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Sunni Caliphate System

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iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2017, 12:04:18 AM »
It doesn't matter which angle you try from you will not succeed with the arrogant and ignorant. You're better off speaking to a wall than those handful who have a mindset. You carry on justifying incidents and events through Shura. We don't bother you but you're the ones who are obsessed with us. Get a life and do something useful.

Hadrami

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2017, 11:35:50 AM »
Shura to choose leader was bad
BUT
Shura to choose khamenei was good

*facepalm*

Its like at first shia say only infallibles can guidr us and then fallibles guiding them now. Always contradicting themselves in the end

Mythbuster1

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2017, 12:28:19 PM »
It doesn't matter which angle you try from you will not succeed with the arrogant and ignorant. You're better off speaking to a wall than those handful who have a mindset. You carry on justifying incidents and events through Shura. We don't bother you but you're the ones who are obsessed with us. Get a life and do something useful.

BOO HOO HOO, no evidence from Quran and sunnah or any logical ANGLE..........now it's emotions and sob stories bout how Shiites get picked on, LOL.

Typical Shiite COP OUT.

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2017, 08:38:24 PM »
It doesn't matter which angle you try from you will not succeed with the arrogant and ignorant. You're better off speaking to a wall than those handful who have a mindset. You carry on justifying incidents and events through Shura. We don't bother you but you're the ones who are obsessed with us. Get a life and do something useful.

BOO HOO HOO, no evidence from Quran and sunnah or any logical ANGLE..........now it's emotions and sob stories bout how Shiites get picked on, LOL.

Typical Shiite COP OUT.

LOL and LOL again. Can't you have or don't you want a discussion? What is Shura and what are the circumstances and conditions relating to it? Were the first six Khalifs selected by Shura?

Once again Abu Bakr was selected by Shura when all parties concerned weren't present in Saqifa. Only the Ansaar gathered there to do their thing.

Omar was selected by Shura. Where and when did all parties concerned gather?

The third was selected by just six people, is this Shura? Is Shura or can Shura be limited just to a few or handful? Was Yazeed also brought in by Shura?

Come on, do you have any standards? Is there any standards? I don't need your childish stance.

The bottom line seems to be that you can't discuss because your belief is not based on reality and facts. You have no principles or standards.

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2017, 08:44:47 PM »
Shura to choose leader was bad
BUT
Shura to choose khamenei was good

*facepalm*

Its like at first shia say only infallibles can guidr us and then fallibles guiding them now. Always contradicting themselves in the end

We don't believe in Shura when it comes to the Prophet's (s) successor. Selecting a spiritual leader for your country, for example Iran, is totally a different thing. First get your head around understanding things and their foundation rather than yapping on thoughtlessly.

Hadrami

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2017, 01:25:06 AM »
Shura to choose leader was bad
BUT
Shura to choose khamenei was good

*facepalm*

Its like at first shia say only infallibles can guidr us and then fallibles guiding them now. Always contradicting themselves in the end

We don't believe in Shura when it comes to the Prophet's (s) successor. Selecting a spiritual leader for your country, for example Iran, is totally a different thing. First get your head around understanding things and their foundation rather than yapping on thoughtlessly.
haha another funny excuse. Its ok to have shura to elect spiritual leader. Isnt your imam a spiritual leader? See, everytime shia answers it only contradict your other answer

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2017, 01:58:38 AM »
We don't believe in Shura when it comes to the Prophet's (s) successor. Selecting a spiritual leader for your country, for example Iran, is totally a different thing. First get your head around understanding things and their foundation rather than yapping on thoughtlessly.

Esteemed Shia scholar Ayatullah Khomeini writes in his book:

“When we say that after the Occultation, the just faqih has the same authority that the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams (‘a) had, do not imagine that the status of the faqih is identical to that of the Imams and the Prophet(‘a). For here we are not speaking of status, but rather of function. By “authority” we mean government, the administration of the country, and the implementation of the sacred laws of the shari‘ah. These constitute a serious, difficult duty but do not earn anyone extraordinary status or raise him above the level of common humanity. In other words, authority here has the meaning of government, administration, and execution of law; contrary to what many people believe, it is not a privilege, but a grave responsibility. The governance of the faqih is a rational and extrinsic  matter; it exists only as a type of appointment, like the appointment of a guardian for a minor. With respect to duty and position, there is indeed no difference between the guardian of a nation and the guardian of a minor. It is as if the Imam were to appoint someone to the guardianship of a minor, to the governorship of a province, or to some other post. In cases like these, it is not reasonable that there would be a difference between the Prophet and the Imams (‘a), on the one hand, and the just faqih, on the other.” (Islamic Goverment, page 45 by Ayatullah Khomeini,)

Mythbuster1

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2017, 02:14:31 PM »
It doesn't matter which angle you try from you will not succeed with the arrogant and ignorant. You're better off speaking to a wall than those handful who have a mindset. You carry on justifying incidents and events through Shura. We don't bother you but you're the ones who are obsessed with us. Get a life and do something useful.

