TwelverShia.net Forum
Off Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: taha taha on July 10, 2016, 12:03:17 AM
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Which of the four Madhhabs is most correct?
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/which-of-four-madhhabs-is-most-correct.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/which-of-four-madhhabs-is-most-correct.html)
1- THE HANAFEE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/1-hanafee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/1-hanafee-madh-hab.html)
2- THE MAALIKEE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/2-maalikee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/2-maalikee-madh-hab.html)
3-THE SHAAFI’EE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/3-shaafiee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/3-shaafiee-madh-hab.html)
4- The Hambalee MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/4-hambalee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/4-hambalee-madh-hab.html)
Sayings Of The Imaams Regarding Following The Sunnah And Ignoring Their Views Contradictory To It
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following.html)
Sayings Of The Imaams Regarding Following The Sunnah And Ignoring Their Views Contradictory To It (contd)
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following_6.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following_6.html)
Arabic of the above
أقوال الأئمة في اتِّباعِ السُّنَّةِ وتَركِ أقوالِهم المخالفَةِ لَها
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/blog-post_25.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/blog-post_25.html)
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Sunnis are followers of the Qur'an and the Sunnah, we follow whoever has better evidence.
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I'm inviting a shia I know to the forum.
I wounder if he will join.
I post a link on Islamicboard and they took it down
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Thanks for the links.
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Which of the four Madhhabs is most correct?
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/which-of-four-madhhabs-is-most-correct.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/which-of-four-madhhabs-is-most-correct.html)
1- THE HANAFEE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/1-hanafee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/1-hanafee-madh-hab.html)
2- THE MAALIKEE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/2-maalikee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/2-maalikee-madh-hab.html)
3-THE SHAAFI’EE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/3-shaafiee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/3-shaafiee-madh-hab.html)
4- The Hambalee MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/4-hambalee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/4-hambalee-madh-hab.html)
Sayings Of The Imaams Regarding Following The Sunnah And Ignoring Their Views Contradictory To It
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following.html)
Sayings Of The Imaams Regarding Following The Sunnah And Ignoring Their Views Contradictory To It (contd)
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following_6.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following_6.html)
Arabic of the above
أقوال الأئمة في اتِّباعِ السُّنَّةِ وتَركِ أقوالِهم المخالفَةِ لَها
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/blog-post_25.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/blog-post_25.html)
Are they all off-shoots of Jafaria fiqh since they were students of Ima Jafar Al-Sadiq? The 4 sects came after Jafaria sect and didnt someone just post that it is wrong to make sects in Islam (a differetn thread on this forum). You might want to get on the same page first.
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The reality behind the “Ja’fari” Madhhab
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/the-reality-behind-the-jafari-madhhab/
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The reality behind the “Ja’fari” Madhhab
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/the-reality-behind-the-jafari-madhhab/
Oh, a blogger wrote something on a blog. Must be true
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The reality behind the “Ja’fari” Madhhab
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/the-reality-behind-the-jafari-madhhab/
Oh, a blogger wrote something on a blog. Must be true
Truth is hard to swallow.
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Are they all off-shoots of Jafaria fiqh since they were students of Ima Jafar Al-Sadiq? The 4 sects came after Jafaria sect and didnt someone just post that it is wrong to make sects in Islam (a differetn thread on this forum). You might want to get on the same page first.
Ja'far as-Sadiq was a teacher of three of them, however why don't I flip the question. How can Ja'far as-Sadiq have taught them if their beliefs have almost no resemblance to that of the Shi'ah?
secondly saying the madhahib are sects is like saying that following sistani means your part of a different sect to someone who follows Wahid Khorasani
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Which of the four Madhhabs is most correct?
