Sunni Caliphate System

[Hani]

Alright let me write a VERY brief summary of what the traditionalists require as criteria for Imamah:

Physique, sensory ability, lineage, necessary qualities, gender, acquired merits...

As far as senses: He cannot be blind, deaf or mute for obvious reasons like his own independence, communication, accessibility, planning and strategizing etc...

As far as physical parts: Any missing or damaged part that does not constitute an obstacle towards fulfilling your duties as Imam, such as your mobility, your activity, your health etc... As for deformities, such as being bald, one-eyed, scarred from injury or any birth deformity these are non-issues acc to majority.

As far as lineage: The majority agreed on the Qurashi Nasab but if a non-Qurashi reaches authority he is accepted in case he is chosen in the absence of a qualified Qurashi or he conquers by force through revolutions and becomes de-facto leader.

As far as gender: Majority agreed on the Imamah of men over women.

As far as liberty: They do not allow the owned servants to rule over free men.

As far as age: They required maturity.

As far as brain function: Sanity is a must.

As far as necessary qualities: A sufficient degree of courage, honor, justice, ethics are required. This is to lead wars, make decisive decisions, forbid evil and encourage good, earn people's respect, rule fairly among many other matters and qualities they discussed. Even though no one is perfect, yet those who possess the biggest share of such qualities are the first candidates.

As far as acquired virtues and merits: Knowledge and piety are essential. Often required to be in the status of an independent Mufti who is cautious of God, wise and experienced in politics and state affairs.

etc..etc... It's much longer and more detailed than this but this is a sample. Of course, what is sought is not always found so we do our best to choose the closest candidate to these criteria and we deal with the unfortunate times when oppressive tyrants rule in the wisest manners.

[wannabe]

http://mahajjah.com/navigating-the-complexities-of-leadership-imamah-by-imam-al-dhahabial-muqaddimah-al-zahra-fi-idah-al-imamat-al-kubra/

Al-Thahabi's work in English. Great short read.

salam bro,
Page 5

The Ahl al-Sunnah, Muʿtazilah, Murji’ah, Shīʿah and Khawārij—with the exception of the Najdiyyah—all agree on the necessity of imāmah (leadership), and that obedience to an imām ʿādil (just imām) is compulsory upon the Ummah.

who are  these najdiyyah?

[wannabe]

quran [76:24]
"Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not
from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one".

any thoughts if the above ayat applicable to rulers as well?

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

salam bro,
Page 5

The Ahl al-Sunnah, Muʿtazilah, Murji’ah, Shīʿah and Khawārij—with the exception of the Najdiyyah—all agree on the necessity of imāmah (leadership), and that obedience to an imām ʿādil (just imām) is compulsory upon the Ummah.

who are  these najdiyyah?

The quote continues as:

{...However, the Najdiyyah—a sect within the Khawarij—say that imamah is not necessary}.

So this was a sect within the Khawarij, as per Imam Dhahabi. Ofcourse, a typical jahil would think it has something to do with Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab Najdi, but the fact is this was a sect that emerged centuries before Mohammad ibn Abdul Wahab's birth.

quran [76:24]
"Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not
from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one".

any thoughts if the above ayat applicable to rulers as well?

This verse and the verse before it, was for Prophet Muhammad(saws) in specific. It is not a general command.

Verily! It is We Who have sent down the Quran to you (O Muhammad SAW) by stages. Therefore be patient (O Muhammad SAW) and submit to the Command of your Lord (Allah, by doing your duty to Him and by conveying His Message to mankind), and obey neither a sinner nor a disbeliever among them.[Quran 76: 23-24 ; Muhsin Khan and Mohammad al-Hilal]

The pronoun is also singular, it says (رَبِّكَ) RabbiKA/your(singular) Lord. If it was general then, the pronoun should have been plural. RabbiKUM(رَّبِّكُمْ).

As for obeying or following fallible rulers or scholars/people. Then this is proven from Quran. Like the verse 4:59, where in Ulil Amr are not infallible, if they were infallible then there was no scope to dispute with them and to refer back to Allah and Prophet(saws).

Secondly, We read in Quran:

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him...(Quran 9:100).

