TwelverShia.net Forum

Off Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Siamak on February 20, 2015, 03:25:04 PM

Title: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: Siamak on February 20, 2015, 03:25:04 PM
Assalaamu 'alaikum WR WB
My name is Siamak, left shia in 2008.im from iran.One of the biggest reasons I left Shiism is because almost all of the Shii theories have no Qur'anic backing. One of those happens to be the concept of Imamah - 'Ali's succession, 12 Imams, Divinely appointed Imams after Rasul Allah (saw) e.t.c.. The more I was reading (also Sunnah, Hadith, etc.) the more I was convinced that the sunni Islam is actually a beautiful and wise religion.
but im living in iran.In the recent past, shias are spreading so wast in iran.The websites, the media, the handbills and many more materials which promote shiism are encouraging the youth by calling them towards so called shia revert and claiming some sunni converted to shia specially towards palestine morocco algeria egypt
Well, I am not backbiting, but I want to know the truth about this news
From some iranian sources(media , website) I got to know some sunnis in palestine morocco algeria egypt converted to shia
Is that true? Can anyone give me authentic information about them?
But I am in a dire need of knowing whether they are converted to shia, 'coz I am writing an awareness article for the local youth (Against Shiya) and I need AUTHENTIC facts about them as well ('coz the muslims here are shia craziest fans !!)
Someone plz help me with it Insha Allah
-If this post is not appropriate Admins plz do remove it


reason for edit: improved the title.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 20, 2015, 04:04:01 PM
Salam `Aleykum,

First of all Allah has blessed you with the Sunnah of Rasul-Allah (saw), and he protected you from the deviance that those corrupt men fabricate and attribute to Ja`far and his father.

As far as conversions, there are some Muslims who were tricked into becoming Shia, especially in poor African countries or countries where there isn't any strong Islamic education such as Tunisia or Indonesia. I am from Sham and I do not know anyone who became a Shia but I'm pretty sure there must be some here and there. Another thing is, we've been observing that a lot of the Sunnies who become Shia (online), they usually don't stick to it, they leave it after a while and return to Sunnah or atheism or something else. On the other hand, quite a few Shia living in western countries are becoming Sunni Alhamdulillah, their numbers aren't big but they're quite well educated about Tashayyu`, that is because Shiasm is like brainwashing, it is hard to leave it for many reasons, this is why a lot Shia who learn about how corrupt their faith is still can't leave it and end up becoming something in the middle between Sunni and Shia since they're too scared to leave that religion. Additionally, as you yourself stated, Iran is putting a lot of money and effort into converting Sunnies to Shiasm, Ahlul-Sunnah are mostly oblivious and do not care about these issues nor do they know anything about the Shia faith so they can counter it.

That's kinda it bro.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: MuslimK on February 20, 2015, 05:57:42 PM
Walaikum Salam wr wb,

Welcome to the forum baradar and praise be to Allah for guiding you to the way of the Prophet (saw), his Ahlulbayt and his Companions.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 20, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
Would the brother mind opening a new thread and telling us some details of how he left Imami Tashayyu` and embraced the Qur'an and the Sunnah?
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Siamak on February 20, 2015, 07:12:26 PM
ok brother
im going to create a typic and explain why i become sunni muslim
now im bussy and im working and my time is limit
The reason is for me the Shia beliefs don’t make sense.shia wasnt the  right path, the path on which i was before the Safavids, Ahle Sonnat wa Jama’at. in iran I have seen many shia converted to sunni islam by reading shia resource
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Ameen on February 20, 2015, 08:37:55 PM
Assalaamu 'alaikum WR WB
My name is Siamak, left shia in 2008.im from iran.One of the biggest reasons I left Shiism is because almost all of the Shii theories have no Qur'anic backing. One of those happens to be the concept of Imamah - 'Ali's succession, 12 Imams, Divinely appointed Imams after Rasul Allah (saw) e.t.c.. The more I was reading (also Sunnah, Hadith, etc.) the more I was convinced that the sunni Islam is actually a beautiful and wise religion.
but im living in iran.In the recent past, shias are spreading so wast in iran.The websites, the media, the handbills and many more materials which promote shiism are encouraging the youth by calling them towards so called shia revert and claiming some sunni converted to shia specially towards palestine morocco algeria egypt
Well, I am not backbiting, but I want to know the truth about this news
From some iranian sources(media , website) I got to know some sunnis in palestine morocco algeria egypt converted to shia
Is that true? Can anyone give me authentic information about them?
But I am in a dire need of knowing whether they are converted to shia, 'coz I am writing an awareness article for the local youth (Against Shiya) and I need AUTHENTIC facts about them as well ('coz the muslims here are shia craziest fans !!)
Someone plz help me with it Insha Allah
-If this post is not appropriate Admins plz do remove it


Salaam brother and congratulations from me. What ever you are happy and comfortable with. Brother you said,

"I was convinced that Sunni Islam is a beautiful and wise religion",

Was the only reason for this that you were not satisfied and sure about certain Shia issues or did you actually look in to Sunnis version of Islam as well???





