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What is Ahmadiyya?

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Ahmad

What is Ahmadiyya?
« on: July 11, 2017, 11:03:48 AM »
The conversation on Ahmadiyya on the forum seems interesting. I've some questions if the Ahmadi bro would like to answer some concerns.

Ahmad

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 11:26:41 AM »
Is there a daleel from Quran about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? There's something I heard about Eclipse from many Qadianis, what is it all about?

ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 12:25:43 PM »
Is there a daleel from Quran about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? There's something I heard about Eclipse from many Qadianis, what is it all about?

I am not an Ahmadi though I come from an Ahmadiyya background. As for this question, I've discussed it at length with Zaid ibn Ali (a user on this forum)

Start reading from reply 38 where Zaid ibn Ali raises the exact same question as you, and my answer beginning reply 39
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 12:29:33 PM by ZulFiqar »
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Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 12:28:36 PM »
As for the Holy Qur'an, the Ahmadiyya quote this passage as concerning the prophecy of lunar and solar eclipse a sign for recognising Ghulam Ahmad

وَخَسَفَ الْقَمَرُ
When the Moon eclipses

وَجُمِعَ الشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ
And the sun and moon are brought together, i.e., solar eclipse

Sura 75:8-9
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Ahmad

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2017, 04:50:48 AM »
Is there a daleel from Quran about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? There's something I heard about Eclipse from many Qadianis, what is it all about?

I am not an Ahmadi though I come from an Ahmadiyya background. As for this question, I've discussed it at length with Zaid ibn Ali (a user on this forum)

Start reading from reply 38 where Zaid ibn Ali raises the exact same question as you, and my answer beginning reply 39

With regards to Hadith, it's always better to go to the source and read it in Arabic. The fact is that the Qadiani sect is so poor in Arabic.

The Hadith of the eclipse that's quoted on the alislam.org also is from Daar Qutni. Apart from the chain of narration is false (which a Qadiani might not believe), guess what? The Hadith actually never says Rasul Allah salAllahu alayhi wasallam said such and such. Read it yourself,

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَعِيدٍ الأَصْطَخْرِىُّ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ نَوْفَلٍ حَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ بْنُ يَعِيشَ حَدَّثَنَا يُونُسُ بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ عَنْ
 عَمْرِو بْنِ شَمِرٍ عَنْ جَابِرٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِىٍّ قَالَ إِنَّ لِمَهْدِينَا آيَتَيْنِ لَمْ تَكُونَا مُنْذُ خَلْقِ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ
تَنْكَسِفُ الْقَمَرُ لأَوَّلِ لَيْلَةٍ مِنْ رَمَضَانَ وَتَنْكَسِفُ الشَّمْسُ فِى النِّصْفِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ تَكُونَا مُنْذُ خَلَقَ اللَّهُ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ


Ahmad

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2017, 04:56:09 AM »
As for the Holy Qur'an, the Ahmadiyya quote this passage as concerning the prophecy of lunar and solar eclipse a sign for recognising Ghulam Ahmad

وَخَسَفَ الْقَمَرُ
When the Moon eclipses

وَجُمِعَ الشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ
And the sun and moon are brought together, i.e., solar eclipse

Sura 75:8-9


As for this, it's no daleel. The very next ayah says "Man will say where's the escape?" The surah is Qayama, Allah is mentioning the scene of the  Day of Judgement. How in the world that says anything about Mirza.

ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 01:19:50 PM »


With regards to Hadith, it's always better to go to the source and read it in Arabic. The fact is that the Qadiani sect is so poor in Arabic.