Muhajireen and Ansar were fallible people, yet those who followed them are praised.

Moreover, Shia obey and follow their Scholars, esp. the Marja whose Taqleed they make. They are fallible.

Lastly, the verse you used cannot be used in general sense because:

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مَنِيعٍ، حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدُ بْنُ الْحُبَابِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ مَسْعَدَةَ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏:‏ ‏ "‏ كُلُّ بَنِي آدَمَ خَطَّاءٌ وَخَيْرُ الْخَطَّائِينَ التَّوَّابُونَ ‏"
It was narrated from Anas that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “Every son of Adam commits sin, and the best of those who commit sin are those who repent.’”[Sunan Ibn Majah, Book 37, Hadith 4392; Hasan]

[wannabe]

salam bro,
Page 5

The Ahl al-Sunnah, Muʿtazilah, Murji’ah, Shīʿah and Khawārij—with the exception of the Najdiyyah—all agree on the necessity of imāmah (leadership), and that obedience to an imām ʿādil (just imām) is compulsory upon the Ummah.

who are  these najdiyyah?

The quote continues as:

{...However, the Najdiyyah—a sect within the Khawarij—say that imamah is not necessary}.

So this was a sect within the Khawarij, as per Imam Dhahabi. Ofcourse, a typical jahil would think it has something to do with Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab Najdi, but the fact is this was a sect that emerged centuries before Mohammad ibn Abdul Wahab's birth.

thanks. my bad.

quran [76:24]
"Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not
from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one".

any thoughts if the above ayat applicable to rulers as well?

This verse and the verse before it, was for Prophet Muhammad(saws) in specific. It is not a general command.

Verily! It is We Who have sent down the Quran to you (O Muhammad SAW) by stages. Therefore be patient (O Muhammad SAW) and submit to the Command of your Lord (Allah, by doing your duty to Him and by conveying His Message to mankind), and obey neither a sinner nor a disbeliever among them.[Quran 76: 23-24 ; Muhsin Khan and Mohammad al-Hilal]

The pronoun is also singular, it says (رَبِّكَ) RabbiKA/your(singular) Lord. If it was general then, the pronoun should have been plural. RabbiKUM(رَّبِّكُمْ).

As for obeying or following fallible rulers or scholars/people. Then this is proven from Quran. Like the verse 4:59, where in Ulil Amr are not infallible, if they were infallible then there was no scope to dispute with them and to refer back to Allah and Prophet(saws).

Secondly, We read in Quran:

And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him...(Quran 9:100).

Muhajireen and Ansar were fallible people, yet those who followed them are praised.

Moreover, Shia obey and follow their Scholars, esp. the Marja whose Taqleed they make. They are fallible.

Lastly, the verse you used cannot be used in general sense because:

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مَنِيعٍ، حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدُ بْنُ الْحُبَابِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ مَسْعَدَةَ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏:‏ ‏ "‏ كُلُّ بَنِي آدَمَ خَطَّاءٌ وَخَيْرُ الْخَطَّائِينَ التَّوَّابُونَ ‏"
It was narrated from Anas that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “Every son of Adam commits sin, and the best of those who commit sin are those who repent.’”[Sunan Ibn Majah, Book 37, Hadith 4392; Hasan]

thanks once again.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

First of all this isn't a polemical topic, so don't start comparing our system of Imamah and khilafa to your system of khilafa. I just want an honest answer, with you defending your sect.

The Sunni Caliphate system has produced drunkards, oppressors and reportedly even faggots leading the Muslim communities. You can look at the accursed Caliphs of the Ummayad dynasty, you will find many examples to what I stated above.

The Shia Caliphate did not fare much better - the Fatimids had one fella who called Al-Hakim Bi Amrillah (d.13/02/1021) called himself God!  The point that you miss is that All of us including these Caliphs are obliged to follow Rasulallah (saw), no one is obliged to follow the Caliphs if they are not following Rasulallah (saw); Abu Bakr (ra) said as much in the beginning of his rule "... Obey me as long as I obeyed Allah and His messenger, so if I disobey Allah and His messenger then you owe me no obedience." - Al-Bidayah

How is it that Allah and His Prophet want us, the greatest Ummah, to be legitimately led by such fasiqs?

