer, Muhammad, never said that the tribe of Quraysh was superior to anyone or that it had any superiority at all.

In fact, it were the Quraysh who were the most die-hard of all the idolaters of Arabia. They clutched their idols, and they fought against Muhammad and Islam, with cannibalistic fury, for more than twenty years. The Ansar, on the other hand, accepted Islam spontaneously and voluntarily. They entered Islam en bloc and without demur.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 16, 2019, 05:34:04 PM
Now tell me from the above where do you see consultation?

If you are that dumb, and we know you are, then Allah (swt) help and guide you.

You are posting reports about a conversation between Abu Bakr (ra) at Saqeefah.  Is that not consultation?  How do you consult?  By farting, I guess!  Maybe that is why you fog up each discussion thread but for normal people, consultation happens in the form of a conversation.


Quote
Where exactly are those principles Muslim 720 talks about that were laid down in Saqifa?

Hold on, mut'ah boy!  You asked my opinion on the documentary regarding halala.  I gave you my opinion and asked you a question.  Please respond to it before you pose more questions.

I will copy-paste it here: "Now the question is this: can you condemn mut'ah?  And if you cannot, why are you upset that BBC produced a documentary on an act considered to be 'Sunnah' by your sect?"
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 16, 2019, 06:14:54 PM
If you are that dumb, and we know you are, then Allah (swt) help and guide you.

You are posting reports about a conversation between Abu Bakr (ra) at Saqeefah.  Is that not consultation?  How do you consult?  By farting, I guess!  Maybe that is why you fog up each discussion thread but for normal people, consultation happens in the form of a conversation.


Hold on, mut'ah boy!  You asked my opinion on the documentary regarding halala.  I gave you my opinion and asked you a question.  Please respond to it before you pose more questions.

I will copy-paste it here: "Now the question is this: can you condemn mut'ah?  And if you cannot, why are you upset that BBC produced a documentary on an act considered to be 'Sunnah' by your sect?"

"If you are that dumb, and we know you are, then Allah (swt) help and guide you"

Stop being and playing arrogant. You know it's a lost argument for you.

"Maybe that is why you fog up each discussion thread"

You're the one who has repeatedly brought in irrelevant stuff to the thread.

"You are posting reports about a conversation between Abu Bakr (ra) at Saqeefah.  Is that not consultation?  How do you consult?"


Where is consultation with in Saqifa? Where are the principles laid down which you mentioned.  That isn't consultation but tribalism. Consultation is not between a handful of people without the vast majority present or without them knowing about it. Stop being and playing arrogant.

"By farting, I guess!"

That's Saqifa for you.

"Hold on, mut'ah boy!"

Go on halala and misyaar boy.

"You asked my opinion on the documentary regarding halala.  I gave you my opinion and asked you a question.  Please respond to it before you pose more questions"

Here's my response. Why are you boys so quick to pick up, post and try to put down an entire community on a documentary from the BBC when there are other documentaries available. Do you choose to play blind or dumb when it comes the other way. Or are you just prejudice when it comes to the Shias.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 16, 2019, 07:01:05 PM
I live in the UK and we didn't "miss" this documentary. It was discussed amongst the community here when it came out and marrying with the intention to divorce just so you can get back with your previous spouse is apparently a major sin. This is in contrast to mutah which is openly accepted in the shia community and seen as a noble act.

And would you like to mention the sect and community that believe in and practice halala. Those scholars who preech and practice halala which sect are they from. Care to point this out as well since you're at it. 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 16, 2019, 07:52:41 PM
Where is consultation with in Saqifa?

I am curious to know what you understand by consultation.


Quote
Where are the principles laid down which you mentioned.

I did not lay down any principles.  I only reminded you that whatever you consider to Saqeefah to be, Imam Ali (ra) became the Commander of Faithful based on those very principles (whatever hateful ideas you have in your mind in regards to Saqeefah).  Imam Hassan (ra) as well!


Quote
Consultation is not between a handful of people without the vast majority present or without them knowing about it.

Let us assume that we (Sunnis) are wrong in saying that it was "consultation".  It still does not shake the core of our beliefs.  You, on the other hand, cannot account for any of the following:

1.  Imam Ali (ra) - and by extension Imam Hassan (ra) and Imam Hussain (ra) being represented by their father - gave bayyah to Abu Bakr (ra).

2.  Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) became Caliphs in accordance to what was put in place at Saqeefah, not by Divine Election.

3.  Neither Imam Ali (ra) nor Imam Hassan (ra) did anything as per your beliefs.  On the contrary, they maintained status quo!  They never reclaimed Fadak, they did not speak ill of any of the first three (ra) and they certainly did nothing to undo the "evils" that the first three (ra) introduced in the ummah.


Quote
That's Saqifa for you.

As per Nahjul Balagha, Imam Ali (ra) accepted leadership on the basis of farts rather than Imamah.  Certainly proves Imamah is weaker than fart so thank you for your admission.  You have finally defined Imamah as we have been doing so....inferior to fart, lol.


Quote
Here's my response. Why are you boys so quick to pick up, post and try to put down an entire community on a documentary from the BBC when there are other documentaries available.

That is not an answer; you have only posed another question to side-step mine so here it is again: "Now the question is this: can you condemn mut'ah?  And if you cannot, why are you upset that BBC produced a documentary on an act considered to be 'Sunnah' by your sect?"


Quote
And would you like to mention the sect and community that believe in and practice halala. Those scholars who preech and practice halala which sect are they from. Care to point this out as well since you're at it.

I have done better!  I have condemned them all, even if they were my blood relatives, and our condemnation is in line with our books.  I pity you!  You uphold mut'ah but can't stomach the fact that there is a documentary about it.  Unless you believe that an act of "sunnah" can be shameful!
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 16, 2019, 08:49:54 PM
I am curious to know what you understand by consultation.


I did not lay down any principles.  I only reminded you that whatever you consider to Saqeefah to be, Imam Ali (ra) became the Commander of Faithful based on those very principles (whatever hateful ideas you have in your mind in regards to Saqeefah).  Imam Hassan (ra) as well!


Let us assume that we (Sunnis) are wrong in saying that it was "consultation".  It still does not shake the core of our beliefs.  You, on the other hand, cannot account for any of the following:

1.  Imam Ali (ra) - and by extension Imam Hassan (ra) and Imam Hussain (ra) being represented by their father - gave bayyah to Abu Bakr (ra).

2.  Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) became Caliphs in accordance to what was put in place at Saqeefah, not by Divine Election.

3.  Neither Imam Ali (ra) nor Imam Hassan (ra) did anything as per your beliefs.  On the contrary, they maintained status quo!  They never reclaimed Fadak, they did not speak ill of any of the first three (ra) and they certainly did nothing to undo the "evils" that the first three (ra) introduced in the ummah.


As per Nahjul Balagha, Imam Ali (ra) accepted leadership on the basis of farts rather than Imamah.  Certainly proves Imamah is weaker than fart so thank you for your admission.  You have finally defined Imamah as we have been doing so....inferior to fart, lol.


That is not an answer; you have only posed another question to side-step mine so here it is again: "Now the question is this: can you condemn mut'ah?  And if you cannot, why are you upset that BBC produced a documentary on an act considered to be 'Sunnah' by your sect?"


I have done better!  I have condemned them all, even if they were my blood relatives, and our condemnation is in line with our books.  I pity you!  You uphold mut'ah but can't stomach the fact that there is a documentary about it.  Unless you believe that an act of "sunnah" can be shameful!

"I have done better!  I have condemned them all, even if they were my blood relatives, and our condemnation is in line with our books"

You condemning it doesn't make any difference. Halala is a part of the Sunni belief and faith. It's important by your scholars who not just preech but practice it and go further by helping woman out in your community.