 


Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Ameen on February 20, 2015, 08:51:25 PM
Brother Hani, what you have put down is not true. I don't know where you get your information from but it certainly isn't right.

First of all both countries, Saudi as wel as Iran, both invest money in promoting their version of Isalm. So it's a two way thing and being bias about it and putting one side of the story isn't right and neither wise.

Secondly nobody tricks anyone in to anything but if that is how you feel then let me put this forward,

I have heard a lot of stories about Shias and what they believe in and get up to during Muharram and in Imam Barghas.

I even hear the same stories from the people we socialise and get to know through work, neighbourhood, friends, gatherings etc and i have to put them straight and right about what they have heard and have been told.

Brother none of these stories are true and there is not a shred of truth in them. It's just to keep people well away from Shiaism and the Shias. To stop people from socialising with Shias and to get to know them.

Will continue this.













 




Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 20, 2015, 10:06:01 PM
^ That's why al-islam.org (Shia site) is full of Da`wah books translated to English such as Tijani's books and the rest. While on the other hand Sunnies barely have ANY books at all which discuss Tashayyu` in English, heck Minhaj al-Sunni by ibn Taymiyyah which is the main book used by Salafis to refute Shia since the time it was written has still not yet been translated to English.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Siamak on February 20, 2015, 11:54:24 PM
Assalaamu 'alaikum WR WB
My name is Siamak, left shia in 2008.im from iran.One of the biggest reasons I left Shiism is because almost all of the Shii theories have no Qur'anic backing. One of those happens to be the concept of Imamah - 'Ali's succession, 12 Imams, Divinely appointed Imams after Rasul Allah (saw) e.t.c.. The more I was reading (also Sunnah, Hadith, etc.) the more I was convinced that the sunni Islam is actually a beautiful and wise religion.
but im living in iran.In the recent past, shias are spreading so wast in iran.The websites, the media, the handbills and many more materials which promote shiism are encouraging the youth by calling them towards so called shia revert and claiming some sunni converted to shia specially towards palestine morocco algeria egypt
Well, I am not backbiting, but I want to know the truth about this news
From some iranian sources(media , website) I got to know some sunnis in palestine morocco algeria egypt converted to shia
Is that true? Can anyone give me authentic information about them?
But I am in a dire need of knowing whether they are converted to shia, 'coz I am writing an awareness article for the local youth (Against Shiya) and I need AUTHENTIC facts about them as well ('coz the muslims here are shia craziest fans !!)
Someone plz help me with it Insha Allah
-If this post is not appropriate Admins plz do remove it


Salaam brother and congratulations from me. What ever you are happy and comfortable with. Brother you said,

"I was convinced that Sunni Islam is a beautiful and wise religion",

Was the only reason for this that you were not satisfied and sure about certain Shia issues or did you actually look in to Sunnis version of Islam as well???

there were some reason to i leave shia. Shi’ite View of the Companions is not right.have been searching about shia and sunni for 6 years .

in shia aqidah just accept 4 or 3  sahaba! the Shia do not accept bilal habashi and suhaib rumi and khabbab ibn al-aratt and abdullah ibn salam and kebab ibn manzar and...
 الكليني عن حنان بن سدير عن أبيه عن أبي جعفر أنه قال: "كان الناس أهل ردة بعد النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) إلا ثلاثة فقلت: ومن الثلاثة فقال: المقداد بن الأسود وأبو ذر الغفاري وسلمان الفارسي, واختلفوا في عددهم فمنهم من زاد عن هذا العدد. والصحابة عند الشيعة قسمان
its true!! just 3 or for sahaba!!
shia believe that the Quran has a esoteric/hidden meaning that is different from its apparent meaning and only their Imams know this esoteric/hidden meaning, not even prophet Mohammad knew this esoteric/hidden meaning!
and shia scholars believe quran was changed by uthman!!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-DKWiRqJYc

and some another reasons...
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Siamak on February 21, 2015, 12:01:08 AM
I searched for another religion, but nothing appealed to me.
I read the Qur'an each night before bedtime and it took four months to read it all. When I finished it, I decided to read it again, and again and now it has become a happy habit to read the Qur'an after my night time bath and before I go to sleep.i nobody can find shia aidah in quran.shia views isnt in quran.they believe  to 12 of imam but cant improve their aqidah in ouran and ...
After 4 years of careful consideration, I decided to revert tosunni Islam. This is the religion I want to be part of.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Furkan on February 21, 2015, 12:06:32 AM
May Allah strengthen this religion trough you brother.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Ameen on February 21, 2015, 01:26:53 AM
Thanks for the reply brother Siamak. Jazakallah. Brother, Hazrath Usman (ra) changed the Quran, this is not the view of the Shias. People have difference in thought, opinion and point of view, it doesn't matter which ever school of thought or what ever sect they belong to, be it Shia or Sunni.