We are a reflection of the leaders that lead us - this is a pointed fact, when in one of the battles during the Fitna a man from Ali's (ra) camp came and asked him, "during the time of the Shiekhayn we didn't have such troubles but how come we have these issues in your time" Ali (ra) replied "In there time they ruled over men like me, and in my time I must rule over men like you"

I hope this helps.

It doesn't really help. Those Shi'a Caliphates are as valuable to me as those Sunni ones. Same illegitimacy.

Also, I didn't say we are not a reflection of who leads us. The critetia for appointing someone as a leader in Sunnism is pretty bad. Why? There is no criteria for adala. Anyone who is a male Muslim who is sane and of Qurayshi lineage and bla bla bla can lead the Ummah even if he is the worst of sinners.

[Hani]

I gave you criteria above from a traditional Sunni book in reply #20. Why did you default to "Sunnies have no criteria?" We have more criteria than Shia, it's Shia who actually have only one criteria "Appointed Imam from Ahlul-Bayt", simple enough. The case of the Shia is like someone who is trying to figure out the criteria for a prophet that he may choose, in that case God chooses the prophet you don't need to worry about criteria. Sunni criteria is common sense, but the circumstances block this from being implemented often. The least that can be said is that Sunni ideas are a lot more rooted in reality, they deal with the reality on the ground instead of the useless "criteria" of the Imamis that can never and has never been implemented at all. How practical is a sect that claims leadership is restricted to a certain divine infallible descendant who is inaccessible?

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

I gave you criteria above from a traditional Sunni book in reply #20. Why did you default to "Sunnies have no criteria?" We have more criteria than Shia, it's Shia who actually have only one criteria "Appointed Imam from Ahlul-Bayt", simple enough. The case of the Shia is like someone who is trying to figure out the criteria for a prophet that he may choose, in that case God chooses the prophet you don't need to worry about criteria. Sunni criteria is common sense, but the circumstances block this from being implemented often. The least that can be said is that Sunni ideas are a lot more rooted in reality, they deal with the reality on the ground instead of the useless "criteria" of the Imamis that can never and has never been implemented at all. How practical is a sect that claims leadership is restricted to a certain divine infallible descendant who is inaccessible?

Your criteria is what is in theory, not in practice. Whether the Muslim leader fulfills some of these requirements or not, he is obligatory to obey according to you guys.

In the absence of the Imam we still have people of authority in the Shi'i world. I will give the example of the fuqaha, whose criteria is much more rigirous than the non-practical yet still simple criteria you gave me.

One of the important ones is: adala. Strike one (once you lose your adala) and your out, you're not even allowed to be followed anymore for taqleed purposes. Unless you repent.

[iceman]

Those Muslims who claim that they follow the traditions (the statements and practices) of Muhammad Mustafa, the Prophe of Islam, and of his companions, are called Ahl-es-Sunnat wal-Jama'at or Sunni. They also call themselves “orthodox” Muslims, and they make up the overwhelming majority of the Muslims in the world.

The Sunni Muslims believe that the Prophet of Islam did not designate anyone as his successor, and he (probably) assumed that after his death, the Muslims would find a leader for themselves. They further say that the Prophet did not even tell his followers how they ought to select their future leaders or what qualifications those leaders should have.

Thus, lacking both precedent and guidance in the matter of finding their leaders, the companions had no choice but to take recourse to improvisation.

But improvisation is not policy, and inevitably, it turned out to be a rather erratic manner of finding leaders of the Muslim umma (community). In one case the companions found a leader through what was supposed to be an election.

In another case, the first incumbent (who was elected), nominated and appointed his own successor.

In the third instance, the second incumbent (who was nominated), appointed a committee of six men and charged them with the duty of selecting one out of themselves as the future leader of the Muslim community.

The third leader, so selected, was killed in the midst of anarchy and chaos, and the umma was left without a head. The companions then turned to the family of their Prophet, and appealed to one of its members to take charge of the government of the Muslims, and thereby to save it from breakdown and dissolution.

