TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Quran-Tafseer => Topic started by: labelingtheory on February 23, 2015, 09:50:29 AM

Title: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: labelingtheory on February 23, 2015, 09:50:29 AM

Narrated Aisha 'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

Here is this hadith:
حدثنا أبو سلمة يحيى بن خلف حدثنا عبد الأعلى عن محمد بن إسحق عن عبد الله بن أبي بكر عن عمرة عن عائشة و عن عبد الرحمن بن القاسم عن أبيه عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها
Source:
Ibn Maajah, Sunan, vol. 4, pg. 444, hadeeth # 1944
Grading:
Al-Albaani said this hadeeth is Hasan

-----------------------------

If you guys are going to find unreliable hadith that no shia believes in, then I will quote this hadith about the changing of the Qur'an in the sunni tradition to claim all sunnis believe in Tahreef.

Stop claiming Shias believe in tahreef. Thanks.

Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Farid on February 23, 2015, 11:05:28 AM
Alsalam alaykum wa rahmatullah!

Welcome to the boards, brother. Inshallah your stay here will be a beneficial one.

There are authentic narrations in both Sunni and Shia books that the verse of stoning were in the Qur'an. Both schools suggest that the verse were abrogated. That being said, it does not matter if a goat eats a paper that includes an abrogated verse.

Heck, even if the verse was not abrogated, it is ridiculous to believe that nobody memorized it. =)
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Rationalist on February 23, 2015, 01:11:19 PM


Stop claiming Shias believe in tahreef. Thanks.

Nobody has said that 100% of the 12er Shia population believes it. However, your sect does not call 12ers who believe in it as non-Muslims.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: labelingtheory on February 23, 2015, 01:19:10 PM


Stop claiming Shias believe in tahreef. Thanks.

Nobody has said that 100% of the 12er Shia population believes it. However, your sect does not call 12ers who believe in it as non-Muslims.

Just to make it clear and simple because you have fooled people like Bolani Muslim and others into thinking we do believe in tahreef.

1. Stop claiming that we believe in this terrible practice, you just admitted we don't so you can end it now.
2. If people believe in it, why does it matter so much to you that they are called kaffirs? What is the obsession with Sunni Islam and calling everyone else a kaffir? Islam is not about that. Even Ibn taymiyyah said not to take muslims outside the folds of Islam, that is a grave Sin and you have to be 100% sure before you ever make a statement like that.


What about Misyar, why aren't sunnis who practice it called adulterers? Or why aren't people in ISIS called kaffirs by your scholars? You care so much about kaffirs... how about you worry about yourself?
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: MuslimK on February 23, 2015, 01:41:14 PM
@ labelingtheory,

Brother, nobody said that every Shia layman or scholar believe in the corruption of the Quran but what we say that MANY giants and leaders of your sect believed in the corruption of the Quran. Not only that but narrations about Tahreef are in thousands in your books and Majlisi, I am sure you know, said that "narrations about Tahreef Quran are mutawatir and no less than the narrations about Imamah, so if a Shia wants to reject Tahrif then he has to reject Imamah as well".

The Question is why did many of your classical and other top scholars believed in the corruption of Quran? Some reasons:
- They were influenced by the teachings of Ibn Saba, who was an enemy of Islam.
- They couldn't find Shia beliefs in the Quran so they invented this dangerous belief.
- The other reason was to attack the Sahaba, they accused the Sahaba of every bad thing so they also accused them of corrupting the Quran.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Rationalist on February 23, 2015, 01:41:39 PM

2. If people believe in it, why does it matter so much to you that they are called kaffirs? What is the obsession with Sunni Islam and calling everyone else a kaffir? Islam is not about that. Even Ibn taymiyyah said not to take muslims outside the folds of Islam, that is a grave Sin and you have to be 100% sure before you ever make a statement like that.
Sorry bro when it comes to the Quran there is no exception. If you believe a person is still a Muslim then that's your problem. However, those who believe the Quran is incomplete are no different then those who do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
Quote
What about Misyar, why aren't sunnis who practice it called adulterers? Or why aren't people in ISIS called kaffirs by your scholars? You care so much about kaffirs... how about you worry about yourself?
There are many Sunni scholars against them.
As for kufr did Imam Ali (as) call the Khawarij Kaffir ?
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Husayn on February 23, 2015, 02:09:25 PM


Stop claiming Shias believe in tahreef. Thanks.