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/which-of-four-madhhabs-is-most-correct.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/which-of-four-madhhabs-is-most-correct.html)
1- THE HANAFEE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/1-hanafee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/1-hanafee-madh-hab.html)
2- THE MAALIKEE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/2-maalikee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/2-maalikee-madh-hab.html)
3-THE SHAAFI’EE MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/3-shaafiee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/3-shaafiee-madh-hab.html)
4- The Hambalee MADH-HAB
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/4-hambalee-madh-hab.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/4-hambalee-madh-hab.html)
Sayings Of The Imaams Regarding Following The Sunnah And Ignoring Their Views Contradictory To It
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following.html)
Sayings Of The Imaams Regarding Following The Sunnah And Ignoring Their Views Contradictory To It (contd)
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following_6.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/sayings-of-imaams-regarding-following_6.html)
Arabic of the above
أقوال الأئمة في اتِّباعِ السُّنَّةِ وتَركِ أقوالِهم المخالفَةِ لَها
http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/blog-post_25.html (http://carryonummah.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/blog-post_25.html)
Are they all off-shoots of Jafaria fiqh since they were students of Ima Jafar Al-Sadiq? The 4 sects came after Jafaria sect and didnt someone just post that it is wrong to make sects in Islam (a differetn thread on this forum). You might want to get on the same page first.
Do you think the great Ulama' of the past just studied under one scholar?
Imam Abu Hanifah had thousands of shuyukh besides Imam Jaafar As-Sadiq. In fact, scholar that influenced him the most was Hammad ibn Abi Sulaiman (with whom he studied until his teacher died) and not Imam Jaafar.
So, what offshoot are you talking about?
Same goes to Imam Malik ibn Anas. He had hundreds of other Shuyukh besides Imam Jaafar. Among others; Nafi’ ibn Abi Nu’aim, Nafi’ al Muqbiri, Na’imul Majmar, Az-Zuhri, Amir ibn Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Ibnul Munkadir, Abdullah bin Dinar, etc.
So again, what offshoot are you talking about?
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Do you think the great Ulama' of the past just studied under one scholar?
Imam Abu Hanifah had thousands of shuyukh besides Imam Jaafar As-Sadiq. In fact, scholar that influenced him the most was Hammad ibn Abi Sulaiman (with whom he studied until his teacher died) and not Imam Jaafar.
So, what offshoot are you talking about?
Same goes to Imam Malik ibn Anas. He had hundreds of other Shuyukh besides Imam Jaafar. Among others; Nafi’ ibn Abi Nu’aim, Nafi’ al Muqbiri, Na’imul Majmar, Az-Zuhri, Amir ibn Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Ibnul Munkadir, Abdullah bin Dinar, etc.
So again, what offshoot are you talking about?
You need to do a little more research before cutting'n'pasting a brief bio on Abu Hanifa. He spent 2 years under Jafar Al-Sadiq and apparently called them the most valuable years.
So this applies to Abu Hanifa and the other 3 imams. Why follow them? If they learned from other scholars, does that mean those scholars were more learned so they should be followed? If Abu Hanifa + 3 learned more than them, then how come no one has ever learned more than Abu Hanifa + 3 to take over so to speak?
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You need to do a little more research before cutting'n'pasting a brief bio on Abu Hanifa. He spent 2 years under Jafar Al-Sadiq and apparently called them the most valuable years.
So this applies to Abu Hanifa and the other 3 imams. Why follow them? If they learned from other scholars, does that mean those scholars were more learned so they should be followed? If Abu Hanifa + 3 learned more than them, then how come no one has ever learned more than Abu Hanifa + 3 to take over so to speak?
Abu Hanifa spending 2 years under Jafar As-Sadiq where did we get this information from, could we get a reference?
The teachers of the Imams did not leave behind books or their books of methodology, so they can't be followed even if we wanted to - therefore there are such things as extinct madhabs (the Zahiri school for example, whose chief proponent was Ibn Hazm from Andulusia). We can only follow their students in what they retained and what they recorded. Question - who recorded the methodology of fiqh and rulings from Jafar As-Sadiq for posterity?
