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Depictions of Holy People

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Taha

Depictions of Holy People
« on: January 15, 2015, 04:37:58 AM »
This is a break-away thread from the Umar series thread.


What is the Sunni view on depicting people such as the Holy Prophet (sawa), Imam Ali (as), the Sahabah (ra), etc?


I think as long as they're done in a respectful way, it's okay.  If you agree it's okay, post what you have.  There were some pictures of Imam Ali in the other thread.  Let's collect all the good ones here.














Don't hate just because of the text on the second one  ;)

Husayn

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 04:49:08 AM »
Why would we hate "Man Kuntu Mawlahu fa Hatha 'Aliyun Mawlahu"?

The "text" as you put it is from an authentic Sunni hadith, not a Shi'a one.

My view, personally, is that it is shameful to depict the Sahaba - especially depicting them as transexuals (like those pics).

Astaghfirulah
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Taha

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 06:53:10 AM »
Why would we hate "Man Kuntu Mawlahu fa Hatha 'Aliyun Mawlahu"?
It is a thorn in the side of every Sunni.

My view, personally, is that it is shameful to depict the Sahaba - especially depicting them as transexuals (like those pics).
So, to be clear, it is shameful what you did on the Umar thread??

And those pictures (that I posted) aren't of the Sahabah, they are of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sawa) and he is definitely NOT a transexual, I'm shocked you could even say that.


Astaghfirulah
AstaghfirAllah indeed.

Taha

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 06:54:24 AM »
Thanks for your input, though. It was very enlightening.

Hadrami

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 06:59:39 AM »
Why would we hate "Man Kuntu Mawlahu fa Hatha 'Aliyun Mawlahu"?
It is a thorn in the side of every Sunni.

why don't you start a thread about this topic here? After that you can see it's a thorn for shiism

About the pic, have you seen a pic of homo/transexual model which shia used as pic of Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasalam when he was teenager?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 07:01:31 AM by Hadrami »

Hadrami

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 07:03:28 AM »
Why would we hate "Man Kuntu Mawlahu fa Hatha 'Aliyun Mawlahu"?

The "text" as you put it is from an authentic Sunni hadith, not a Shi'a one.

My view, personally, is that it is shameful to depict the Sahaba - especially depicting them as transexuals (like those pics).

Astaghfirulah

I was told that a pic of a man carrying a book will always meant to be the pic of Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam

Hadrami

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 07:06:54 AM »
Why would we hate "Man Kuntu Mawlahu fa Hatha 'Aliyun Mawlahu"?
It is a thorn in the side of every Sunni.

why don't you start a thread about this topic here? After that you can see it's a thorn for shiism

About the pic, have you seen a pic of homo/transexual model which shia used as pic of Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasalam when he was teenager?

I forgot you started Ghadir topic here - http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/ghadeer-khum/

Unfortunately then Ameen "The Magnificent" hijack it  ;D

You diverted the topic in the end though Taha, so i dont know why youre on about it being a thorn for Sunni
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 07:09:08 AM by Hadrami »

Husayn

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 07:10:40 AM »
Quote
It is a thorn in the side of every Sunni.

No, it is basically irrelevant to most Sunnis, except those who come into contact with ignorant Shii polemics.

As for those who know of it - it means 'Ali (RA) was the ally of every believer, and nothing more.

Quote
So, to be clear, it is shameful what you did on the Umar thread??

And those pictures (that I posted) aren't of the Sahabah, they are of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sawa) and he is definitely NOT a transexual, I'm shocked you could even say that.

Yes, I do feel a little ashamed whenever I link directly to Shii things. But sometimes its needed, to bring it into the light.

As for the transsexual thing - I didn't say Rasul Allah (saw) looks like that, I said the depictions of them by Shiis make them look like that.

They look like (as Ebn Hussein will tell you) Persian Majoosis who have undergone a sex change operation. Or, at the very least, like Majoosi priests who have had alot of plastic surgery.

I mean, even as a Shii I couldn't stand these Catholic/Orthdox Christian-wannabe drawings. They look ridiculous.

Quote
AstaghfirAllah indeed.

Astaghfirulah wal 'iyathu bil lah from slanderous belief.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Ebn Hussein

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2015, 10:12:26 AM »
@Mods:

Posting so called pictures of our beloved Prophet (SAWS) should (if at all, some scholars don't even allow it for the sake of exposing the kufr) only be allowed for the sake of exposing the lies and kufr of the kuffar, not for the sake of posting a collection, wal-3yadhubillah. Sometimes I'm thinking some fat white Zionist is, somewhere in the US is enjoying such threads, anyways ...