"I pity you!  You uphold mut'ah but can't stomach the fact that there is a documentary about it.  Unless you believe that an act of "sunnah" can be shameful!"

I uphold mut'ah because it's absolutely crystal clear in the Qur'an. And we don't believe the Prophet s.a.w actually banned it. Neither can you justify the ban with a shred of evidence. I don't use the halaal documentary by the BBC to tarnish the reputation of your faith and community. Like you and your kind are always ready and willing to do with us.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 17, 2019, 12:17:27 AM
I am curious to know what you understand by consultation.


I did not lay down any principles.  I only reminded you that whatever you consider to Saqeefah to be, Imam Ali (ra) became the Commander of Faithful based on those very principles (whatever hateful ideas you have in your mind in regards to Saqeefah).  Imam Hassan (ra) as well!


Let us assume that we (Sunnis) are wrong in saying that it was "consultation".  It still does not shake the core of our beliefs.  You, on the other hand, cannot account for any of the following:

1.  Imam Ali (ra) - and by extension Imam Hassan (ra) and Imam Hussain (ra) being represented by their father - gave bayyah to Abu Bakr (ra).

2.  Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) became Caliphs in accordance to what was put in place at Saqeefah, not by Divine Election.

3.  Neither Imam Ali (ra) nor Imam Hassan (ra) did anything as per your beliefs.  On the contrary, they maintained status quo!  They never reclaimed Fadak, they did not speak ill of any of the first three (ra) and they certainly did nothing to undo the "evils" that the first three (ra) introduced in the ummah.


As per Nahjul Balagha, Imam Ali (ra) accepted leadership on the basis of farts rather than Imamah.  Certainly proves Imamah is weaker than fart so thank you for your admission.  You have finally defined Imamah as we have been doing so....inferior to fart, lol.


That is not an answer; you have only posed another question to side-step mine so here it is again: "Now the question is this: can you condemn mut'ah?  And if you cannot, why are you upset that BBC produced a documentary on an act considered to be 'Sunnah' by your sect?"


I have done better!  I have condemned them all, even if they were my blood relatives, and our condemnation is in line with our books.  I pity you!  You uphold mut'ah but can't stomach the fact that there is a documentary about it.  Unless you believe that an act of "sunnah" can be shameful!

"I am curious to know what you understand by consultation"

What is consultation. What's the method and procedure. What are the principles, rules and regulations for consulting among yourselves to choose a leader a successor to Muhammad s.a.w. This is no joke like Saqifa. What were the principles that were laid down in Saqifa to select a leader for the Ummah. The gathering in Saqifa, was that a public assembly a public event where people gathered assembled to choose a leader. You know very well that you're caught out. What happened in Saqifa. What was said. Who gave the three Muhajirs to speak on this matter on behalf of others and without their consent and knowledge. Without informing them. You know Saqifa was the reason and foundation, the beginning of disaster for the Muslims. But they couldn't see it.

"Imam Ali (ra) became the Commander of Faithful based on those very principles"

WHAT WAS THOSE VERY PRINCIPLES.

"Let us assume that we (Sunnis) are wrong in saying that it was "consultation".  It still does not shake the core of our beliefs.  You, on the other hand, cannot account for any of the following"

You don't need to assume anything. It smashes the foundations of your belief and what you stand for. All this confrontational stance that you put up is to save and justify Saqifa. If Saqifa goes then the Shaykhain go followed by everything else.

"1.  Imam Ali (ra) - and by extension Imam Hassan (ra) and Imam Hussain (ra) being represented by their father - gave bayyah to Abu Bakr (ra)"

We don't believe nor accept that. Those who gained authority and got power did a lot of things and got a lot of things done in their favour. History was rewritten, hadiths were forged/tampered with. Later on those who got into authority and who had grudge grievances with the Ahle Baith and their offsprings boosted others against the Ahle Baith. Members of the Ahle Baith and their followers and supporters were persecuted and some went through character assassination. History is all there.

"Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) became Caliphs in accordance to what was put in place at Saqeefah, not by Divine Election"

What was put in place at Saqifa. It wasn't divine election nor was it consultation. It was tribal clash.

"Neither Imam Ali (ra) nor Imam Hassan (ra) did anything as per your beliefs.  On the contrary, they maintained status quo!"

They did everything they possibly could not to divide the Ummah and not let any harm come to Islam other the Muslims.

"They never reclaimed Fadak"

Authority and power is not for personal gain or vengeance. When members of the Ahle Baith gained authority they never took advantage of it to settle personal scores.

"they did not speak ill of any of the first three"

They never spoke I'll about anybody let alone the three. Speaking I'll wasn't part of their nature or character.

"and they certainly did nothing to undo the "evils" that the first three (ra) introduced in the ummah"

Ali passed on becoming the third Caliph. Because he refused to accept, follow and act on Seerah e Shaykhain. Why didn't Ali become the third Caliph of the Muslims.

"As per Nahjul Balagha, Imam Ali (ra) accepted leadership on the basis of farts rather than Imamah.  Certainly proves Imamah is weaker than fart so thank you for your admission.  You have finally defined Imamah as we have been doing so....inferior to fart, lol"

Jaahil and jahalath. That answers this.

"Now the question is this: can you condemn mut'ah?  And if you cannot, why are you upset that BBC produced a documentary on an act considered to be 'Sunnah' by your sect?"

I will not condemn something that is permissible and allowed in the Qur'an and what was most certainly practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. I will not condemn something that can't be justified that the Prophet s.a.w banned it. I most certainly condemn those who have misused and abuse it. Because there are a few bad beans in every tin or packet. But you can't hold the tin or packet responsible for those few bad beans. And I most certainly condemn those who hijack such matters to paint a bad picture of my faith and community. Definitely down with these propagandists.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 17, 2019, 03:40:59 PM
Nikah halala Urdu: نکاح حلالہ‎ (Also known as tahleel marriage) is a practice in which a woman, after being divorced by triple talaq, marries another man, consummates the marriage, and gets divorced again in order to be able to remarry her former husband..Nikah means marriage and halala means to make something halal, or permissible..This form of marriage is haram (forbidden) according to the hadith of Islamic prophet Muhammad..Nikah Halala is practiced by some Sunni Muslims, mainly in countries that recognise the triple talaq.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D_3p14hzTlmw&ved=2ahUKEwj3_9Xo27zmAhU3UBUIHRQiBScQt9IBMA96BAgMECg&usg=AOvVaw07UwczvYFMyu3admbNEK3q

Now what do we do here, do we do exactly the same as these anti shia propagandists  and use the above to try and tarnish the name of sunnis and start attacking the Sunni community over this. No. There is a clear difference between us and those who use the Sunni platform to launch strikes at us and those noble Sunnis who differ with them.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 19, 2019, 06:02:05 AM
You condemning it doesn't make any difference. Halala is a part of the Sunni belief and faith. It's important by your scholars who not just preech but practice it and go further by helping woman out in your community.

First of all, it is "preach" not "preech".  Secondly, I showed you more than one authentic report from the Holy Prophet (saw) in which halala is condemned along with its participants.  I know there is no Sunni scholar who preaches halala - just like there are no fathers for your born-out-of-mut'ah scholars - but anyone who supports it has gone against the Holy Prophet (saw) and therefore cannot be a representative of our school.


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I uphold mut'ah because it's absolutely crystal clear in the Qur'an. And we don't believe the Prophet s.a.w actually banned it. Neither can you justify the ban with a shred of evidence. I don't use the halaal documentary by the BBC to tarnish the reputation of your faith and community. Like you and your kind are always ready and willing to do with us.

The halala documentary did not tarnish our image.  It is an act of haraam, according to the Holy Prophet (saw), and if an Islamophobe presents me that documentary, I can refute his winded argument with three words: halala is haraam!  You, on the other hand, cannot do the same with mut'ah.  Since you consider it to be halaal, you'll have to dance around an Islamophobe's points.