Typing from my phone at work. Will get back to you!
 
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 21, 2015, 01:29:26 AM
`Uthman changed the Qur'an? Explain what you mean by "Changed" (You better not mean corrupted).
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Ameen on February 21, 2015, 01:52:50 AM
`Uthman changed the Qur'an? Explain what you mean by "Changed" (You better not mean corrupted).

Who is your question to???


Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 21, 2015, 02:00:49 AM
TO YOU.

Simple, question: What do you mean by "changed"? What did he change?
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 21, 2015, 10:36:42 AM
Assalaamu 'alaikum WR WB
My name is Siamak, left shia in 2008.im from iran.One of the biggest reasons I left Shiism is because almost all of the Shii theories have no Qur'anic backing. One of those happens to be the concept of Imamah - 'Ali's succession, 12 Imams, Divinely appointed Imams after Rasul Allah (saw) e.t.c.. The more I was reading (also Sunnah, Hadith, etc.) the more I was convinced that the sunni Islam is actually a beautiful and wise religion.
but im living in iran.In the recent past, shias are spreading so wast in iran.The websites, the media, the handbills and many more materials which promote shiism are encouraging the youth by calling them towards so called shia revert and claiming some sunni converted to shia specially towards palestine morocco algeria egypt
Well, I am not backbiting, but I want to know the truth about this news
From some iranian sources(media , website) I got to know some sunnis in palestine morocco algeria egypt converted to shia
Is that true? Can anyone give me authentic information about them?
But I am in a dire need of knowing whether they are converted to shia, 'coz I am writing an awareness article for the local youth (Against Shiya) and I need AUTHENTIC facts about them as well ('coz the muslims here are shia craziest fans !!)
Someone plz help me with it Insha Allah
-If this post is not appropriate Admins plz do remove it

you realize the video of the "scholar" you just posted was kicked out of the seminary school in Iran right? He is not a reliable person. That being said, I don't know any reliable scholar who says the Qur'an was changed.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Siamak on February 21, 2015, 12:07:27 PM
`Uthman changed the Qur'an? Explain what you mean by "Changed" (You better not mean corrupted).
my meant some shia scolars believe  that there is distortion  in Quran. you can find some narrations in Shia books discuss  reffer to "Tahreef".and in shia resurces  discuss Quran has been wilfully distorted because the present Quran does not contain evidence that supports the core doctrines of Shiism, most importantly, the Imamate doctrine. they believe original Quran was compiled by Imam Ali, and later passed on to his descendent Imams.
sorry for my weak english  im persian
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Siamak on February 21, 2015, 12:14:40 PM
Assalaamu 'alaikum WR WB
My name is Siamak, left shia in 2008.im from iran.One of the biggest reasons I left Shiism is because almost all of the Shii theories have no Qur'anic backing. One of those happens to be the concept of Imamah - 'Ali's succession, 12 Imams, Divinely appointed Imams after Rasul Allah (saw) e.t.c.. The more I was reading (also Sunnah, Hadith, etc.) the more I was convinced that the sunni Islam is actually a beautiful and wise religion.
but im living in iran.In the recent past, shias are spreading so wast in iran.The websites, the media, the handbills and many more materials which promote shiism are encouraging the youth by calling them towards so called shia revert and claiming some sunni converted to shia specially towards palestine morocco algeria egypt
Well, I am not backbiting, but I want to know the truth about this news
From some iranian sources(media , website) I got to know some sunnis in palestine morocco algeria egypt converted to shia
Is that true? Can anyone give me authentic information about them?
But I am in a dire need of knowing whether they are converted to shia, 'coz I am writing an awareness article for the local youth (Against Shiya) and I need AUTHENTIC facts about them as well ('coz the muslims here are shia craziest fans !!)
Someone plz help me with it Insha Allah
-If this post is not appropriate Admins plz do remove it

