Smashing the myth of taking Ahlulbayt as the only conveyors of Islamic knowledge

[Ameen]

You never answered his question Ameen = )


All you're doing is saying "Well, you guys are divided too!" But you're not answering his question concerning the division in Shia sects, politics, `Aqeedah and Fiqh.

I have answered his question in one manner. Just has you have divisions in you by all means like schools of thought, political parties, militant groups, Islamic sects etc. others have too. But there is a difference when it comes to the core belief and that is which Shia are you, this is where the difference is. One sees themselves as the right one. But with the Ahle Sunnah it doesn't matter, everything goes. You are all right, just and on haq. The same goes for your belief in the companions, they were all good, pious and on haq, when they fought fierce battles with each other. You have no clear difference between right and wrong, who is truthful and who is on falsehood and between haq and batil. It's not about any individual or person but it's about right and wrong and haq and batil. So if your faith and belief is about justifying incidents and events, regardless of how they came about and what ever the circumstances were, if it's about everyone is right and everything is accepted and goes then, may The Lord help you.

[Ameen]

Brother Hani, do you believe Shia are KAFIR??? Yes or no.

[Hani]

I have answered his question in one manner. Just has you have divisions in you by all means like schools of thought, political parties, militant groups, Islamic sects etc. others have too. But there is a difference when it comes to the core belief and that is which Shia are you, this is where the difference is. One sees themselves as the right one. But with the Ahle Sunnah it doesn't matter, everything goes. You are all right, just and on haq. The same goes for your belief in the companions, they were all good, pious and on haq, when they fought fierce battles with each other. You have no clear difference between right and wrong, who is truthful and who is on falsehood and between haq and batil. It's not about any individual or person but it's about right and wrong and haq and batil. So if your faith and belief is about justifying incidents and events, regardless of how they came about and what ever the circumstances were, if it's about everyone is right and everything is accepted and goes then, may The Lord help you.

Thanks for your Du`a', may the Lord help you too! ; )

[Hani]

Brother Hani, do you believe Shia are KAFIR??? Yes or no.

Which Shia? Waqifah? Sabaa'iyyah? `Ali-Ilahiyyah? Ithna `Ashari Usooliyyah? Imamiyyah Shaykhiyyah?


Heck Ithna `Asharis themselves have very different beliefs and teams, some believe in Tahreef some don't, some curse `A'ishah some don't, some believe in `Ismah some don't, some believe in Wilayah Takweeniyah some don't, some do Istighatha some think it's Shirk etc...


I can't answer this question, better to ask about each specific belief rather than the sect.

[Ameen]

Brother Hani, do you believe Shia are KAFIR??? Yes or no.

Which Shia? Waqifah? Sabaa'iyyah? `Ali-Ilahiyyah? Ithna `Ashari Usooliyyah? Imamiyyah Shaykhiyyah?


Heck Ithna `Asharis themselves have very different beliefs and teams, some believe in Tahreef some don't, some curse `A'ishah some don't, some believe in `Ismah some don't, some believe in Wilayah Takweeniyah some don't, some do Istighatha some think it's Shirk etc...


I can't answer this question, better to ask about each specific belief rather than the sect.

You can't answer this question, in other words you're not sure. Thanks for your honesty. That's all I wanted to know.

[Husayn]

Brother Hani, do you believe Shia are KAFIR??? Yes or no.

Which Shia? Waqifah? Sabaa'iyyah? `Ali-Ilahiyyah? Ithna `Ashari Usooliyyah? Imamiyyah Shaykhiyyah?


Heck Ithna `Asharis themselves have very different beliefs and teams, some believe in Tahreef some don't, some curse `A'ishah some don't, some believe in `Ismah some don't, some believe in Wilayah Takweeniyah some don't, some do Istighatha some think it's Shirk etc...


I can't answer this question, better to ask about each specific belief rather than the sect.

You can't answer this question, in other words you're not sure. Thanks for your honesty. That's all I wanted to know.

