Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed

[muslim720]

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Syed Ali and the Bayat al Ghadeer quoted the following narration perhaps to prove our anthropomorphism:

Narrated Abu Huraira (ra): The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Allah will take the whole earth (in His Hand) and will roll up the Heaven in His right Hand, and then He will say, "I am King! Where are the kings of the earth?"

Within minutes, brother Hassan Shemrani refutes this slimy nutjob by sharing the following verse, "They made not a just estimate of Allāh such as is due to Him.  And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand.  Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him".  (Surah Az-Zumar verse 67)

[Asif Hussain]

This is Sayed Ali's response in 'Revisiting the salaf' facebook group.

"Islam teaches us not to be harsh in words and this helps people to listen and change. This is the ethics of the Ahlulbayt (a.s). In this way the message will is reached to a person who is open minded seeking the truth. If they attack me personally I can swallow that. However when they attack Allah (swt) the Prophet (saw) and his progeny (a.s) Allah (swt) etc in public, my tone totally changes. Islam justifies it then and we have examples in hadith and in general principles from the Quran concerning that. And remember the hukm/hadd on those who insult any Ahlulbayt (a.s), so in that case they are getting off very lightly just by being publically humiliated with words and refutation if I was to respond in such a manner. But of course even without hadd they will be cursed in this life and face a big torture in the hellfire and in the grave.

I am not the type of individual who would personally attack anyone in my videos or comments. A brother brought this my attention. This is supposed to be a response to the recent shows on Bayat al Gadheer regarding the 'Sunni concept of Tawheed'. For those who didn't watch it we did 3+ hours show between the connection of anthropomorphism and the Sunni Athari interruption of the attributes of Allah (swt) according to their Hadith and Quranic verses.

If you notice only ONE Hadith was presented. It also gives the impression that I was not aware of this verse (even though it is not identical to the Hadith which he admits in the video) at no point did I or anyone in the show suggest that such verses (Sifat al Khabariyyah) are not mentioned in the Quran i.e, Allah having eyes, hands, face etc. Our issue is not with the verses rather the Taweel (interruption) to them and the problem with taking them literally. At least one thing came out of this video and that is they do not offer any interruption to them!

Note: I have included just some of many Hadith that support their anthropomorphic beliefs from their most authentic books."

[MuslimK]

If you notice only ONE Hadith was presented. It also gives the impression that I was not aware of this verse...

^ That is an indirect admission that he was wrong but doesn't want to admit due to arrogance.

[MuslimAnswers]

^

One wonders what is up with the veiled threat of applying "Hudood". In any case, the thinkers/metaphysicians of Sunnism are quite aware that all language used to describe of Allah the Exalted must be approached within certain bounds and prerequisites, not only with regards to authentic Ahadith, but even what is more epistemically certain than that, namely the text of the Quran.

Using Mr. Ali's method, one could summarily dismiss the Ahadith, the Quran and Islam as a whole, and at most believe in a 'remote God' who does not and cannot have any impact on the observable Universe, just like many 'Enlightenment' Euro-Americans did.

[muslim720]

Why am I not surprised (that Syed Ali had the gall to try to defend his huge blunder)?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Why can’t he just admit that he wasn’t aware it was in the Quran & repent for mocking something which is clearly worded almost identically in the Quran.

[Hugo Boss]

woah, dont you know guys? We the Shias take the verses like these ones as metaphoricals. Allah SWT does NOT have two hands (which are unlike any other). He does not have a body. These verses are metaphorical.
Here is something to think about. (If this gets refuted, then only "Hugo Boss" got refuted, since I thought of this). If Allah has two hands, and is the greatest, then it should be impossible for me to imagine a god greater than Allah SWT. Right?
If He then has two hands, what is greater? Having 2 cars or 3 cars? Its greater to have 3 cars than having 2 cars. Thereby, if I imagine a god that is the exact same as Allah, but he has 3 hands, then is that god not greater?
Here is something you might reply with. "Well now this imaginary god needs an extra hand to function as a god, while Allah only needs 2".
my reply would be: Then once again, I can think of a lord even greater. A lord that only has one hand, for he is able to function as a god without having an extra hand (two hands).
by this logic, I can prove that the real independant God, Allah SWT (the real Allah SWT we the Shias worship), He does not even need hands, yet can function as if he had a hand(s). Can you think of a "bodily attribute" greater than Him? Before trying, I suggest you watch a sermon of Imam Ali (3).