you realize the video of the "scholar" you just posted was kicked out of the seminary school in Iran right? He is not a reliable person. That being said, I don't know any reliable scholar who says the Qur'an was changed.
yes true but there are some narration in  classical Shia books discuss "Tahreef" (Distortion of the Quran) .
Shia narrator, Abu Baseer, reported that he said to Shia's Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq: "O Abu Abdullah (Imam Ja'far), what is Mus-haf Fatimah?" He replied "It is a Qur'an containing three times what is found in your copy of the Qur'an; yet by Allah, it does not contain even a single letter from your Qur'an." (Al-Kafi p. 385)
but they are practicing it to hide their beliefs
In a narration, Shia falsely attribut to the 8th Shia Imam, Ali bin Musa, he said: “ The one who is not wari (pious) has no religion and the one who does not practice Taqiyyah has no Iman ( deep faith).” So he was asked, "O grandson of the Messenger, until when (is one required to practice Taqiyyah)?" He replied, “Until a certain day (i.e. the day Imam Mahdi appears). Whoever does not practice Taqiyyah before the appearance of Imam Mahdi, is not one of us.” (Kashf al-Ghummah Al-Ardabili, pg. 341).
 
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 21, 2015, 01:52:33 PM
Assalaamu 'alaikum WR WB
My name is Siamak, left shia in 2008.im from iran.One of the biggest reasons I left Shiism is because almost all of the Shii theories have no Qur'anic backing. One of those happens to be the concept of Imamah - 'Ali's succession, 12 Imams, Divinely appointed Imams after Rasul Allah (saw) e.t.c.. The more I was reading (also Sunnah, Hadith, etc.) the more I was convinced that the sunni Islam is actually a beautiful and wise religion.
but im living in iran.In the recent past, shias are spreading so wast in iran.The websites, the media, the handbills and many more materials which promote shiism are encouraging the youth by calling them towards so called shia revert and claiming some sunni converted to shia specially towards palestine morocco algeria egypt
Well, I am not backbiting, but I want to know the truth about this news
From some iranian sources(media , website) I got to know some sunnis in palestine morocco algeria egypt converted to shia
Is that true? Can anyone give me authentic information about them?
But I am in a dire need of knowing whether they are converted to shia, 'coz I am writing an awareness article for the local youth (Against Shiya) and I need AUTHENTIC facts about them as well ('coz the muslims here are shia craziest fans !!)
Someone plz help me with it Insha Allah
-If this post is not appropriate Admins plz do remove it

you realize the video of the "scholar" you just posted was kicked out of the seminary school in Iran right? He is not a reliable person. That being said, I don't know any reliable scholar who says the Qur'an was changed.
yes true but there are some narration in  classical Shia books discuss "Tahreef" (Distortion of the Quran) .
Shia narrator, Abu Baseer, reported that he said to Shia's Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq: "O Abu Abdullah (Imam Ja'far), what is Mus-haf Fatimah?" He replied "It is a Qur'an containing three times what is found in your copy of the Qur'an; yet by Allah, it does not contain even a single letter from your Qur'an." (Al-Kafi p. 385)
but they are practicing it to hide their beliefs
In a narration, Shia falsely attribut to the 8th Shia Imam, Ali bin Musa, he said: “ The one who is not wari (pious) has no religion and the one who does not practice Taqiyyah has no Iman ( deep faith).” So he was asked, "O grandson of the Messenger, until when (is one required to practice Taqiyyah)?" He replied, “Until a certain day (i.e. the day Imam Mahdi appears). Whoever does not practice Taqiyyah before the appearance of Imam Mahdi, is not one of us.” (Kashf al-Ghummah Al-Ardabili, pg. 341).

Again, find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an. They may believe that another book exists with other knowledges, but that doesn't mean its in comparison with the holy Qur'an.

And about Taqiyyah what is wrong with it? All muslims believe in Taqiyyah, it is in the Qur'an. Shias believe you can use it to save your life, just as the rest of muslims do.

Sunni and Shi'a commentators alike observe that verse 16:106 refers to the case of 'Ammar b. Yasir, who was forced to renounce his beliefs under physical duress and torture.

"Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment" - 16:106 (The holy Qur'an)
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 21, 2015, 03:24:12 PM

Again, find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an. They may believe that another book exists with other knowledges, but that doesn't mean its in comparison with the holy Qur'an.


Let me give it a shot,

Al-Noori al-Tabrasi, big Shia Muhaddith and author of Mustadrak al-Wasa'il. He's reliable and believes in Tahreef right?
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 21, 2015, 03:49:23 PM
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 21, 2015, 05:02:31 PM
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.


You said: "find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an."

I found you one.

Do you wish for me to find you another? Because I can easily find you another.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 21, 2015, 05:45:58 PM
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.


You said: "find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an."

I found you one.

Do you wish for me to find you another? Because I can easily find you another.

I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?

 
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Ameen on February 21, 2015, 07:31:05 PM
TO YOU.

Simple, question: What do you mean by "changed"? What did he change?