Thanks.
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Abu Hanifa spending 2 years under Jafar As-Sadiq where did we get this information from, could we get a reference?
http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/students-of-imam-jafar/proving-teacher-student-relationship.html
The teachers of the Imams did not leave behind books or their books of methodology, so they can't be followed even if we wanted to - therefore there are such things as extinct madhabs (the Zahiri school for example, whose chief proponent was Ibn Hazm from Andulusia). We can only follow their students in what they retained and what they recorded. Question - who recorded the methodology of fiqh and rulings from Jafar As-Sadiq for posterity?
Thanks.
Primary sources:
Kitab al-Kafi - Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni al-Razi
Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih - Muhammad ibn Babawayh
Tahdhib al-Ahkam - Shaykh Muhammad Tusi
Al-Istibsar - Shaykh Muhammad Tusi
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Abu Hanifa spending 2 years under Jafar As-Sadiq where did we get this information from, could we get a reference?
http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/students-of-imam-jafar/proving-teacher-student-relationship.html
Thanks for the prompt response. Abu Hanifa was based primarily in Iraq as are his teachers - so what knowledge did he gain from As-Sadiq? Abu Hanifa couldn't have been much of a student of As-Sadiq as he did not transmit much in way of knowledge from him, do we have any rulings or any traditions from Abu Hanifa from As-Sadiq?
The teachers of the Imams did not leave behind books or their books of methodology, so they can't be followed even if we wanted to - therefore there are such things as extinct madhabs (the Zahiri school for example, whose chief proponent was Ibn Hazm from Andulusia). We can only follow their students in what they retained and what they recorded. Question - who recorded the methodology of fiqh and rulings from Jafar As-Sadiq for posterity?
Thanks.
Primary sources:
Kitab al-Kafi - Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni al-Razi
Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih - Muhammad ibn Babawayh
Tahdhib al-Ahkam - Shaykh Muhammad Tusi
Al-Istibsar - Shaykh Muhammad Tusi
None of these people met As-Sadiq, they didn't sit in his circles, so how do we verify that what was recorded was accurate and correct? What methodology do we use?
Thanks.
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You need to do a little more research before cutting'n'pasting a brief bio on Abu Hanifa. He spent 2 years under Jafar Al-Sadiq and apparently called them the most valuable years.
You need to get your facts straight.
In the year 132 the Abbasids came to power, having ousted the Umayyads. Abu Hanifah was then 52 years of age. The Abbasid khalifah Abu Ja’far al-Mansur wanted Abu Hanifah as his chief justice, which post he refused. In order to escape the vengeance of the khalifah, Abu Hanifah betook himself to the Hijaz where he spent the next 2 years. It is in terms of this sojourn in the Hijaz that he is reported to have said, “Were it not for the 2 years, Nu’man (i.e. Abu Hanifah) would have been destroyed”. Creative Shi’i imaginations would have us believe that what he actually meant thereby was that it was during this period that he gained his knowledge at the feet of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq. The absurdity of this can be seen from the fact that by that time he was already so famous as a man of learning, that he was sought by the khalifah as the chief justice. Apart from that, he was, as already shown, over 50 years of age.
http://www.ilmgate.org/regarding-imam-abu-hanifah-studying-under-imam-jafar/
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You need to get your facts straight.
In the year 132 the Abbasids came to power, having ousted the Umayyads. Abu Hanifah was then 52 years of age. The Abbasid khalifah Abu Ja’far al-Mansur wanted Abu Hanifah as his chief justice, which post he refused. In order to escape the vengeance of the khalifah, Abu Hanifah betook himself to the Hijaz where he spent the next 2 years. It is in terms of this sojourn in the Hijaz that he is reported to have said, “Were it not for the 2 years, Nu’man (i.e. Abu Hanifah) would have been destroyed”. Creative Shi’i imaginations would have us believe that what he actually meant thereby was that it was during this period that he gained his knowledge at the feet of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq. The absurdity of this can be seen from the fact that by that time he was already so famous as a man of learning, that he was sought by the khalifah as the chief justice. Apart from that, he was, as already shown, over 50 years of age.
http://www.ilmgate.org/regarding-imam-abu-hanifah-studying-under-imam-jafar/
So you are saying 50+ year old men dont need to study and also that Abu Hanifa was more learned than Jafar Al-Sadiq?