[muslim720]

woah, dont you know guys? We the Shias take the verses like these ones as metaphoricals.

Whoa!  Don't you know that the creedal forefathers of Shi'i ideology were proponents of anthropomorphism?  Find brother Hani's video on the same channel to prove it.

Allah SWT does NOT have two hands (which are unlike any other). He does not have a body. These verses are metaphorical.

No one is saying that Allah (swt) has hands like us, naudhibillah.  However, if Allah (swt) says that He has Two Hands then we believe He has without explaining "His Hands" to be metaphorical or whatever.  How do they (His Hands) look?  Allahu Aalim!  We just affirm what He has revealed to us.

Our stance is the same as what the Imams (ra) taught in your own books.

Imam Reza (A.S) has been reported as having said: "In the subject of tawhid (divine unity), people are of three tendencies: 'Negation (of the attributes); likening (God's attributes to physical attributes) and substantiation of the attributes without likening.  It is not permissible to deny the attributes nor is it permissible to liken them.  And what is the right path and the correct method, is the establishment of the attributes without likening." (Sheikh Saduq, al-Tawhid, researched and corrected by Hussein, Hashem, p. 101, Islamic Publications Office, Qom, first edition, 1398 A.H.)

You might want to consider the following narration too before preaching to us!

And from him, from his father, from Sa’ad Bin Abdullah, from Ibrahim Bin Hashim, from Ibn Fazal, from Abu Jameela, from Muhammad Bin Ali Al-Halby, who has narrated:  ‘Abu Abdullah (asws) regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: On the Day He would Uncover from a side [68:42].  He asws said: ‘Blessed is the Mighty’ – Then gestured to his (asws) own side, so he (asws) uncovered from it the outfit – said: ‘and they would be called to do the Sajdah, but they will not be able to [68:42]’.

The point of contention, returning to the topic, was that Syed Ali mocked a narration in Sahih Bukhari not knowing that the exact same thing is found in the Qur'an so the issue is not the explanation of the verse but the message itself.

(If this gets refuted, then only "Hugo Boss" got refuted, since I thought of this).

But your own Imams (ra) condemned Hisham bin Hakam and Hisham bin Salem, your creedal forefathers, for anthropomorphism.  You are just a dot; your foundational scholars were proponents of anthropomorphism.

If Allah has two hands, and is the greatest, then it should be impossible for me to imagine a god greater than Allah SWT. Right?

This is why it is the belief of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah not to get into such discussions.  As the Imam (ra) said and is our belief, we neither negate nor liken these attributes.  We just affirm them without getting into the details.  The details of "how" are best known to Allah (swt).

[Hugo Boss]

That is to say we should believe in these attributes in such a way that we do not end up likening them to physical attributes, while you guys do believe in that. (the hadith about "attributes"). A bit of a better explanation.
Well, we believe He is not a physical entity (i.e. He has no physical body), nor do we believe He is confined in a space, nor do we believe that He confined in time. We believe He has no beginning nor end (i.e. Eternal), that He is all-powerful, all-seeing, all-hearing, and all names His mentioned in the Qur'an attribute him. He is the absolute perfect being without limits or needs. His power cannot be measured. All His traits are part of him (e.g., He was merciful before he created things to have mercy on). Also, he cannot change, not be subject to change (He knows the future, and what He will do, and does not change anything). Just to name of a few.

And who told you that I said that you believe in a god that has hands? I clearly said (like none other) as you guys love to say.
"Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Umran Al-Daqaq narrated to us, from Muhammad
Ibn Abu Abdullah Al-Kufy, from Muhammad Bin Ismail Al-Barmakky, from Al-Husayn Bin Al-Hassan,
from Bakr, from Al-Husayn Bin Saeed, who has narrated:
‘Abu Al-Hassanasws regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: On the Day He
would Uncover from a side, and they would be called to do the Sajdah [68:42],
he
asws said: ‘A Veil of Light would be Uncovered, so the Momineen would fall down in
Sajdah, and the backbones of the hypocrites would stiffen so they would not be able
to do Sajdah’.30

نمال الدين و تمام النعمة: 461 /21 ،تقّدم مع تخريجه و التعليق عليه ذيل اآلية )143 )من هذع السورة، الحديث )4 .)29
30 (1 /154 :التوحيد("
Abu Abdullahasws regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: On the Day He
would Uncover from a side [68:42]. Heasws said: ‘Blessed is the Mighty’ – Then
gestured to hisasws own side, so heasws uncovered from it the outfit – said: ‘and they
would be called to do the Sajdah, but they will not be able to [68:42]’.