What do you mean??? Are you paying attention??? Brother Siamak said that Shias believe Hazrath Usman (ra) changed the Quran. I replied that Shias do not believe in this. This is not the core belief of the Shia and this is not part of Shiaism. People have their thought, opinion and point of view based on individual level. And this is how it should be seen.

Even you turn around and say that so and so Lebanese Shia Shaikh said this and that Shia scholar said that. Brother don't cherry pick statements and views of people on an individual level and use it to label and target the entire Shia faith and community.

It doesn't matter whether you are a Shia or Sunni, Muslim or not your individual and personal views belong to you and has nothing to do with your sect, religion or community. People need to stop labelling and targeting sects and communities just because of the statements and views of certain individuals.

Is there anything difficult to understand here??? Shias do not believe in Tehreef e Quran and do not believe that anyone changed or altered the Quran. If this isn't simple and straight forward then I don't know what is.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Ameen on February 21, 2015, 08:00:33 PM
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.


You said: "find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an."

I found you one.

Do you wish for me to find you another? Because I can easily find you another.

Ok, lets look at this from a different angle. How many Shia scholars believe in Tehreef e Quran and how many don't??? It is a core belief of the Shia and vast majority do not believe in Tehreef e Quran. Those one or two odd scholars or individuals who do, what has that got to do with all the rest of us???

This is propaganda, to get hold of statements and views of one or two odd scholars or individuals and try to pinpoint and target the entire Shia faith and community over this. We don't do this and we neither practice this. Why are you so disparate???
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Ameen on February 21, 2015, 08:03:34 PM
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.


You said: "find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an."

I found you one.

Do you wish for me to find you another? Because I can easily find you another.

I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?

 

"So why generalise the whole sect"??? The answer is, PROPAGANDA! Otherwise if there is another reason to this then I would like to here it.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 22, 2015, 01:13:02 AM
I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?
 

Well, he's the author of one your eight main books, along with the first three Muhammadeen and the last three Muhammadeen.

How about Majlisi? Jaza'iri? `Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi? Janabidhi? etc...

Any of these names rings a bell?
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hadrami on February 22, 2015, 04:53:56 AM
I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?
 

Well, he's the author of one your eight main books, along with the first three Muhammadeen and the last three Muhammadeen.

How about Majlisi? Jaza'iri? `Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi? Janabidhi? etc...

Any of these names rings a bell?

take it easy bro. you can tell hes just another ameen who doesnt know much about his own religion or hes practising 9/10 of his religion aka lying :)
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 22, 2015, 12:23:49 PM
I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?
 

Well, he's the author of one your eight main books, along with the first three Muhammadeen and the last three Muhammadeen.

How about Majlisi? Jaza'iri? `Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi? Janabidhi? etc...

Any of these names rings a bell?

Even though your point doesn't really make a difference, can you at least show me sources in english?

Again I can find sunni sheikhs that support ISIS, great sunni sheikhs that said terrible things about Ali (ra), and other terrible things.... does that mean all Sunnis believe in these things? Of course not.

Stop claiming that all or even the majority of shias believe in tahreef when its not true. I mean two can play at that game.... all sunnis practice misyar.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Furkan on February 22, 2015, 06:18:55 PM
Hani, I suggest you fire the whole magazine.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Rationalist on February 22, 2015, 07:25:59 PM

Stop claiming that all or even the majority of shias believe in tahreef when its not true. I mean two can play at that game.... all sunnis practice misyar.
The issue is the majority doesn't declare the 12ers who believe the Quran to be incomplete to be kaffirs.

Quote
Even though your point doesn't really make a difference, can you at least show me sources in english?
Here you go.

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/09/hadeeth-17000-verses-in-quraan-saheeh.html
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Ameen on February 22, 2015, 11:22:12 PM
I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?
 

Well, he's the author of one your eight main books, along with the first three Muhammadeen and the last three Muhammadeen.

How about Majlisi? Jaza'iri? `Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi? Janabidhi? etc...

Any of these names rings a bell?

take it easy bro. you can tell hes just another ameen who doesnt know much about his own religion or hes practising 9/10 of his religion aka lying :)

Just another Ameen who doesn't know much about his own religion??? Here we go again! You sound so desperate. I don't know my self but you seem to know me better??? Wow! Some ideology we have here. Ok, I am a human but if you say that I'm an alien and are hell bent on believing in it then, what more can I say or do apart from leaving you with it.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hadrami on February 23, 2015, 04:25:27 AM
so what if people see you as either ignorant about shitism or lying through your teeth Ameen?