Nobody has said that 100% of the 12er Shia population believes it. However, your sect does not call 12ers who believe in it as non-Muslims.

Just to make it clear and simple because you have fooled people like Bolani Muslim and others into thinking we do believe in tahreef.

1. Stop claiming that we believe in this terrible practice, you just admitted we don't so you can end it now.
2. If people believe in it, why does it matter so much to you that they are called kaffirs? What is the obsession with Sunni Islam and calling everyone else a kaffir? Islam is not about that. Even Ibn taymiyyah said not to take muslims outside the folds of Islam, that is a grave Sin and you have to be 100% sure before you ever make a statement like that.


What about Misyar, why aren't sunnis who practice it called adulterers? Or why aren't people in ISIS called kaffirs by your scholars? You care so much about kaffirs... how about you worry about yourself?

I once had a friend ask Ayatollah al-Ansari about whether the Qur'an is changed - and the Ayatollah winked at him and told him "you can't know for sure".

There is no doubt that many high ranking learned ones of the 12vers believe that the Qur'an was changed - they just don't usually spout this to the rabble, because it would harm their sensibilities (unless you are in a Husayniah and the learned is in an especially honest mood).
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Hani on February 23, 2015, 03:55:54 PM
Just to make it clear and simple because you have fooled people like Bolani Muslim and others into thinking we do believe in tahreef.

1. Stop claiming that we believe in this terrible practice, you just admitted we don't so you can end it now.
2. If people believe in it, why does it matter so much to you that they are called kaffirs? What is the obsession with Sunni Islam and calling everyone else a kaffir? Islam is not about that. Even Ibn taymiyyah said not to take muslims outside the folds of Islam, that is a grave Sin and you have to be 100% sure before you ever make a statement like that.


What about Misyar, why aren't sunnis who practice it called adulterers? Or why aren't people in ISIS called kaffirs by your scholars? You care so much about kaffirs... how about you worry about yourself?

For the love of God, check the RULES of Misyar before you liken it to Mut`ah:

-The agreement of both parties
-Two legal witnesses >> unlike Mut`ah.
-Permission of guardian >> unlike a lot of cases on Mut`ah
-The payment by the husband to his wife of Mahr in the amount that is agreed
-The absence of a fixed time period for the contract >> unlike Mut`ah
-She is counted as one of the four wives not as a rented/slave girl >> unlike Mut`ah
-She inherits and receives whatever right any wife would receive >> unlike Mut`ah
-Conditions, Any particular stipulations which the two parties agree to include in the contract and which are in conformity with Muslim marriage law.

More importantly, some Sunni scholars and organizations that have opposed the concept of Nikah Misyar altogether. Unlike Mut`ah which is a part of Shia faith and cannot be opposed.

As for "Isis", most scholars oppose them and encourage fighting them.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Ameen on February 23, 2015, 04:25:36 PM
Brothers the problem here is when we want to paint a bad and ugly picture about any particular religion, communtiy, sect etc then one picks and choses bits and pices and tries to force others to believe that the whole picture is as such. This is exactly what is happening here and Shiaism is the target!
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Bolani Muslim on February 23, 2015, 11:09:31 PM
Labeling Theory when did I say all shias believe in Tahrif? I said your top scholars like Majlisi believed it and showed you proof (even a shia saying he did wrong ijtihad).

Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Rationalist on February 24, 2015, 04:03:04 AM
Brothers the problem here is when we want to paint a bad and ugly picture about any particular religion, communtiy, sect etc then one picks and choses bits and pices and tries to force others to believe that the whole picture is as such. This is exactly what is happening here and Shiaism is the target!
Rafidism is the target not Shiaism. There is a big difference.
In Yemen Sunnis and Zaidi Shia have one mosque, and they pray behind each other.

