TwelverShia.net Forum
Off Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bolani Muslim on February 16, 2015, 06:54:54 AM
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Salaam, I've only been Sunni for 3 months yet my friend wants an unofficial debate at the temple. Our title for this week is 'Did the Prophet (saw) choose a successor' and next week is 'Is Abu Bakr's (ra) Khilafat legit'. I was hoping that you guys could give me tips on how to debate, being my first debate and my friend much older. As well as links to articles and things I should say. I'll let you guys know how it went. :)
BTW, I'm gonna post any articles I find as well
Thanks for the help, Khuda Hafiz
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The Ahle Sunnah respect and love both Ali and Abi Bakr, so I advise you not to engage in a topic of Abi Bakr vs Ali.
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Gaining knowledge is quite important for any debate/discussion. If you feel you haven't gained enough.. then I suggest you to gain knowledge about these issues first, before debating others.
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I would advise against debating.
What if you lose? Does this mean you have to change your sect? What if a Qura'ni comes and beats him, do both of you become Qur'anis?
Since he is a friend, it is better to have simple discussions instead of debates. The intention should be to share information, not to win.
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Yeah - I agree with the above.
Don't get into a debate - especially not a face-to-face debate.
Verbal debates never convince anyone, and are just a platform for people to air their own opinions, and hopefully either get applause or win respect from people of the same faith.
You have to remember that these sects are not new - the Ithna 'Asharis/Zaydis/Isma'ilis/Qur'anists have been around for a long time, and they have honed their own specific arguments.
Like all deviant sects - they concentrate on the ambigious, and abandon the specific.
e.g. Ithna 'Asharis taking the hadith of 12 Caliphs from Sahih Muslim (which is ambigious) - while at the same time rejecting all the explicit narrations in which, for example, 'Ali says Abu Bakr is better than him.
So no - don't get into a debate, because all you will get out of it is a headache.
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To avoid Debate just throw Counter questions-
">Why should we devide when AlI(ra.) himself did not obey so called Wilayat and co-operated the Khilafah?" :P
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Salam Alaikum brother,
Why not invite him here?
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Bring him here otherwise don't debate. You need some qualification to engage in debate and that comes only after a long time researching whatever topic you choose to debate.
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I am reading since one year, refutation's/articles related to sahaba, shiism etc and yet I don't see myself fit to debate face to face (not reading very much maybe).
And since such a debate depends on how much "ammunition" you have got at that moment it's just pointless. Just tell him that enough people are interested to debate a shii, since not a single heavyweight of SC dares to show up on TS (ameen get's excluded since he is a qeustioner and not a debater and not an heavyweight ^^).
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Thanks for the replies, I wasn't the one who wanted the debate my friend did, because he's worried I'm a 'wahabi' and want to blow shias up ::). I sent him articles, websites, and this forum mutliple times, but he told me he won't read 'wahabi' material. It's only between me and him, no one else knows I'm fully Sunni. I talked over with him, and we decided it won't be verbal, instead we'll write essays discuss afterwards. Neither debate's supposed to be about Hazrat Abu Bakr vs Hazrat Ali, I'm not sure were that idea came up.
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Just tell him there are all kinds of sunis on this forum. And heck, he can check the sources if he doesn't trust TS
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Since he is a friend, it is better to have simple discussions instead of debates. The intention should be to share information, not to win.
I agree with this one. Avoid debates with 12ers who are your friends. A lot of 12ers that wanted to gave me dawah, and failed to convince me to their sect no longer remained my friend. Also, many removed me as a friend on facebook only because I was critical against their sect, while they are not only critical but takfiri against the sahaba and Sunni Imams.
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Thanks for the replies, I wasn't the one who wanted the debate my friend did, because he's worried I'm a 'wahabi' and want to blow shias up ::).
This label wahabi is just an excuse they use to openly attack the sahaba. According to 12ers this concept of Wahabism came from Umar because he killed Fatima. So to them you will be hated not because you are a non-Sufi, but because of your attachment toward Umar. Also 12ers hate the Zaidi and refer to them as Batriyyah whom they think are bigger hypocrites then the Wahabis.
Refer to this clip at the 52 min mark. See how he tries to link the killing of 12er Shia all back to Umar. This is the core belief of majority of the 12ers.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
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Neither debate's supposed to be about Hazrat Abu Bakr vs Hazrat Ali, I'm not sure were that idea came up.
