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Sunni Caliphate System

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Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Sunni Caliphate System
« on: July 31, 2017, 08:53:05 AM »
First of all this isn't a polemical topic, so don't start comparing our system of Imamah and khilafa to your system of khilafa. I just want an honest answer, with you defending your sect.

The Sunni Caliphate system has produced drunkards, oppressors and reportedly even faggots leading the Muslim communities. You can look at the accursed Caliphs of the Ummayad dynasty, you will find many examples to what I stated above.

How is it that Allah and His Prophet want us, the greatest Ummah, to be legitimately led by such fasiqs?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Farid

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 11:45:16 AM »
Good luck trying to avoid a polemical discussion by asking a question like that one bro. Hahah!

Here is my attempt at a straight answer:

It all depends on what you mean by legitamacy. Does that mean that Allah is satisfied with the ruler?

To us, a ruler is to be obeyed in matters that he is not ordering a transgression. I am not aware of a rule that says: Don't follow rulers that Allah is not satisfied with.

The same applies to a ruler that is not from Quraish. The nass says that the ruler has to be from Quraish. However, the nass also orders us to obey rulers that are not from Quraish.

Keep in mind that a ruler's sins are his own. Also, there is maslaha for citizens to follow the orders of a ruler.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 11:47:08 AM by Farid »

Mythbuster1

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 12:42:58 PM »
First of all this isn't a polemical topic, so don't start comparing our system of Imamah and khilafa to your system of khilafa. I just want an honest answer, with you defending your sect.

The Sunni Caliphate system has produced drunkards, oppressors and reportedly even faggots leading the Muslim communities. You can look at the accursed Caliphs of the Ummayad dynasty, you will find many examples to what I stated above.

How is it that Allah and His Prophet want us, the greatest Ummah, to be legitimately led by such fasiqs?


[EDITED BY MOD]

Please brother let's no shift this into Syria, that situation is quite clear.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:09:27 PM by Hani »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 01:24:44 PM »
First of all this isn't a polemical topic, so don't start comparing our system of Imamah and khilafa to your system of khilafa. I just want an honest answer, with you defending your sect.

The Sunni Caliphate system has produced drunkards, oppressors and reportedly even faggots leading the Muslim communities. You can look at the accursed Caliphs of the Ummayad dynasty, you will find many examples to what I stated above.

How is it that Allah and His Prophet want us, the greatest Ummah, to be legitimately led by such fasiqs?

There are righteous rulers & then there a bad rulers.

The two greatest leaders after the prophet SAW were the first two caliphs. History testifies to that.

Your leaders are elected by the people just like sunni's.

But the worst leader of all is the one who has been useless for over a thousand years.

Rationalist

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 01:54:33 PM »
How is the ummayads dynasty a Sunni system? Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain all accepted the Sunni system to become the Caliphas.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 02:46:19 PM »
Good luck trying to avoid a polemical discussion by asking a question like that one bro. Hahah!

Here is my attempt at a straight answer:

It all depends on what you mean by legitamacy. Does that mean that Allah is satisfied with the ruler?

To us, a ruler is to be obeyed in matters that he is not ordering a transgression. I am not aware of a rule that says: Don't follow rulers that Allah is not satisfied with.

The same applies to a ruler that is not from Quraish. The nass says that the ruler has to be from Quraish. However, the nass also orders us to obey rulers that are not from Quraish.

Keep in mind that a ruler's sins are his own. Also, there is maslaha for citizens to follow the orders of a ruler.

I said I'll try not to be polemical, but I'll try to give an example of what I mean: the Sunni system allows anyone to become a Caliph as long as he assumes power, and not just Caliph, also common day rulership too (modern day Muslim presidents etc...).

However, for example, in the modern day Usooli marja'iyya system, one of the known conditions to the legitimacy of following a marja is adala. Should he lose his adala, he is not a legitimate marja (until his adala returns atleast).

It seems to me that the Sunni system of khilafa gives a green light to anyone, if they are from Quraysh, to assume position and do what he wants as long as he doesn't reach the point of kufr. Adala is hardly considered.

Which is why I am asking: is that what Allah planned for the Ummah after the Prophet's death?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 02:49:38 PM »
How is the ummayads dynasty a Sunni system? Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain all accepted the Sunni system to become the Caliphas.