BOO HOO HOO, no evidence from Quran and sunnah or any logical ANGLE..........now it's emotions and sob stories bout how Shiites get picked on, LOL.

Typical Shiite COP OUT.

LOL and LOL again. Can't you have or don't you want a discussion? What is Shura and what are the circumstances and conditions relating to it? Were the first six Khalifs selected by Shura?

Once again Abu Bakr was selected by Shura when all parties concerned weren't present in Saqifa. Only the Ansaar gathered there to do their thing.

Omar was selected by Shura. Where and when did all parties concerned gather?

The third was selected by just six people, is this Shura? Is Shura or can Shura be limited just to a few or handful? Was Yazeed also brought in by Shura?

Come on, do you have any standards? Is there any standards? I don't need your childish stance.

The bottom line seems to be that you can't discuss because your belief is not based on reality and facts. You have no principles or standards.

Why are you getting worked up for? If you cannot comprehend an argument or answer it just admit it instead of all the tripe you post.

So to you Quran and sunnah are not reality and facts, considering I base my shura understanding from them.

At the least I can say divine leadership is not based on reality and facts as there is no understanding of the concept in Quran and sunnah.

shiism in a nutshell👍

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2017, 10:47:27 AM »
Shura to choose leader was bad
BUT
Shura to choose khamenei was good

*facepalm*

Its like at first shia say only infallibles can guidr us and then fallibles guiding them now. Always contradicting themselves in the end

We don't believe in Shura when it comes to the Prophet's (s) successor. Selecting a spiritual leader for your country, for example Iran, is totally a different thing. First get your head around understanding things and their foundation rather than yapping on thoughtlessly.
haha another funny excuse. Its ok to have shura to elect spiritual leader. Isnt your imam a spiritual leader? See, everytime shia answers it only contradict your other answer

After the Messenger (s) we follow the Messenger (s) and have accepted and taken the two weighty things he has left behind for us, 1. The book of Allah which we take just as you and 2. The progeny which you along with the Sahaba have rejected.

Both, the book of Allah and the progeny, are pure and authentic 100%. You have clear verses about the progeny that rijs was removed from them and they were purified to the state of purification. And Allah did this for a purpose.

These are our Ulul Amre and our walies after Allah and his Messenger (s). We have clear verses in the Qoran about third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger (s). I'm repeating my self constantly and you are ignoring this and beating around the bush constantly.

Iran is a country and they believe in the democratic process just like any other country. They do not reject the concept of Al Mahdi but actually believe in it.

Imam (Al Mahdi) is present but not available. He is in Occultation. Read the meaning and get the understanding about occultation before speaking. Because the Imam is not available due to occultation our substitute is ijtihad and we follow a Mujtahid.

Learn, understand and get to know by asking and listening.

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2017, 10:55:36 AM »
It doesn't matter which angle you try from you will not succeed with the arrogant and ignorant. You're better off speaking to a wall than those handful who have a mindset. You carry on justifying incidents and events through Shura. We don't bother you but you're the ones who are obsessed with us. Get a life and do something useful.

BOO HOO HOO, no evidence from Quran and sunnah or any logical ANGLE..........now it's emotions and sob stories bout how Shiites get picked on, LOL.

Typical Shiite COP OUT.

LOL and LOL again. Can't you have or don't you want a discussion? What is Shura and what are the circumstances and conditions relating to it? Were the first six Khalifs selected by Shura?

Once again Abu Bakr was selected by Shura when all parties concerned weren't present in Saqifa. Only the Ansaar gathered there to do their thing.

Omar was selected by Shura. Where and when did all parties concerned gather?

The third was selected by just six people, is this Shura? Is Shura or can Shura be limited just to a few or handful? Was Yazeed also brought in by Shura?