It is interesting that you used the word "tarnish".  You are implicitly implying that the documentary on mut'ah is tarnishing your image so I find it ridiculous that something "crystal clear in the Qur'an" and a Prophetic tradition is "tarnishing" to your otherwise dirty image.


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You know Saqifa was the reason and foundation, the beginning of disaster for the Muslims.

Actually, post-Saqeefa, Islam spread like wildfire.  I don't know what disaster are you talking about except that there aren't 313 men among millions of Shias to help the scared one come out of hiding.


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WHAT WAS THOSE VERY PRINCIPLES

According to Nahjul Balagha, your first "infallible" Imam (ra) accepted the Caliphate based on those very principles.  Are you saying you do not even know how your first "infallible" Imam (ra) became the leader?  Shame! 


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We don't believe nor accept that. Those who gained authority and got power did a lot of things and got a lot of things done in their favour. History was rewritten, hadiths were forged/tampered with. Later on those who got into authority and who had grudge grievances with the Ahle Baith and their offsprings boosted others against the Ahle Baith. Members of the Ahle Baith and their followers and supporters were persecuted and some went through character assassination. History is all there.

So you reject that Imam Ali (ra) gave bayyah to Abu Bakr (ra) and later consented to the rule of Umar (ra) and Uthman (ra)?


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What was put in place at Saqifa. It wasn't divine election nor was it consultation. It was tribal clash.

According to Imam Ali (ra) in Nahjul Balagha, it was as per Allah's (swt) pleasure.  Burn!


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They did everything they possibly could not to divide the Ummah and not let any harm come to Islam other the Muslims.

Yet, according to you, the ummah failed, Imam Hussain (ra) was killed and Saqeefa has been the root of all problems.  Therefore, Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) failed, lol!


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Authority and power is not for personal gain or vengeance. When members of the Ahle Baith gained authority they never took advantage of it to settle personal scores.

Fadak was not personal vengeance but the right of Fatima (ra) and her children (ra).  Honestly, I am laughing out loud at you clutching at straws.


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They never spoke I'll about anybody let alone the three. Speaking I'll wasn't part of their nature or character.

Oh really?  And they didn't teach to curse the first two and elevated it to the rank of being an act of worship? 

Even if I accept your claim (that they did not speak ill of anyone), why don't you follow your Imams (ra) then?  Why do you speak ill of others when your Imams (ra) did not?

Shias claim that Muawiya started the tradition of cursing and today they are upon that tradition themselves.  Clearly shows who you are following, lol.


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Jaahil and jahalath. That answers this.

No it does not!  You clearly placed fart above Imamah, lol.  You fell in your own trap, haha!


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I will not condemn something that is permissible and allowed in the Qur'an and what was most certainly practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time

Fine, don't condemn mut'ah.  It is permissible and acceptable (according to your madhhab) then why are you crying over the fact that BBC made a documentary on it?  Any publicity is good publicity, is it not?
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 19, 2019, 11:11:57 AM
"First of all, it is "preach" not "preech".  Secondly, I showed you more than one authentic report from the Holy Prophet (saw) in which halala is condemned along with its participants.  I know there is no Sunni scholar who preaches halala - just like there are no fathers for your born-out-of-mut'ah scholars - but anyone who supports it has gone against the Holy Prophet (saw) and therefore cannot be a representative of our school"

Sunni scholars have been preaching halaal. The BBC documentary clearly shows that. And there isn't just one documentary on it. And there are plenty of Sunni scholars around the world who consider it a part of their faith and belief. Some even help woman with halaal by volunteering themselves.

As far as mut'ah is concerned it's mentioned in the Qur'an and clearly permissible. It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And we don't believe the Prophet s.a.w banned it because there is no justification out there regarding it. That's our position.

Your theory is the Prophet s.a.w banned it. The Prophet s.a.w didn't ban it but you believe and go by, he did. But can't justify it. Now it's down to the people to decide who's argument is stronger and has more weight. I'm not interested in the irrelevant stuff and the sarcastic comments. You can carry on with that.

As far as halaal is concerned it means to make something halal. Once a woman goes through triple talaq she can't marry the same husband. She is haraam on him. She has to become halaal for him. And the procedure for that is to marry another man, not just marry him but actually have intercourse with him. Obviously with the intention of divorce. Then she becomes halaal for her ex husband. I've known this throughout my life that this is part of the Sunni belief. It's preached in sunni mosques by sunni scholars and is practiced widely.

I don't need to, can but won't, use anything to undermine any faith or community. I don't go around picking and choosing bits and pieces then taking them out of perspective to undermine any religion, sect, community or people. Alhamdulillah I know where I take humanity followed by Islam from. And that is the Ahle Baith e Muhammad s.a.w. you guys are desperate. And you really need to sort yourself out.

"It is interesting that you used the word "tarnish".  You are implicitly implying that the documentary on mut'ah is tarnishing your image so I find it ridiculous that something "crystal clear in the Qur'an" and a Prophetic tradition is "tarnishing" to your otherwise dirty image"

Mut'ah isn't tarnishing our image just as it didn't tarnish the image of Allah who allowed it and Muhammad s.a.w in who's time and age it was practiced. Neither did it tarnish the reputation of the companions of the Prophet s.a.w or others who practiced it.

Certain people from our community who go out and misuse and abuse any law or principle, any rule or regulation, any benefit or comfort we can't be held responsible for that. And we certainly won't allow people like you and your clan to high jack that and use it against us.

The BBC only did its job to expose criminals just as in the halala documentary and many other documentaries on terror and a lot others. We don't associate terror with Sunni Islam as we preach to certain non Muslims and certain parts and elements of the western media not to associate terror with Islam because of certain Muslims fanatics, groups and organisations.

And we preach to certain Sunnis not to associate the misuse and abuse of any law or principle, any rule or regulation, any benefit or comfort with Shia Islam or its community. And we expose the propaganda of certain so called Sunnis who are deeply involved in such propaganda.

"Actually, post-Saqeefa, Islam spread like wildfire.  I don't know what disaster are you talking about except that there aren't 313 men among millions of Shias to help the scared one come out of hiding"

Not interested in sarcasm and irrelevant stuff. I'm fully aware of your agenda and tactics.

"According to Nahjul Balagha, your first "infallible" Imam (ra) accepted the Caliphate based on those very principles.  Are you saying you do not even know how your first "infallible" Imam (ra) became the leader?  Shame!"

And what were THOSE VERY PRINCIPLES 😊

"So you reject that Imam Ali (ra) gave bayyah to Abu Bakr (ra) and later consented to the rule of Umar (ra) and Uthman (ra)?"

Reject? I don't accept that. It's something I don't believe in. A lot of stuff was created/invented by certain rulers and enemies/rivals of the Ahle Baith then and way after. Things need to be looked at and examined. Just like the Prophet s.a.w all of a sudden and out of the blue banned Mu'tah.

"According to Imam Ali (ra) in Nahjul Balagha, it was as per Allah's (swt) pleasure.  Burn!"

Don't need to burn. You need to explain yourself and part of your beliefs.

"Fine, don't condemn mut'ah. It is permissible and acceptable (according to your madhhab)"

Nope. Not according to my madhhab but according to Allah and Muhammad s.a.w. According to your madhhab Muhammad s.a.w banned it. JUSTIFY YOUR MADHHAB.

"then why are you crying over the fact that BBC made a documentary on it"

I'm not crying over it. BBC didn't make a documentary on mut'ah. Because if they did then they would have used the Qur'an and Sunnah. They only exposed the misuse and abuse of it by certain people who unfortunately belonged to and are part of our community. I'm only pointing out your misuse and abuse of that documentary by taking it to feed and fund your propaganda activity.