[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: labelingtheory on February 24, 2015, 08:09:24 AM
@ labelingtheory,

Brother, nobody said that every Shia layman or scholar believe in the corruption of the Quran but what we say that MANY giants and leaders of your sect believed in the corruption of the Quran. Not only that but narrations about Tahreef are in thousands in your books and Majlisi, I am sure you know, said that "narrations about Tahreef Quran are mutawatir and no less than the narrations about Imamah, so if a Shia wants to reject Tahrif then he has to reject Imamah as well".

The Question is why did many of your classical and other top scholars believed in the corruption of Quran? Some reasons:
- They were influenced by the teachings of Ibn Saba, who was an enemy of Islam.
- They couldn't find Shia beliefs in the Quran so they invented this dangerous belief.
- The other reason was to attack the Sahaba, they accused the Sahaba of every bad thing so they also accused them of corrupting the Quran.


Again you are really changing history when you claim that a lot of the major scholars believed in tahrif.
Also the difference between shia hadith and sunni hadith is that we don't claim that our books are completely pure, the only perfect book is the Qur'an. Some scholars compiled hadith books and relied on later scholars to verify these hadith, they compiled all types of hadith.

You criticizing these type of hadith is like me going into weak sunni sources and claiming that they are sahih.

 The few that are seen to be strong hadith, are interpreted that revelation came to the prophet and some of this was tafseer of the quran and it wasnt the verses of quran that was changed.

Again you are changing history with your words, i recommend you read this link about shia/sunni views of tahreef and protection of the Qur'an.

http://www.al-islam.org/quran-its-protection-alteration-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/shia-attitude

sorry ive been really busy I will to respond to others later this week inshallah.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Muhammad Tazin on February 24, 2015, 08:35:20 AM
These are top-notch Shia-Priests!!!

Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: labelingtheory on February 24, 2015, 02:14:20 PM
These are top-notch Shia-Priests!!!



This channel cuts and pastes clips and take them out of context all the time, so I can't trust the video just on that basis.

Also let's just assume that is exactly what this speaker was claiming, just because one shia (who I have never even heard of) says something, doesn't mean it represents all shia.

Want me to start posting videos of sunnis?

[EDIT- video posted is not linked to the topic of thread, stick to topic]

Random people on the internet are not representatives of shias, I can post 100 videos of a crazy sunni scholar for every video that you decide to cut and paste.


Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Hadrami on February 24, 2015, 02:26:43 PM
This channel cuts and pastes clips and take them out of context all the time, so I can't trust the video just on that basis.
Also let's just assume that is exactly what this speaker was claiming, just because one shia (who I have never even heard of) says something, doesn't mean it represents all shia.

See, i told you this labelingtheory is just another ameen (ignorant/clueless or taqiyah freak). Even after his own ayatulah said one of the BIGGEST shia scholar in history believed in tahrif, hes still try to deny it & say its video editing work. It's information age, its not 256H when someone can say someone was born when he doesnt exist mate :D
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: labelingtheory on February 24, 2015, 02:38:41 PM
Labeling Theory when did I say all shias believe in Tahrif? I said your top scholars like Majlisi believed it and showed you proof (even a shia saying he did wrong ijtihad).

Our top scholars do not believe in Tahrif, ill show you more proof. Stop reading from Sunni blogs, that make up lies. I told you a hundred times, go to real shia sources, not youtube links, not blogs, not satelitte scholars.

The definition of a real ulama is someone who dedicates his whole life to learning Islam not just a few years.

Here is your proof on tahreef.
--------------------------------------
Where are you getting this list from? I'll answer this list for you.
 