No - what he means is that the kufr of a Shia depends on their beliefs. We can't say all Shias are kaffir because basically each Shia person has a different belief. There are certain beliefs that would make one a kaffir - such as declaring Abu Bakr a kaffir, or 'Aisha an adulterer (wal 'iyathu bil lah).

He could tell you that al-Majlisi was a kaffir, for example, without any doubt.

[Hadrami]

My friend's wife is shia. He asked me once about it and I said to him bluntly if your wife believes that Abu Bakar RA is a disbeliever then I dont see how she is a Muslimah for sure, because that belief is against al-Qur'an. And as far as I know, all 12ers believes that he is a disbeliever. He doesn't agree with me, but hey I don't beat around a bush.

[Ameen]

can you tell me how someone would become a Kafir by saying that so and so companion in reality wasn't a true believer or was half a believer??? Or if someone said that so and so of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives had sinned or was disobedient??? What is the definition of a Kafir according to you and how would you define Kufar???

[Hani]

can you tell me how someone would become a Kafir by saying that so and so companion in reality wasn't a true believer or was half a believer??? Or if someone said that so and so of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives had sinned or was disobedient??? What is the definition of a Kafir according to you and how would you define Kufar???

Well his opinion (I assume and don't take my word for it), is that since the Prophet (saw) promised Abu Bakr heaven in plenty of narrations through many authentic chains, in addition to all the praise he received in other narrations and his merits and virtues  and Qur'anic verses revealed concerning him etc...


Hadrami is probably saying that based on this, if one says he is a Kafir, then he himself falls into the Kufr of denying the Prophet's (saw) clear words.


I personally like to give people excuses when it comes to this stuff and never accuse them of Kufr.

[Hadrami]

can you tell me how someone would become a Kafir by saying that so and so companion in reality wasn't a true believer or was half a believer??? Or if someone said that so and so of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives had sinned or was disobedient??? What is the definition of a Kafir according to you and how would you define Kufar???

Thats the difference between you and me. I dont pretend about my belief. So are you saying Abu Bakar RA is a muslim?

[Hadrami]

can you tell me how someone would become a Kafir by saying that so and so companion in reality wasn't a true believer or was half a believer??? Or if someone said that so and so of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives had sinned or was disobedient??? What is the definition of a Kafir according to you and how would you define Kufar???

Well his opinion (I assume and don't take my word for it), is that since the Prophet (saw) promised Abu Bakr heaven in plenty of narrations through many authentic chains, in addition to all the praise he received in other narrations and his merits and virtues  and Qur'anic verses revealed concerning him etc...


Hadrami is probably saying that based on this, if one says he is a Kafir, then he himself falls into the Kufr of denying the Prophet's (saw) clear words.


I personally like to give people excuses when it comes to this stuff and never accuse them of Kufr.

Yep, hani is correct. There is too many proofs where Allah SWT & Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam confirm that Abu Bakar RA is a true mu'min.

[Ameen]

Can you show me those proofs??? I also want to know where it says that if someone believes a companion was a  half hearted believer or wasn't a true believer then, this person becomes a Kafir due to such belief.

As far as I know and I am aware of "Kufar" has to do with "Nabuwath" and "Shirk" has to do with "Allah".
To reject "Nabuwath" or any part or bit of it, results in "Kufar". And to associate anything, anyone or yourself to "Allah" results in "Shirk".

[Hadrami]

Can you show me those proofs??? I also want to know where it says that if someone believes a companion was a  half hearted believer or wasn't a true believer then, this person becomes a Kafir due to such belief.

As far as I know and I am aware of "Kufar" has to do with "Nabuwath" and "Shirk" has to do with "Allah".
To reject "Nabuwath" or any part or bit of it, results in "Kufar". And to associate anything, anyone or yourself to "Allah" results in "Shirk".

Come on,  "half hearted" & "wasnt true believer"? What is that? Youre trying to hard to hide your real view of him. Just denying one of your imam is equal to denying nubuwwah anyway. Dont be shy rafidi.