"No it does not!  You clearly placed fart above Imamah, lol.  You fell in your own trap, haha!"

Like I said, not interested in sarcasm. Don't need to and won't go down to your level.

"Shias claim that Muawiya started the tradition of cursing and today they are upon that tradition themselves.  Clearly shows who you are following, lol."

"Yet, according to you, the ummah failed, Imam Hussain (ra) was killed and Saqeefa has been the root of all problems.  Therefore, Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) failed, lol!

Not interested at all in the irrelevant stuff you bring. Again fully aware of your techniques and tactics.

"Even if I accept your claim (that they did not speak ill of anyone), why don't you follow your Imams (ra) then?  Why do you speak ill of others when your Imams (ra) did not?"

I do follow them. Show me were and when I spoke I'll about anyone. That's your business. That's what you do. Want proof.

"Oh really?  And they didn't teach to curse the first two and elevated it to the rank of being an act of worship?"

Don't know what you're talking about. Are you OK. A bit of advice, don't bring irrelevant stuff on to the thread.

"Fadak was not personal vengeance but the right of Fatima (ra) and her children (ra).  Honestly, I am laughing out loud at you clutching at straws"

Authority and power isn't there for personal gain nor is it for to settle personal scores. Learn about the policies of the Ahle Baith and it's members
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 19, 2019, 07:16:33 PM
Sunni scholars have been preaching halaal.

Name me one and cite his fatwa.


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The BBC documentary clearly shows that. And there isn't just one documentary on it.

For every BBC documentary, we have authentic reports that deem halala impermissible so I am not sure why you are beating a dead horse.  I mean I understand you are no different than the piece of human excrement which gets stuck to the bowl and refuses to be flushed down but I hope even someone like you can understand that you are comparing a haraam act (halala) with something you consider to be clearly stated in the Qur'an and demonstrated in the Sunnah (mut'ah).


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And there are plenty of Sunni scholars around the world who consider it a part of their faith and belief. Some even help woman with halaal by volunteering themselves.

Surely you can name them.


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As far as mut'ah is concerned it's mentioned in the Qur'an and clearly permissible. It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And we don't believe the Prophet s.a.w banned it because there is no justification out there regarding it. That's our position.

I know bastards would protect their procreative ways but the question is this: why are you offended by the BBC documentary if mut'ah is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an and the Holy Prophet (saw) did not ban it?


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Your theory is the Prophet s.a.w banned it.

No, it is Imam Ali (ra) who reported from the Holy Prophet (saw) that mut'ah was banned.  Far from a theory!  By the way, where is mut'ah in the Qur'an?


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I've known this throughout my life that this is part of the Sunni belief.

Well guess what?  Halala, for the tenth time, is haraam as per authentic Prophetic traditions.  The fact that you grew up believing that it is mainstream Sunni practice proves that you were raised to hate the Sunnis.  And you have the nerve to accuse us of having brought up to hate Shias.

By the way, knowing something throughout your insignificant and meaningless life does not prove it to be true.


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I don't need to, can but won't, use anything to undermine any faith or community. I don't go around picking and choosing bits and pieces then taking them out of perspective to undermine any religion, sect, community or people.

Also Iceman, the lying piece of human scum, after having been shown that halala is haraam: "I've known this throughout my life that this (halala) is part of the Sunni belief".


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Mut'ah isn't tarnishing our image

Then why are you butthurt?  If it isn't tarnishing, you should thank the BBC for the publicity.


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Not interested in sarcasm and irrelevant stuff. I'm fully aware of your agenda and tactics.

It is not sarcasm.  It is a historical fact that Islam did not spread during the times of your first and second "infallible" Imams (ra).


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And what were THOSE VERY PRINCIPLES

"Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. 

1.  (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider),

2.  and he who was absent has no right to reject;

3.  and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. 

4.  If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure."


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Reject? I don't accept that. It's something I don't believe in.

Clearly, you are above your own scholars because they said:

1.) Zurarah narrated from Imam Baqir that he said : Ali had hidden his ‘amr’ and rendered allegiance with disliking when he didn’t find supporters. [Furu Kafi, 3/139]

2.) When the letter reached Usama, he returned with his supporters to Medinah, and when he saw that the people have united on AbuBakr, he went to Ali and asked : What is it? He replied :This is what you are observing. Usama asked : Have you also rendered allegiance to him? Ali said : Yes O Usamah! [Ihtijaj p. 50]

Shustri says:

3.) Ali and the complete bani hashim rendered allegiance to Abu Bakr with dislike, and laid their hands on his hand. [Majalis al Momineen, tadhkira Khalid ibn saeed]

4.) Ali said : I rendered allegiance to Abu Bakr just like you people rendered allegiance to him, and disliked to break the power of Muslims and disunite their jamaat, then when AbuBakr appointed Umar as Caliph after him, and you knew that I had more right after the Messenger of Allah (s), I still rendered allegiance to Umar as you rendered allegiance to him, till when he was killed and made me the member of six member council, I joined them and disliked to disunite the jamaat of the Muslims and break their power. Then you rendered allegiance to Uthman, I also rendered allegiance to him. [Amali by Tusi, 2/121]

5.) Sayyid Murtadha says in ‘al Shafi’ : What is apparent and in which there is no problem is that Ali rendered allegiance (to Abu Bakr) to protect from Sharr and escape from fitnah. [al-Shafi, p. 209]


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I'm not crying over it. BBC didn't make a documentary on mut'ah. Because if they did then they would have used the Qur'an and Sunnah. They only exposed the misuse and abuse of it by certain people who unfortunately belonged to and are part of our community.

Show us mut'ah in the Qur'an and please tell us which parts in the documentary highlight the misuse and abuse.


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Not interested at all in the irrelevant stuff you bring. Again fully aware of your techniques and tactics.

Very relevant!  You want to talk about Saqeefa but run away from the failure of your first and second "infallibles" (ra).  And you uphold the alleged Sunnah of Muawiya - cursing of others - but claim to be following the Imams (ra). 


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Authority and power isn't there for personal gain nor is it for to settle personal scores. Learn about the policies of the Ahle Baith and it's members

Policies of Ahle Baith (ra)?  Are you saying that they had policies and procedures?  What next?  A constitution?  Bill of Rights?  Charter of Rights? 

There is no personal gain in restoring Fadak except it would have been serving justice.  Clearly, the Imams (ra) proved you all to be liars by not doing a single thing you want us to believe they would have done had they had power.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2019, 01:38:00 AM
Name me one and cite his fatwa.


For every BBC documentary, we have authentic reports that deem halala impermissible so I am not sure why you are beating a dead horse.  I mean I understand you are no different than the piece of human excrement which gets stuck to the bowl and refuses to be flushed down but I hope even someone like you can understand that you are comparing a haraam act (halala) with something you consider to be clearly stated in the Qur'an and demonstrated in the Sunnah (mut'ah).


Surely you can name them.


I know bastards would protect their procreative ways but the question is this: why are you offended by the BBC documentary if mut'ah is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an and the Holy Prophet (saw) did not ban it?


No, it is Imam Ali (ra) who reported from the Holy Prophet (saw) that mut'ah was banned.  Far from a theory!  By the way, where is mut'ah in the Qur'an?


Well guess what?  Halala, for the tenth time, is haraam as per authentic Prophetic traditions.  The fact that you grew up believing that it is mainstream Sunni practice proves that you were raised to hate the Sunnis.  And you have the nerve to accuse us of having brought up to hate Shias.

By the way, knowing something throughout your insignificant and meaningless life does not prove it to be true.


Also Iceman, the lying piece of human scum, after having been shown that halala is haraam: "I've known this throughout my life that this (halala) is part of the Sunni belief".