Look what you wrote:
Did the Prophet (saw) choose a successor' and next week is 'Is Abu Bakr's (ra) Khilafat legit'.
I find it hard to believe that won't turn into a topic of Abi Bakr vs Ali.
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^You have a point, if I tell him I believe that Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) Khilafat is legit, then it'll turn into a Abu Bakr vs Ali argument. I'll see if I can force him here to talk to more knowledgeable guys, I'm hoping once online he'll start reading the articles instead of dismissing them as 'wahabi' material.
Edit: Watching the video made me laugh for 2 reasons. I saw rajabali live ~2 years ago and used to have so much respect for the clergy, I've lost it all now considering how my own neighborhood mullah has lied to me about Ahl Sunnat. It's also funny how the he thinks shias around the world are oppressed for loving Ahlul Bayt. ::)
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Ok, so why do you think Shias have been and are being slaughtered all around Asia and the middle east??? Why are they oppressed???
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Since he is a friend, it is better to have simple discussions instead of debates. The intention should be to share information, not to win.
I agree with this one. Avoid debates with 12ers who are your friends. A lot of 12ers that wanted to gave me dawah, and failed to convince me to their sect no longer remained my friend. Also, many removed me as a friend on facebook only because I was critical against their sect, while they are not only critical but takfiri against the sahaba and Sunni Imams.
And how exactly would you convince someone to become a Sunnis??? Which ever Sunni you are that is.
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Ok, so why do you think Shias have been and are being slaughtered all around Asia and the middle east??? Why are they oppressed???
Everyone is jealous of shias, so they end up killing shias. Happy now?
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Ok, so why do you think Shias have been and are being slaughtered all around Asia and the middle east??? Why are they oppressed???
Everyone is jealous of shias, so they end up killing shias. Happy now?
I don't think you can do any better than this. LOL!
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Ok, so why do you think Shias have been and are being slaughtered all around Asia and the middle east??? Why are they oppressed???
Everyone is jealous of shias, so they end up killing shias. Happy now?
I don't think you can do any better than this. LOL!
It's because we are Nasibis who hate Ahlul Bayt, so we oppress you and kill you because you love them so very much.
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Ok, so why do you think Shias have been and are being slaughtered all around Asia and the middle east??? Why are they oppressed???
Everyone is jealous of shias, so they end up killing shias. Happy now?
I don't think you can do any better than this. LOL!
It's because we are Nasibis who hate Ahlul Bayt, so we oppress you and kill you because you love them so very much.
I'm sure you can do better than that. Try again, with an open mind and a clear heart this time. Go on, give it another ago.
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I'm sure you can do better than that. Try again, with an open mind and a clear heart this time. Go on, give it another ago.
Yeah, try again!! Make sure the cables are plugged and the internet connection works fine.
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I'm sure you can do better than that. Try again, with an open mind and a clear heart this time. Go on, give it another ago.
Yeah, try again!! Make sure the cables are plugged and the internet connection works fine.
Absolutely. That's the way to go. Killing people along with elderly women and children just because of their faith and belief, well it can't be and get more discusting than this. All I will say is,
Lanatullah al Zalimeen wal Qateleen.
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Absolutely. That's the way to go. Killing people along with elderly women and children just because of their faith and belief, well it can't be and get more discusting than this. All I will say is,
Lanatullah al Zalimeen wal Qateleen.
Are you cursing `Ali who killed those Rafidah who considered him a god? Cause he did execute them with fire for their beliefs (which is a mistake and forbidden).
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Weren't they killed by the smoke of it ( got this from a rafidhi) ?
Or weren't they banished according to another report?
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It says burned in our authentic books as well as theirs and that is what is historically established. Even if they did die from the smoke and heat of the fire and not by getting burned, this is still forbidden as it counts as "torturing with the fire".
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Yeah, try again!! Make sure the cables are plugged and the internet connection works fine.
The Yahood and 12er Shia share a very similar history. Both faced thousand of years of persecution. I personally feel bad for Qadianis too. Why can't the Sunnis just take some time and study the other side. Then dialogue would be good. However, killing is just evil and so Islamic. Likewise, where there is a majority population of 12ers, there are Sunni who are forced to live under taqiyyah.
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And how exactly would you convince someone to become a Sunnis??? Which ever Sunni you are that is.
If one is objective then they won't take a 180 degree turn to become a Sunni or 12ers. One needs to be a balanced Muslim.
