TwelverShia.net Forum

Upcoming movie about Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hadrami

Re: Upcoming movie about Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2017, 11:16:56 PM »
And also, please explain the difference of Ali (r.a.) carrying out "nahi an al-munkar" in the case of Siffin war with the event of his non-claimant of his imamah during Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman's (r.anhum) reigns.

While he's at it, i also want him to explain the difference between imam ali & hasan "nahi an al-munkar" in regards to mu'awiya (why one fought & another made peace)

Same reason as the above. Circumstances are different, and when tbe circumstances are different the laws of nahi an al munkar are different. This is proven in both Shi'i and Sunni fiqh.

What Ali ra did make more sense, I cant see how hasan ra giving authority of a muslim ummah to a kafir (according to shia) is a form of "nahi an al-munkar". Please do explain it in detail. I know shia always have a reply to everything no matter how ridiculous the reply is :D
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 11:22:13 PM by Hadrami »

Abu Muhammad

Re: Upcoming movie about Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2017, 02:16:58 AM »
You're sadly changing the topic my friend. The basis of this topic was the assumption (or in my case, belief) that the Prophet had appointed a successor. Not whether he appointed one or not.

Now, you say the duty of Imam Ali (as) - had he indeed been chosen by Allah to lead the Ummah after the Prophet's death - is that he should do nahi an al munkar because his right was snatched off him and the Ummah became deviant, and he just stood there and watched. Therefore, he did not fulfill his obligation.

My reply to this shubha is that nahi an al munkar is dropped according to many Sunnis if it will lead to a bigger evil coming from the sinner.

You said Imam Ali (as) has to experience this first, and I replied that Imam Ali (as) already knows.

As for Prophet Harun (as) - I can say that I have moved on from that argument, as I find that this argument has many shortcomings in this discussions.

What a shallow argument... and yet Al-Hussein insisted on carrying out this "nahi wa munkar" that "led a bigger evil coming from sinners" i.e. brought almost all his family members to destruction...

What a confusing religion...

I find it do simple even a 3 year old can understand it.

1) Imam Ali (as) refrained from calling the people as it would lead to a bigger evil.

2) Imam Al-Husayn (as) did what he did for the greater good for the religion of Allah.

Yeah, broad and generic reasons without any details. The level of understanding for a 3-year old kid...

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Upcoming movie about Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2017, 04:47:53 AM »
I find it do simple even a 3 year old can understand it.

1) Imam Ali (as) refrained from calling the people as it would lead to a bigger evil.
By, bigger evil you mean the Sahaba apostating and starting the idol worship again, as you mention in your earlier posts. The evidence for this claim is the alleged "SPECIAL ILM" of Ali(ra), and it seems that you have inherited some of it, due to which you came know about the excuse of Ali(RA). 

But the claim you made from the "special ilm" you inherited goes against Quran, because we don't find in Quran that people turning away from Islam or people apostating would harm Islam in anyway. On the contrary Allah informs us that if people turn away from Islam or turn back from following some commands of Islam, the Allah says that He will replace such people with better people.

We read:

O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.[5:54].

Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.[47:38]

If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.[9:39]

But if you turn back, then indeed I have delivered to you the message with which I have been sent to you, and my Lord will bring another people in your place, and you cannot do Him any harm; surely my Lord is the Preserver of all things.[11:57].

As for Protection of Islam, then Islam was already destined to be dominant, whether people apostate or not, if they would have apostated then Allah would replace them with better people, yet Islam would remain dominant.

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse. [61:9]

In commentary for this verse, Imam Ahmad recorded from Tamim Ad-Dari that he said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah saying:
«لَيَبْلُغَنَّ هَذَا الْأَمْرُ مَا بَلَغَ اللَّيْلُ وَالنَّهَارُ، وَلَا يَتْرُكُ اللهُ بَيْتَ مَدَرٍ وَلَا وَبَرٍ إِلَّا أَدْخَلَهُ هَذَا الدِّينَ، يُعِزُّ عَزِيزًا وَيُذِلُّ ذَلِيلًا، عِزًّا يُعِزُّ اللهُ بِهِ الْإِسْلَامَ وَذُلًّا يُذِلُّ اللهُ بِهِ الْكُفْر»
(This matter (Islam) will keep spreading as far as the night and day reach, until Allah will not leave a house made of mud or hair, but will make this religion enter it, while bringing might to a mighty person (a Muslim) and humiliation to a disgraced person (who rejects Islam). Might with which Allah elevates Islam (and its people) and disgrace with which Allah humiliates disbelief (and its people).) Tamim Ad-Dari ﴿who was a Christian before Islam﴾ used to say, "I have come to know the meaning of this Hadith in my own people. Those who became Muslims among them acquired goodness, honor and might. Disgrace, humiliation and Jizyah befell those who remained disbelievers. [Tafseer ibn Katheer]

Now the Question to you is that, why didn't Ali(ra) let the evil people who corrupted Islam get replaced with better people, as Allah(swt) promised? Like Haroon(AS), He should have implemented the obligation of Amr bil Maroof and Nahi al Munkar, and if the evil people would have left Islam, Allah would have replaced them with better people.

