Iran's Islamic Revolution

[Rationalist]

"I thought the 12er Shia have an ijma on Umar being a monafiq"

YOU THOUGHT? That's all I seem to be getting, ACCUSATIONS, ASSUMPTIONS OR THOUGHTS. 😊

I still didn't see any 12er Shia sources have another opinion on Umar. You need to show me proof from the 12er Shia books.

"
Just as you have difference in opinion about people, so have the others. Umar was a Companion of the Prophet s.a.w and with very close companion as well as a relative. His character, performance, achievement and sacrifice is there to be witnessed and seen for Islam and the Prophet s.a.w.

Any references to back this up from the 12er Shia books?

What's the point when you guys have already made up your mind, either he's an enemy and a bad guy and if I say otherwise then your going to assume it's Taqiyah. One way or the other one can't reason with you guys, no matter what is said. 😊

You need to bring proof from your books. Why do I believe its taqiyyah because you have hadith like tihs.

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said (about Abu bakr and Umar): “They are two Imams Adel (Just) and Qasit (Balanced), they were upon the right, and died upon it, so may Allah’s mercy be upon them on the Day of Judgment.”

Here is the full text:
كتاب نفحات اللاهوت : نقلا من كتاب المثالب لابن شهرآشوب ، أن الصادق عليه السلام سئل عن أبي بكر وعمر ، فقال : كانا إمامين قاسطين عادلين ، كانا على الحق وماتا عليه ، فرحمة الله عليهما يوم القيامة ، فلما خلا المجلس ، قال له بعض أصحابه  : كيف قلت يا بن رسول الله ؟ ! . فقال : نعم ، أما قولي : كانا إمامين ، فهو مأخوذ من قوله تعالى : * ( وجعلناهم أئمة يدعون إلى النار ) *  ، وأما قولي قاسطين ، فهو من قوله تعالى : * ( وأما القاسطون فكانوا لجهنم حطبا ) *  ، وأما قولي عادلين ، فهو مأخوذ من قوله تعالى : * ( الذين كفروا بربهم يعدلون ) * ، وأما قولي كانا على الحق ، فالحق علي عليه السلام ، وقولي : ماتا عليه ، المراد أنه  لم يتوبا عن تظاهرهما عليه ، بل ماتا على ظلمهما إياه ، وأما قولي : فرحمة الله عليهما يوم القيامة ، فالمراد به أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ينتصف له منهما ، آخذا من قوله تعالى : * ( وما أرسلناك إلا رحمة للعالمين )

An opponent (Sunni) asked Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq and said: O Allah’s apostle son what do you say about Abu Bakr and Umar? He replied: They are two Imams Adel (Just) and Qasit (Balanced), they were upon the right, and died upon it, therefore may Allah’s mercy be upon them on the Day of Judgment. When the people left, a man from his retinue (Shia) said: O Allah’s apostle son I’m wondering from what you have said about Abu Bakr and Umar! He replied: yes they are two Imams calling for hellfire as Allah said And We made them Imams who call to the fire (28:41) The Qasit as Allah almighty said And as for those who are unjust (Qasit – in this context means unjust), they are firewood for hell (72:15) and the Adel that because they switched from the right as Allah almighty said Yet those who disbelieve ascribe (Ya`diloon) rivals unto their Lord (6:1). What I meant by this was that they were upon the right in that they seized the right of the Commander of Believers (Ali). What I meant by they died upon it that they died was on enmity without repentance. What I meant with mercy be upon them that the mercy is Allah’s apostle because he was a mercy to mankind and he will be a rival for them on the Day of Judgment.

Source: Bihaar al-Anwaar, Volume 30, Page 286, Hadith #150

Can you show me where Shaykh Saduq said he believed in this. Because it contradicts with the Qur'an. Death is either through illness or murder or manslaughter. It could be crucifixion, beheading, hanging or many other ways. Allah clearly says that "Neither was he murdered or crucified, in fact Allah up lifted him". So what do you make of this.

Shaykh Saduq's (ar) book of I`tiqad:

"Our opponents (the Sunnites) have related that when the Mahdi, on whom be peace, will appear, Jesus, son of Mary, on whom he peace, will descend upon the earth and pray behind the Mahdi. Now the descent of Jesus to the earth is his return to the world after death, because Allah the Glorious and Mighty says: "Verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself" [3, 48]."