Then why are you butthurt?  If it isn't tarnishing, you should thank the BBC for the publicity.


It is not sarcasm.  It is a historical fact that Islam did not spread during the times of your first and second "infallible" Imams (ra).


"Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. 

1.  (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider),

2.  and he who was absent has no right to reject;

3.  and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. 

4.  If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure."


Clearly, you are above your own scholars because they said:

1.) Zurarah narrated from Imam Baqir that he said : Ali had hidden his ‘amr’ and rendered allegiance with disliking when he didn’t find supporters. [Furu Kafi, 3/139]

2.) When the letter reached Usama, he returned with his supporters to Medinah, and when he saw that the people have united on AbuBakr, he went to Ali and asked : What is it? He replied :This is what you are observing. Usama asked : Have you also rendered allegiance to him? Ali said : Yes O Usamah! [Ihtijaj p. 50]

Shustri says:

3.) Ali and the complete bani hashim rendered allegiance to Abu Bakr with dislike, and laid their hands on his hand. [Majalis al Momineen, tadhkira Khalid ibn saeed]

4.) Ali said : I rendered allegiance to Abu Bakr just like you people rendered allegiance to him, and disliked to break the power of Muslims and disunite their jamaat, then when AbuBakr appointed Umar as Caliph after him, and you knew that I had more right after the Messenger of Allah (s), I still rendered allegiance to Umar as you rendered allegiance to him, till when he was killed and made me the member of six member council, I joined them and disliked to disunite the jamaat of the Muslims and break their power. Then you rendered allegiance to Uthman, I also rendered allegiance to him. [Amali by Tusi, 2/121]

5.) Sayyid Murtadha says in ‘al Shafi’ : What is apparent and in which there is no problem is that Ali rendered allegiance (to Abu Bakr) to protect from Sharr and escape from fitnah. [al-Shafi, p. 209]


Show us mut'ah in the Qur'an and please tell us which parts in the documentary highlight the misuse and abuse.


Very relevant!  You want to talk about Saqeefa but run away from the failure of your first and second "infallibles" (ra).  And you uphold the alleged Sunnah of Muawiya - cursing of others - but claim to be following the Imams (ra). 


Policies of Ahle Baith (ra)?  Are you saying that they had policies and procedures?  What next?  A constitution?  Bill of Rights?  Charter of Rights? 

There is no personal gain in restoring Fadak except it would have been serving justice.  Clearly, the Imams (ra) proved you all to be liars by not doing a single thing you want us to believe they would have done had they had power.

"There is no personal gain in restoring Fadak except it would have been serving justice.  Clearly, the Imams (ra) proved you all to be liars by not doing a single thing you want us to believe they would have done had they had power"

Fadak has been discussed in great detail. Pull out the thread or start another one, if you're that desperate. Authority and power isn't for personal gain or settling personal scores. That's exactly what some rulers did after Muhammad s.a.w. And some people governed how they assumed better.

"Policies of Ahle Baith (ra)?  Are you saying that they had policies and procedures?  What next?  A constitution?  Bill of Rights?  Charter of Rights?"

I've already explained the ways and policies of the Ahle Baith. You toying with matter isn't going to get you anywhere.

"Very relevant!  You want to talk about Saqeefa but run away from the failure of your first and second "infallibles" (ra).  And you uphold the alleged Sunnah of Muawiya - cursing of others - but claim to be following the Imams (ra)"

Irrelevant to this thread. Start a thread then watch me. Will see who runs. You're running at the moment bringing in irrelevant stuff.

Points 1 to 5 you put forward. What happened to you, the Sahaba and other Muslims when Ali was made calipha? Those who opposed Ali or went further raising arms against him, where do you put them? Double standards. I thought so.

"Clearly, you are above your own scholars because they said"

1, Just because they've mentioned something in their book doesn’t mean it's their opinion.

2, Giving allegiance voluntarily is different then not having a choice. Some individuals think about others and some just think about themselves.

3, History has been tampered with along with narrations and hadiths. They're certain things we believe and certain things we don't.

4, There is a difference in opinion when it comes to scholars. Some might believe that Ali gave allegiance. And some probably believe he didn't.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2019, 01:57:08 AM
The Verse of Mut’ah (4:24)
The most important verse of the Holy Qur’an which establishes the legitimacy of Mut’ah is verse 24 of Surat an-Nisa, known to all hadeeth commentators (Sunni and Shi’a) as “the verse of Mut’ah.” This verse provides a clear and unshakeable permission for the practice of temporary marriage. In the same way that Islam has established principles to protect human beings, via rules and regulations, it has at the same time provided for legitimate means by which man can enjoy himself, and Mut’ah is one of these ways. The Shari’ah prohibits fornication, but at the same time allows the practise of Mut’ah. If anyone is unaware of this blessing from Allah (swt), then let us set out the evidences from the Holy Qur’an:

[Forbidden to you] are married woman, except what your right hand possesses. This Allah has written for you, and all other women besides these are permitted to you, so that you may seek them out with your wealth, seeking chastity and not fornication. So when you have contracted temporary marriage [istimt'atum] with them, then give them their words. There is no sin on you for whatever you agree to after this. Indeed, Allah is Knowing, Wise.
Al-Qur’an, Surah An-Nisa, Ayah 24

Allah (swt) has used the word istimta’tum, which is the verbal form of the word Mut’ah. While the word has many other numerous meanings (as will be discussed below), we see that in the same way that the terms Zakat, Saum, and hajj carry a specific Islamic definition, so does the word istimta’. The specific, Islamic meaning which the word refers to is the performance of a temporary marriage, and nobody has denied this.

Four main evidences that prove that verse 4:24 refers to Mutah
We initially submitted Sunni materials that prove that amongst the numerous Qur’anic verses, there exists a specific one regarding Mutah, namely the 24th verse of Surah Nisa. In that verse Allah (swt) has used the Arabic word istimta’tum, which is the verbal form of the word Mut’ah. Many Nawasib try their best to prove that istimta’tum does not in any way refer to Nikah al-Mutah, but all such Nasibi attempts fall flat since there are three key pieces of evidence that negate the Nasibi notion.

First evidence- The fact that authentic Sunni books are replete with traditions informing us of episodes wherein the Sahabah performed temporary marriage (Mutah) and many of these traditions contain the same Arabic word istimta. Let us cite two such examples, first from Sahih Muslim, the second most authentic Sunni Hadith book.


حدثني الربيع بن سبرة الجهني، أن أباه، حدثه أنه، كان مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال ‏”‏ يا أيها الناس إني قد كنت أذنت لكم في الاستمتاع من النساء
“Sabra al-Juhanni reported on the authority of his father that while he was with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon hm) he said: 0 people, I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women…”
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3255

We read the following episode in Muwatta by Imam Malik:

۔۔۔ عمر بن الخطاب فقالت ان ربيعة بن امية استمتع بامراة فحملت منه ۔۔۔
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr that Khawla ibn Hakim came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, ”Rabia ibn Umayya made a temporary marriage with a woman and she…”
Muwatta Imam Malik, Book 28, Number 28.18.42

Second evidence – The fact that all Sunni commentators have recorded arguments regarding the permissibility or impermissibility of Mutah and have recorded the practices and views of the Sahaba, Tabaeen and Ulema regarding Mutah under the commentary of no other verse but 4:24. For those Nawasib who advance the notion that this verse does not deal with Mutah, we would like to ask them:

“Did the Sunni commentators of the Quran including the Nasibi’s favourite Ibn Kathir, along with Imam Tabari, Qurtubi etc have no understanding as to what they were doing when they were advancing their arguments about Mutah under the commentary of 4:24?”