Sheikh Kulayni:
There isn't a statement from al-Kulayni that says that he believes in tahreef.
Sheikh Ayyashi:
No statement from Ayyashi as well.
Sheikh Mufid:
Didn't beleive in Tahrif and Not to mention his two major students al-Murtada and al-Tusi both never believed in tahreef

Hurr al-`Amili:

This statement shows that Hurr al-`Amili was anti-Tahreef:
 
إنّ من تتبّع الأخبار وتفحّص التواريخ والآثار علم ـ علماً قطعيّاً ـ بأنّ القرآن قد بلغ أعلى درجات التواتر ، وأنّ آلاف الصحابة كانوا يحفطونه ويتلونه ، وأنّه كان على عهد رسول الله عليه وآله وسلّم مجموعاً مؤلّفاً
"If someone follows narrations, and examines history, the result is knowledge - definitive knowledge - that the Qur'an had reached the highest degree of tawaatur, And there were 1000s of companions that protected it and recited it, and that during the time of the Messenger of Allah it was collected and compiled"


These are the biggest Ulama in early shia history.

As for Majlisi...

1- First of All Al-Alma Al-Majlisi, is not claiming that he him self "Believes" In Tahreef of the Quran, he is stating that there are many narrations that have come over time that "lead" to change or missing parts..The word ( يدل) in this context does not mean "Prove" directly that it has been "proven".
 
2- Second of Al-Almama Al-Majilisi Rejects this narrations in "Context" and how they were transmitted. even if the chain is correct at times, take the following example from the narrations of the 17,000 extra verses:
 
" عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحَكَمِ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ الْقُرْآنَ الَّذِي جَاءَ بِهِ جَبْرَئِيلُ ع إِلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص سَبْعَةَ عَشَرَ أَلْفَ آيَةٍ"
 
Then her writes:
 
 
we read in Mir'a'at Al-Oqool, fe Sharh akhbar Al-Rasul (مرآة العقول في شرح أخبار آل الرسول), By Al-Alama Al-Majilisi (مجلسي), volume 12, page 525, after he said:
 
فالخبر صحيح و لا يخفى أن هذا الخبر و كثير من الأخبار الصحيحة صريحة في نقص القرآن و تغييره، و عندي أن الأخبار في هذا الباب متواترة معنى، و طرح جميعها يوجب رفع الاعتماد عن الأخبار رأسا
 
"The khabar (hadeeth) is SaHeeH and it is obvious that this khabar (hadeeth) and other SaHeeH ones like it are clear about the Qur'aan being shortened and changed, and in my opinion, this is mutaawatir in meaning, and discarding these narrations would lead us to rejecting all akhbaar (narrations) in general."....
 
He did not stop there, let us keep reading..
 
 بل ظني أن الأخبار في هذا الباب لا يقصر عن أخبار الإمامة فكيف يثبتونها بالخبر.
 
"But my doubt that Al-akhba'ar in this section, does not shorten from Al-Akhba'ar Al-Imamamiyah, so how can they approve of this by Akh'ba'ar?
 

We continue reading on page 525:


فإن قيل: إنه يوجب رفع الاعتماد على القرآن لأنه إذا ثبت تحريفه ففي كل آية يحتمل ذلك و تجويزهم عليهم السلام على قراءة هذا القرآن و العمل به متواتر معلوم إذ لم ينقل من أحد من الأصحاب أن أحدا من أئمتنا أعطاه قرانا أو علمه قراءة، و هذا ظاهر لمن تتبع الأخبار، و لعمري كيف يجترئون على التكلفات الركيكة في تلك الأخبار مثل ما قيل في هذا الخبر إن الآيات الزائدة عبارة عن الأخبار القدسية أو كانت التجزية بالآيات أكثر و في خبر لم يكن أن الأسماء كانت مكتوبة على الهامش على سبيل التفسير و الله تعالى يعلم و قال السيد حيدر الآملي في تفسيره أكثر القراء ذهبوا إلى أن سور القرآن بأسرها مائة و أربعة عشر سورة و إلى أن آياته ستة آلاف و ستمائة و ست و ستون آية و إلى أن كلماته سبعة و سبعون ألفا و أربعمائة و سبع و ثلاثون كلمة، و إلى أن حروفه ثلاثمائة آلاف و اثنان و عشرون ألفا و ستمائة و سبعون حرفا و إلى أن فتحاته ثلاثة و تسعون ألفا و مائتان و ثلاثة و أربعون فتحة، و إلى أن ضماته أربعون ألفا و ثمان مائة و أربع ضمات و إلى أن كسراته تسع و ثلاثون ألفا و خمسمائة و ستة و ثمانون كسرة، و إلى أن تشديداته تسعة عشر ألفا و مائتان و ثلاثة و خمسون تشديدة، و إلى أن مداته ألف و سبعمائة و أحد و سبعون مده و إلى أن همزاته ثلاث آلاف و مائتان و ثلاث و سبعون همزة
 