The Hadith of the eclipse that's quoted on the alislam.org also is from Daar Qutni. Apart from the chain of narration is false (which a Qadiani might not believe), guess what? The Hadith actually never says Rasul Allah salAllahu alayhi wasallam said such and such. Read it yourself,

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَعِيدٍ الأَصْطَخْرِىُّ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ نَوْفَلٍ حَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ بْنُ يَعِيشَ حَدَّثَنَا يُونُسُ بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ عَنْ
 عَمْرِو بْنِ شَمِرٍ عَنْ جَابِرٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِىٍّ قَالَ إِنَّ لِمَهْدِينَا آيَتَيْنِ لَمْ تَكُونَا مُنْذُ خَلْقِ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ
تَنْكَسِفُ الْقَمَرُ لأَوَّلِ لَيْلَةٍ مِنْ رَمَضَانَ وَتَنْكَسِفُ الشَّمْسُ فِى النِّصْفِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ تَكُونَا مُنْذُ خَلَقَ اللَّهُ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ

We already know this. The Hadith is narrated by Imam Muhammad Baqir رضى الله عنه who is a great Imam of Ahl al Bayt and direct descendant of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. However, the fact that the Hadith contains information about the unseen means this tradition must have originated from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. If you had actually taken the time to read my discussion with Zaid ibn Ali on this Hadith you wouldn't be asking these questions which have already been addressed.
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ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 01:21:17 PM »

As for this, it's no daleel. The very next ayah says "Man will say where's the escape?" The surah is Qayama, Allah is mentioning the scene of the  Day of Judgement. How in the world that says anything about Mirza.

It's a Sign of the approach of Qiyamah.
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Ahmad

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 01:34:49 PM »


With regards to Hadith, it's always better to go to the source and read it in Arabic. The fact is that the Qadiani sect is so poor in Arabic.

The Hadith of the eclipse that's quoted on the alislam.org also is from Daar Qutni. Apart from the chain of narration is false (which a Qadiani might not believe), guess what? The Hadith actually never says Rasul Allah salAllahu alayhi wasallam said such and such. Read it yourself,

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَعِيدٍ الأَصْطَخْرِىُّ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ نَوْفَلٍ حَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ بْنُ يَعِيشَ حَدَّثَنَا يُونُسُ بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ عَنْ
 عَمْرِو بْنِ شَمِرٍ عَنْ جَابِرٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِىٍّ قَالَ إِنَّ لِمَهْدِينَا آيَتَيْنِ لَمْ تَكُونَا مُنْذُ خَلْقِ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ
تَنْكَسِفُ الْقَمَرُ لأَوَّلِ لَيْلَةٍ مِنْ رَمَضَانَ وَتَنْكَسِفُ الشَّمْسُ فِى النِّصْفِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ تَكُونَا مُنْذُ خَلَقَ اللَّهُ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ

We already know this. The Hadith is narrated by Imam Muhammad Baqir رضى الله عنه who is a great Imam of Ahl al Bayt and direct descendant of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. However, the fact that the Hadith contains information about the unseen means this tradition must have originated from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. If you had actually taken the time to read my discussion with Zaid ibn Ali on this Hadith you wouldn't be asking these questions which have already been addressed.


You said "It must have originated from the Prophet". Bro are you serious? We don't believe in something that's unclear.

Now the eclipse, did it actually happen? Lets put this hadith to test? If it's word of Prophet peace be upon him, it couldn't be wrong as he says nothing but the word of Allah. So any proof of this if it actually happened.

Hani

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2017, 08:11:36 PM »
Actually the Ahmadiyyah movement is demolished just by the fact that they have to rely on a Hadith. If the Qur'an is not sufficient to prove your essential `Aqidah, the non-Mutawatir Hadith will not constitute sufficient evidence for those who understand.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2017, 07:30:57 AM »
Actually the Ahmadiyyah movement is demolished just by the fact that they have to rely on a Hadith. If the Qur'an is not sufficient to prove your essential `Aqidah, the non-Mutawatir Hadith will not constitute sufficient evidence for those who understand.

The essential Aqida of Ahmadiyya movement is the same as Ahlus sunnati wal Jamaah
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Sheikh

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2017, 05:29:36 AM »
Actually the Ahmadiyyah movement is demolished just by the fact that they have to rely on a Hadith. If the Qur'an is not sufficient to prove your essential `Aqidah, the non-Mutawatir Hadith will not constitute sufficient evidence for those who understand.

