TwelverShia.net Forum

Depictions of Holy People

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Ebn Hussein

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2015, 11:51:19 AM »
why don't you
I don't care what Ebn Hussein has to say, quite honestly.  Without his inappropriate polemics/propaganda, who knows, I might have become Sunni by now.  So far, it is only Farid and sometimes Hani and Hadrami that are intelligent on this site.  Whenever I see a post of Ebn Hussein, I am reminded of what Sunnis are once they remove their veil of lies.  As for Persian Majoos, you guys are the ones that pray like them with your hands folded.

Folding hands in prayer has been narrated by over 20 sahaba+Ahl Al-Bayt, so the fairy-tale about it being from the Majoos is nothing but a cheap shot (hence the best Shias can offer is to post some MESOPOTAMIAN i.e. not Persian statues who stand with their hands folded, I can post loads of such pictures with their hands falling at their sides, that's not academical). The reason you ignore is because you are embarassed and you have nothing to offer, what shall you answer back anyway, realising that your 12 house dwelling "Imams" are drawn like Persian homosexuals? Miskeen, wallah.
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Furkan

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2015, 12:56:36 PM »
There are narrations in Shia books which tell to fold the hands (for women).

Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Optimus Prime

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2015, 04:43:58 PM »
^ The first hadeeth has potential tadlees in it.

As for the second two, I have no objections.

Would a mod please edit out the two pictures I posted in the original post, please?  You can maybe replace them with [Picture of Muhammad holding the Qur'an] and [Picture of Muhammad holding Zulfiqar] or something like that so that the context will not be lost. Ya3ni I'm not trying to hide what I did, I don't care if people know. Just want the pictures taken down inshaAllah.

(btw, to all you argumentative fools, this is how you correct someone -- post the evidence. Don't ask what's wrong with me, just show me why I'm wrong)

Tadlees?

Optimus Prime

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2015, 04:44:29 PM »
Can someone quote Sunni and Shia hadiths for this fiqh ruling

It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah the Mother of the Believers that Umm Habeebah and Umm Salamah mentioned a church that they had seen in Abyssinia, in which there were images. They mentioned it to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said: “Those people, if there was a righteous man among them and he died, they would build a place of worship over his grave and put those images in it. They will be among the most evil of creation before Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.” (narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Salaah, 409).

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back from a journey and I had placed a curtain of mine that had pictures on it over (the door of) a room of mine. When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw it, he tore it and said, ‘The people who will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection will be those who try to make the like of Allaah’s creation.’ So we turned it (the curtain) into one or two cushions.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Libaas, 5498).

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: “I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘The people who will be most severely punished on the Day of Resurrection will be the image-makers.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Libaas, 5494). 

@mod

please change the first hadith with this one....

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ أُمَّ حَبِيبَةَ، وَأُمَّ سَلَمَةَ ذَكَرَتَا كَنِيسَةً رَأَيْنَهَا بِالْحَبَشَةِ فِيهَا تَصَاوِيرُ، فَذَكَرَتَا لِلنَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ إِنَّ أُولَئِكَ إِذَا كَانَ فِيهِمُ الرَّجُلُ الصَّالِحُ فَمَاتَ بَنَوْا عَلَى قَبْرِهِ مَسْجِدًا، وَصَوَّرُوا فِيهِ تِلْكَ الصُّوَرَ، فَأُولَئِكَ شِرَارُ الْخَلْقِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ‏"‏‏.‏

Um Habiba and Um Salama mentioned about a church they had seen in Ethiopia in which there were pictures. They told the Prophet (ﷺ) about it, on which he said, "If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection."((narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Salaah, 419)


What's the difference, brother?

Ameen

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2015, 05:23:44 PM »
why don't you
I don't care what Ebn Hussein has to say, quite honestly.  Without his inappropriate polemics/propaganda, who knows, I might have become Sunni by now.  So far, it is only Farid and sometimes Hani and Hadrami that are intelligent on this site.  Whenever I see a post of Ebn Hussein, I am reminded of what Sunnis are once they remove their veil of lies.  As for Persian Majoos, you guys are the ones that pray like them with your hands folded.

Folding hands in prayer has been narrated by over 20 sahaba+Ahl Al-Bayt, so the fairy-tale about it being from the Majoos is nothing but a cheap shot (hence the best Shias can offer is to post some MESOPOTAMIAN i.e. not Persian statues who stand with their hands folded, I can post loads of such pictures with their hands falling at their sides, that's not academical). The reason you ignore is because you are embarassed and you have nothing to offer, what shall you answer back anyway, realising that your 12 house dwelling "Imams" are drawn like Persian homosexuals? Miskeen, wallah.

You have posted a lot of pictures with plenty of information along with them. But when questioned, when asked for an explanation/justification, when discussed about the accuracy and authenticity of that information and request for the other side of the argument/story then, you start to make a run for it. What have you discussed up till now??? Putting pictures and info forward is easy but explaining and justifying it is your main problem. Carry on accusing and abusing, keep up the malicious statements and the vicious attacks. It's the very best you can do. We know you are good at something, after all.