As for the pictures:

Do you actually  realise that the way you Rafidah portray the Ahl al-Bayt is exactly how Persians portray their national heroes? In a typical Persian fashion+effaminate homosexual like features?

Forget about the fact that drawing the Ahl al-Bayt and Sahaba shouldn't be done at all, but what about drawing them like Persian looking metrosexuals/transexuals/faggots with feminine features (+hanging up their portrays in so called places of worship such as "Husseiniyyah")?!









I advise everyone to watch the following clip which proves another Majoosi reality of twelver Shiism and how much it is influenced (especially the current post-Safavid version) by Persian culture (that is sanctified by their scholars!) and how even non-Persian Shias, including Arabs have been brainwashed to imagine their 12 deities in the image of Persian metrosexual looking idols:



This is a break-away thread from the Umar series thread.


What is the Sunni view on depicting people such as the Holy Prophet (sawa), Imam Ali (as), the Sahabah (ra), etc?


I think as long as they're done in a respectful way, it's okay.  If you agree it's okay, post what you have.  There were some pictures of Imam Ali in the other thread.  Let's collect all the good ones here.

The metrosexual and gay looking fallibles of the Rafidah are anything but a respectful portrayal of the blessed Ahl al-Bayt (AS), the Rafidah went as far as to portray the Prophet (SAWS) based on the picture of a third gender individual, even al-Azhar (with their Sufi leadership who often got a soft spot for the Rafidah) got angry:

http://sonsofsunnah.com/2012/09/16/everybodys-fed-up-with-the-rafidite-republic-even-al-azhar/
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 10:21:07 AM by Ebn Hussein »
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Furkan

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2015, 11:40:12 AM »
Dude what is wrong with you posting so called pictures of rasullulah ( saw)
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Taha

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 01:39:41 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Hadrami on Yesterday at 09:59:39 AM
why don't you start a thread about this topic here? After that you can see it's a thorn for shiism

I did start a thread.  It was pathetic and got derailed by off-topic posts.  Farid actually answered me in private and his answer was more than sufficient.  I'm waiting for the rest of you to get on board with his methodology.

Quote
Quote from: Hadrami on Yesterday at 09:59:39 AM

About the pic, have you seen a pic of homo/transexual model which shia used as pic of Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasalam when he was teenager?
No, I have not seen such a thing.  Or if I have, I either didn't recognize it as such or I forgot about it.



Quote
Quote from: Hadrami on Yesterday at 09:59:39 AM

I was told that a pic of a man carrying a book will always meant to be the pic of Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam

Indeed.  The book is meant to be the Qur'an.



Quote
Quote from: Hadrami on Yesterday at 10:06:54 AM

I forgot you started Ghadir topic here - http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/ghadeer-khum/


Unfortunately then Ameen "The Magnificent" hijack it  ;D


You diverted the topic in the end though Taha, so i dont know why youre on about it being a thorn for Sunni

I'm on about it being a thorn for Sunnis because absolutely no Sunni except Farid was able to give an acceptable response.  You guys can't even unite on a proper explanation for it.



Quote
Quote from: Husayn on Yesterday at 10:10:40 AM

No, it is basically irrelevant to most Sunnis, except those who come into contact with ignorant Shii polemics.

The words of the Holy Prophet (sawa) are irrelevant to most Sunnis?  SubhanAllah.


Quote
Quote from: Husayn on Yesterday at 10:10:40 AM

As for those who know of it - it means 'Ali (RA) was the ally of every believer, and nothing more.
Mawla means master/lord.


Quote
Quote from: Husayn on Yesterday at 10:10:40 AM

As for the transsexual thing - I didn't say Rasul Allah (saw) looks like that, I said the depictions of them by Shiis make them look like that.

The depictions are based on the hadeeths that describe his appearance.


Quote
Quote from: Husayn on Yesterday at 10:10:40 AM

They look like (as Ebn Hussein will tell you) Persian Majoosis who have undergone a sex change operation. Or, at the very least, like Majoosi priests who have had alot of plastic surgery.

I don't care what Ebn Hussein has to say, quite honestly.  Without his inappropriate polemics/propaganda, who knows, I might have become Sunni by now.  So far, it is only Farid and sometimes Hani and Hadrami that are intelligent on this site.  Whenever I see a post of Ebn Hussein, I am reminded of what Sunnis are once they remove their veil of lies.  As for Persian Majoos, you guys are the ones that pray like them with your hands folded.