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You need to get your facts straight.
In the year 132 the Abbasids came to power, having ousted the Umayyads. Abu Hanifah was then 52 years of age. The Abbasid khalifah Abu Ja’far al-Mansur wanted Abu Hanifah as his chief justice, which post he refused. In order to escape the vengeance of the khalifah, Abu Hanifah betook himself to the Hijaz where he spent the next 2 years. It is in terms of this sojourn in the Hijaz that he is reported to have said, “Were it not for the 2 years, Nu’man (i.e. Abu Hanifah) would have been destroyed”. Creative Shi’i imaginations would have us believe that what he actually meant thereby was that it was during this period that he gained his knowledge at the feet of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq. The absurdity of this can be seen from the fact that by that time he was already so famous as a man of learning, that he was sought by the khalifah as the chief justice. Apart from that, he was, as already shown, over 50 years of age.
http://www.ilmgate.org/regarding-imam-abu-hanifah-studying-under-imam-jafar/
So you are saying 50+ year old men dont need to study and also that Abu Hanifa was more learned than Jafar Al-Sadiq?
Have you understood the correct origin of the saying about two years? I hope you will correct yourself and stop spreading the misconceptions.
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You need to do a little more research before cutting'n'pasting a brief bio on Abu Hanifa. He spent 2 years under Jafar Al-Sadiq and apparently called them the most valuable years.
You need to get your facts straight.
In the year 132 the Abbasids came to power, having ousted the Umayyads. Abu Hanifah was then 52 years of age. The Abbasid khalifah Abu Ja’far al-Mansur wanted Abu Hanifah as his chief justice, which post he refused. In order to escape the vengeance of the khalifah, Abu Hanifah betook himself to the Hijaz where he spent the next 2 years. It is in terms of this sojourn in the Hijaz that he is reported to have said, “Were it not for the 2 years, Nu’man (i.e. Abu Hanifah) would have been destroyed”. Creative Shi’i imaginations would have us believe that what he actually meant thereby was that it was during this period that he gained his knowledge at the feet of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq. The absurdity of this can be seen from the fact that by that time he was already so famous as a man of learning, that he was sought by the khalifah as the chief justice. Apart from that, he was, as already shown, over 50 years of age.
http://www.ilmgate.org/regarding-imam-abu-hanifah-studying-under-imam-jafar/
Hahaha... Love it. Someone is asking somebody to do a little more research before cutting & pasting while he himself is the one in need of that little reasearch before cutting & pasting.
If you do another "little reaseach" before pasting your "creative" imagination about the learning of Imam Abu Hanifa with Imam Jaafar, he spent 18 years with Imam Hammad in Kufah since he was 22 years old and took over his Sheikh to teach in Kufah after he died. That is why it was said that Hammad was the one influenced him the most.
So again, what offshoot of Jaafari Madzhab are you talking about?
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Hahaha... Love it. Someone is asking somebody to do a little more research before cutting & pasting while he himself is the one in need of that little reasearch before cutting & pasting.
If you do another "little reaseach" before pasting your "creative" imagination about the learning of Imam Abu Hanifa with Imam Jaafar, he spent 18 years with Imam Hammad in Kufah since he was 22 years old and took over his Sheikh to teach in Kufah after he died. That is why it was said that Hammad was the one influenced him the most.
So again, what offshoot of Jaafari Madzhab are you talking about?