The fourth incumbent was still ruling the Muslims when a new candidate for leadership arose in Syria. He brushed aside the hoax of election, challenged the lawful sovereign of the Muslims by invoking the principle of brute force, and succeeded in capturing the government. His action brought the number of the “principles” for finding leaders of the Muslim umma to four, viz.

[iceman]

1. Election
Abu Bakr was elected khalifa (successor of the Prophet) by a vote in Saqifa.(Ali ibn Abi Talib, the fourth incumbent, was also elected khalifa by a majority of the Muhajireen and Ansar who were present in Medina at the death of the third khalifa).

2. Nomination:
Umar was appointed by Abu Bakr as his successor.

3. Selection by plutocrats:
Uthman was selected khalifa by a committee of six men appointed by Umar.

4. Seizure of the government by naked force:
Muawiya bin Abu Sufyan seized the government of the Muslims by military action.

The Sunni Muslims consider all these four “principles” as lawful and valid. In this manner, four different “constitutional” modes of finding a leader for the Muslim umma came into being.

Here it should be pointed out that though the Sunni Muslims have given to each of these four different modes of finding leaders for the umma, the “status” of a “principle,” none of them was derived from the Book of God (Qur’an) or from the Book of the Prophet (Hadith). All of them were derived from the events which took place after the death of the Prophet of Islam.

In the history of any country, constitution-making is the first step toward nation-building. The constitution is the organic law of the land. It is the basic framework of public authority. It determines and defines the responsibilities, duties and powers of the government.

All major decisions affecting the interests of the nation, are taken in the light of its principles. Whatever is in agreement with it, is held legal and valid; whatever is not, is discarded as unconstitutional.

[Abu Muhammad]

You can't even proof from your own books that each and every imam choosed his next imam. So much so for the so-called divine appointment.

[Link]

So Sunnis had an opinion on government. What else is new of people deciding what and who should govern?

I am interested in one thing only: how to make God rule humanity and submission to him become an accurate reality.

Not to fabrications by Jinn Worshippers deceiving humans, not the sorcery and love of world type authority that Pharaoh argued by and said "don't you see Egypt is under me".

I want the truth to rule, and the truth is God's Name truly rules humanity because that is where the consequences of hell and paradise happens, and that is where we gain value or negative condemnation, and that is where we gain everything or lose everything, and God's Name per Quran is a reminder to who he is by which all things can glorify God and connect to God, and it is the leader who he has encompassed all things in, the witness of the people who they will be called with, their leader, their Captain, their driver.

Whether this truth is hidden or manifest, the kingdom belongs to God, and his authority is given to who he pleases.

[Abu Muhammad]

The truth and the reality is that your current imam never rules. No proof whatsoever.

As for me, he doesn't exist in the first place. Those khumm scammers of the 3rd AH invented him. You guys are conned by them.

[Link]

If the dark shadows are given reign and taken authority, it doesn't mean the light brought down and revealed and way and door out of the darkness and the way towards safety and security is not the King, because God is the True King.

The Quran remains the true leader of humanity and Mohammad was a reminder brought down, and it is a leader due to the leaders it appoints and nominates, the leaders who guide by God's command, the Twelve Captains, the ways, the rivers and pure springs from God, the beautiful Names of God, the Signs of God, the adornment of God brought out for his servants.

[Abu Muhammad]

If the dark shadows are given reign and taken authority, it doesn't mean the light brought down and revealed and way and door out of the darkness and the way towards safety and security is not the King, because God is the True King.

The Quran remains the true leader of humanity and Mohammad was a reminder brought down, and it is a leader due to the leaders it appoints and nominates, the leaders who guide by God's command, the Twelve Captains, the ways, the rivers and pure springs from God, the beautiful Names of God, the Signs of God, the adornment of God brought out for his servants.

What are you trying to say there, Mr. Plato? Too philosophical for me.

By the way, as I understood, no proof whatsoever that each and every imam of yours appointed his next imam. There might be there for a few appointments, but for all of the appointments, good luck searching for that proof.

[Link]

God providing proof is one thing, as using reasoning to assess proofs and see is another.

Remember, people thought they would believe always before demanding an exact miracle. When the miracle was provided, they moved the goal posts.