Heasws said: ‘The people would understand, and the awe would enter into them, and
the visions would be humbled, and their hearts would reach to the throats’ Their
visions humbled, humiliation having tired them, and they had been called to
the Sajdah while they were safe (and sound) [68:43].
قال ابن بابويه: قوله: »تبارك اابار، و أشار إىل سهاقه فكشهف عنهها اإل ار« يعهين بهه تبهارك اابهار مهن أن يوصهف بالسها الهاي
هاا صفته.
Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘Hisasws words: ‘Blessed is the Compeller’ – Then gestured to
hisasws own side, and heasws uncovered from the outfit it, (and said): ‘It means by it,
‘Blessed is the Compeller from being described with the side, the description of
which is this’.31
https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerHub-e-Ali/CH68_SuraAlQalam_Verses1-52.pdf
how about you actually look up the meaning before picking and choosing? "before you come and preach"  sorry, but you know I had to do it to em'

[muslim720]

That is to say we should believe in these attributes in such a way that we do not end up likening them to physical attributes, while you guys do believe in that.

Actually, you do liken and limit Him.  The minute you say that these attributes are "metaphorical" and that Hand, for example, means "help of Allah (swt)" [which Shias do], you are limiting Him by defining His Hand in a way Allah (swt) did not define them, in a way for which you have no textual proof.  Whereas our stance is that Allah's (swt) attributes can only be defined by Him; their "how" is only known to Him.  We only affirm what He has revealed to us; that He has Two Hands, etc.

how about you actually look up the meaning before picking and choosing? "before you come and preach"  sorry, but you know I had to do it to em'

I have no issues with the "meaning" when all I wanted was for you to acknowledge (and accept) the gesture of the Imam (ra) against your own words.

[Hugo Boss]

I have no proof?
https://quran.com/3/7
"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

Just because your Lord says something, then that is not to be taken literal. Since you take these literal, then you are among these people mentioned in this verse.

How am I even limiting him? I thought you were not supposed to speak about this, but since you did, why dont you explain the proof I gave? That if we were to say Allah SWT Has something like a "hand" unlike any other, then he is still been limitted!

What do you mean by that? That you had no issues with the "meaning" when you wanted for me to acknowledge and accept what my Imams (3)'s words that supposedly go against my own words?! What do you mean!! I just showed you the meaning of that verse is yet again metaphorical, so your whole point on that "argument" is invalid.

[Hani]

Br Hugo,

I am not a Salafi and I do not adopt the stance of the early Muslims regarding God's names and attributes, yet I can assure you they do neither limit nor confine to a body.

When they understood things the way they did, they accepted the literal text without likening it to the physical creation, so if God attributed a hand to Himself, this hand is not of a physical nature, since physics are restricted to your world and do not extend beyond it.

All things in the after-life are not as they seem, these words are for the simple layperson to understand and comprehend, what you refer to as "Hand" here is not the same as what manifests in the beyond.

The Aristotelian philosophers and those who were influenced by them (including Jahmites/Mutazilites and by extension later Shia who attributed Mutazili creed to Ja`far) made a fundamental mistake by applying worldly physics to the after-life, that's why they got confused and confused others.

[muslim720]

Just because your Lord says something, then that is not to be taken literal.

Agreed!  We only affirm what Allah (swt) revealed.

Since you take these literal, then you are among these people mentioned in this verse.

Proof?  If anything, you just agreed with me that after stating "He would Uncover from a side", your Imam (ra) gestured to his own side and uncovered it.  I am sure you have a way to explain it.  I hope you are equally generous to hear ours (if you find such a thing in our texts that you misinterpret or have misunderstood).

How am I even limiting him?