You must have missed:
This is an incorrect assertion because Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as)’s student. That is why Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqlani, Ibn Emmad Hanbali, Ibn Hajar Makki, Allamah Shiblinji, researcher Abu Zohra and many others clarified that Imam Abu Hanifa was the student of Imam Jafar Sadiq. Furthermore, Allamah Shibli Numani whilst refuting Ibn Tamiyah’s claim stated:
Ibn Tamiyah’s statement that Imam Abu Hanifa was not a student of Imam Jafar Sadiq is incorrect because although Abu Hanifa was a Mujtahid but what comparison he could have with the knowledge and merits of Imam Jafar Sadiq since Hadith, jurisprudence in fact, all kinds of religious knowledge have emerged from the family of Holy Prophet’ (Sirat Numan, page 60). This not only proves that Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as)’s student but also evidences that there is no alternate when it comes to the knowledge and merits of the pure Ahlulbayt, no matter if one is even a Mujtahid and a learned man
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Imam Abu Hanifa was issuing Fatwas and had a following, even before he met Imam Jafar. This fact nullifies all the claims of Shias.
Infact the sense in which you say Imam Abu Hanifa was student of Imam Jafar in that sense, the teachers of Imam Jafar and Imam Baqir, Imam Zain ul Abidin, etc were some major Tabain. So your Imamss were students of Tabain as well.
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This is an incorrect assertion because Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as)’s student. That is why Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqlani, Ibn Emmad Hanbali, Ibn Hajar Makki, Allamah Shiblinji, researcher Abu Zohra and many others clarified that Imam Abu Hanifa was the student of Imam Jafar Sadiq. Furthermore, Allamah Shibli Numani whilst refuting Ibn Tamiyah’s claim stated:
Ibn Tamiyah’s statement that Imam Abu Hanifa was not a student of Imam Jafar Sadiq is incorrect because although Abu Hanifa was a Mujtahid but what comparison he could have with the knowledge and merits of Imam Jafar Sadiq since Hadith, jurisprudence in fact, all kinds of religious knowledge have emerged from the family of Holy Prophet’ (Sirat Numan, page 60). This not only proves that Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as)’s student but also evidences that there is no alternate when it comes to the knowledge and merits of the pure Ahlulbayt, no matter if one is even a Mujtahid and a learned man
What does it prove if Imam Abu Hanifa (rh) studied under Imam Jafar Sadiq (rh)? NOTHING that would support the 12er Shia view.
As you believe the Imam e Hidayat was in taqiyyah mode constantly, Imam Jafar Sadiq (rh) would be responsible for the creation of the Hanafi School. It also shows that the view of everyone being a closet nasibi (except the very few loyal Shias) is false, as Imam Abu Hanifa would have to go out of his way to learn form him and his methodology.
I'm super tired when I wrote this, please don't judge for any mistakes.
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Hahaha... Love it. Someone is asking somebody to do a little more research before cutting & pasting while he himself is the one in need of that little reasearch before cutting & pasting.
If you do another "little reaseach" before pasting your "creative" imagination about the learning of Imam Abu Hanifa with Imam Jaafar, he spent 18 years with Imam Hammad in Kufah since he was 22 years old and took over his Sheikh to teach in Kufah after he died. That is why it was said that Hammad was the one influenced him the most.
So again, what offshoot of Jaafari Madzhab are you talking about?