Come on, do you have any standards? Is there any standards? I don't need your childish stance.

The bottom line seems to be that you can't discuss because your belief is not based on reality and facts. You have no principles or standards.

Why are you getting worked up for? If you cannot comprehend an argument or answer it just admit it instead of all the tripe you post.

So to you Quran and sunnah are not reality and facts, considering I base my shura understanding from them.

At the least I can say divine leadership is not based on reality and facts as there is no understanding of the concept in Quran and sunnah.

shiism in a nutshell👍

I'm not getting worked up at all. It's you by looking at your posts. I'm just repeating myself constantly because you're beating around the bush continuously. Ok enough said, give us Sunism in a nutshell. Can you? I don't think so. This is where the water works will come on. If you can't speak about your belief and faith openly and freely then why raise suspicion and cast doubt about ours. This is exactly your problem.

Mythbuster1

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2017, 12:14:31 PM »
It doesn't matter which angle you try from you will not succeed with the arrogant and ignorant. You're better off speaking to a wall than those handful who have a mindset. You carry on justifying incidents and events through Shura. We don't bother you but you're the ones who are obsessed with us. Get a life and do something useful.

BOO HOO HOO, no evidence from Quran and sunnah or any logical ANGLE..........now it's emotions and sob stories bout how Shiites get picked on, LOL.

Typical Shiite COP OUT.

LOL and LOL again. Can't you have or don't you want a discussion? What is Shura and what are the circumstances and conditions relating to it? Were the first six Khalifs selected by Shura?

Once again Abu Bakr was selected by Shura when all parties concerned weren't present in Saqifa. Only the Ansaar gathered there to do their thing.

Omar was selected by Shura. Where and when did all parties concerned gather?

The third was selected by just six people, is this Shura? Is Shura or can Shura be limited just to a few or handful? Was Yazeed also brought in by Shura?

Come on, do you have any standards? Is there any standards? I don't need your childish stance.

The bottom line seems to be that you can't discuss because your belief is not based on reality and facts. You have no principles or standards.

Why are you getting worked up for? If you cannot comprehend an argument or answer it just admit it instead of all the tripe you post.

So to you Quran and sunnah are not reality and facts, considering I base my shura understanding from them.

At the least I can say divine leadership is not based on reality and facts as there is no understanding of the concept in Quran and sunnah.

shiism in a nutshell👍

I'm not getting worked up at all. It's you by looking at your posts. I'm just repeating myself constantly because you're beating around the bush continuously. Ok enough said, give us Sunism in a nutshell. Can you? I don't think so. This is where the water works will come on. If you can't speak about your belief and faith openly and freely then why raise suspicion and cast doubt about ours. This is exactly your problem.

What? divinity imami appointments v shura, stick to the topic, Shiism in a nutshell.......you are contradictive and can NEVER answer simple answers, as can be seen by your poor attempts to force thoughts of alien nature in to the Quran and sunnah. It doesn't work.

Iceman came in here with ALL his knowledge and experience to prove to sunni that divine appointment leadership is god chosen and shura is manmade he even got 10 questions that would kill us!!.............And look at iceman now, all the posts he posted have NO CLEAR proof of divinity leadership from an imam unless he goes into essays of explanations and stories.

i beat around the bush coz:

1) I proved there is no divine leadership appointments in any verse you gave.
2) I proved to you shura consultation is in Quran and sunna and how to implement it.

.........Now that icemans water works are jammed by not finding an answer to the fake divine imam theory concept, he wants to turn sunni taps on.......LOL.

👍

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2017, 01:06:43 PM »
It doesn't matter which angle you try from you will not succeed with the arrogant and ignorant. You're better off speaking to a wall than those handful who have a mindset. You carry on justifying incidents and events through Shura. We don't bother you but you're the ones who are obsessed with us. Get a life and do something useful.

BOO HOO HOO, no evidence from Quran and sunnah or any logical ANGLE..........now it's emotions and sob stories bout how Shiites get picked on, LOL.

Typical Shiite COP OUT.

LOL and LOL again. Can't you have or don't you want a discussion? What is Shura and what are the circumstances and conditions relating to it? Were the first six Khalifs selected by Shura?

Once again Abu Bakr was selected by Shura when all parties concerned weren't present in Saqifa. Only the Ansaar gathered there to do their thing.

Omar was selected by Shura. Where and when did all parties concerned gather?