Third evidence - The fact that many of the prominent Sahaba and Tabayeen that present day Nawasib adhere to would read the cited verse with some extra words, making it crystal clear that the verse referred to temporary marriage. They would recite the verse in this manner:

“And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them) for a specified period…”

The recitation of the words ‘for a specified period’ by the Sahaba and Taba’een proves this to be the verse dealing with Mutah in which the period of marriage is specified.

Fourth evidence – The fact that the leading Sahaba, Tabayeen and scholars clearly stated that verse 4:24 refers to ‘temporary marriage’ leaves no ground for our opponents to bring absurd excuses. We read the testimony of the great jurist, Mujahid who stated:

“This (verse) revealed for Mut’ah marriage”

Famed Sunni commentator of Holy Quran namely Maqatil bin Sulaiman himself would read the verse in this manner: ‘Then as to those whom you profit by for a specified period” making it clear that according to him this verse refers to temporary marriage.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2019, 02:01:50 AM
"Show us mut'ah in the Qur'an"

https://youtu.be/wXLUOrhtxk4
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 20, 2019, 11:05:10 AM
Iceman's main defence of shia beliefs/countries just tends to be a response composed of "what about xyz sunni belief/country!?" and in most cases when he does his whatabouttery, his ideas about the sunni belief/country is often false or it's not even a sunni belief or sunnis don't even support that country in it's action.

Let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that misyar or halala are practiced throughout the sunni world and that they both have scholarly backing. Even then it doesn't make mutah any less worse. If my brother kicks a cat and I tell him he's wrong and he replies "yes but what about you kicking that chicken...", my kicking the chicken does not make his action of kicking the cat right or excuse it.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2019, 11:17:11 AM
Iceman's main defence of shia beliefs/countries just tends to be a response composed of "what about xyz sunni belief/country!?" and in most cases when he does his whatabouttery, his ideas about the sunni belief/country is often false or it's not even a sunni belief or sunnis don't even support that country in it's action.

"Iceman's main defence of shia beliefs/countries just tends to be a response composed of "what about xyz sunni belief/country"

Allow me to correct this,  my defence is not about Shia beliefs and countries, it's about reality and the truth and asking you for explanation and reasoning. It's about you constantly attacking anything and anyone who has to do and is associated with Shiaism. And that is on grudge, not on reality and facts.

I'm just bringing out your grudge against the Shia belief and proving that everything you start and say is based on that grudge. This is where your world begins and ends unfortunately.

"his ideas about the sunni belief/country is often false or it's not even a sunni belief or sunnis don't even support that country in it's action"

Well bring it and put it out just as quick as you are about Iran. Don't make me drag it out of you.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 20, 2019, 04:02:59 PM
"Iceman's main defence of shia beliefs/countries just tends to be a response composed of "what about xyz sunni belief/country"

Allow me to correct this,  my defence is not about Shia beliefs and countries, it's about reality and the truth and asking you for explanation and reasoning. It's about you constantly attacking anything and anyone who has to do and is associated with Shiaism. And that is on grudge, not on reality and facts.

I'm just bringing out your grudge against the Shia belief and proving that everything you start and say is based on that grudge. This is where your world begins and ends unfortunately.

"his ideas about the sunni belief/country is often false or it's not even a sunni belief or sunnis don't even support that country in it's action"

Well bring it and put it out just as quick as you are about Iran. Don't make me drag it out of you.

Iceman comes on website which aims to destroy shiaism
> Iceman shocked when users constantly attack shiaism

If twelver shiaism didn't stand for shirk, pagan-like practices, attacks on Islamic figures, threaten the life and faith of Muslims, then I wouldn't have a grudge. But it does stand for those things and so we have a grudge. I have a grudge against secularism and liberalism too you know so it's not exactly limited to twelver shiaism lol.

Drag what?
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 20, 2019, 04:11:55 PM

Now what do we do here, do we do exactly the same as these anti shia propagandists  and use the above to try and tarnish the name of sunnis and start attacking the Sunni community over this. No. There is a clear difference between us and those who use the Sunni platform to launch strikes at us and those noble Sunnis who differ with them.

You regularly try to tarnish the name of sunnis, just today you said:

It's actually the other way around. Hussain and his group were massacred by the Muslim army on the orders of the Muslim Caliph. We Shias stand with oppressed against the oppressors. The oppressors are all sunni governments or Sunni militants. I talk on facts and you talk on grudge.

Shias are notorious for using the "all terrorists are sunni" line to gain politically. Anyone who disagrees with shias is called a terrorist sympathiser or extremist and anyone who falls for shia propaganda gets labelled a good sunni or as you said it "a noble sunni" lol. Your boy whoaretheshia used to pull a similar stunt on student forums except he used to call the sunnis who weren't so openly against shiaism "true sunnis".

You hate sunnis and Islam just as much as we hate twelver shiaism. Yet you always try to paint yourself as some great objective person who is not emotional at all and who has no grudges whatsoever.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2019, 08:54:19 PM
Iceman comes on website which aims to destroy shiaism
> Iceman shocked when users constantly attack shiaism

If twelver shiaism didn't stand for shirk, pagan-like practices, attacks on Islamic figures, threaten the life and faith of Muslims, then I wouldn't have a grudge. But it does stand for those things and so we have a grudge. I have a grudge against secularism and liberalism too you know so it's not exactly limited to twelver shiaism lol.

Drag what?

I'm not shocked. This propaganda has been going on for nearly 1400 years. Nothing to be shocked about. Just dealing with the usual crap.

"If twelver shiaism didn't stand for shirk, pagan-like practices, attacks on Islamic figures, threaten the life and faith of Muslims"

Absolute rubbish. This is the usual crap. Let me give you an example of this "attacks on Islamic figures, threaten the life and faith of Muslims" Alqaida, Taliban, Sipa e Sahaba, Lashkar e Jangvi, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, ISIS etc tell me which ones are Shia.

You carry on bringing nonsense based on your grudge, and I'm here to deal with your crap. Someone has to take the garbage out. Not nice work but I'll take it out.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2019, 09:01:30 PM
You regularly try to tarnish the name of sunnis, just today you said:

Shias are notorious for using the "all terrorists are sunni" line to gain politically. Anyone who disagrees with shias is called a terrorist sympathiser or extremist and anyone who falls for shia propaganda gets labelled a good sunni or as you said it "a noble sunni" lol. Your boy whoaretheshia used to pull a similar stunt on student forums except he used to call the sunnis who weren't so openly against shiaism "true sunnis".

You hate sunnis and Islam just as much as we hate twelver shiaism. Yet you always try to paint yourself as some great objective person who is not emotional at all and who has no grudges whatsoever.

"You regularly try to tarnish the name of sunnis, just today you said"

Just said? Show me the regular, not just said. I don't call or consider you and your kind sunnis. You just use the Ahle Sunnah platform to dish out your garbage. I come from a mixed community. And I have relatives who are Sunnis. Neither do I see you as Sunnis and neither do they who are and happen to be Sunnis.

"You hate sunnis and Islam"

Absolute nonsense. You come out with such comments because you can't discuses. You just don't have it.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 20, 2019, 10:46:04 PM
"You regularly try to tarnish the name of sunnis, just today you said"

Just said? Show me the regular, not just said. I don't call or consider you and your kind sunnis. You just use the Ahle Sunnah platform to dish out your garbage. I come from a mixed community. And I have relatives who are Sunnis. Neither do I see you as Sunnis and neither do they who are and happen to be Sunnis.

"You hate sunnis and Islam"

Absolute nonsense. You come out with such comments because you can't discuses. You just don't have it.

I literally copy and pasted what you said. I can't show you it more plainer than that.

Ah yes, a shia dictating who is a sunni and who isn't. Good one.