Quote
Quote from: Furkan on Yesterday at 02:40:12 PM

Dude what is wrong with you posting so called pictures of rasullulah ( saw)

What's wrong with me?!  Why are you not asking what is wrong with the people that made the `Umar series?  Why are you not asking what is wrong with Husayn that posted pictures of Imam Ali (a.s)?  Why singling me out?  Shows your exceptional bias.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 11:50:44 AM by Ebn Hussein »

Furkan

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 02:18:19 AM »
Drawing is forbidden. Drawing prophets is even worse. To think that a drawing could illustrate rasululah ( ) ?

As for series, dont see any harm in fallible persons represented by actors. He posted the picture knowing it is not really representing Ali.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Taha

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 02:20:10 AM »
Drawing is forbidden. Drawing prophets is even worse. To think that a drawing could illustrate rasululah ( ) ?

As for series, dont see any harm in fallible persons represented by actors. He posted the picture knowing it is not really representing Ali.
Drawing is forbidden?  Where in the world did you get that idea?  I guess all children are going to hell, then?

And clearly these images are not meant to be a perfect representation of anybody, they're just there for visual guidance.  Sometimes people have a hard time visualizing people they've never met/seen before. 

Furkan

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 02:23:49 AM »
Can someone quote Sunni and Shia hadiths for this fiqh ruling
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Taha

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 02:47:51 AM »
Can someone quote Sunni and Shia hadiths for this fiqh ruling


Precisely, it is fiqh.  Not aqeedah.  Why are we even debating this?

Husayn

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2015, 03:39:59 AM »
Quote
I did start a thread.  It was pathetic and got derailed by off-topic posts.  Farid actually answered me in private and his answer was more than sufficient.  I'm waiting for the rest of you to get on board with his methodology.

Farid and Hani are definitely in a class of their own - but I think you just like the fact that a well-known poster like Farid gave you some special treatment and spoke with you in private.

That's actually really cute.

Why don't you just conduct all of your discussions in private then, seeing as how this is what you prefer?

Quote
I'm on about it being a thorn for Sunnis because absolutely no Sunni except Farid was able to give an acceptable response.  You guys can't even unite on a proper explanation for it.

Well, unless we see what Farid told you, we can't exactly judge.

But you are definitely mistaken when you say we can't unite on a "proper explanation for it", as there is only one explanation for Ghadir Khumm.

It may be said in different ways, but the explanation is the same.

Quote
The words of the Holy Prophet (sawa) are irrelevant to most Sunnis?  SubhanAllah.

Ahhh, we are playing at semantics now, are we? You are very argumentative, so this is natural.

No, what I meant was that most Sunnis are unaware of Ghadir Khum, and as such, it is irrelevant to them. This is in answer to your very bold claim that it is "a thorn in the side of every Sunni".

A claim that is typical of your very narrow world view.

What I was trying to convey is that to Shiis, Ghadir Khumm is amongst the top 3 most important things to have ever happened - whereas to Sunnis, it is largely unimportant (because it is a historical event, and has no bearing on their day to day lives).

Quote
Mawla means master/lord.

I thought Farid's explanation was sufficient for you? Did Farid tell you that mawla in the context of Ghadir Khumm meant master/lord?

I find that very hard to believe.

Mawla has 50 meanings, the meaning that I gave was the accepted meaning in the context of Ghadir Khumm.

Allah (swt) says in Surat at-Tahrim verse 4:

إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّـهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّـهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ

Shakir's translation:

If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.

----

So Allah (swt), Gibraeel and the Righteous Believers are given the title "Mawla" in connection with Rasul Allah (saw).

So is Gibraeel and the Righteous Believers the "masters/lord" of the Prophet (saw), or his guardians/allies?

Quote
I don't care what Ebn Hussein has to say, quite honestly.  Without his inappropriate polemics/propaganda, who knows, I might have become Sunni by now.  So far, it is only Farid and sometimes Hani and Hadrami that are intelligent on this site.  Whenever I see a post of Ebn Hussein, I am reminded of what Sunnis are once they remove their veil of lies.  As for Persian Majoos, you guys are the ones that pray like them with your hands folded.

lol

I agree that Farid, Hani and Hadrami are all very intelligent.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

adnan42

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2015, 04:34:46 AM »
Can someone quote Sunni and Shia hadiths for this fiqh ruling

It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah the Mother of the Believers that Umm Habeebah and Umm Salamah mentioned a church that they had seen in Abyssinia, in which there were images. They mentioned it to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said: “Those people, if there was a righteous man among them and he died, they would build a place of worship over his grave and put those images in it. They will be among the most evil of creation before Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.” (narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Salaah, 409).