The essential Aqida of Ahmadiyya movement is the same as Ahlus sunnati wal Jamaah


Ahlus Sunnah wa'l Jamaat believes that the Prophethood ended with Muhammad (saws) and that the ONLY and LOWEST form of Wahi available to mankind after his coming is true dreams. Ahmadiyya movement claims that Wahi was alive and well in the 1800s.

ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2017, 01:43:38 PM »
Ahlus Sunnah wa'l Jamaat believes that the Prophethood ended with Muhammad (saws) and that the ONLY and LOWEST form of Wahi available to mankind after his coming is true dreams. Ahmadiyya movement claims that Wahi was alive and well in the 1800s.

What about Ilhaam, Tahdeeth, and Kashaf? Are you saying that these forms of divine inspiration have been cut off for the Umma and the only thing that remains is a true dream?
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ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2017, 06:42:08 PM »
Regarding the cessation of Wahi, that is referring to الوحي الجلي Wahi al-Jali or Wahi al Nubuwwah, the type of Wahi that is exclusive to Prophets. The Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaih wasallam) has described this type of Wahi:

أَنَّ الْحَارِثَ بْنَ هِشَامٍ، سَأَلَ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَيْفَ يَأْتِيكَ الْوَحْىُ قَالَ ‏ "‏ كُلُّ ذَاكَ يَأْتِي الْمَلَكُ أَحْيَانًا فِي مِثْلِ صَلْصَلَةِ الْجَرَسِ، فَيَفْصِمُ عَنِّي وَقَدْ وَعَيْتُ مَا قَالَ، وَهْوَ أَشَدُّهُ عَلَىَّ
Al Harith bin Hisham asked the Prophet, "How does the divine inspiration come to you?" He replied, "In all these ways: The Angel sometimes comes to me with a voice which resembles the sound of a ringing bell, and when this state abandons me, I remember what the Angel has said, and this type of Divine Inspiration is the hardest on me

قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ رضى الله عنها وَلَقَدْ رَأَيْتُهُ يَنْزِلُ عَلَيْهِ الْوَحْىُ فِي الْيَوْمِ الشَّدِيدِ الْبَرْدِ، فَيَفْصِمُ عَنْهُ وَإِنَّ جَبِينَهُ لَيَتَفَصَّدُ عَرَقًا‏
Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet (ﷺ) being inspired divinely on a very cold day and noticed the sweat dropping from his forehead

So this form of Wahi that is exclusive to Prophets is very strong and has a very apparent physiological effect on the recipient, causing him to sweat.


عُمَرَ بْنَ الْخَطَّابِ ، يَقُولُ : كَانَ إِذَا نَزَلَ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ الْوَحْيُ نَسْمَعُ عِنْدَ وَجْهِهِ كَدَوِيِّ النَّحْلِ
Umar b. al-Khattab narrates that when the revelation descended upon Rasul Allah ﷺ we could hear a sound near his face like the buzzing of honeybees. (Musnad Ahmad)

But as for الوحي الخفي (the lighter Wahi) which is also Wahi al Wilaaya as the Awliyaa are inspired with this kind of Wahi, that is also known as الهام (Ilhaam), it is the inspiration to the heart, and this form of Wahi has not ceased. It manifests itself as Firaasah, Kashaf, and usually in the form of True Dreams. The Muhaddath is the one on whose tongue the Angels speak:


وَإِنَّهُ لَمْ يَبْعَثْ نَبِيًّا إِلا كَانَ فِي أَمَّتِهِ مُحَدَّثٌ ، وَإِنْ يَكُنْ فِي أُمَّتِي مِنْهُمْ أَحَدٌ فَهُوَ عُمَرُ " . قَالُوا : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، كَيْفَ مُحَدَّثٌ ؟ قَالَ : " تَتَكَلَّمُ الْمَلائِكَةُ عَلَى لِسَانِهِ
"And no Prophet was sent except that there was a Muhaddath from his Ummah, and if they is anyone from my Ummah from among them it is Umar." It was asked: "O Messenger of Allah, how is the Muhaddath?" He said: "The Angels speak upon his tongue." (Mujam al-Awsat of Imam Tabarani)