The third was selected by just six people, is this Shura? Is Shura or can Shura be limited just to a few or handful? Was Yazeed also brought in by Shura?

Come on, do you have any standards? Is there any standards? I don't need your childish stance.

The bottom line seems to be that you can't discuss because your belief is not based on reality and facts. You have no principles or standards.

Why are you getting worked up for? If you cannot comprehend an argument or answer it just admit it instead of all the tripe you post.

So to you Quran and sunnah are not reality and facts, considering I base my shura understanding from them.

At the least I can say divine leadership is not based on reality and facts as there is no understanding of the concept in Quran and sunnah.

shiism in a nutshell👍

I'm not getting worked up at all. It's you by looking at your posts. I'm just repeating myself constantly because you're beating around the bush continuously. Ok enough said, give us Sunism in a nutshell. Can you? I don't think so. This is where the water works will come on. If you can't speak about your belief and faith openly and freely then why raise suspicion and cast doubt about ours. This is exactly your problem.

What? divinity imami appointments v shura, stick to the topic, Shiism in a nutshell.......you are contradictive and can NEVER answer simple answers, as can be seen by your poor attempts to force thoughts of alien nature in to the Quran and sunnah. It doesn't work.

Iceman came in here with ALL his knowledge and experience to prove to sunni that divine appointment leadership is god chosen and shura is manmade he even got 10 questions that would kill us!!.............And look at iceman now, all the posts he posted have NO CLEAR proof of divinity leadership from an imam unless he goes into essays of explanations and stories.

i beat around the bush coz:

1) I proved there is no divine leadership appointments in any verse you gave.
2) I proved to you shura consultation is in Quran and sunna and how to implement it.

.........Now that icemans water works are jammed by not finding an answer to the fake divine imam theory concept, he wants to turn sunni taps on.......LOL.

👍

You sound like a very emotional and disturbed man. I don't blame you since you've got everything to worry about. No discussion on the two weighty things and holding on to them. No discussion on the purification verse and your perspective. According to you the Prophet (s) didn't bother to appoint anyone because you probably think it wasn't that important to him. You believe in Shura and I have continuously asked you about the principles and circumstances of Shura and what are the conditions on selecting a leader according to Shura. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM YOU.

SHURA? The companions didn't even follow Shura. The first, the second and the third weren't selected by Shura. Moawiya wasn't elected by Shura.And I asked you about Yazeed if he got in by Shura and once again no comment from. No discussion, no comment on any of my points, no answers in fact nothing from you. Just tantrums and childish behaviour. Why are you so frightened in getting into a civilised discussion? Are you scared that you will get cornered?

One more time, you or anyone;
What are the principles and circumstances regarding Shura?

When you select/elect a leader what is tje method/procedure and what are the conditions?

Can any one answer and discuss according to Qoran and Sunah? Surely it can't be that difficult.

Mythbuster1

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2017, 02:03:26 PM »
Iceman

you really are stuck, divinity flakey imami leadership has no base.

You want to put shura against some fake divinity leadership ideology,this is your fallacy, you do realise shura is not a system of governance but it was the way prophet saw usedit and Quran urged it. This is our point. It's more closer to Quran and sunnah than divine Imamate leadership which has zilch coverage in Quran and sunnah.

If you cannot COMPREHEND or UNDERSTAND well that's not my issue, I have you Quran and sunna as evidences and yet you couldn't.............which means I AM BASING my evidence from Quran and sunnah and you are basing your evidence from HUMANS born 100's of years later.

That's IT.......you have nothing!!!

You can carry on all you want with different angles and sob stories and stretching meanings of verses in Quran to accommodate the made up theory of divine Imamate leadership.

As for using it,shura,  yes they all used it as previously posted before.

As for the side issue I have answered if you care to look for it........yazid wasn't a rashidun khalifa and he has NOTHING to do with shura.

Your clutching on straws if your gonna use yazid, honestly I thought you would be more intelligent than that.

Honestly 😂

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2017, 04:59:37 PM »
Iceman

you really are stuck, divinity flakey imami leadership has no base.

You want to put shura against some fake divinity leadership ideology,this is your fallacy, you do realise shura is not a system of governance but it was the way prophet saw usedit and Quran urged it. This is our point. It's more closer to Quran and sunnah than divine Imamate leadership which has zilch coverage in Quran and sunnah.