 
For if it is the Qeel (قيل / It was said): Its a "must" to lift the trust on the Quran, because if it is proved its distortion, then in every verse it is possible, and permitting (The Imams) peace be upon them on reading the Quran and acting on it is "Mutwa'atir and known, if non copied from the companions (of the Imams) that one of our Imams gave him a Quran or taught him recitations, and this is clear from thos who follow Al-Akhba'ar. And for Amm'r'ee ( لعمري ), how do they have the face (Audacity) on these "weak sayings" in this Akhb'a'ar, just like what is said in this Kha'bar that the verse are extra, example of the holy Akhba'ar or if it was "Al-Tajzee'iyah". Rather the verses, in more than one Kha'bar, it was not the names written on the foot-notes on the sake of Tafs'ir and Allah knows best, and said Al-sayed haidar Al-Amuli ( السيد حيدر الآملي) in his Tafs'eer, the majority of the Reciters made clear that the Sur'ahs of the Quran, with all of them are One hundred and fourteen...."

1- and here its clear the Kha'abar (meaning A report that is "It has been said")  is Weak, even with the chain.
2- He condemns on of the Narrators for reporting it.
3- The Chain is fine, but the reporting is "Weak" because it is a "Qeel": meaning "It has been said"
 
And even if we assumed that the narration is Authentic, the Shikeh Al-Sadooq Replies:
 
 
I quote from Sheikkh Al-Sadooq in Al-Itqad'at (الاعتقادات ), page 93.
 
 وقال الشيخ الصدوق رضوان الله تعالى عليه في الاعتقادات : " بل نقول أنه قد نزل الوحي الذي ليس بقرآن ، ما لو جمع إلى القرآن لكان مبلغه مقدار سبع عشرة ألف آية ، وذلك قول جبرئيل عليه السلام للنبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم : إنّ الله تعالى يقول لك : يا محمد دارِ خلقي ، و مثل قوله : عش ما شئت فإنّك ميت ، وأحبب ما شئت فإنّك مفارقه ، و اعمل ما شئت فإنّك ملاقيه ، وشرف المؤمن صلاته بالليل و عزّه كفّ الأذى عن الناس " ، وقال : " إن القرآن الذي جاء به جبرائيل عليه السلام إلى محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم سبعة عشر ألف آية"
 
"And said Sheikh Al-sadooq May Allah be pleased with him in his beliefs: "We Rather say that it was Al-Wahi (Revelation) that is not the Quran,and if (assumed) that it was collected in the quran it would have exceeded seventeen thousand verses, and that is the saying of Jibr'il to the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him and his family: That Allah almighty says to you: "O Muhammad take care of my creatures." saying: "live what you will, for you are at death, and love what you will  for you are leaving, and work what you will, for you will meet with it, and invite the believer, prayer at night, and lift the hand of "Ath'a" from the people, and said: "The Quran that came with Jibr'il (a.s) to Muhammad (s.a.w.a.s) seventeen thousand verses..."


So the major shia ulama did not believe in tahreef and neither do any present day ones.

Let me ask you something mister bolani, there is a hadith of the second caliph believing in tahreef from a sunni source, do you accept every hadith or just ones that are against shias?

You are 16 years old, and you don't even know how to classify hadith yourself, how could you can you disagree with shia beliefs if you believe the garbage propaganda that is spread through the blogs and youtube links you learn from. LEARN FROM REAL SOURCES, not from strangers on the internet.

Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: labelingtheory on February 24, 2015, 02:40:20 PM
This channel cuts and pastes clips and take them out of context all the time, so I can't trust the video just on that basis.
Also let's just assume that is exactly what this speaker was claiming, just because one shia (who I have never even heard of) says something, doesn't mean it represents all shia.