I have experienced this many times and even seen Zain (from Bayat Al Ghadeer) make the claim.  When Shias are reminded that Allah (swt) attributes "Hands" or "Face" to Himself, they say, "it is metaphorical; hand means His Help..."  How do you know Allah (swt) means "help" when He says "Hand"?  The fact that you have specified a meaning for His Attribute, such as His Hand, is limiting Him.  You have set a limit or a boundary which dictates that no other definition can exist for "Hand" except "help".

What do you mean by that? That you had no issues with the "meaning" when you wanted for me to acknowledge and accept what my Imams (3)'s words that supposedly go against my own words?! What do you mean!! I just showed you the meaning of that verse is yet again metaphorical, so your whole point on that "argument" is invalid.

Already touched on this!

[Hugo Boss]

"Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘Hisasws words: ‘Blessed is the Compeller’ – Then gestured to
hisasws own side, and heasws uncovered from the outfit it, (and said): ‘It means by it,
‘Blessed is the Compeller from being described with the side, the description of
which is this’.31"

try to take your time and read what "the meaning" of this is. (yes, this is from the same tafsir)

[Hugo Boss]

"I am not a Salafi and I do not adopt the stance of the early Muslims regarding God's names and attributes, yet I can assure you they do neither limit nor confine to a body."

Dont worry, I got ibn Taymiyyah's opinion.
https://archive.org/stream/AlAqidahAlWasitiyahCommentraryBySalehAlUsayminVol1/123-163Mb#page/n61/mode/2up
Just read from page 125 at "It becomes clear (...)" till the end of the page.
"He rose over the Throne" - Al-A'raf 7:54
Meaning - rose above it; its meaning is not: "He conquered it," And with His Hand, meaning - Hand, in reality, not might or favor." - Ibn Taymiyyah

So dont do taqiyyah on me. 
btw, dont you believe you will see Allah's face in Jannah? That enough is a proof that you attribute physical things to Him.

[muslim720]

Dont worry, I got ibn Taymiyyah's opinion.
https://archive.org/stream/AlAqidahAlWasitiyahCommentraryBySalehAlUsayminVol1/123-163Mb#page/n61/mode/2up
Just read from page 125 at "It becomes clear (...)" till the end of the page.
"He rose over the Throne" - Al-A'raf 7:54
Meaning - rose above it; its meaning is not: "He conquered it," And with His Hand, meaning - Hand, in reality, not might or favor." - Ibn Taymiyyah

Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) is actually affirming that which is revealed in the Qur'an.  In fact, he is following the hadith I quoted you from your own Imam (ra).  Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) is saying exactly that but in different words.  He is saying that when Allah (swt) says, "He rose over the Throne", it is not that Allah (swt) conquered the Throne.  In other words, we affirm that Allah (swt) actually "rose over the throne" in a way best known to Him.  Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) then states that the same is true regarding Allah's (swt) "Hand".  When Allah (swt) mentions His "Hand", He means it in reality (I think you are erroneously equating the use of the term "reality" with our human hand).  His "Hand" cannot mean "his might or favor".

Allow me to quote the very next page, in fact, the very next paragraph to clarify His Hand "in reality":
"The People of the Sunnah and Jama'ah do not engage in saying how Allah's Attributes are, due to revealed evidences and rational evidences".

So dont do taqiyyah on me. 
btw, dont you believe you will see Allah's face in Jannah? That enough is a proof that you attribute physical things to Him.

Again, Allah (swt) says that the Believers will see His Face.  Do you deny that?  You don't!  Instead you give an actual, specific meaning to "His Face" and how it should be understood.  That right there is limiting Him.  You have limited the understanding of His Attributes to your own logic.

[muslim720]

....

[Hugo Boss]

(  ._.) how many times do I gotta tell you, what my Imams (3) said was that this verse was metaphorical. Khalas!

https://archive.org/stream/AlAqidahAlWasitiyahCommentraryBySalehAlUsayminVol1/123-163Mb#page/n115/mode/2up
yet again? page 233 "But if you by body, a Self maintaining itself, described as is befitting it, then we do affirm that. We say Allah, the Exalted, definitely has an essence, maintaining Himself, with the perfect Attributes. - Ibn Taymiyyah.