This is nothing new.  Quran verifies not only the family of Mohammad but the exact number of the Twelve Imams and their exact number in all covenants of the moon green light mountain in the past, but once you accept their number, you can also see themes that verify the exact names of the Imams, but it takes time to see.

But you haven't even acknowledged Ali in there yet and all the allusions to his station and name, you ignore. And their names and their wisdom are explained in conjunction with the Shariah and there are so many themes in Quran that we have not even begun to scratch the surface of.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Great. My thread has been derailed. Emotions run deep here, it seems.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

1. Election
Abu Bakr was elected khalifa (successor of the Prophet) by a vote in Saqifa.(Ali ibn Abi Talib, the fourth incumbent, was also elected khalifa by a majority of the Muhajireen and Ansar who were present in Medina at the death of the third khalifa).

2. Nomination:
Umar was appointed by Abu Bakr as his successor.

3. Selection by plutocrats:
Uthman was selected khalifa by a committee of six men appointed by Umar.

4. Seizure of the government by naked force:
Muawiya bin Abu Sufyan seized the government of the Muslims by military action.

The Sunni Muslims consider all these four “principles” as lawful and valid. In this manner, four different “constitutional” modes of finding a leader for the Muslim umma came into being.

Here it should be pointed out that though the Sunni Muslims have given to each of these four different modes of finding leaders for the umma, the “status” of a “principle,” none of them was derived from the Book of God (Qur’an) or from the Book of the Prophet (Hadith). All of them were derived from the events which took place after the death of the Prophet of Islam.

In the history of any country, constitution-making is the first step toward nation-building. The constitution is the organic law of the land. It is the basic framework of public authority. It determines and defines the responsibilities, duties and powers of the government.

All major decisions affecting the interests of the nation, are taken in the light of its principles. Whatever is in agreement with it, is held legal and valid; whatever is not, is discarded as unconstitutional.

This is one of the oft quoted hadeeth by Shia propagandists. It seems that they don't realize that, what they try to use against Muawiya(ra) and Sunnis, backfires at them at some point of time.

Abi Al-'Aliyah narrated: Abu Zarr said to Yazid bin Abu Sufyan: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah (saws) say: “The first one to change my Sunnah will be a man from Banu Umayyah.”

Allama Albani commented: Perhaps what is meant by the hadith is changing the system of election of the Khalifah, and turning it into succession.

[AL-AWA'IL BY IBN ABI 'AASIM: 63; DECLARED HASAN BY ALLAMA ALBANI IN SILSILAH AS- SAHEEHA: 1749]

Abubakr(ra) and Umar(ra) both weren't from Bani Umayyah. 

This hadeeth of Prophet(saws) legalizes the selection process of all khulafa rashideen, which includes Abubakr, umar and Uthman as well.

Not only this, but the authentic hadeeth about the caliphate on methodology of Prophethood being for 30 years also legalizes the caliphate of Abubakr, umar, uthman and Ali(ra).

Any objective reader would prefer the opinion of Prophet(saws) on theses issues over the arguments of bias and hateful Shias.

[Mythbuster1]

Those Muslims who claim that they follow the traditions (the statements and practices) of Muhammad Mustafa, the Prophe of Islam, and of his companions, are called Ahl-es-Sunnat wal-Jama'at or Sunni. They also call themselves “orthodox” Muslims, and they make up the overwhelming majority of the Muslims in the world.

The Sunni Muslims believe that the Prophet of Islam did not designate anyone as his successor, and he (probably) assumed that after his death, the Muslims would find a leader for themselves. They further say that the Prophet did not even tell his followers how they ought to select their future leaders or what qualifications those leaders should have.

Thus, lacking both precedent and guidance in the matter of finding their leaders, the companions had no choice but to take recourse to improvisation.

But improvisation is not policy, and inevitably, it turned out to be a rather erratic manner of finding leaders of the Muslim umma (community). In one case the companions found a leader through what was supposed to be an election.

In another case, the first incumbent (who was elected), nominated and appointed his own successor.

In the third instance, the second incumbent (who was nominated), appointed a committee of six men and charged them with the duty of selecting one out of themselves as the future leader of the Muslim community.