You sound like one of those racists who hate on black people and then follow it up by saying "I have black friends". You know your friend whoaretheshia does the same thing? He hides his sunni hate behind "my cousin is a sunni...". It doesn't matter who your relatives are, you didn't choose them, you were simply born in that family. And a withll the hateful things you say about sunnis on here, well, say it to them in real life and you might find yourself in a bit of a family feud.

I don't have what lol?

Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 20, 2019, 10:50:46 PM
I'm not shocked. This propaganda has been going on for nearly 1400 years. Nothing to be shocked about. Just dealing with the usual crap.

"If twelver shiaism didn't stand for shirk, pagan-like practices, attacks on Islamic figures, threaten the life and faith of Muslims"

Absolute rubbish. This is the usual crap. Let me give you an example of this "attacks on Islamic figures, threaten the life and faith of Muslims" Alqaida, Taliban, Sipa e Sahaba, Lashkar e Jangvi, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, ISIS etc tell me which ones are Shia.

You carry on bringing nonsense based on your grudge, and I'm here to deal with your crap. Someone has to take the garbage out. Not nice work but I'll take it out.

Oh you want the names of shia terrorist groups? Here's some:

Remember that statistically, the assad regime and it's allies have carried out more rape, torture, murder, than any other side in the conflict. Surprising isn't it? A minority backed regime and it's minority group allies committed the most crimes. Gosh you guys even put ISIS to shame, even those criminals couldn't keep up (statistically) with the evil your groups & allies have done.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE0kxoQUAAIejpb.jpg:large)
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 21, 2019, 04:36:14 AM
Oh you want the names of shia terrorist groups? Here's some:

Remember that statistically, the assad regime and it's allies have carried out more rape, torture, murder, than any other side in the conflict. Surprising isn't it? A minority backed regime and it's minority group allies committed the most crimes. Gosh you guys even put ISIS to shame, even those criminals couldn't keep up (statistically) with the evil your groups & allies have done.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE0kxoQUAAIejpb.jpg:large)

Assad? Here we go again. It's either Assad or Iran, the Iraqi government or hizbullah. That's just about it for you. Assad was and is protecting it's people and country from these Sunni militants (ISIS) that are causing absolute havoc in the middle east. And Assad has been successful in holding on to power and not giving into these Sunni militants. Great job by Assad.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 21, 2019, 04:40:17 AM
I literally copy and pasted what you said. I can't show you it more plainer than that.

Ah yes, a shia dictating who is a sunni and who isn't. Good one.

You sound like one of those racists who hate on black people and then follow it up by saying "I have black friends". You know your friend whoaretheshia does the same thing? He hides his sunni hate behind "my cousin is a sunni...". It doesn't matter who your relatives are, you didn't choose them, you were simply born in that family. And a withll the hateful things you say about sunnis on here, well, say it to them in real life and you might find yourself in a bit of a family feud.

I don't have what lol?

"Ah yes, a shia dictating who is a sunni and who isn't. Good one"

That's exactly like anti shia and propagandists telling the world and us about Shiaism. Look who's talking. Your tactics aren't working.

"And a withll the hateful things you say about sunnis on here"

And would you mind telling me those hateful things 😊

And I love the respect and honour you give us 😅  You're loosing it 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 21, 2019, 05:21:59 AM
The Verse of Mut’ah (4:24)
The most important verse of the Holy Qur’an which establishes the legitimacy of Mut’ah is verse 24 of Surat an-Nisa, known to all hadeeth commentators (Sunni and Shi’a) as “the verse of Mut’ah.”

Ignoring your other post, allow me to expose your most grotesque lie.  Most grotesque because you've lied upon the Qur'an.


Quote
[Forbidden to you] are married woman, except what your right hand possesses. This Allah has written for you, and all other women besides these are permitted to you, so that you may seek them out with your wealth, seeking chastity and not fornication. So when you have contracted temporary marriage [istimt'atum] with them, then give them their words. There is no sin on you for whatever you agree to after this. Indeed, Allah is Knowing, Wise.
Al-Qur’an, Surah An-Nisa, Ayah 24

Aren't you a piece of crap?  A snake too!

Here is the verse without your mistranslation: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath God ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and God is All-knowing, All-wise.

Where is "temporary marriage", you byproduct of one?


Quote
Allah (swt) has used the word istimta’tum, which is the verbal form of the word Mut’ah. While the word has many other numerous meanings (as will be discussed below), we see that in the same way that the terms Zakat, Saum, and hajj carry a specific Islamic definition, so does the word istimta’. The specific, Islamic meaning which the word refers to is the performance of a temporary marriage, and nobody has denied this.

Here is another verse to satisfy your "istimta'tum" fantasies.

"On the Day when those who disbelieve will be exposed to the Fire (it will be said): 'You received your good things in the life of the world, and ista’mta’tum therein.  Today, you will be recompensed with the torment of extreme humiliation, because you were arrogant upon the earth without a right, and because you used to rebel against Allah’s command.' "  (Surah Al-Ahqaf verse 20)

So hell is reserved for those who do "istimta'tum".  Now what?


Quote
Third evidence - The fact that many of the prominent Sahaba and Tabayeen that present day Nawasib adhere to would read the cited verse with some extra words, making it crystal clear that the verse referred to temporary marriage. They would recite the verse in this manner:

“And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them) for a specified period…”

The recitation of the words ‘for a specified period’ by the Sahaba and Taba’een proves this to be the verse dealing with Mutah in which the period of marriage is specified.

Fourth evidence – The fact that the leading Sahaba, Tabayeen and scholars clearly stated that verse 4:24 refers to ‘temporary marriage’ leaves no ground for our opponents to bring absurd excuses. We read the testimony of the great jurist, Mujahid who stated:

“This (verse) revealed for Mut’ah marriage”

Famed Sunni commentator of Holy Quran namely Maqatil bin Sulaiman himself would read the verse in this manner: ‘Then as to those whom you profit by for a specified period” making it clear that according to him this verse refers to temporary marriage.

Maybe Maqatil bin Sulaiman recited it as such to convince cuckold Shia men to give him their womenfolk but to rescue the honor of the women of ShiaPen, let me inform you that he was deemed NOT a scholar.  Unanimous!

"There is however unanimous consensus that Muqatil was not a scholar......Amidst the scholars of Islam, Muqatil's reputation is that of a storyteller".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqatil_ibn_Sulayman

You can tell your boyfriends at ShiaPen that I saved their women from Maqatil and his likes.  You're welcome, along with your boyfriends.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: muslim720 on December 21, 2019, 05:25:21 AM
Let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that misyar or halala are practiced throughout the sunni world and that they both have scholarly backing. Even then it doesn't make mutah any less worse. If my brother kicks a cat and I tell him he's wrong and he replies "yes but what about you kicking that chicken...", my kicking the chicken does not make his action of kicking the cat right or excuse it.

We Afghans have a saying.  Reciting Yaseen (in other words Qur'an) to a donkey.  Using rational faculties to break something down to Iceman is like reciting Qur'an to a donkey. 
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 21, 2019, 09:11:38 AM
Assad? Here we go again. It's either Assad or Iran, the Iraqi government or hizbullah. That's just about it for you. Assad was and is protecting it's people and country from these Sunni militants (ISIS) that are causing absolute havoc in the middle east. And Assad has been successful in holding on to power and not giving into these Sunni militants. Great job by Assad.

Just a typical shia showing his support for another oppressor just because the oppressor favours shias.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Adil on December 21, 2019, 10:00:02 AM
We Afghans have a saying.  Reciting Yaseen (in other words Qur'an) to a donkey.  Using rational faculties to break something down to Iceman is like reciting Qur'an to a donkey.

Iceman is a shiaism haters dream come true. I would be very surprised if some shias reading the threads aren't getting more doubts about shiaism by reading his replies to us.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 21, 2019, 09:45:30 PM
Iceman is a shiaism haters dream come true. I would be very surprised if some shias reading the threads aren't getting more doubts about shiaism by reading his replies to us.