If you cannot COMPREHEND or UNDERSTAND well that's not my issue, I have you Quran and sunna as evidences and yet you couldn't.............which means I AM BASING my evidence from Quran and sunnah and you are basing your evidence from HUMANS born 100's of years later.

That's IT.......you have nothing!!!

You can carry on all you want with different angles and sob stories and stretching meanings of verses in Quran to accommodate the made up theory of divine Imamate leadership.

As for using it,shura,  yes they all used it as previously posted before.

As for the side issue I have answered if you care to look for it........yazid wasn't a rashidun khalifa and he has NOTHING to do with shura.

Your clutching on straws if your gonna use yazid, honestly I thought you would be more intelligent than that.

Honestly 😂

Another post full of rant and rave. Here we go agian;
What are the principles and circumstances concerning Shura?
What is the method/procedure regarding Shura? There has to be a particular way to conduct it. Or are you that I'll informed about what you believe in.

The first was elected/selected coincidentally and it was a hasty decision. Like I said before the Shaykhain rushed towards Saqifa to stop the Ansaar from going ahead and chosing their own leader. And one thing lead to another.

The second was appointed by the first. Oh yes, the first appointed his successor. And the second arranged a six man committee to choose the third just amongst themselves.

So how do you conduct Shura? What is the procedure/method? What are the principles and circumstances? Just because Yazeed turned out to be a bad person Shura is disappeared in thin air? If he turned out to be good the you would most definitely be beating the drums and blowing the trumpet of Shura.

Do you have any standards? Come on, it surely can't be that difficult to answer . You can RUN but you can't HIDE!

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2017, 06:58:43 PM »
Which Sunah did Abu Bakr follow when he appointed his successor Omar and which Sunah did Omar follow when he strategically appointed a Council of 6 and imposed a condition which he knew Ali would not accept to choose his successor?

Mythbuster1

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2017, 10:41:47 PM »
Iceman

you really are stuck, divinity flakey imami leadership has no base.

You want to put shura against some fake divinity leadership ideology,this is your fallacy, you do realise shura is not a system of governance but it was the way prophet saw usedit and Quran urged it. This is our point. It's more closer to Quran and sunnah than divine Imamate leadership which has zilch coverage in Quran and sunnah.

If you cannot COMPREHEND or UNDERSTAND well that's not my issue, I have you Quran and sunna as evidences and yet you couldn't.............which means I AM BASING my evidence from Quran and sunnah and you are basing your evidence from HUMANS born 100's of years later.

That's IT.......you have nothing!!!

You can carry on all you want with different angles and sob stories and stretching meanings of verses in Quran to accommodate the made up theory of divine Imamate leadership.

As for using it,shura,  yes they all used it as previously posted before.

As for the side issue I have answered if you care to look for it........yazid wasn't a rashidun khalifa and he has NOTHING to do with shura.

Your clutching on straws if your gonna use yazid, honestly I thought you would be more intelligent than that.

Honestly 😂

Another post full of rant and rave. Here we go agian;
What are the principles and circumstances concerning Shura?
What is the method/procedure regarding Shura? There has to be a particular way to conduct it. Or are you that I'll informed about what you believe in.

The first was elected/selected coincidentally and it was a hasty decision. Like I said before the Shaykhain rushed towards Saqifa to stop the Ansaar from going ahead and chosing their own leader. And one thing lead to another.

The second was appointed by the first. Oh yes, the first appointed his successor. And the second arranged a six man committee to choose the third just amongst themselves.

So how do you conduct Shura? What is the procedure/method? What are the principles and circumstances? Just because Yazeed turned out to be a bad person Shura is disappeared in thin air? If he turned out to be good the you would most definitely be beating the drums and blowing the trumpet of Shura.

Do you have any standards? Come on, it surely can't be that difficult to answer . You can RUN but you can't HIDE!


ok, how to conduct shura consultation......hmmmm......YOU CONSULT, you (ask, seek advice/information from, take counsel from, call on/upon/in, turn to). LOL.

"Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by MUTUAL CONSULTAION among themselves; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance" [are praised]. Quran 42-39.