A few ex-12er I know are Panzerwaffe from Shi'achat. Also, Abu Zayd on this website.
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Absolutely. That's the way to go. Killing people along with elderly women and children just because of their faith and belief, well it can't be and get more discusting than this. All I will say is,
Lanatullah al Zalimeen wal Qateleen.
Are you cursing `Ali who killed those Rafidah who considered him a god? Cause he did execute them with fire for their beliefs (which is a mistake and forbidden).
You know what is being discussed. What is the meaning of Rafidi??? And what about killing people along with companions of the Prophet (pbuh) because they refused to hand the Zaka,ath money over to the newly elected Muslim government??? They wanted to stay on the ways instructed by the Prophet (pbuh) rather than the new laws laid out by the Shaikhain.
What was it that Hazrath Ali (as) did and what was the nature of it??? What was Ali's position at the time??? Execution is carried out by the state, not by a bunch of misguided individuals claiming to do Jihad in the name of Islam, when they don't have a clue what Jihad is about and it's principals and circumstances.
Come on you're an intelligent guy. Don't derail the subject.
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And how exactly would you convince someone to become a Sunnis??? Which ever Sunni you are that is.
If one is objective then they won't take a 180 degree turn to become a Sunni or 12ers. One needs to be a balanced Muslim.
A few ex-12er I know are Panzerwaffe from Shi'achat. Also, Abu Zayd on this website.
And how is a balanced Muslim??? Or how do you become a balanced Muslim??? Here we can't even balance any argument, which is what I keep calling and pointing out. Having a balanced approach. You know a few ex 12rs??? I know plenty of ex Sunnis and once they have become Shia, not a single one of them disrespects Sunnism or the Sunnis, forget about turning on them and slandering and slagging them off.
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And how is a balanced Muslim??? Or how do you become a balanced Muslim??? Here we can't even balance any argument, which is what I keep calling and pointing out. Having a balanced approach. You know a few ex 12rs???
First in your beliefs only 12ers are considered Momins, and all other Muslims are considered just Muslims. This is an extreme view.
For Ahle Sunnah most people have forced the belief that the highest status among the sahaba has be h Abi Bakr being the highest, followed by Umar. Again there is no ijma on this, therefore, such a view cannot be binding.
These are just some examples.
I know plenty of ex Sunnis and once they have become Shia, not a single one of them disrespects Sunnism or the Sunnis, forget about turning on them and slandering and slagging them off.
Can you give me some examples of online users ?
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And how is a balanced Muslim??? Or how do you become a balanced Muslim??? Here we can't even balance any argument, which is what I keep calling and pointing out. Having a balanced approach. You know a few ex 12rs???
First in your beliefs only 12ers are considered Momins, and all other Muslims are considered just Muslims. This is an extreme view.
For Ahle Sunnah most people have forced the belief that the highest status among the sahaba has be h Abi Bakr being the highest, followed by Umar. Again there is no ijma on this, therefore, such a view cannot be binding.
These are just some examples.
I know plenty of ex Sunnis and once they have become Shia, not a single one of them disrespects Sunnism or the Sunnis, forget about turning on them and slandering and slagging them off.
Can you give me some examples of online users ?
That isn't true, a mu'min is a status that can be achieved by any human. The Imams do have a special status in Shia Islam, but anyone can be a mu'min.
Secondly, what Ameen is saying is generally true. It is generally the Sunni world that practices takfirism and kills shias. In Iran are there massacres happening there against Sunnis? No. Shias are killed in bahrain and saudi for just protesting, they were massacred in Iraq by Saddam just a few years ago, they are being targeted in Pakistan by taliban and are currently being killed by ISIS/AlQaida/etc.
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That isn't true, a mu'min is a status that can be achieved by any human. The Imams do have a special status in Shia Islam, but anyone can be a mu'min.
By anyone do you mean anyone who becomes a 12er ? As far as I know a 12er believes only if you believe in 12 Imams you can be a momin, otherwise if you are not a 12er you can't be one. On the contrary, in your sect non-12ers are just plain Muslims. This is why we are referred to as Ammi.
Secondly, what Ameen is saying is generally true. It is generally the Sunni world that practices takfirism and kills shias. In Iran are there massacres happening there against Sunnis? No.
That's why no Sunni mosques are allowed in Tehran? Also, there has been assassinations attempts against even 12ers in Iraq who disagreed with Waliyah al Faqih. Recently Norman Finkelstein went to Iran and confirmed that nobody is allowed to speak against Khamenei.