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back from a journey and I had placed a curtain of mine that had pictures on it over (the door of) a room of mine. When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw it, he tore it and said, ‘The people who will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection will be those who try to make the like of Allaah’s creation.’ So we turned it (the curtain) into one or two cushions.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Libaas, 5498).

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: “I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘The people who will be most severely punished on the Day of Resurrection will be the image-makers.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Libaas, 5494). 

Taha

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2015, 07:53:28 AM »
^ The first hadeeth has potential tadlees in it.

As for the second two, I have no objections.

Would a mod please edit out the two pictures I posted in the original post, please?  You can maybe replace them with [Picture of Muhammad holding the Qur'an] and [Picture of Muhammad holding Zulfiqar] or something like that so that the context will not be lost. Ya3ni I'm not trying to hide what I did, I don't care if people know. Just want the pictures taken down inshaAllah.

(btw, to all you argumentative fools, this is how you correct someone -- post the evidence. Don't ask what's wrong with me, just show me why I'm wrong)

Hadrami

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2015, 09:58:53 AM »
I'm on about it being a thorn for Sunnis because absolutely no Sunni except Farid was able to give an acceptable response.  You guys can't even unite on a proper explanation for it.

No Taha, unfortunately Sunni are fed up with pigheaded shia who refers mawla as master/lord. Sunni has 1 and only 1 understanding for that hadith, but shia chose to ignore it. Its not our fault that shia is too stupid to realise it. Even a geographical explanation is enough to refute shia mumbo jumbo understanding. No need to explain the meaning of mawla at all.


As for those who know of it - it means 'Ali (RA) was the ally of every believer, and nothing more.

Mawla means master/lord.

Cool, if it means master/lord then Zayd RA status is way much better than Ali RA.
Shia said Ali is master/lord of everyone except Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam, if we are using shia's understanding then we will also say Zaid is master/lord of everyone as well as master/lord of Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam (how crazy is that?), because

".....and He (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said to Zaid:"You are our brother and our mawla" (Sahih Bukhari Kitab Al Islah hadith no 2501)

Alhamdulillah Sunni is not Shia. Congratulation Taha, you just got yourself another imam, Zaid who was the master/lord of Ali  :P

adnan42

Re: Depictions of Holy People
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2015, 10:13:29 AM »
Can someone quote Sunni and Shia hadiths for this fiqh ruling

It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah the Mother of the Believers that Umm Habeebah and Umm Salamah mentioned a church that they had seen in Abyssinia, in which there were images. They mentioned it to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said: “Those people, if there was a righteous man among them and he died, they would build a place of worship over his grave and put those images in it. They will be among the most evil of creation before Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.” (narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Salaah, 409).

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back from a journey and I had placed a curtain of mine that had pictures on it over (the door of) a room of mine. When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw it, he tore it and said, ‘The people who will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection will be those who try to make the like of Allaah’s creation.’ So we turned it (the curtain) into one or two cushions.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Libaas, 5498).

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: “I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘The people who will be most severely punished on the Day of Resurrection will be the image-makers.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Libaas, 5494). 

@mod

please change the first hadith with this one....

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ أُمَّ حَبِيبَةَ، وَأُمَّ سَلَمَةَ ذَكَرَتَا كَنِيسَةً رَأَيْنَهَا بِالْحَبَشَةِ فِيهَا تَصَاوِيرُ، فَذَكَرَتَا لِلنَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ إِنَّ أُولَئِكَ إِذَا كَانَ فِيهِمُ الرَّجُلُ الصَّالِحُ فَمَاتَ بَنَوْا عَلَى قَبْرِهِ مَسْجِدًا، وَصَوَّرُوا فِيهِ تِلْكَ الصُّوَرَ، فَأُولَئِكَ شِرَارُ الْخَلْقِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ‏"‏‏.‏

Um Habiba and Um Salama mentioned about a church they had seen in Ethiopia in which there were pictures. They told the Prophet (ﷺ) about it, on which he said, "If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection."((narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Salaah, 419)

 

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