And again, how many times do I have to repeat this. I am telling you that YOU GUYS believe that Allah has a body - unlike any other, OR has hands - unlike any other. I am not saying you believe that he has hands like me and you, but with an extra finger. I am saying as it is said "unlike any other". But the thing is, the problems comes when you say that. (Because now I can think of a Lord greater than that)

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

(  ._.) how many times do I gotta tell you, what my Imams (3) said was that this verse was metaphorical. Khalas!

https://archive.org/stream/AlAqidahAlWasitiyahCommentraryBySalehAlUsayminVol1/123-163Mb#page/n115/mode/2up
yet again? page 233 "But if you by body, a Self maintaining itself, described as is befitting it, then we do affirm that. We say Allah, the Exalted, definitely has an essence, maintaining Himself, with the perfect Attributes. - Ibn Taymiyyah.

And again, how many times do I have to repeat this. I am telling you that YOU GUYS believe that Allah has a body - unlike any other, OR has hands - unlike any other. I am not saying you believe that he has hands like me and you, but with an extra finger. I am saying as it is said "unlike any other". But the thing is, the problems comes when you say that. (Because now I can think of a Lord greater than that)

When did this become a problem?

Esteemed Shia Scholar Shareef al-Murtada attempted to defend the position of Hisham bin al-Hakam, by stating:

فأما ما رمي به هشام بن الحكم رحمه الله بالتجسيم فالظاهر من الحكاية عنه القول بجسم لا كالأجسام. ولا خلاف في أن هذا القول ليس تشبيه ولا ناقض لأصل
As for the accusation that Hisham bin al-Hakam (rah) was a Mujassim; What’s apparent from the story is that he believed that God was a body unlike other bodies and there is no difference among us that this statement does not constitute Tashbih nor contradict any foundation. [al-Shafi 1/83-84]

Hasan bin al-Shaheed al-Thani said the similar thing:

    حكى السيد رحمه الله من كتاب أحمد بن محمد بن خالد البرقي في حال هشام انه قال: هشام بن الحكم، مولى بني شيبان كوفي، تحول من الكوفة إلى بغداد، وكنيته أبو محمد، وفي كتاب سعد: له كتاب، وكان من غلمان أبي شاكر الزنديق، جسمي رؤيي (2). قلت: ذكر المرتضى رضي الله عنه في كتاب الشافي جوابا لرمي هشام بالتجسيم ما هذا لفظه: فأما ما رمي به هشام بن الحكم رحمه الله من القول (3) بالتجسيم فالظاهر من الحكاية عنه القول بجسم لا كالاجسام، ولا خلاف في أن
    هذا القول ليس بتشبيه
it was narrated by Sayeed (may Allah forgive him) from the book of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid al-Barqi about Hisham: Hisham ibn Hakam, Mawla of Banu Shayban Kufi, moved from al-Kufa to Baghdad, and his kunya was Abu Muhammad, and in the book of Sad: He (Hisham) has a books, and was from servants of Abu Shakeer HERETIC, (HISHAM) HOLD ANTHROPOMORPHIC VIEWS. I say: Al-Murtada (may Allah be pleased with him) mentioned in his book ash-Shafi answer to the accusation of Hisham in anthropomorphism, with this words: As for accusation of Hisham ibn Hakam (may Allah forgive him) in anthropomorphism then what is apparent from what was narrated from him, he use to say (that Allah has) body not like (all) bodies, AND THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE VIEWS THAT THIS SAYING IS NOT LIKENING (ALLAH TO THE CREATION).[Tahrir at-Tawusi, p 594]

So your Scholars didn't view as something problematic, if a Shia believed that Allah has a body unlike any other body. But it seems you guys have evolved even in this matter as well, as you did in regards to your other beliefs.

[Hani]

If He then has two hands, what is greater? Having 2 cars or 3 cars? Its greater to have 3 cars than having 2 cars. Thereby, if I imagine a god that is the exact same as Allah, but he has 3 hands, then is that god not greater?

Simplistic argument, God Has 99 names, in theory I can imagine a god with 100 names, does that make him superior to Allah? God created 6 billion humans, I can imagine a god that created 100 billion humans, does that make him superior to Allah?

This doesn't even apply to humans, a single handed human can be very superior to a two handed human.