You must have missed:
This is an incorrect assertion because Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as)’s student. That is why Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqlani, Ibn Emmad Hanbali, Ibn Hajar Makki, Allamah Shiblinji, researcher Abu Zohra and many others clarified that Imam Abu Hanifa was the student of Imam Jafar Sadiq. Furthermore, Allamah Shibli Numani whilst refuting Ibn Tamiyah’s claim stated:
Ibn Tamiyah’s statement that Imam Abu Hanifa was not a student of Imam Jafar Sadiq is incorrect because although Abu Hanifa was a Mujtahid but what comparison he could have with the knowledge and merits of Imam Jafar Sadiq since Hadith, jurisprudence in fact, all kinds of religious knowledge have emerged from the family of Holy Prophet’ (Sirat Numan, page 60). This not only proves that Abu Hanifa was Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as)’s student but also evidences that there is no alternate when it comes to the knowledge and merits of the pure Ahlulbayt, no matter if one is even a Mujtahid and a learned man
You got me wrong. When I said ""creative" imagination about the learning of Imam Abu Hanifa with Imam Jaafar", I didn't mean he was not a student Imam Jaafar. In fact, if you scroll and read my 1st post, I did say "Imam Abu Hanifah had thousands of shuyukh BESIDES IMAM JAAFAR AS-SADIQ". He is indeed a sheikh of Imam Abu Hanifa.
What I mean is that how you Shia have such "creative" imagination that 2-year learning stint with Imam Jaafar after (as what has been mentioned by Bro Noor-us-Sunnah):
1. He was 50+ years old and already has an established credential as a great faqih;
2. Having issuing many2 fatwas prior meeting the Imam;
3. Having hundreds/thousands of students who propogated Abu Hanifa's methodology;
constituted the whole Hanafi madzhab is an offshoot of Jaafari madzhab.
That is what I see you failed to answer and I expect that you will fail to answer that forever. Instead, you were focusing on stressing that Imam Hanifa was a student of Imam Jaafar of which if you properly read my 1st post, you wouldn't waste 10 minutes or so of your life typing that response.
So again I'm asking you, what offshoot of Jaafari Madzhab are you talking about?
Oh, don't forget to put into perspective his most influential sheikh, Imam Hammad ibn Abi Sulaiman, with whom he studied for 18 years since the age of 22 when you answer that question.
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Infact the sense in which you say Imam Abu Hanifa was student of Imam Jafar in that sense, the teachers of Imam Jafar and Imam Baqir, Imam Zain ul Abidin, etc were some major Tabain. So your Imamss were students of Tabain as well.
sorry to burst your bubble but each Imam learned from his respective father.
What does it prove if Imam Abu Hanifa (rh) studied under Imam Jafar Sadiq (rh)? NOTHING that would support the 12er Shia view.
It simply proves that Abu Hanifa learned from Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq so he was inlfuenced by him.
As you believe the Imam e Hidayat was in taqiyyah mode constantly, Imam Jafar Sadiq (rh) would be responsible for the creation of the Hanafi School. It also shows that the view of everyone being a closet nasibi (except the very few loyal Shias) is false, as Imam Abu Hanifa would have to go out of his way to learn form him and his methodology.
I'm super tired when I wrote this, please don't judge for any mistakes.
Who believes the Imams were in taqiyyah? Brother - please read up on the history before making these childish assertions.
You got me wrong. When I said ""creative" imagination about the learning of Imam Abu Hanifa with Imam Jaafar", I didn't mean he was not a student Imam Jaafar. In fact, if you scroll and read my 1st post, I did say "Imam Abu Hanifah had thousands of shuyukh BESIDES IMAM JAAFAR AS-SADIQ". He is indeed a sheikh of Imam Abu Hanifa.
What I mean is that how you Shia have such "creative" imagination that 2-year learning stint with Imam Jaafar after (as what has been mentioned by Bro Noor-us-Sunnah):
1. He was 50+ years old and already has an established credential as a great faqih;
2. Having issuing many2 fatwas prior meeting the Imam;
3. Having hundreds/thousands of students who propogated Abu Hanifa's methodology;
constituted the whole Hanafi madzhab is an offshoot of Jaafari madzhab.
That is what I see you failed to answer and I expect that you will fail to answer that forever. Instead, you were focusing on stressing that Imam Hanifa was a student of Imam Jaafar of which if you properly read my 1st post, you wouldn't waste 10 minutes or so of your life typing that response.