Thus it is due to mercy from God that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take COUNSEL with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in God; surely God loves those who trust.quran 3-159.

  khalif Abu Bakr ra was selected by shura; His hand was raised by Umar ra and the parties agreed, then they CONSULTED with sahaba ra same with Umar ra He was by nomination. The current Khalifa may nominate his successor, the next Khalifa. The people have to accept him just as in the first case. If the old Khalifa appoints someone unworthy out of ulterior motives, the people must reject that appointee.
Uthmaan ra became caliph in a similar manner, when Umar ra delegated the appointment of the caliph to come after him to a shura council of six of the senior sahaba ra who were to elect one of their number. ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf consulted the Muhaajireen and Ansaar, and when he saw that the people were all inclined towards ‘Uthman ra, he swore allegiance to him first, then the rest of the six swore allegiance to him, followed by the Muhaajireen and Ansaar, so he was elected as caliph by the decision makers.

Whether it was six man or 2 man or the khalif himself who selects his choice to put forward for the shura it doesn't matter as long as they consulted with each other and wanted the best outcome for the umma, read the verses of Quran above it corresponds with this statement.

There you have it from Quran and is the choice of Nabi Muhammad saw as espoused by the umma for choosing a leader.

compare shura to divine imam leadership, the latter has no base, no reality or no sense to be honest as well as not being mentioned directly like shura in the Quran.

see........no long essays or stories or angles for that matter, simple and easy, as our Lord Allah swt intended for us to understand it.

Pity it's not as easy to explain divine Imamate leadership theory to the Muslim ummah.



Mythbuster1

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2017, 10:48:24 PM »
Which Sunah did Abu Bakr follow when he appointed his successor Omar and which Sunah did Omar follow when he strategically appointed a Council of 6 and imposed a condition which he knew Ali would not accept to choose his successor?

Calm down boy........none of them APPOINTED, they NOMINATED as answered above, stop TWISTING it.

Ali ra had problems when He came to power, that's another story and you can open a thread up for that if you want and other knowledgeable brothers can answer you, I am done answering you on shura v divine Imamate and which is right according to Quran and sunnah.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 10:49:32 PM by Mythbuster1 »

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2017, 03:23:40 PM »
Iceman

you really are stuck, divinity flakey imami leadership has no base.

You want to put shura against some fake divinity leadership ideology,this is your fallacy, you do realise shura is not a system of governance but it was the way prophet saw usedit and Quran urged it. This is our point. It's more closer to Quran and sunnah than divine Imamate leadership which has zilch coverage in Quran and sunnah.

If you cannot COMPREHEND or UNDERSTAND well that's not my issue, I have you Quran and sunna as evidences and yet you couldn't.............which means I AM BASING my evidence from Quran and sunnah and you are basing your evidence from HUMANS born 100's of years later.

That's IT.......you have nothing!!!

You can carry on all you want with different angles and sob stories and stretching meanings of verses in Quran to accommodate the made up theory of divine Imamate leadership.

As for using it,shura,  yes they all used it as previously posted before.

As for the side issue I have answered if you care to look for it........yazid wasn't a rashidun khalifa and he has NOTHING to do with shura.

Your clutching on straws if your gonna use yazid, honestly I thought you would be more intelligent than that.

Honestly 😂

Another post full of rant and rave. Here we go agian;
What are the principles and circumstances concerning Shura?
What is the method/procedure regarding Shura? There has to be a particular way to conduct it. Or are you that I'll informed about what you believe in.

The first was elected/selected coincidentally and it was a hasty decision. Like I said before the Shaykhain rushed towards Saqifa to stop the Ansaar from going ahead and chosing their own leader. And one thing lead to another.

The second was appointed by the first. Oh yes, the first appointed his successor. And the second arranged a six man committee to choose the third just amongst themselves.

So how do you conduct Shura? What is the procedure/method? What are the principles and circumstances? Just because Yazeed turned out to be a bad person Shura is disappeared in thin air? If he turned out to be good the you would most definitely be beating the drums and blowing the trumpet of Shura.

Do you have any standards? Come on, it surely can't be that difficult to answer . You can RUN but you can't HIDE!


ok, how to conduct shura consultation......hmmmm......YOU CONSULT, you (ask, seek advice/information from, take counsel from, call on/upon/in, turn to). LOL.

"Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by MUTUAL CONSULTAION among themselves; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance" [are praised]. Quran 42-39.