See, i told you this labelingtheory is just another ameen (ignorant/clueless or taqiyah freak). Even after his own ayatulah said one of the BIGGEST shia scholar in history believed in tahrif, hes still try to deny it & say its video editing work. It's information age, its not 256H when someone can say someone was born when he doesnt exist mate :D

Anyone can sit on a mimbar and speak. You have sunni sheikhs who speak on the pulpit that support ISIS. What does one speaker have to do anything about shiasm?

If you have an issue with shiasm find something from a respected scholar like Sistani. Thank you.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Hadrami on February 24, 2015, 03:08:22 PM
This channel cuts and pastes clips and take them out of context all the time, so I can't trust the video just on that basis.
Also let's just assume that is exactly what this speaker was claiming, just because one shia (who I have never even heard of) says something, doesn't mean it represents all shia.

See, i told you this labelingtheory is just another ameen (ignorant/clueless or taqiyah freak). Even after his own ayatulah said one of the BIGGEST shia scholar in history believed in tahrif, hes still try to deny it & say its video editing work. It's information age, its not 256H when someone can say someone was born when he doesnt exist mate :D

Anyone can sit on a mimbar and speak. You have sunni sheikhs who speak on the pulpit that support ISIS. What does one speaker have to do anything about shiasm?

If you have an issue with shiasm find something from a respected scholar like Sistani. Thank you.

Shia scholars who believe in tahrif is not just "anyone". Ayatulah al haydari clearly said in that clip that al-Majlisi believed that the proofs for tahrif are too many to be ignored, just like imamah, but here you are trying too hard to hide that sad reality. You want to compare Sistani to Majlisi? That's funny. Try harder :D
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: MuslimK on February 24, 2015, 03:16:04 PM
Again you are really changing history when you claim that a lot of the major scholars believed in tahrif.
 

I am just mentioning Shia history about their scholars, not changing anything.


Quote
Also the difference between shia hadith and sunni hadith is that we don't claim that our books are completely pure, the only perfect book is the Qur'an. Some scholars compiled hadith books and relied on later scholars to verify these hadith, they compiled all types of hadith.

So your books are half pure? ;)

Many of your scholars verified the Hadiths, found them authentic and believed in the corruption of Quran. I will quote you some.

Quote
You criticizing these type of hadith is like me going into weak sunni sources and claiming that they are sahih.
I am not criticizing anything. I talking about the belief of your top scholars and narrations that are considered Sahih by your scholars i..e Majlisi etc.

 

Quote
The few that are seen to be strong hadith, are interpreted that revelation came to the prophet and some of this was tafseer of the quran and it wasnt the verses of quran that was changed.

Again you are changing history with your words, i recommend you read this link about shia/sunni views of tahreef and protection of the Qur'an.

http://www.al-islam.org/quran-its-protection-alteration-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/shia-attitude

sorry ive been really busy I will to respond to others later this week inshallah.

I will read it.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: MuslimK on February 24, 2015, 03:45:00 PM

Our top scholars do not believe in Tahrif, ill show you more proof. Stop reading from Sunni blogs, that make up lies. I told you a hundred times, go to real shia sources, not youtube links, not blogs, not satelitte scholars.

The definition of a real ulama is someone who dedicates his whole life to learning Islam not just a few years.

You will learn brother. 



Quote
Here is your proof on tahreef.
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Where are you getting this list from? I'll answer this list for you.
 
Sheikh Kulayni:
There isn't a statement from al-Kulayni that says that he believes in tahreef.
Sheikh Ayyashi:
No statement from Ayyashi as well.
Sheikh Mufid:
Didn't beleive in Tahrif and Not to mention his two major students al-Murtada and al-Tusi both never believed in tahreef

Hurr al-`Amili:


- You forgot Ali bin Ibrahim Qumi? The author of your classical Tafsir. He believed in the corruption of Quran.

- Mufid did believe in the corruption of Quran. See his book al-Masa’il al-Sarawiyah page 78 – the ninth issue (http://twelvershia.net/2014/01/06/response-to-who-believes-the-quran-has-been-a-victim-of-tahreef-part-1/).