Ebn Hussein

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2015, 06:59:01 PM »
No Ameen, it's just that you always turn a blind eye to evidences, my posts are mostly filled with quran, ayat, athar etc. whereas your posts are just emotional rants. Again just for you, watch this video and understand where the transexual Persian looking images of your Persian deities (which you think are your Imams) come from:

(this is an analyses, so you keep ignoring everything, just know others will not)

الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Furkan

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2015, 07:10:48 PM »
Yes Ameen. Check your messages plz
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Bolani Muslim

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2015, 09:36:44 PM »
There are narrations in Shia books which tell to fold the hands (for women).


This is from Nader Zaveri's (shia) website http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/10/women-pray-with-hands-on-chest-in.html?m=1

Furkan

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2015, 09:46:29 PM »
Bolani muslim, thanks bro.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

adnan42

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2015, 12:43:10 AM »
Can someone quote Sunni and Shia hadiths for this fiqh ruling

It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah the Mother of the Believers that Umm Habeebah and Umm Salamah mentioned a church that they had seen in Abyssinia, in which there were images. They mentioned it to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said: “Those people, if there was a righteous man among them and he died, they would build a place of worship over his grave and put those images in it. They will be among the most evil of creation before Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.” (narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Salaah, 409).

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back from a journey and I had placed a curtain of mine that had pictures on it over (the door of) a room of mine. When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw it, he tore it and said, ‘The people who will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection will be those who try to make the like of Allaah’s creation.’ So we turned it (the curtain) into one or two cushions.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Libaas, 5498).

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: “I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘The people who will be most severely punished on the Day of Resurrection will be the image-makers.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Libaas, 5494). 

@mod

please change the first hadith with this one....

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ أُمَّ حَبِيبَةَ، وَأُمَّ سَلَمَةَ ذَكَرَتَا كَنِيسَةً رَأَيْنَهَا بِالْحَبَشَةِ فِيهَا تَصَاوِيرُ، فَذَكَرَتَا لِلنَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ إِنَّ أُولَئِكَ إِذَا كَانَ فِيهِمُ الرَّجُلُ الصَّالِحُ فَمَاتَ بَنَوْا عَلَى قَبْرِهِ مَسْجِدًا، وَصَوَّرُوا فِيهِ تِلْكَ الصُّوَرَ، فَأُولَئِكَ شِرَارُ الْخَلْقِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ‏"‏‏.‏

Um Habiba and Um Salama mentioned about a church they had seen in Ethiopia in which there were pictures. They told the Prophet (ﷺ) about it, on which he said, "If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection."((narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Salaah, 419)


What's the difference, brother?

look same to me brother.. ask taha why he thought there was tadless in it

Furkan

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2015, 12:57:50 AM »
Admin changed it already thats why. I think
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

adnan42

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2015, 01:10:23 AM »
Admin changed it already thats why. I think

nope still the same. admin haven't changed it as of yet....
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 01:13:03 AM by adnan42 »

Rationalist

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2015, 03:21:15 AM »
Here is a 12er Shia Imam lookalike.


Taha

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2015, 06:38:15 PM »
There are narrations in Shia books which tell to fold the hands (for women).
As far as I'm aware, it doesn't say they should fold the hands, rather it says they should place them over their breasts (for modesty).  Of course, nobody really follows that anymore, but even if they did, it isn't the same as crossing one arm over the other like the Sunni do.

Tadlees?
It's sort of hard to explain and hopefully one of the more knowledgeable brothers can explain it better, but I'll give it a shot.

Tadlees is when there is a discrepancy between the isnad and the actual real chain that occurred, with one or more narrators being left out but without the blank spot being noted.  It's sort of similar to mursal (has a gap in the chain) but not really the same.  Maybe an example will help explain it better.

Narrated A who heard from B who reported that he heard C say that his father, D, said that Muhammad (s.a.w) said such and such.

Narrated A who heard from B from C that his father, D, said that Muhammad (s.a.w) said such and such.

See the part that says "B from C"?  It isn't explicit that B heard from the mouth of C.  For all we know, B could have heard someone else say that C said such and such.  And this other person that B heard from might be a fabricator.  Hence, tadlees. 

In that particular hadeeth, Aisha doesn't say how she came to know of the event.  Did she witness it?  Did someone tell her?  It is unknown.

Rationalist

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2015, 08:53:15 AM »

As far as I'm aware, it doesn't say they should fold the hands, rather it says they should place them over their breasts (for modesty).  Of course, nobody really follows that anymore, but even if they did, it isn't the same as crossing one arm over the other like the Sunni do.
These days they place their hands on their thighs. I wonder who invited this method?

Taha

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2015, 01:11:31 AM »
These days they place their hands on their thighs. I wonder who invited this method?

The placing of hands over the breasts is for women only.  Men are still expected to leave them at the sides.  I have heard that there is at least one source that says on your legs, but I don't know for sure.

Rationalist

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2015, 12:02:48 AM »
That just show flexibility.

Anyway since topic is about depiction, and you are okay with it, then we can have an agreement that this guy looks like one of your imams depicted. In fact, he looks more like the Shia painting then any Syed I have seen in my lifetime.




 

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