The third leader, so selected, was killed in the midst of anarchy and chaos, and the umma was left without a head. The companions then turned to the family of their Prophet, and appealed to one of its members to take charge of the government of the Muslims, and thereby to save it from breakdown and dissolution.

The fourth incumbent was still ruling the Muslims when a new candidate for leadership arose in Syria. He brushed aside the hoax of election, challenged the lawful sovereign of the Muslims by invoking the principle of brute force, and succeeded in capturing the government. His action brought the number of the “principles” for finding leaders of the Muslim umma to four, viz.

How can there be lack of guidance when there was NO SUCH INSTRUCTION.....I keep asking you for CLEAR proof of that but all your posts you couldn't, so that theory is dead.

Yes election, ELECTED from consultation SHURA, Abu Bakr ra didn't want to but was chosen just like the 4th, as well as the 2 in between.

Abu Bakr ra elected by shura and was SELECTED, (even though in Islam Abu Bakr ra was a choice of the prophet saw also)

Umar ra was a candidate put forward, SELECTED,but eventually chosen and agreed by shura

Uthman ra again consulted and chosen by shura

Ali ra same situation as first khalif SELECTED and then agreement within shura

Allah swt blessed their rule and it spread far and wide.

Yet........the world has NEVER seen a divine imam rule, where is it? In Narnia?

This shura is sure killing off the divine Imamate theory, intelligently and logically, as can be seen.

[iceman]

Those Muslims who claim that they follow the traditions (the statements and practices) of Muhammad Mustafa, the Prophe of Islam, and of his companions, are called Ahl-es-Sunnat wal-Jama'at or Sunni. They also call themselves “orthodox” Muslims, and they make up the overwhelming majority of the Muslims in the world.

The Sunni Muslims believe that the Prophet of Islam did not designate anyone as his successor, and he (probably) assumed that after his death, the Muslims would find a leader for themselves. They further say that the Prophet did not even tell his followers how they ought to select their future leaders or what qualifications those leaders should have.

Thus, lacking both precedent and guidance in the matter of finding their leaders, the companions had no choice but to take recourse to improvisation.

But improvisation is not policy, and inevitably, it turned out to be a rather erratic manner of finding leaders of the Muslim umma (community). In one case the companions found a leader through what was supposed to be an election.

In another case, the first incumbent (who was elected), nominated and appointed his own successor.

In the third instance, the second incumbent (who was nominated), appointed a committee of six men and charged them with the duty of selecting one out of themselves as the future leader of the Muslim community.

The third leader, so selected, was killed in the midst of anarchy and chaos, and the umma was left without a head. The companions then turned to the family of their Prophet, and appealed to one of its members to take charge of the government of the Muslims, and thereby to save it from breakdown and dissolution.

The fourth incumbent was still ruling the Muslims when a new candidate for leadership arose in Syria. He brushed aside the hoax of election, challenged the lawful sovereign of the Muslims by invoking the principle of brute force, and succeeded in capturing the government. His action brought the number of the “principles” for finding leaders of the Muslim umma to four, viz.

How can there be lack of guidance when there was NO SUCH INSTRUCTION.....I keep asking you for CLEAR proof of that but all your posts you couldn't, so that theory is dead.

Yes election, ELECTED from consultation SHURA, Abu Bakr ra didn't want to but was chosen just like the 4th, as well as the 2 in between.

Abu Bakr ra elected by shura and was SELECTED, (even though in Islam Abu Bakr ra was a choice of the prophet saw also)

Umar ra was a candidate put forward, SELECTED,but eventually chosen and agreed by shura

Uthman ra again consulted and chosen by shura

Ali ra same situation as first khalif SELECTED and then agreement within shura

Allah swt blessed their rule and it spread far and wide.

Yet........the world has NEVER seen a divine imam rule, where is it? In Narnia?

This shura is sure killing off the divine Imamate theory, intelligently and logically, as can be seen.

LOL. I don't need to repeat myself over and over and over again and again based on your constantly denial. You have either divine Imamate or Shura. Your Khilafat isn't based on either of them. The first was picked coincidently.   The second was appointed by the first as his successor.The third was picked by a six man committee to decide amongst themselves. Your Shura has just been blown out of the window. LOL.