By the way, I'm not going to reply to Mythbuster1's foolish comment, to which he attempts to change the subject and talk about Bashar and Syria and whatever. I hope Hani cleans this thread, I didn't want it to turn about modern day politics, but this guy couldn't himself. So desperate lol

As for Zaid, a weak attempt at trying to turn this topic into a polemical one.

As for Rationalist, the Umayyad dynasty is Sunni and wajib al taa'a according to Sunni standards. They were Caliphs.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Rationalist

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 04:09:15 PM »
If that's the case then why isn't Muawiyah the next rightly guided Calipah after Ali or Hassan?

Why do Sunnis only have 4?

According to Sunnis Umar bin Abdul Aziz and Mamoon Rashid are the best rulers after the 4 or 5.

Also even the 12er Shia version of Imams they used to refer to ruler as prince of believers under Taqiyyah. In fact some hadith indicate that Hassan and Hussain prayed behind

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 05:11:53 PM »
@zlatan

My point is that one way or another all more or less all people accept or are forced to accept a person amongst them.
Sunni or shia or whatever its the same.

So if Allah SWT was to always appoint the leader then your logic dicates astagfirullah that Allah SWT has failed in terms of the real world.


Rationalist

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 05:38:24 PM »
Refer to this link about the imams praying behind Marwaan.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235000228-did-imam-hussain-as-pray-behind-marwan/

Hadrami

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 12:12:43 AM »
Ok so according to shia, the caliphate is illegimate, but most if not all of the caliphs received their legitimacy from ALL 11 imam. One of the worst caliph according to shia (mu'awiya) wouldn't be a caliph without direct involvement & help from 2nd imam.

Dont you think you should blame the  sunni AND imam for their involvement in giving this so called false system a long lasting legitimacy? Ok i know, if shia brain went to meltdown due to what the imam did, theres always "it was taqiyya!" card 😂
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 02:04:00 AM by Hadrami »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 02:04:50 AM »
How is it that Allah and His Prophet want us, the greatest Ummah, to be legitimately led by such fasiqs?

Please elaborate in what sense the fasiqs led the Ummah? You mean spiritually or politically?

Farid

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2017, 05:13:26 PM »
Good luck trying to avoid a polemical discussion by asking a question like that one bro. Hahah!

Here is my attempt at a straight answer:

It all depends on what you mean by legitamacy. Does that mean that Allah is satisfied with the ruler?

To us, a ruler is to be obeyed in matters that he is not ordering a transgression. I am not aware of a rule that says: Don't follow rulers that Allah is not satisfied with.

The same applies to a ruler that is not from Quraish. The nass says that the ruler has to be from Quraish. However, the nass also orders us to obey rulers that are not from Quraish.

Keep in mind that a ruler's sins are his own. Also, there is maslaha for citizens to follow the orders of a ruler.

I said I'll try not to be polemical, but I'll try to give an example of what I mean: the Sunni system allows anyone to become a Caliph as long as he assumes power, and not just Caliph, also common day rulership too (modern day Muslim presidents etc...).

However, for example, in the modern day Usooli marja'iyya system, one of the known conditions to the legitimacy of following a marja is adala. Should he lose his adala, he is not a legitimate marja (until his adala returns atleast).

It seems to me that the Sunni system of khilafa gives a green light to anyone, if they are from Quraysh, to assume position and do what he wants as long as he doesn't reach the point of kufr. Adala is hardly considered.

Which is why I am asking: is that what Allah planned for the Ummah after the Prophet's death?

Maybe I wasn't too clear with my first post. Briefly, I meant to say that one is to follow the ruler even if he is "illegitimate".

Allah wanted the rulers to all be good rulers and He wanted all their subjects to be good people. However, He ordained something else to happen and allowed fasaqa and kuffar to rule.

glorfindel

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 08:24:52 PM »
First of all this isn't a polemical topic, so don't start comparing our system of Imamah and khilafa to your system of khilafa. I just want an honest answer, with you defending your sect.

The Sunni Caliphate system has produced drunkards, oppressors and reportedly even faggots leading the Muslim communities. You can look at the accursed Caliphs of the Ummayad dynasty, you will find many examples to what I stated above.