Id love to think no shia in this information age would be as ignorant & clueless about shitism as you. So me saying youre pretending not to know is like saying youre not a liar :) Cheer up
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 23, 2015, 09:33:14 AM

Stop claiming that all or even the majority of shias believe in tahreef when its not true. I mean two can play at that game.... all sunnis practice misyar.
The issue is the majority doesn't declare the 12ers who believe the Quran to be incomplete to be kaffirs.

Quote
Even though your point doesn't really make a difference, can you at least show me sources in english?
Here you go.

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/09/hadeeth-17000-verses-in-quraan-saheeh.html

So let me get this straight, you post a million times how shias believe in tahreef but say that's not the main point?  You are spreading false propaganda, half the threads on this forum people are claiming that shias believe in tahreef because of your lies.

The problem here is that you want to label everyone outside of Islam who doesn't agree with you. Do you know how big of a sin it is to claim other muslims to be kaffirs? Even ibn taymiyyah (who was hypocritical about this issue) said takfirism is one of the biggest sins of all time.


And about your source, I am not a hadith expert. There are two explanations I have found on the matter.

If the hadith is correct, then it is talking about the commentary that was also revealed to the prophet (pbuh). Again, tahreef of the verses of Qur'an is a complete lie. The vast vast vast vast majority of shia scholars do not believe in tahreef.

Another explanation I have researched says that the hadith is not correct, and here is the reasoning.

Kulaini was never alive to meet Ali ibn Al-Hakam

He died in 329H and he was born in the second half of the third century. There was nearly 50 years between his birth and death of imam ridha (as)

Hakam was a comapnion of Ridha (as) who died in 203H

It would be impossible for Kulaini to narrate from Al-Righa without a wasita and sometimes two more than one wasita like this hadith from al kafi.


Regardless if the hadith is true or not, Shias do not believe in Tahreef... stop being A sunni version of Fox news and spreading lies.

Your arguments are weak.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Bolani Muslim on February 23, 2015, 12:03:46 PM
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 23, 2015, 12:17:54 PM
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/

You didn't even read my post.

1. Why do you accept weak hadith and portray all shias as practicing it?
2. Even your buddy on the forum admitted that shias do not practice tahreef.
3. Sunni scholars also believe in Tahreef -> Link to hadith below
Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah.
Narrated Aisha 'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

4. Why did you leave shiasm, because you listen to strangers on the internet on forums and facebook? Honestly half the stuff you post against shiasm is from blogs, and the stuff you learned from shiasm is probably from satellite channels.
 
5. Why not read about shiasm from real sources, not people like fadallah who aren't even considered ayatollahs by 99% of shia scholars. All of your knowledge you have from shias are from weak hadith, and I am doubting to believe your story of "converting", because I have no idea how you can believe the stuff you are spewing.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hadrami on February 23, 2015, 12:40:05 PM
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/

You can show this one, it's from shitism scholar's mouth. One of shia greatest scholar said the proofs for belief in tahrif is as many as belief in imamah. Still you hear shia saying they don't belief in such a stuff  :D

Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 23, 2015, 01:06:17 PM
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/

You can show this one, it's from shitism scholar's mouth. One of shia greatest scholar said the proofs for belief in tahrif is as many as belief in imamah. Still you hear shia saying they don't belief in such a stuff  :D





Why don't you post the entire video, why just four minutes? Sayyid Kamal is criticizing Allamah al Majlisi if you watched the full video. Yes, the usual clips and crops by America-funded nasibi "RafidiTerminator" and the stupid sectarian salafis actually believe it. Good job Salafi Fox News.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Rationalist on February 23, 2015, 01:09:59 PM

And about Taqiyyah what is wrong with it? All muslims believe in Taqiyyah, it is in the Qur'an. Shias believe you can use it to save your life, just as the rest of muslims do.

Sunni and Shi'a commentators alike observe that verse 16:106 refers to the case of 'Ammar b. Yasir, who was forced to renounce his beliefs under physical duress and torture.

For the 12ers its not only for death situations. For them taqiyyah includes covering the hatred they have against Sunni Islam. Also, Al Khoie's fatwa permits that a 12er can lie in debates to promote his or her madhab.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: labelingtheory on February 23, 2015, 01:20:45 PM

And about Taqiyyah what is wrong with it? All muslims believe in Taqiyyah, it is in the Qur'an. Shias believe you can use it to save your life, just as the rest of muslims do.

Sunni and Shi'a commentators alike observe that verse 16:106 refers to the case of 'Ammar b. Yasir, who was forced to renounce his beliefs under physical duress and torture.

For the 12ers its not only for death situations. For them taqiyyah includes covering the hatred they have against Sunni Islam. Also, Al Khoie's fatwa permits that a 12er can lie in debates to promote his or her madhab.