Yes, Tusi and Murtada didn't believe in the corruption. First correct thing you mentioned ;)

- Ayyashi did quote many narrations of Tahrif in his Tafsir of Quran. There is a testimony (http://gift2shias.com/2009/11/16/top-scholars-of-shia-believed-in-tahrif/) of a Shia scholar that Ayyashi did believe in corruption of Quran.

- As for Majlisi then his statements about the corruption of Quran too many to mention here. Keep in mind that students of Majlisi also believed in the corruption of Quran like Jazairi.

For more names check this link (http://gift2shias.com/2011/02/11/fihrist-of-shia-scholars-and-their-believe-in-tahrif/).



Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Muhammad Tazin on February 24, 2015, 04:00:19 PM
Qummi in his Tafsir al Qummi - even Emphasized on Tahrif!!  Starting from Muqaddima!!!
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Ameen on February 24, 2015, 05:31:00 PM


Stop claiming Shias believe in tahreef. Thanks.

Nobody has said that 100% of the 12er Shia population believes it. However, your sect does not call 12ers who believe in it as non-Muslims.
[/quote

Brother this is where the problem is. When Tehreef e Quran is mentioned by certain brothers they say that the Shias believe in it. Certain people have stepped forward, even on this forum, and said that one of the reasons why they left Shiaism is because Shias believe in Tehreef e Quran.

Tehreef e Quran is being used against Shias and it is clearly mentioned that all Shias believe in it. Or it is represented as a core belief of the Shias and a very important part of Shiaism.

You or certain people who use Tehreef e Quran as a tool against Shiaism and the Shias need to get their act right. This is not part of Shiaism and the vast majority do not believe in it.

Now you mentioned another thing that we do not call those who believe in Tehreef e Quran Kafir. Brother first of all issuing fatwas of Takfeer is not our responsibility and job. This is what the Khawarij do and use as an excuse to kill people.

It is strange that people what to accuse others of Takfeer and Kufr but when it comes to Yazeed and what he did, they refuse to do that.

 





















Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Ameen on February 24, 2015, 05:35:21 PM
Qummi in his Tafsir al Qummi - even Emphasized on Tahrif!!  Starting from Muqaddima!!!

So what did he exactly say??? Did he say that he believed in Tehreef e Quran or did he mention something as an argument, something that can be or needs to be discussed because of certain narrations???



Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Hani on February 24, 2015, 07:10:10 PM
Introduction of Tafseer al-Qummi as I recall shows he clearly believes in Tahreef. This is illustrated by his narrations in that same book ad in other books.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Ameen on February 24, 2015, 07:16:33 PM
Introduction of Tafseer al-Qummi as I recall shows he clearly believes in Tahreef. This is illustrated by his narrations in that same book ad in other books.

So how would you or what would you define as Tehreef e Quran???

Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Furkan on February 24, 2015, 07:27:11 PM
You are the shia, you know better.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Ameen on February 24, 2015, 07:32:02 PM
You are the shia, you know better.

Then put a stop to the propaganda and discuss on principals, with a positive attitude and in a pleasant manner. But you can't do this and you will continue with your current stance, since it's your only means of survival.



Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Hani on February 24, 2015, 07:33:24 PM
Because on page 5 of volume one where he is explaining the various contents of the Qur'an, he says some parts of it are abrogated and others are abrogating, some parts are explicit and others are vague, some parts of it are general and others are specific... then he says:

ومنه على خلاف ما انزل الله

"And some parts of it oppose what Allah has revealed."

Then he even gives further examples as to what he means on page 10, he says:

واما ما هو كان على خلاف ما انزل الله فهو قوله " كنتم خير امة اخرجت للناس تأمرون بالمعروف وتنهون عن المنكر وتؤمنون بالله " فقال ابوعبدالله عليه السلام لقاري هذه الآية " خير امة " يقتلون امير المؤمنين والحسن والحسين بن علي عليه السلام؟ فقيل له وكيف نزلت يابن رسول الله؟ فقال انما نزلت " كنتم خير ائمة اخرجت للناس

[As for what opposes what Allah revealed, then it is like his saying {You were the best nation brought forth for mankind, you enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil and believe in Allah} Abu `Abdillah (as) said to the one who recited this verse: "Best nation!?" They killed `Ali and Hasan and Husayn (as)!? They said: "Then how was it revealed O son of Rasul-Allah (saw)?" He said: It was revealed as {You were the best Imams brought forth for mankind}]

And he gives other examples of verses he believes were corrupted by the companions to hide the virtues of the Imams.