[iceman]

I still didn't see any 12er Shia sources have another opinion on Umar. You need to show me proof from the 12er Shia books.
Any references to back this up from the 12er Shia books?

You need to bring proof from your books. Why do I believe its taqiyyah because you have hadith like tihs.

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said (about Abu bakr and Umar): “They are two Imams Adel (Just) and Qasit (Balanced), they were upon the right, and died upon it, so may Allah’s mercy be upon them on the Day of Judgment.”

Here is the full text:
كتاب نفحات اللاهوت : نقلا من كتاب المثالب لابن شهرآشوب ، أن الصادق عليه السلام سئل عن أبي بكر وعمر ، فقال : كانا إمامين قاسطين عادلين ، كانا على الحق وماتا عليه ، فرحمة الله عليهما يوم القيامة ، فلما خلا المجلس ، قال له بعض أصحابه  : كيف قلت يا بن رسول الله ؟ ! . فقال : نعم ، أما قولي : كانا إمامين ، فهو مأخوذ من قوله تعالى : * ( وجعلناهم أئمة يدعون إلى النار ) *  ، وأما قولي قاسطين ، فهو من قوله تعالى : * ( وأما القاسطون فكانوا لجهنم حطبا ) *  ، وأما قولي عادلين ، فهو مأخوذ من قوله تعالى : * ( الذين كفروا بربهم يعدلون ) * ، وأما قولي كانا على الحق ، فالحق علي عليه السلام ، وقولي : ماتا عليه ، المراد أنه  لم يتوبا عن تظاهرهما عليه ، بل ماتا على ظلمهما إياه ، وأما قولي : فرحمة الله عليهما يوم القيامة ، فالمراد به أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ينتصف له منهما ، آخذا من قوله تعالى : * ( وما أرسلناك إلا رحمة للعالمين )

An opponent (Sunni) asked Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq and said: O Allah’s apostle son what do you say about Abu Bakr and Umar? He replied: They are two Imams Adel (Just) and Qasit (Balanced), they were upon the right, and died upon it, therefore may Allah’s mercy be upon them on the Day of Judgment. When the people left, a man from his retinue (Shia) said: O Allah’s apostle son I’m wondering from what you have said about Abu Bakr and Umar! He replied: yes they are two Imams calling for hellfire as Allah said And We made them Imams who call to the fire (28:41) The Qasit as Allah almighty said And as for those who are unjust (Qasit – in this context means unjust), they are firewood for hell (72:15) and the Adel that because they switched from the right as Allah almighty said Yet those who disbelieve ascribe (Ya`diloon) rivals unto their Lord (6:1). What I meant by this was that they were upon the right in that they seized the right of the Commander of Believers (Ali). What I meant by they died upon it that they died was on enmity without repentance. What I meant with mercy be upon them that the mercy is Allah’s apostle because he was a mercy to mankind and he will be a rival for them on the Day of Judgment.

Source: Bihaar al-Anwaar, Volume 30, Page 286, Hadith #150


Shaykh Saduq's (ar) book of I`tiqad:

"Our opponents (the Sunnites) have related that when the Mahdi, on whom be peace, will appear, Jesus, son of Mary, on whom he peace, will descend upon the earth and pray behind the Mahdi. Now the descent of Jesus to the earth is his return to the world after death, because Allah the Glorious and Mighty says: "Verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself" [3, 48]."

I still didn't see any 12er Shia sources have another opinion on Umar. You need to show me proof from the 12er Shia books.
Any references to back this up from the 12er Shia books?"

First of all what about common basic sense along with reality and facts. One doesn't need proof for this but one should ask for proof if otherwise.

Everyone has good and bad, right and wrong, positive and negative etc attached to them. Anything apart or different from this needs to be proved.

We're discussing UMAR. I don't need to provide you with evidence of such, Umar was a Muslim, he did a lot of good and positive things etc etc etc.

What needs to be proved are the two following;

1, Those who always defend and protect Umar all the time, every time and everywhere as though he could say, do and get nothing wrong. As though he never made any mistakes or errors.

2, Those who always criticise and condemn Umar at every available opportunity as though he never ever did anything right and positive. As though he didn't have a single decent bone in his body.

"Why do I believe its taqiyyah because you have hadith like tihs"

Don't believe in everything that is written down. Look into it and examine it, just as you would do it when it comes to yourself and your own beliefs and books.

[Rationalist]

We're discussing UMAR. I don't need to provide you with evidence of such, Umar was a Muslim, he did a lot of good and positive things etc etc etc.