Shias are killed in bahrain and saudi for just protesting, they were massacred in Iraq by Saddam just a few years ago, they are being targeted in Pakistan by taliban and are currently being killed by ISIS/AlQaida/etc.
Al Qaeda, Taliban and ISIS even kill Sunnis who disagree with them. Even Saddam massacred many Sunnis and especially Kurds who are Sunni.
As for 12er Shia killing there are Iraqi Shia militia who got frustrated with what Saddam did in the past and they in revenge massacred many innocent Sunnis, and continue to do so till this day.
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That isn't true, a mu'min is a status that can be achieved by any human. The Imams do have a special status in Shia Islam, but anyone can be a mu'min.
By anyone do you mean anyone who becomes a 12er ? As far as I know a 12er believes only if you believe in 12 Imams you can be a momin, otherwise if you are not a 12er you can't be one. On the contrary, in your sect non-12ers are just plain Muslims. This is why we are referred to as Ammi.
Secondly, what Ameen is saying is generally true. It is generally the Sunni world that practices takfirism and kills shias. In Iran are there massacres happening there against Sunnis? No.
That's why no Sunni mosques are allowed in Tehran? Also, there has been assassinations attempts against even 12ers in Iraq who disagreed with Waliyah al Faqih. Recently Norman Finkelstein went to Iran and confirmed that nobody is allowed to speak against Khamenei.
Shias are killed in bahrain and saudi for just protesting, they were massacred in Iraq by Saddam just a few years ago, they are being targeted in Pakistan by taliban and are currently being killed by ISIS/AlQaida/etc.
Al Qaeda, Taliban and ISIS even kill Sunnis who disagree with them. Even Saddam massacred many Sunnis and especially Kurds who are Sunni.
As for 12er Shia killing there are Iraqi Shia militia who got frustrated with what Saddam did in the past and they in revenge massacred many innocent Sunnis, and continue to do so till this day.
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I misread what you said I thought you said only the 12 imams were mumin. Only Allah judges and knows who are truly mu'min.
There aren't sunni mosques in Tehran because the government says that there is no such thing as a shia or sunni mosque and that all mosques are meant for all muslims.
People speak against Khamenei all the time, even during the green revolution he said that if people speak out against him its okay and that people should treat them with patience, it was during his qhutba.
The point is, sunnis aren't being massacred in Iran, but shias are definitely massacred in Saudi, Iraq, Pakistan, Bahrain, etc.
I am not going to deny that shias may have killed Sunnis, but when that was only after many years of oppression and even then Ayatollah Sistani who is the leader of all Shias and respected by Sunnis as well made statements to not react violently against the Sunni community. His famous quote was that "And do not call Sunnis our brothers, but call them ourselves."
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Shias massacred Sunnis:
- In 1500s Safavid Persia - countless numbers killed or converted to 12verism.
- In 1500s/1600s Iraq - same as above.
This was the only two times that Shias - specifically 12vers (the most extremist and rabid of all Rafidis) ever held dominion over Sunnis.
Whenever they had power over them, they slaughtered them, or helped in their slaughter (Mongol invasions, several Shias colluded with them against the 'Abbasid Khalifa).
Fast forward to the present day - 12vers, who have power over Sunnis in Iraq/Syria, are slaughtering them wholesale (main reason so many are joining groups like IS).
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I misread what you said I thought you said only the 12 imams were mumin. Only Allah judges and knows who are truly mu'min.
So you disagree with what your sect says that only 12er are only momins ? Even Shaykh Mufid and Sharif Murtaza opinions differ from what is narrated in Kafi. The two scholars said 12er are momin even after they sin. However, the ahadith in al Kafi differ.
There aren't sunni mosques in Tehran because the government says that there is no such thing as a shia or sunni mosque and that all mosques are meant for all muslims.
How would you like it if Islamabad bans 12ers having their own mosque ?
People speak against Khamenei all the time, even during the green revolution he said that if people speak out against him its okay and that people should treat them with patience, it was during his qhutba.
That's why Iran made assassination attempts against Iraqi 12er Shia scholars who didn't want Iran to intervene in Iraqi issue.
The point is, sunnis aren't being massacred in Iran, but shias are definitely massacred in Saudi, Iraq, Pakistan, Bahrain, etc.
That's because the Iranain government censors the media. Are you aware of Ayatollah Montazeri? He was supposed to be Khomoeni's successor ? Do you know why he didn't become the successor ?