Is this not clear?
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Furkan on February 24, 2015, 07:37:34 PM
just why can't these shiites accept it that there is an opinion of believing in tahreef within shiism?

I actually wonder how shiites left this opinion of tahreef on a huge scale like this? Did it happen 100 years ago or even earlier?
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Ameen on February 24, 2015, 08:27:04 PM
Brothers firstly Tehreef e Quran has been discussed by both, Shia as well as leading Sunni scholars, in Shia as well as Sunni books.

The author/writer of the book, did they mention and discuss this argument??? Did they represent it as their formal opinion and view??? This depends on the author/writer.

Secondly I always believe in moving the discussion forward so for argumental reasons I will agree with you brother Hani. It is clear but what  has this got to do with the rest of us???

Why is the entire community being labelled and targeted by you over this??? What does the vast majority of the Shia Scholars and the common and average person believe in???

Brother Furkan rather than getting us to admitt why don't you admitt the obvious that certain people use bits and pieces like this to target the entire Shia communtiy.

Tell me, what is propaganda??? This is part of propaganda just like certain non Muslims use bits and pieces to try and paint a bad picture of Islam.















Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Hani on February 24, 2015, 08:54:11 PM
I don't hold the opinion that all Imamis believe in Tahreef. Your issue is with those who think the entire sect believes in Tahreef.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Ameen on February 24, 2015, 09:32:10 PM
I don't hold the opinion that all Imamis believe in Tahreef. Your issue is with those who think the entire sect believes in Tahreef.

My issue isn't with anyone. I don't get personal. What I'm pointing out is the matter of Tehreef e Quran is being put forward by certain members on this forum as it is a core belief of the Shia. This is how this topic is being presented and you along with others are being challenged to make this statement, which you have made now. You could have said this earlier. Or point this out at the begining without being challenged over it.








Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Ameen on February 24, 2015, 09:40:19 PM
This channel cuts and pastes clips and take them out of context all the time, so I can't trust the video just on that basis.
Also let's just assume that is exactly what this speaker was claiming, just because one shia (who I have never even heard of) says something, doesn't mean it represents all shia.

See, i told you this labelingtheory is just another ameen (ignorant/clueless or taqiyah freak). Even after his own ayatulah said one of the BIGGEST shia scholar in history believed in tahrif, hes still try to deny it & say its video editing work. It's information age, its not 256H when someone can say someone was born when he doesnt exist mate :D

Ok, so what's his opinion got to do with the rest of us??? When ever an Ahle Sunnah Scholar is mentioned past or present along with his statement which goes against your ideology or myth, you turn around and say that you don't believe in him and certainly don't follow him. Look, two can play at this game and you very well know that.




Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: sawaaiq on February 24, 2015, 09:57:10 PM
Quote
Look, two can play at this game and you very well know that.

So do you and Labellingtheory believe Abu Bakr and Umar are kuffar?
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Hani on February 24, 2015, 10:17:43 PM
Let's stick to topic everyone.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Furkan on April 19, 2015, 05:08:18 PM
Where is labelingtheory actually?
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: MuslimK on April 19, 2015, 10:07:31 PM
I think he is the guy on facebook who is quoting narrations about abrogation from Sunni books and calling it Tahrif due to his lack of knowledge.
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Furkan on April 20, 2015, 12:21:14 AM
Let's hope another Shia will continue from here on...
Title: Re: Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)
Post by: Shia not Rafidi on May 21, 2019, 01:21:52 PM
i enjoy getting the shia lame excuse being crushed and how at the end they start acting like "hey i don't care what our scholars believed in, i am free of that nonsense"..
also wondering why The Philosophical guy "Iceman" is nowhere to be seen..