What needs to be proved are the two following;

1, Those who always defend and protect Umar all the time, every time and everywhere as though he could say, do and get nothing wrong. As though he never made any mistakes or errors.

Yes the Sunni do have an unrealistic romantic image of the Khulafa Rashid. This is similar to the romantic expectation the 12er Shia have for the 12th Imam.

2, Those who always criticise and condemn Umar at every available opportunity as though he never ever did anything right and positive. As though he didn't have a single decent bone in his body.

What about the 12er Shia belief that he killed Fatima (sa)?

Don't believe in everything that is written down. Look into it and examine it, just as you would do it when it comes to yourself and your own beliefs and books.

But for Fatima (sa) the majority of the 12er Shia do believe that Umar is responsible for her death.

[iceman]

Yes the Sunni do have an unrealistic romantic image of the Khulafa Rashid. This is similar to the romantic expectation the 12er Shia have for the 12th Imam.
What about the 12er Shia belief that he killed Fatima (sa)?

But for Fatima (sa) the majority of the 12er Shia do believe that Umar is responsible for her death.

"Yes the Sunni do have an unrealistic romantic image of the Khulafa Rashid"

Thanks for admitting and accepting this. This is what I've been trying to point out for sometime now.

"This is similar to the romantic expectation the 12er Shia have for the 12th Imam"

Then I wonder what seems to be the problem then. Why are certain Sunnis moaning about this when the situation is the same from both sides.

"What about the 12er Shia belief that he killed Fatima (sa)?"

This is what I've been trying to point out and this is where the problem is.

What about the 12er Shia belief? He (Umar) killed Fatima, this isn't a 12er Shia belief. Just like this there are many other things which aren't 12er Shia belief but are labelled and shown by certain Sunnis that they are.

"But for Fatima (sa) the majority of the 12er Shia do believe that Umar is responsible for her death"

Nope. There is a divided opinion over this. Some believe and some don't. And there are many matters as such. But certain Sunnis are trying their best to show them as a core belief of the 12ers.

We need to learn about others from others rather than thinking about and taking others as we want.

[Rationalist]

"

Then I wonder what seems to be the problem then. Why are certain Sunnis moaning about this when the situation is the same from both sides.

As you already know the Shia have faced centuries of persecution throughout history. As a result began to lose their rationality and no longer saw hope. What gave them comfort is the idea of a romantic Imam who will come and save them. They gave the Mahdi special powers and believe it is these powers that come with him  in bring them their salvation. Our Sunni books mostly contain Shia narration when it comes to the Mahdi. They weren't 12er Shia, but still  they were Shia from a certain sect.

Nope. There is a divided opinion over this. Some believe and some don't. And there are many matters as such. But certain Sunnis are trying their best to show them as a core belief of the 12ers.

We need to learn about others from others rather than thinking about and taking others as we want.

I thought the majority believe this. Can you present me some 12er shia scholars, and books which oppose this opinion that Umar supposedly killed Fatima?

[Muhammad Tazin]

the narration provided by Rationalist is from a SHIA source, as it states below -
"Source: Bihaar al-Anwaar, Volume 30, Page 286, Hadith #150 "
This narration clearly contains the tactics of keeping hatred based of shiite lies, and also maintain TAQIYYA

Here are also some other narrations, in the well known book of Baqir Majlisi, Tarikh Payambaran(popular as HAYAT al QULUB) , where he repeatedly claims that Abu Bakr & Umar were Sameri, worshipped calf for this Ummah

-
این امّت که ابو بکر و عمر و عثمان و سایر خلفاي جور و اعداي اهل بیت علیهم السّلام باشند؛ لهذا وارد شده است که فرعون و هامان و قارون، ابو بکر و عمر و عثمانند، و عمر سامري این امّت و ابو بکر عجل این امّت است با آنکه در آیات قرآنی بسیار است که اول آیه در شأن کسی است
--
ولایت علی بن ابی طالب علیه .« او دشمنی است آشکار کننده دشمنی خود را السّلام و امامان و اوصیاي بعد از او و معرفت ایشان و اقرار به امامت ایشان و خطوات شیطان و اللّه ولایت ابو بکر و عمر و عثمان است
---
specially in  618pg , part4 , he also claims the distortion of kitab of Allah, as well as Abu Bakr was like Samiri of this ummah
این سبب شد که ملاعین دیگر غصب خلافت کردند؛ پس یک خلیفه رسول خدا را چنین کردند و خلیفه دیگر را که کتاب خدا بود تحریف کردند و تغییر دادند و به هر وجه که خواستند گردانیدند.
این جماعت سرکردههاي قبیلهها و اشراف و بزرگان ایشان بودند و هیچیک از این جماعت نبود مگر آنکه خلق عظیمی تابع او بودند و سخن او را میشنیدند و اطاعت او مینمودند و در اعماق دل خبیث ایشان محبت ابو بکر جا کرده بود چنانکه در دل بنی اسرائیل محبت عجل سامري جا کرده بود چنانکه حق تعالی میفرماید