So again I'm asking you, what offshoot of Jaafari Madzhab are you talking about?
Oh, don't forget to put into perspective his most influential sheikh, Imam Hammad ibn Abi Sulaiman, with whom he studied for 18 years since the age of 22 when you answer that question.
So you are saying the quote "if I hadn’t spent two years of his life with Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as), he would have been dead’" by Abu Hanifa is wrong. Is that the dispute since we are in agreement that he studied under Jafar Al-Sadiq?
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You got me wrong. When I said ""creative" imagination about the learning of Imam Abu Hanifa with Imam Jaafar", I didn't mean he was not a student Imam Jaafar. In fact, if you scroll and read my 1st post, I did say "Imam Abu Hanifah had thousands of shuyukh BESIDES IMAM JAAFAR AS-SADIQ". He is indeed a sheikh of Imam Abu Hanifa.
What I mean is that how you Shia have such "creative" imagination that 2-year learning stint with Imam Jaafar after (as what has been mentioned by Bro Noor-us-Sunnah):
1. He was 50+ years old and already has an established credential as a great faqih;
2. Having issuing many2 fatwas prior meeting the Imam;
3. Having hundreds/thousands of students who propogated Abu Hanifa's methodology;
constituted the whole Hanafi madzhab is an offshoot of Jaafari madzhab.
That is what I see you failed to answer and I expect that you will fail to answer that forever. Instead, you were focusing on stressing that Imam Hanifa was a student of Imam Jaafar of which if you properly read my 1st post, you wouldn't waste 10 minutes or so of your life typing that response.
So again I'm asking you, what offshoot of Jaafari Madzhab are you talking about?
Oh, don't forget to put into perspective his most influential sheikh, Imam Hammad ibn Abi Sulaiman, with whom he studied for 18 years since the age of 22 when you answer that question.
So you are saying the quote "if I hadn’t spent two years of his life with Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as), he would have been dead’" by Abu Hanifa is wrong. Is that the dispute since we are in agreement that he studied under Jafar Al-Sadiq?
My dear Brother, I was responding to your statement saying that Sunnis school of taughts are offshots of Jaafari Madzhab. That's all.
Ok then, I'll make it simpler for you to understand.
This is the dispute. Please prove to me that Sunnis school of taught are offshoots of Jaafari Madzhab since you said that they are.
But please read all the responses above before you start typing anything.
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So you are saying the quote "if I hadn’t spent two years of his life with Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (as), he would have been dead’" by Abu Hanifa is wrong. Is that the dispute since we are in agreement that he studied under Jafar Al-Sadiq?
Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, Imam Baqir, Imam Jafar (may Allah be pleased with them) and all other Imams of Hadith and Fiqh had studied under many teachers. They benefited from everyone, who was knowledgeable.
The statement of Abu Hanifa about 2 years is may be about zaid bin Ali Zaynul Abidin a.s, uncle of Imam Jafar a.s. Whom he praised and supported alot in his rising against hisham bin abdul malik. If you read biography of Imam Zaid bin Ali you will get a more clear picture. Abu Hanifa was more in touch with Zaid bin ALi than Imam Jafar a.s
Here are some testimonies about Zaid Bin Ali a.s
*Imam Abu Hanifah al-Nu‘man said: I have not seen anyone equal to Imam Zayd, no one more versed and steeped in knowledge than he. The introduction to Musnad al-Imam Zayd, p. 7, Khutat al-Maqrizi, Vol II, p. 437.
*Abu Hanifah also said: In his generation I have seen no one better equipped for fiqh, no one more knowledgeable and more sharp and eloquent. He [Zayd] was second to none. Nur al-Absar, by Al-Shablanji, p. 215; also in Al-Khutat, by Al-Maqrizi, Vol. II, p 436.
*Imam Muhammad al-Baqer (AS) who said: Zayd has been endowed with privileged divine knowledge; ask him as he knows what we do not.