NOTE: We Sunnis believe that certain people did apostate after Prophet(SAWS), and the Sunni Caliph Abu Bakr(Ra) did believe in the promise Allah made, hence Allah did fulfill his promise.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Upcoming movie about Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2017, 02:55:01 PM »
I find it do simple even a 3 year old can understand it.

1) Imam Ali (as) refrained from calling the people as it would lead to a bigger evil.
By, bigger evil you mean the Sahaba apostating and starting the idol worship again, as you mention in your earlier posts. The evidence for this claim is the alleged "SPECIAL ILM" of Ali(ra), and it seems that you have inherited some of it, due to which you came know about the excuse of Ali(RA). 

But the claim you made from the "special ilm" you inherited goes against Quran, because we don't find in Quran that people turning away from Islam or people apostating would harm Islam in anyway. On the contrary Allah informs us that if people turn away from Islam or turn back from following some commands of Islam, the Allah says that He will replace such people with better people.

We read:

O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.[5:54].

Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.[47:38]

If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.[9:39]

But if you turn back, then indeed I have delivered to you the message with which I have been sent to you, and my Lord will bring another people in your place, and you cannot do Him any harm; surely my Lord is the Preserver of all things.[11:57].

As for Protection of Islam, then Islam was already destined to be dominant, whether people apostate or not, if they would have apostated then Allah would replace them with better people, yet Islam would remain dominant.

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse. [61:9]

In commentary for this verse, Imam Ahmad recorded from Tamim Ad-Dari that he said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah saying:
«لَيَبْلُغَنَّ هَذَا الْأَمْرُ مَا بَلَغَ اللَّيْلُ وَالنَّهَارُ، وَلَا يَتْرُكُ اللهُ بَيْتَ مَدَرٍ وَلَا وَبَرٍ إِلَّا أَدْخَلَهُ هَذَا الدِّينَ، يُعِزُّ عَزِيزًا وَيُذِلُّ ذَلِيلًا، عِزًّا يُعِزُّ اللهُ بِهِ الْإِسْلَامَ وَذُلًّا يُذِلُّ اللهُ بِهِ الْكُفْر»
(This matter (Islam) will keep spreading as far as the night and day reach, until Allah will not leave a house made of mud or hair, but will make this religion enter it, while bringing might to a mighty person (a Muslim) and humiliation to a disgraced person (who rejects Islam). Might with which Allah elevates Islam (and its people) and disgrace with which Allah humiliates disbelief (and its people).) Tamim Ad-Dari ﴿who was a Christian before Islam﴾ used to say, "I have come to know the meaning of this Hadith in my own people. Those who became Muslims among them acquired goodness, honor and might. Disgrace, humiliation and Jizyah befell those who remained disbelievers. [Tafseer ibn Katheer]

Now the Question to you is that, why didn't Ali(ra) let the evil people who corrupted Islam get replaced with better people, as Allah(swt) promised? Like Haroon(AS), He should have implemented the obligation of Amr bil Maroof and Nahi al Munkar, and if the evil people would have left Islam, Allah would have replaced them with better people.

NOTE: We Sunnis believe that certain people did apostate after Prophet(SAWS), and the Sunni Caliph Abu Bakr(Ra) did believe in the promise Allah made, hence Allah did fulfill his promise.

So wait, put yourself in that scenario. There is a group of Muslims that are drinking alcohol, about 40 of them. You want to do nahi an al munkar, but you know if you do, they will all turn apostates. What would you do?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Upcoming movie about Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2017, 10:47:50 AM »
So wait, put yourself in that scenario. There is a group of Muslims that are drinking alcohol, about 40 of them. You want to do nahi an al munkar, but you know if you do, they will all turn apostates. What would you do?

I would certainly do it. I won't hide from them the command of their Lord- Allah(swt).