The Shia Caliphate did not fare much better - the Fatimids had one fella who called Al-Hakim Bi Amrillah (d.13/02/1021) called himself God!  The point that you miss is that All of us including these Caliphs are obliged to follow Rasulallah (saw), no one is obliged to follow the Caliphs if they are not following Rasulallah (saw); Abu Bakr (ra) said as much in the beginning of his rule "... Obey me as long as I obeyed Allah and His messenger, so if I disobey Allah and His messenger then you owe me no obedience." - Al-Bidayah

How is it that Allah and His Prophet want us, the greatest Ummah, to be legitimately led by such fasiqs?

We are a reflection of the leaders that lead us - this is a pointed fact, when in one of the battles during the Fitna a man from Ali's (ra) camp came and asked him, "during the time of the Shiekhayn we didn't have such troubles but how come we have these issues in your time" Ali (ra) replied "In there time they ruled over men like me, and in my time I must rule over men like you"

I hope this helps.

Hani

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2017, 10:07:20 PM »
The "Sunni" system does list rules for one to become leader, these rules include justice, piety and knowledge. However, sometimes a tyrant will assume authority by force, then you'll have to deal with the reality of the situation in the least costly way.

Most leaders in ancient as well as modern history have not been satisfactory in terms of strict religious criteria, this applies to all nations throughout the ages. This is the nature of humanity for the most part, greedy filthy men always seek positions of power. Heck, we've seen prophetic narrations discouraging us from selecting leaders who actively seek authority. The test of a tyrant oppressor proves to be a great test for pious and patient believers time and again, maybe this is God's wisdom, that the best of humanity be tested by the filth of humanity, after-all this life is a test.

If you research in the Qur'an and Sunnah, you'll find a great deal of divine advice as to how to deal with bad leaders. Our duties towards them and their duties towards us.

The means of selecting a leader are left to the experts to decide in Islam, a lot of Muslims adopt democracy as the best means of choosing leaders, I tend to prefer the system of the rule of elites. In the end, no matter what system you choose it matters not, for if the wrong person is chosen he will not govern well nor will you be pleased, if the right person is chosen he will win the people's hearts even if he is a monarch. Islam simply teaches us how to deal with certain realities in life, anything else is unrealistic and from there some people criticized the Imami belief in infallible divine heads of state.

I do stress this important point that was brought up previously by some brothers (in an unfitting way), a bad leader or corrupt one is still much better than a non-existent or absent  leader. Ponder on this point objectively.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2017, 12:12:43 AM »
I do stress this important point that was brought up previously by some brothers (in an unfitting way), a bad leader or corrupt one is still much better than a non-existent or absent  leader. Ponder on this point objectively.
lets not say bad & corrupt leader is "much better", because it sounds like we are OK with his bad & corrupt ways. For sure, even bad & corrupt leaders have done many useful things compare to someone who is non exsistent and hiding all his life. A bad & corrupt leader will fight & protect his nation from his enemy, not to be scared for his life and hiding for 1000+ yrs leaving his people to fend for themselves, confused & in the end using system similar to sunni (follow non divinely appointed scholars & leaders). Shia will say i ridicule their mahdi, but fail to understand it is the reality of their ridiculous imama mixed with ghayba system. Your system is unrealistic & your "great" imama mythical system has been busted
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 12:19:34 AM by Hadrami »

Hani

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2017, 01:18:12 AM »
Here's the thing though bro, the OP requested that we do not discuss the Shia system or compare to Imami beliefs. He just wants to discuss mainstream Islam and its views on leadership and politics. I would recommend two books that discuss leadership from Sunni perspective:

Al-Muqaddimah al Zahra' fi Idah al Imamat al Kubra By Imam al-Dhahabi.
http://ia600200.us.archive.org/8/items/waq96941/96941.pdf

Ghiyath-ul-Umam Filtiyath al-Dhulam by Imam al-Juwayni.
https://ia802606.us.archive.org/13/items/FP0414/0414.pdf

These are two very traditional books that you can download (maybe in English if available) so you can learn about it from the perspective of traditionalists.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Farid


Noor-us-Sunnah


Hadrami

Re: Sunni Caliphate System
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2017, 02:23:50 PM »
Here's the thing though bro, the OP requested that we do not discuss the Shia system or compare to Imami beliefs.
of course he doesnt wanna discuss shia system, because when we compare our system and theirs, any sincere person can tell which one works and which one is just mythical theory. No wonder in the end they themselves copy us. Our "illegitemate" system has been proven to be practical, their "legitimate" system has been proven to be mythical

 

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