Thus it is due to mercy from God that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take COUNSEL with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in God; surely God loves those who trust.quran 3-159.

  khalif Abu Bakr ra was selected by shura; His hand was raised by Umar ra and the parties agreed, then they CONSULTED with sahaba ra same with Umar ra He was by nomination. The current Khalifa may nominate his successor, the next Khalifa. The people have to accept him just as in the first case. If the old Khalifa appoints someone unworthy out of ulterior motives, the people must reject that appointee.
Uthmaan ra became caliph in a similar manner, when Umar ra delegated the appointment of the caliph to come after him to a shura council of six of the senior sahaba ra who were to elect one of their number. ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf consulted the Muhaajireen and Ansaar, and when he saw that the people were all inclined towards ‘Uthman ra, he swore allegiance to him first, then the rest of the six swore allegiance to him, followed by the Muhaajireen and Ansaar, so he was elected as caliph by the decision makers.

Whether it was six man or 2 man or the khalif himself who selects his choice to put forward for the shura it doesn't matter as long as they consulted with each other and wanted the best outcome for the umma, read the verses of Quran above it corresponds with this statement.

There you have it from Quran and is the choice of Nabi Muhammad saw as espoused by the umma for choosing a leader.

compare shura to divine imam leadership, the latter has no base, no reality or no sense to be honest as well as not being mentioned directly like shura in the Quran.

see........no long essays or stories or angles for that matter, simple and easy, as our Lord Allah swt intended for us to understand it.

Pity it's not as easy to explain divine Imamate leadership theory to the Muslim ummah.

You said,
"you do realise shura is not a system of governance but it was the way prophet saw used it and Quran urged it."

You said that 'Shura is not a system of governance' then you say something different that 'it was the way  Prophet (s) used it'. Two different statements here that collide with each other. The Prophet (s) was the governor/leader and you say that he used Shura, what for? What did he use Shura for if not for governance? How did he govern?

I didn't say Shura wasn't in Qoran and Sunah, I said that the Sahaba didn't follow it in Saqifa by selecting the first or the second or the third. You said yourself that Shura isn't a system of governance then what is it for? To choose a governor/leader, is that what it's for? And you haven't mentioned the principles and circumstances because your post tells me there is no principles and circumstances concerning it.

You're all mixed and your post is mumbles and jumbles. Will comment on your other points.

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2017, 05:30:07 PM »
Iceman

you really are stuck, divinity flakey imami leadership has no base.

You want to put shura against some fake divinity leadership ideology,this is your fallacy, you do realise shura is not a system of governance but it was the way prophet saw usedit and Quran urged it. This is our point. It's more closer to Quran and sunnah than divine Imamate leadership which has zilch coverage in Quran and sunnah.

If you cannot COMPREHEND or UNDERSTAND well that's not my issue, I have you Quran and sunna as evidences and yet you couldn't.............which means I AM BASING my evidence from Quran and sunnah and you are basing your evidence from HUMANS born 100's of years later.

That's IT.......you have nothing!!!

You can carry on all you want with different angles and sob stories and stretching meanings of verses in Quran to accommodate the made up theory of divine Imamate leadership.

As for using it,shura,  yes they all used it as previously posted before.

As for the side issue I have answered if you care to look for it........yazid wasn't a rashidun khalifa and he has NOTHING to do with shura.

Your clutching on straws if your gonna use yazid, honestly I thought you would be more intelligent than that.

Honestly 😂

What is the title of the thread? You've probably forgotten or lost attention. Let me remind you, it's
'SUNNI CALIPHATE SYSTEM'
This is what the subject is, not Imamah.
You've mentioned Shura from the Qoran and I've asked you constantly and continuously about the principles and circumstances regarding Shura. This is what is used according to you by the Sahaba to choose a leader for the Muslim Ummah.

Now my question has been what is the procedure/method used to choose a leader. You've given me mumbles and jumbles.

One place you've said that Abu Bakr didn't appoint his successor and now your saying that the Khalifa has a right to appoint his successor. Here is what you've said;
I will Continue this.

iceman

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2017, 06:09:41 PM »
Mythbuster1 this is what you said,
"The current Khalifa may nominate his successor, the next Khalifa."
Now tell me is this Shura (consultation)? There is a difference between selection and appointment. So was Omar selected through Shura, did Abu Bakr leave it to the Ummah to select the their second leader or did Abu Bakr appoint his successor?

As far as Yazeed us concerned why isn't he amongst Khulafa e Rashedoon? Does it depend on your character, performance and achievement, if you turn out to be good and do well then you are selected by Shura otherwise Shura goes straight out of the window.




 

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