*Al-Baqer said: Zayd is the language that I speak. He also said: No one of us was born to resemble ‘Ali ibn Abi Taleb more than him [Zayd].
*Ja‘far al-Sadeq once said to one of his fellows: I do not think you will see any of us the likes of him [Zayd] until the end of time.
*Imam Muhammad ibn Abdullah al-Nafs al-Zakiyah said: By Allah! Zayd did renew the discontinued codes and edicts of prophets; he adjusted what had gone religiously off-track. We cannot but benefit from Zayd’s enlightenment. Zayd is the Imam of [all] Imams.
sorry to burst your bubble but each Imam learned from his respective father.
Its a myth/assumption that Imams from Ahlebait only got knowledge from their fathers. Not only they got knowledge from others but also prayed behind others.
Also Ahlebait is not limited to 12 Imams from progeny of Imam Hussain a.s only, there were many other great Imams/Scholars from Ahlebait as well, Like Zaid bin Ali and several from his progeny and from progeny of Imam Hassan a.s etc. And out of 12 Imams most of the knowledge came from 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th Imam only. While very little knowledge came from others.
One example: Imam Baqir a.s and Imam Jafar a.s learned from Jabir Bin Abdullah Ansari r.a.
This is a long narration from sunan abu dawud #1905. http://sunnah.com/abudawud/11/185
Ja’far bin Muhammad reported on the authority of his father “We entered upon Jabir bin ‘Abd Allaah. When we reached him, he asked about the people (who had come to visit him). When my turn came I said “I am Muhammad bin Ali bin Hussain. He patted my head with his hand and undid my upper then lower buttons. He then placed his hand between my nipples and in those days I was a young boy.” He then said “welcome to you my nephew, ask what you like. I questioned him he was blind. The time of prayer came and he stood wrapped in a mantle. Whenever he placed it on his shoulders its ends fell due to its shortness. He led us in prayer while his mantle was placed on a rack by his side. I said “tell me about the Hajj of the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ).
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What does it prove if Imam Abu Hanifa (rh) studied under Imam Jafar Sadiq (rh)? NOTHING that would support the 12er Shia view.
It simply proves that Abu Hanifa learned from Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq so he was inlfuenced by him.
That's great, 'such a nasibi.'
As you believe the Imam e Hidayat was in taqiyyah mode constantly, Imam Jafar Sadiq (rh) would be responsible for the creation of the Hanafi School. It also shows that the view of everyone being a closet nasibi (except the very few loyal Shias) is false, as Imam Abu Hanifa would have to go out of his way to learn form him and his methodology.
I'm super tired when I wrote this, please don't judge for any mistakes.
Who believes the Imams were in taqiyyah? Brother - please read up on the history before making these childish assertions.
Read any volume of 'Hayaat al-Quloob' and simply 'cntrl+f' taqiyyah (also check my history, I've been busy and haven't finished reading).
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2013/06/19/why-islamic-teachings-should-never-be-taken-from-shia-sources/
BTW, I'm mostly a Shaafi as that is the madhab of the local Sheikh, but he has MANY Hanafi views which I follow. I follow him as I'm a layman.
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Read any volume of 'Hayaat al-Quloob' and simply 'cntrl+f' taqiyyah (also check my history, I've been busy and haven't finished reading).
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2013/06/19/why-islamic-teachings-should-never-be-taken-from-shia-sources/
There is a problem in the assumption of the writer. The Imams were not under taqiyyah but the advice they gave was for the safety of their followers.
For themselves, the rulers knew who the Imam of the time was so as such what were they hiding from? And all of them were killed by the rulers for being the Imam so clearly there were not under taqiyyah themselves.
BTW, I'm mostly a Shaafi as that is the madhab of the local Sheikh, but he has MANY Hanafi views which I follow. I follow him as I'm a layman.
Imam Shafa'i was a great scholar no doubt.