Another companion of the Prophet, Hudaifa b. al-Yaman, narrates:


عَنْ حُذَيْفَةَ بنِ الْيَمَانٍِ أَنَّهُ أَتَى النَّبيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَقَالَ : بيْنَمَا أَنَا أُصَلِّي إِذْ سَمِعْتُ مُتَكَلِّمًا يَقُولُ : اللَّهُمَّ لَكَ الْحَمْدُ كُلُّهُ ، وَلَكَ الْمُلْكُ كُلُّهُ ، بيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ كُلُّهُ ، إِلَيْكَ يُرْجَعُ الْأَمْرُ كُلُّهُ ، عَلَانِيَتُهُ وَسِرُّهُ ، فَأَهْلٌ أَنْ تُحْمَدَ ، إِنَّكَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ ، اللَّهُمَّ اغْفِرْ لِي جَمِيعَ مَا مَضَى مِنْ ذَنْبي ، وَاعْصِمْنِي فِيمَا بقِيَ مِنْ عُمْرِي ، وَارْزُقْنِي عَمَلًا زَاكِيًا تَرْضَى بهِ عَنِّي ، فَقَالَ النَّبيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " ذَاكَ مَلَكٌ أَتَاكَ يُعَلِّمُكَ تَحْمِيدَ رَبكَ


Hudaifa said that he was praying Salat when he heard someone speaking and mentioned a beautiful Du'a and praise of Allah. The Prophet ﷺ said to him: "That was an Angel that came to you to teach you a Praise of your Lord." (Musnad Ahmad)

The Prophet's companion Hassaan b. Thaabit used to recite inspired poetry against the polytheists, the Prophet ﷺ encouraged him, saying:


قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِحَسَّانَ : " اهْجُهُمْ أَوْ هَاجِهِمْ وَجِبْرِيلُ مَعَكَ
"Gabriel is with you." (Bukhari)

It is also related that when the Prophet ﷺ died, his Companions disputed and differed over the procedure to wash his body. So Allah caused them all to sleep and they heard a mysterious voice instructing them how to wash the body


سَمِعْتُ عَائِشَةَ، تَقُولُ لَمَّا أَرَادُوا غَسْلَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالُوا وَاللَّهِ مَا نَدْرِي أَنُجَرِّدُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِنْ ثِيَابِهِ كَمَا نُجَرِّدُ مَوْتَانَا أَمْ نُغَسِّلُهُ وَعَلَيْهِ ثِيَابُهُ فَلَمَّا اخْتَلَفُوا أَلْقَى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمُ النَّوْمَ حَتَّى مَا مِنْهُمْ رَجُلٌ إِلاَّ وَذَقْنُهُ فِي صَدْرِهِ ثُمَّ كَلَّمَهُمْ مُكَلِّمٌ مِنْ نَاحِيَةِ الْبَيْتِ لاَ يَدْرُونَ مَنْ هُوَ أَنِ اغْسِلُوا النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَعَلَيْهِ ثِيَابُهُ

By Allah, we did not know whether we should take off the clothes of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) as we took off the clothes of our dead, or wash him while his clothes were on him. When they (the people) differed among themselves, Allah cast slumber over them until every one of them had put his chin on his chest. Then a speaker spoke from a side of the house, and they did not know who he was: Wash the Prophet (ﷺ) while his clothes are on him (Abu Dawud)