Allah Most High states in the Qur’an:

-“Verily those who conceal that which We have revealed of clear signs and guidance, after We have made it clear for people in the Book – on them shall be Allah’s curse, and the curse of those who curse. Except those who repent, make amends, and make manifest [the truth]; to them I relent, for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful” [2:159-60]

-“Surely, those who conceal that which Allah has revealed of the Book and take for it a small price – they eat nothing into their bellies but fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they shall have a painful chastisement.” [2:174]

-“And when Allah took a covenant with those who were given the Book: ‘You shall certainly make it known to mankind and shall not hide it.’ But they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it – how vile is that which they gained thereby.” [3:187]

And as for the fear that some people will apostate, then Allah will not hold me answerable for that, they will be answerable for themselves. Alcohol is a bigger thing, we have an example where Prophet Muhammad(saws) didn't care about people apostating because of his Isra and Mira'j miracle. He would have hidden it from them, but during the time when Muslims were very few Prophet(saws) didn't compromise.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 10:53:56 AM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Upcoming movie about Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal
« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2017, 06:34:39 AM »
So wait, put yourself in that scenario. There is a group of Muslims that are drinking alcohol, about 40 of them. You want to do nahi an al munkar, but you know if you do, they will all turn apostates. What would you do?

I would certainly do it. I won't hide from them the command of their Lord- Allah(swt).

Allah Most High states in the Qur’an:

-“Verily those who conceal that which We have revealed of clear signs and guidance, after We have made it clear for people in the Book – on them shall be Allah’s curse, and the curse of those who curse. Except those who repent, make amends, and make manifest [the truth]; to them I relent, for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful” [2:159-60]

-“Surely, those who conceal that which Allah has revealed of the Book and take for it a small price – they eat nothing into their bellies but fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they shall have a painful chastisement.” [2:174]

-“And when Allah took a covenant with those who were given the Book: ‘You shall certainly make it known to mankind and shall not hide it.’ But they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it – how vile is that which they gained thereby.” [3:187]

And as for the fear that some people will apostate, then Allah will not hold me answerable for that, they will be answerable for themselves. Alcohol is a bigger thing, we have an example where Prophet Muhammad(saws) didn't care about people apostating because of his Isra and Mira'j miracle. He would have hidden it from them, but during the time when Muslims were very few Prophet(saws) didn't compromise.

So do you think Ibn Taymiyya's fatwa contradicts the Holy Qur'an?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Upcoming movie about Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal
« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2017, 11:32:31 AM »
So wait, put yourself in that scenario. There is a group of Muslims that are drinking alcohol, about 40 of them. You want to do nahi an al munkar, but you know if you do, they will all turn apostates. What would you do?

I would certainly do it. I won't hide from them the command of their Lord- Allah(swt).

Allah Most High states in the Qur’an:

-“Verily those who conceal that which We have revealed of clear signs and guidance, after We have made it clear for people in the Book – on them shall be Allah’s curse, and the curse of those who curse. Except those who repent, make amends, and make manifest [the truth]; to them I relent, for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful” [2:159-60]

-“Surely, those who conceal that which Allah has revealed of the Book and take for it a small price – they eat nothing into their bellies but fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they shall have a painful chastisement.” [2:174]

-“And when Allah took a covenant with those who were given the Book: ‘You shall certainly make it known to mankind and shall not hide it.’ But they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it – how vile is that which they gained thereby.” [3:187]

And as for the fear that some people will apostate, then Allah will not hold me answerable for that, they will be answerable for themselves. Alcohol is a bigger thing, we have an example where Prophet Muhammad(saws) didn't care about people apostating because of his Isra and Mira'j miracle. He would have hidden it from them, but during the time when Muslims were very few Prophet(saws) didn't compromise.

So do you think Ibn Taymiyya's fatwa contradicts the Holy Qur'an?

I can't be certain on this, because for this case one needs to prove that, Ibn Taymiyyah never tried Tatars from drinking wine. It could be that, he tried at a point of time and it was of no use, based on that experience, he preferred to remain silent. Since, he might have believed that he had already established the hujjah, and now it was more appropriate to remain silent, from the experience he gained about the behaviour of Tatars.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
8 Replies
1658 Views
Last post September 13, 2014, 12:53:01 AM
by Hani
6 Replies
1187 Views
Last post April 18, 2015, 03:02:26 PM
by al-kulayni
16 Replies
2115 Views
Last post September 04, 2015, 03:22:45 PM
by MuslimK
4 Replies
1128 Views
Last post December 10, 2015, 06:56:35 AM
by Hani