You definitely are day dreaming. You live in your own world. 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 28, 2019, 02:45:44 PM
Iceman is a shiaism haters dream come true. I would be very surprised if some shias reading the threads aren't getting more doubts about shiaism by reading his replies to us.

He is ALHAMDULILLAH, the guy is a laughing stock to us even my friends buzz off his answers.........his fav answer about divine Imamate is.......PROMOTION!! Allah swt simply gave it to ahle baith ra without any reason whatsoever but the prophets had to go through (unexplained) trials.

This is how divine Imamate came about according to icepop man 😂😂😂😂😂

A kid who reckons he is a syed😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Joker
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 28, 2019, 02:47:01 PM
Oh yeah and not forgetting him posting youtubers and trying to pass them off as ahlu sunnah scholars 😂😂😜😂😂😂😂😂

What a rawafid joker😜
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2019, 11:48:22 PM
He is ALHAMDULILLAH, the guy is a laughing stock to us even my friends buzz off his answers.........his fav answer about divine Imamate is.......PROMOTION!! Allah swt simply gave it to ahle baith ra without any reason whatsoever but the prophets had to go through (unexplained) trials.

This is how divine Imamate came about according to icepop man 😂😂😂😂😂

A kid who reckons he is a syed😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Joker


"A kid who reckons he is a syed:

You seem to know me better. I don't reckon, I am. Reckon, assume and probably is something you go by

"the guy is a laughing stock to us even my friends buzz off his answers......"

Well they're your friends. Show somebody neutral and random like I do. They read your posts and say, "seems like a 10 year old throwing tantrums". The sarcasm and mocking on this site and how I'll you speak about us, the Ahle Sunnah clearly distance themselves from you. They disown people and others on this site.

"Allah swt simply gave it to ahle baith ra without any reason whatsoever"

Allah does what he wants. He doesn't need to give you any explanation. You can't even explain yourselves. The only thing you can say about yourselves is 'Shias are bad so become a Sunni'. You're childish and that's how you respond. That's all you understand. Discussion based on intellect is not your thing.
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 29, 2019, 03:45:46 PM

"A kid who reckons he is a syed:

You seem to know me better. I don't reckon, I am. Reckon, assume and probably is something you go by

"the guy is a laughing stock to us even my friends buzz off his answers......"

Well they're your friends. Show somebody neutral and random like I do. They read your posts and say, "seems like a 10 year old throwing tantrums". The sarcasm and mocking on this site and how I'll you speak about us, the Ahle Sunnah clearly distance themselves from you. They disown people and others on this site.

"Allah swt simply gave it to ahle baith ra without any reason whatsoever"

Allah does what he wants. He doesn't need to give you any explanation. You can't even explain yourselves. The only thing you can say about yourselves is 'Shias are bad so become a Sunni'. You're childish and that's how you respond. That's all you understand. Discussion based on intellect is not your thing.

A dimwit who will go online and say he is syed but cannot prove he is one especially going by the answers to divine Imamate which you have NO proof of either, using youtubers and passing them off as ahlu sunnah scholars.
Stop kidding yourself!

Look at your miserable answer.....”Allah does what He wants He doesn’t need to give you an explanation”

😂😂😂😂😂

This is as far as divine leadership goes for icepop and his Shiite kind, it’s a promotion but only Allah knows why without EXPLAINING to His prophet or written in Quran.

Only icepop and his shiites know the reality, not even the imams said or knew but icepop KNOWS!!

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Icepop this is what you call a joke, it’s NOT intellect when you ask a question and in response you get......”Allah does what He wants”..... in other words you have no proof or no idea but your own thoughts and theories.

The devil sure deceived you and your kind

1400 years and icepop like his majusi ancestors still don’t know WHY ALLAH SWT PROMOTES A MAJOR PROPHET AFTER TRIALS TO S DIVINE IMAM AND THE AHLEBAITH GET A PROMOTION WITHOUT TRIAL.

This is the biggest joke in Islam........that Allah swt appoints divine imams AFTER prophethood.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 29, 2019, 03:52:00 PM

The sarcasm and mocking on this site and how I'll you speak about us, the Ahle Sunnah clearly distance themselves from you. They disown people and others on this site.


Lol another LIE the ahlu sunnah you speak of like the vids you post of these individuals don’t have major followings and DO NOT represent ahlu sunnah as major scholars.

Yasir khabeeth must be a major Shiite scholar heck them mullahs in bbc documentary on muta are REAL SHIA scholars.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Joker
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 29, 2019, 11:28:46 PM
Lol another LIE the ahlu sunnah you speak of like the vids you post of these individuals don’t have major followings and DO NOT represent ahlu sunnah as major scholars.

Yasir khabeeth must be a major Shiite scholar heck them mullahs in bbc documentary on muta are REAL SHIA scholars.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Joker

"Lol another LIE the ahlu sunnah you speak of like the vids you post of these individuals don’t have major followings and DO NOT represent ahlu sunnah as major scholars"

And who represents the Ahle Sunnah? This site and a few hate mongers like you.  😊 They have plenty of followings. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're not Ahle Sunnah. Anything I put forward is full of suspicion. Anything you put forward is full of assurance 😊 Wow. You want me to believe in your tales. And you start to call your scholars engineered 😊

"Yasir khabeeth must be a major Shiite scholar heck them mullahs in bbc documentary on muta are REAL SHIA scholars"

In the BBC documentary the halala scholars are real Sunni scholars. And the documentary shows the real and true side of what you and your community are. 😆 What goes around then will come around. 😊
Title: Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
Post by: iceman on December 29, 2019, 11:40:13 PM
A dimwit who will go online and say he is syed but cannot prove he is one especially going by the answers to divine Imamate which you have NO proof of either, using youtubers and passing them off as ahlu sunnah scholars.
Stop kidding yourself!

Look at your miserable answer.....”Allah does what He wants He doesn’t need to give you an explanation”

😂😂😂😂😂

This is as far as divine leadership goes for icepop and his Shiite kind, it’s a promotion but only Allah knows why without EXPLAINING to His prophet or written in Quran.

Only icepop and his shiites know the reality, not even the imams said or knew but icepop KNOWS!!

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Icepop this is what you call a joke, it’s NOT intellect when you ask a question and in response you get......”Allah does what He wants”..... in other words you have no proof or no idea but your own thoughts and theories.

The devil sure deceived you and your kind

1400 years and icepop like his majusi ancestors still don’t know WHY ALLAH SWT PROMOTES A MAJOR PROPHET AFTER TRIALS TO S DIVINE IMAM AND THE AHLEBAITH GET A PROMOTION WITHOUT TRIAL.

This is the biggest joke in Islam........that Allah swt appoints divine imams AFTER prophethood.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

What do you want from me now, a copy of my birth certificate or my family lineage Shajarah? 😀 You want me to prove this and that. What have you proven till yet? How many smiley faces you can pull 😆 It's give and take.

"Look at your miserable answer.....”Allah does what He wants He doesn’t need to give you an explanation”

Show me what's miserable about that. Does God owe you explanations? 😊

Divine leadership has been proven from the Qur'an on numerous occasions. You're just going paghal over it. You have no answer to it. That's why you're going cuckoo 😊 All you're doing is beating around the bush constantly that may be a proof of Caliphate my suddenly drop out 😊

Doesn't Allah do what he wants and desires because he is God. Or does he need to seek your permission. 😊 And then is answerable to you 😊

{Indeed your Lord is the Doer of what He wills} (11: 107)

{(He is the) Doer of what He wills.} (85: 16)

The above references should be able to shut you up. But again probably not because of your nature. 😊