Show me the fatwa in english from a shia website, because honestly I don't trust your translation.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Rationalist on February 23, 2015, 01:48:00 PM

Show me the fatwa in english from a shia website, because honestly I don't trust your translation.

I provided the 12er Shia link. Get someone to verify it.

Grand Ayatullah Al Khoei'i Says in reply to a question in one of his books(Sirat al Najat / صراط النجاة):


1245: هل يجوز الكذب على المبدع أو مروج الضلال في مقام الاحتجاج عليه إذا كان الكذب يدحض حجته ويبطل دعاويه الباطلة؟ الخوئي: إذا توقف رد باطله عليه جاز

Question"1245": Is it Possible to Lie or produce Arguments which contain Lies when Debating with a person who Is a Follower of Bida'a (Innovation) and a spreader or Dala'la (Ignorance) If this Lie would Destroy my Opponent's Arguments?

Imam Khoei'i Answers: If it will stop his Falsehood then it is Permissible to do So.
http://www.yasoob.org/books/htm1/m001/06/no0645.html
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: MuslimK on February 23, 2015, 02:09:49 PM
^ They also have a narration attributed to Sajjad ordering the Shia to slander, backbite and lie upon the Sunnis.
 
( إذا رأيتم أهل البدع والريب غير الشيعي أو الشيعي المهتدي فأظهروا البراءة منهم وأكثروا من سبهم والقول فيهم والوقيعة ، وباهتوهم اي ابهتوهم بالكذب والبهتان كي لا يطمعوا في الفساد في الإسلام ويحذرهم الناس )[ تنبيه الخواطر ج 2 ص 162] . [ وسائل الشيعة ج 11 ص 508] .
[ نهج الإنتصار ص 152] .

Imam Al-sajjad (as) said: If you see people of suspicion and innovation other than shias or new shia then show disownment from them and abuse them much, backbit them, make false accusations on them that is, backbite them by attributing lies on them and make false accusations on them.

[tanbiah al-khawatir v.2 p.162,  wasael al-shia v.11 p. 508, Nahj al-intisaar p.152]

Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Husayn on February 23, 2015, 02:13:25 PM
Not only lying, but stealing is also permissible.

I was once given a book by a Sunni friend. The book was an expose on Khomeini and some of his fatawa - with regard to the Companions, Wives of the Prophet, his opinion of Ahlul Sunnah, and some apparently weird things he did in Iraq (of a sexual nature) and some of his fatawa with regard to sexual acts with infants.

Anyway - I gave it to a learned one at my mosque, and basically, instead of refuting it, he threw it in the bin, and told me to tell my Sunni friend that we lost it.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 23, 2015, 03:38:34 PM
^ "Amanah" or TRUST, should have prevented him from throwing someone else's possession in a trash bin. Especially that it contains the word "Allah".
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hadrami on February 24, 2015, 12:09:34 AM
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/

You can show this one, it's from shitism scholar's mouth. One of shia greatest scholar said the proofs for belief in tahrif is as many as belief in imamah. Still you hear shia saying they don't belief in such a stuff  :D





Why don't you post the entire video, why just four minutes? Sayyid Kamal is criticizing Allamah al Majlisi if you watched the full video. Yes, the usual clips and crops by America-funded nasibi "RafidiTerminator" and the stupid sectarian salafis actually believe it. Good job Salafi Fox News.

Are you an idiot? No one is trying to hide anything. In that video he criticised al-Majlisi. You are the one whos trying to hide the fact that Tahrif is a popular belief among your Biggest scholars.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hadrami on February 24, 2015, 12:24:00 AM
Anyway - I gave it to a learned one at my mosque, and basically, instead of refuting it, he threw it in the bin, and told me to tell my Sunni friend that we lost it.

So that learned shia have all the qualities of a thief, a liar & a coward all in one.

And what did you tell your sunni friend? You ended up lying or took the book from the bin?
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Husayn on February 24, 2015, 12:28:40 AM
Unfortunately, I told my friend that I lost it - I was about 15-16 at the time, was just starting to become an extremist rafidi.

And this "learned one" that I mentioned was the Sayyid/Imam at the mosque - very respected figure.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Bolani Muslim on February 24, 2015, 01:43:47 AM
I asked my mullah once why do Sunnis say (ra) and not (as) for non-prophets? His response was that Sunnis only say (as) for Yazid, lol.
This is coming from a guy who claims one of his main studies in Qom was research into other sects of Islam.
Title: Re: convert and question
Post by: Hani on February 24, 2015, 02:16:13 AM
Interesting, means these guys are just plainly fooling their followers... SubhanAllah. Muhammad (saw) would never treat his followers like such.