[iceman]

As you already know the Shia have faced centuries of persecution throughout history. As a result began to lose their rationality and no longer saw hope. What gave them comfort is the idea of a romantic Imam who will come and save them. They gave the Mahdi special powers and believe it is these powers that come with him  in bring them their salvation. Our Sunni books mostly contain Shia narration when it comes to the Mahdi. They weren't 12er Shia, but still  they were Shia from a certain sect.


I thought the majority believe this. Can you present me some 12er shia scholars, and books which oppose this opinion that Umar supposedly killed Fatima?

Shia scholar Ayatullah Fadlullah said: “It has reached my attention that many of our scholars have reported in their books that lady Fatima was viciously attacked while she was staying at her home with Imam Ali, and their children along with some of the sahaba of Rasoul Allah, some of our scholars agree that “the attackers” who attacked the house of Imam Ali did actually do so as we arrogate to the masses,

but the truth is that “the man” only threatened her. In his speech “the man” said: “wa in lam yakhrojoo”, the words in arabic “wa in” shows “ee7aa2″/”shame” of Alzahraa, so how can we say that he broke her rib while he showed shame towards her? I personally reject the stories regarding the attack on her house along with breaking her ribs since our shia history doesn’t prove that this incident has occurred to sayeda Alzahraa”.

[Sayed Fadhulla, a speech that was given on mothers day, 1999, Beirut lebnan. This is recorded in: “Almula7azat” by Sayed Yaseen Almusawi, Published by “Dar Al9eddeqa Alkubra” in Beirut Lebanon, 2000]

[muslim720]

Shia scholar Ayatullah Fadlullah

That is one scholar and to explain his opinion in one word, it is "shadh" (although commendable).  For the same reason, other eminent Shi'i scholars criticized him, including Ayatollah Sistani.

[iceman]

As you already know the Shia have faced centuries of persecution throughout history. As a result began to lose their rationality and no longer saw hope. What gave them comfort is the idea of a romantic Imam who will come and save them. They gave the Mahdi special powers and believe it is these powers that come with him  in bring them their salvation. Our Sunni books mostly contain Shia narration when it comes to the Mahdi. They weren't 12er Shia, but still  they were Shia from a certain sect.


I thought the majority believe this. Can you present me some 12er shia scholars, and books which oppose this opinion that Umar supposedly killed Fatima?

Shia scholar Ayatullah al-Sayyed al-Khoei:

When al-Khoei was asked about this incident:

س 980: هل الروايات التي يذكرها خطباء المنبر، وبعض الكتاب عن كسر ((عمر)) لضلع السيدة فاطمة (عليها السلام) صحيحة برأيكم؟ الخوئي:ذلك مشهور معروف، والله العالم. صراط النجاة: ج 3/ ص 314

Question 980: Are the narrations mentioned by the speakers on the Mimbars and some of the books about ‘Umar breaking the rib of Fatima, authentic according to you?

Answer: That is what’s popular and known and Allah knows best. 
[Sirat al-Najat 3/314].

Note: This reply of Ayatullah khoei shows that he didn’t consider those reports present in shia books to be authentic. Al-khoei said that those reports were popular but he didn’t declare them to be authentic.

To clear this up let us see what al-khoei writes in his books:

لا ينجبر ضعف السند بالشهرة

“The weakness of Sanad is not fixed by the popularity of a Hadith” (kitab al-Khums 1/18)

Al-khoei also says about another narration:

وجه الاشكال هو أن المعروف والمشهور بين الأصحاب وإن كان ذلك إلا أنه لا دليل عليه

"The problem is that even if it is known and popular amongst our companions, yet there is no proof for it”  ” (Mabani Takmilat al-Minhaj 2/434)

[Rationalist]

Popularity is difficult to oppose.

[iceman]

Popularity is difficult to oppose.

True 😊