I am not going to deny that shias may have killed Sunnis, but when that was only after many years of oppression and even then Ayatollah Sistani who is the leader of all Shias and respected by Sunnis as well made statements to not react violently against the Sunni community. His famous quote was that "And do not call Sunnis our brothers, but call them ourselves."
May ? Also Sistani ? The same Sistani who studied under al Khoei ? Al Khoie has a fatwa that all non-12ers are Muslim in the dunya, but kaffirs in the aqira.
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^Could I see Khoie's fatwa? I wanna show my shia cousin.
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Kitab Tahara Sayyed Ayatullah Al Khoe’i (2/84):
http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m001/04/no0466.html
قد وقع الكلام في نجاسة الفرق المخالفة للشيعة الاثنى عشرية وطهارتهم. وحاصل الكلام في ذلك إن إنكار الولاية لجميع الأئمة – ع – أو لبعضهم هل هو كإنكار الرسالة يستتبع الكفر والنجاسة؟ أو أن إنكار الولاية إنما يوجب الخروج عن الإيمان مع الحكم بإسلامه وطهارته. فالمعروف المشهور بين المسلمين طهارة أهل الخلاف وغيرهم من الفرق المخالفة للشيعة الاثنى عشرية ولكن صاحب الحدائق ” قده ” نسب إلى المشهور بين المتقدمين والى السيد المرتضى وغيره الحكم بكفر أهل الخلاف ونجاستهم وبنى عليه واختاره كما أنه بنى على نجاسة جميع من خرج عن الشيعة الاثنى عشرية من الفرق. وما يمكن أن يستدل به على نجاسة المخالفين وجوه ثلاثة: ” الأول “: ما ورد في الروايات الكثيرة البالغة حد الاستفاضة من أن المخالف لهم – ع – كافر
8- We had already spoke about The Najasah(uncleanliness) of all the teams who differ with the Twelver Shias and their Tahara. And in brief that denying the Wilayah for all the Imams PBUT or some of them is like denying the message and it brings Kufr and Najasah? Or that Denying The Wilayah necessarily means leaving Iman (Belief) with the Hukm of his Islam and Tahara. What is popular amongst the scholars Is the Tahara of those who differ with us Although the author of the book “Al Hada’eq” May Allah sanctify his secret has attributed to the modern scholars like al Sayyed al murtada that it was popular amongst them That those who differ are Kouffar and Najis even the other Shia teams. What we can use to prove the Najasah of those who differ with us is divided into three parts, Firstly what we Read in Countless and plenty of Narrations that those who differ with the Imams are Kouffar…
ومنه يظهر الحال في سائر الفرق المخالفين للشيعة الاثنى عشرية من الزيدية، والكيسانية، والاسماعيلية، وغيرهم، حيث ان حكمهم حكم
[وأما مع النصب أو السب للائمة الذين لا يعتقدون بإمامتهم فهم مثل سائر النواصب] أهل الخلاف لضرورة انه لا فرق في إنكار الولاية بين إنكارها ونفيها عن الأئمة – ع – باجمعهم وبين إثباتها لبعضهم ونفيها عن الآخرين – ع – كيف وقد ورد أن من أنكر واحدا منهم فقد أنكر جميعهم – ع – وقد عرفت أن نفي الولاية عنهم – باجمعهم غير مستلزم للكفر والنجاسة فضلا عن نفيها عن بعض دون بعض فالصحيح الحكم بطهارة جميع المخالفين للشيعة الاثنى عشرية و إسلامهم ظاهرا بلا فرق في ذلك بين أهل الخلاف وبين غيرهم وان كان جميعهم في الحقيقة كافرين وهم الذين سميناهم بمسلم الدنيا وكافر الآخرة.
And thus Other Shia teams like Zaidiyah, Kisaniyah, Ismaliyah and others their ruling is the same as that of those who differ with us because there is no difference between denying Wilayah of the Imams altogether and between accepting it for some Imams and denying it for other Imams, and it was mentioned that he who denies one denies all, and I know that Denying this Wilayah does not mean Kufr or Najasah nor does denying Wilayah for some of the Imams, What is correct is The Tahara of all those who differ with the Twelver Shia and their Islam Based on what is Apparent Although in reality They are All Kouffar and we have called them Muslims in The Dunyah and Kaffirs on The Day of judgement.
Source: kitab al tahara, Khoei, 2/87.