In Judaism, this mysterious voice is called "Bat Kol":
"With the passing of the last three prophets (Chaggai, Zechariah, Malachi) the ruach hakodesh [Holy Spirit] is said to have departed from Yisrael (Tosefta, Sotah 13:2; Sanhedrin 11a) and subsequent revelations were given by a bat kol, a mysterious heavenly voice."
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ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2017, 07:15:50 PM »
We worship Allah, a Living and Speaking Lord, and this is the difference between Allah, who speaks and communicates with His servant, and the dead and useless idols which cannot speak. In condemning the worshipers of the golden calf, Allah says:

أَلَمْ يَرَوْا أَنَّهُ لَا يُكَلِّمُهُمْ وَلَا يَهْدِيهِمْ سَبِيلًا
Did they not see that it could not speak to them nor guide them a way? (Sura 7:148)

أَفَلَا يَرَوْنَ أَلَّا يَرْجِعُ إِلَيْهِمْ قَوْلًا وَلَا يَمْلِكُ لَهُمْ ضَرًّا وَلَا نَفْعًا
Did they not see that it could not return to them any speech and that it did not possess for them any harm or benefit? (Sura 20:89)


وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ لَا يَسْتَجِيبُونَ لَهُم بِشَيْءٍ

Those who are invoked apart from Him (Allah) cannot respond to them in anything (13:14)

The inference here is that Allah, who is the True and Living God, is not like the deaf, blind and mute idols which are of no benefit and do not communicate with their worshipers. Imam Abdullah b. Hanbal mentions in his Kitab us Sunnah the saying of Harun b. Ma'ruf:


من زعم أن الله عز وجل لا يتكلم فهو يعبد الاصنام
"Whoever claims that Allah Azza wa Jall does not speak worships an idol."




Now it becomes apparent that those misguided Muslims who claim that all forms of revelation and divine communication have ceased forever until Judgment Day are resembling the polytheist idol-worshipers in that they a worshiping a God whom they think does not speak anymore.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 07:17:32 PM by ZulFiqar »
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ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2017, 07:48:13 PM »
Another form of Inspiration that descends upon the Awliyaa of Allah is called Sharh al Sadr or "opening of the heart":

أَلَمْ نَشْرَحْ لَكَ صَدْرَكَ
Have We not opened your heart for you (O my beloved Prophet?)
(Sura 94:1)

And this form of Inspiration mentioned in the Holy Quraan is not exclusive to Prophets, because sayyidina Abi Bakr (RA) also experienced this form of inspiration:


قَالَ عُمَرُ فَوَاللَّهِ مَا هُوَ إِلاَّ أَنْ رَأَيْتُ أَنْ قَدْ شَرَحَ اللَّهُ صَدْرَ أَبِي بَكْرٍ لِلْقِتَالِ فَعَرَفْتُ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ
Umar said: "By Allah, it was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's heart towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right" (Agreed upon)
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Ahmad

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2017, 10:06:48 AM »
Actually the Ahmadiyyah movement is demolished just by the fact that they have to rely on a Hadith. If the Qur'an is not sufficient to prove your essential `Aqidah, the non-Mutawatir Hadith will not constitute sufficient evidence for those who understand.

The essential Aqida of Ahmadiyya movement is the same as Ahlus sunnati wal Jamaah

You didn't answer my question regarding the hadith of Eclipse. Any facts available that we can analyze today and say that yes eclipse happened as mentioned in the hadith and this didn't happen before him ever? Or is it just a bogus believe?

ZulFiqar

Re: What is Ahmadiyya?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2017, 04:33:30 PM »
You didn't answer my question regarding the hadith of Eclipse. Any facts available that we can analyze today and say that yes eclipse happened as mentioned in the hadith and this didn't happen before him ever? Or is it just a bogus believe?

https://www.alislam.org/library/ahmadiyya-history/lunar-solar-eclipses/

https://www.alislam.org/topics/eclipses/response-to-mcnaughton.html

https://www.alislam.org/library/articles/new/TruthAboutEclipses.html

Get back to me when you've done reading at least one of these articles. I don't want you to embarrass yourself.
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