Quote
America-funded nasibi "RafidiTerminator"

America funded? Dude, we know the guy personally, he's an Arab living in the Arab world, nowhere near being "American-funded", besides what funding would it require to make these simple amateur videos? He's just cutting parts from Shia lectures and clips online and translating them.
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: Rationalist on February 24, 2015, 04:42:59 AM
^ They also have a narration attributed to Sajjad ordering the Shia to slander, backbite and lie upon the Sunnis.
 
( إذا رأيتم أهل البدع والريب غير الشيعي أو الشيعي المهتدي فأظهروا البراءة منهم وأكثروا من سبهم والقول فيهم والوقيعة ، وباهتوهم اي ابهتوهم بالكذب والبهتان كي لا يطمعوا في الفساد في الإسلام ويحذرهم الناس )[ تنبيه الخواطر ج 2 ص 162] . [ وسائل الشيعة ج 11 ص 508] .
[ نهج الإنتصار ص 152] .

Imam Al-sajjad (as) said: If you see people of suspicion and innovation other than shias or new shia then show disownment from them and abuse them much, backbit them, make false accusations on them that is, backbite them by attributing lies on them and make false accusations on them.

[tanbiah al-khawatir v.2 p.162,  wasael al-shia v.11 p. 508, Nahj al-intisaar p.152]



I also got corrected on shi'achat by a 12er  who said Taqiyyah isn't only for death situations in their madhab.


Q Since when is this taqiyah ? This is just practicing good character. Taqiyah is done when you present your belief and you'llget killed as a result.


That's just one side of it. As you see in the link I posted, part of taqiyya is even praying in the first row at Sunni masajid, visiting their homes and funerals, etc. The point is we cannot be openly against what you believe as the majority, because that risks the bond between Muslims and sometimes it even risks our lives. Many of the early Shi'ah even had kept it a secret that they were Shi'i.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234971164-taqiya-the-shia-concept/?p=1986660
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: Hani on February 24, 2015, 04:50:39 AM
Lewd and dishonorable teachings
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: sawaaiq on February 24, 2015, 09:59:20 PM
Quote
Why don't you post the entire video, why just four minutes? Sayyid Kamal is criticizing Allamah al Majlisi if you watched the full video. Yes, the usual clips and crops by America-funded nasibi "RafidiTerminator" and the stupid sectarian salafis actually believe it. Good job Salafi Fox News.

Where's the proof, Ameen and Labelling lie in every post they make
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: MissyB786 on March 10, 2015, 01:43:50 AM
I don't understand when the evidence is given from their literature/scholars/books, they still say what 'RELIABLE' shia scholar/'RELIABLE' shia book says that. 

Ok if they don't believe the evidence given to them, perhaps they shud bring evidence to support their claims that they dont believe that.
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: Furkan on March 10, 2015, 02:35:24 AM
It's a cult, that's why.

A shiite responded to me once like this:

" First I have to send this to my marja, i have to wait a month maybe, and then I can see if it's really like that or not"

Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: Hadrami on March 10, 2015, 05:43:52 AM
It's a cult, that's why.

A shiite responded to me once like this:

" First I have to send this to my marja, i have to wait a month maybe, and then I can see if it's really like that or not"



i suppose youre still waiting for him after months? :D
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: Furkan on March 10, 2015, 12:01:08 PM
Lol no. I gave up. Pointless discussing with them.
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: labelingtheory on March 10, 2015, 04:53:37 PM
Lol no. I gave up. Pointless discussing with them.

Maybe you should talk to legitimate scholars instead of talking to random people on the internet.
Every time I post here I get multiple people calling me a rafiza, liar, or am told I am doing taqiyya. There is really no reason to be on this forum since even if I dispute the lies I still get slandered and am told that I am probably lying anyways.

Thank you for the one or two people that actually have aklhaq on this forum and have replied to my posts, if I am ever on here it will be to reply to those people. The amount of trolls here is enough reason to leave.
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: Khaled on March 10, 2015, 08:17:00 PM

Maybe you should talk to legitimate scholars...

السلام عليكم

Can you give us a name of a legitimate scholar?  Who do you refer to when you have an issue?  Do you refer to just one Marji3 or do you go to different ones depending on whether you're asking a question on a different topics?  I.e. you go to a certain Marji3 if you have questions on fiqh, and a certain Marji3 if you have a question aqeedah etc.  بارك الله فيك
Title: Re: convert and question - former Shia
Post by: Furkan on March 10, 2015, 08:22:43 PM
People will take you guys seriously if you start reading what TS team has written already on their page. You guys keep coming with the same stuff over and over. For example: Accusing Umar of tahreef, shows the ignorance of the rafidi because the rafidi just repeats what he has read on other websites without even researching what Abrogation of quran verses means.