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Off Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Soccer on December 28, 2021, 03:21:40 PM

Title: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on December 28, 2021, 03:21:40 PM
When I think of the Master and King
You sent as a channel of revelation
I am not a drop of an ocean to him
No Mohammad is must greater
Yet him to you is less then that
He is nothing when you are remembered
Yet he and his family are the only means to you
He who has not disobeyed in you in anything
And has totally being praised by you at all stations
The greatest creature
And his family who are his equals
I feel ashamed when remembering them
Yet all my honor and dignity is through my love of them
So Glory be to you
They are exalted because they Worship only You as the most sincerest of all creatures to You
And are nothing compared to you
And we honored because We worship only you and exalted only the chosen ones
And because we accept them as your representatives and proofs
And as the means towards you
And the means to understand your holy books
So who am I who only grasps at crumbs of honor from your Table
And who are you which is beyond even the Abundance
Given to Mohammad and Ali
Who are you who descriptions go astray regarding you
Attributes fall short of giving your proper due
And who is filled to the extent he misses nothing
And all is found in him
And who am I who sins are but rebellion to your sacred essence
And disgrace myself into the negative
And who are you if you wish can punish and exact justice on me
Having the last say
And who am I who doesn't control a mustard seed of benefit for myself
And without your help and grace would perish
And who are you who forbears and protects me against my great evils
Despite the fact out all people I was most proper and befitting
That given the knowledge and wisdom you given me
That I obey you
And so am I but the evil servant
And who are you but the good Lord
Forgive my evil ways
And enter me in your Mercy
And by intercession of the exalted souls
Mohammad, Ali and Fatima
And the purified sacred souls from them
Who you chosen as your treasured gifts to humanity
Who's way is but obedience to you
Who's love to you is their greatest treasure
And what see as honor to them
Is but a means of a favor to us
Who am I and who are they?
And who are they and who are you?
And who am I and who are you?
Forgive and have mercy upon my corrupted soul
And ease the way to your garden
Amen Lord of the Worlds.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 29, 2021, 01:46:40 PM
You are not honoured at all infact you are a sinful cursed soul who’s assumptions are regarded as authenticity.


So who will intercede for your silly sod of a soul……..Ali or Fatima? Or are both gonna intercede for you at once?

Your soul definitely is corrupted coming out with nonsense like that.

Equalling Ali ra to the prophet sallalahualihewasalam what a complete and utter IDIOT!!!!
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on December 29, 2021, 03:38:55 PM
You are not honoured at all infact you are a sinful cursed soul who’s assumptions are regarded as authenticity.


So who will intercede for your silly sod of a soul……..Ali or Fatima? Or are both gonna intercede for you at once?

Your soul definitely is corrupted coming out with nonsense like that.

Equalling Ali ra to the prophet sallalahualihewasalam what a complete and utter IDIOT!!!!

This is not for debating, it's poetry bro.  We can debate these topics somewhere else.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 30, 2021, 08:53:50 AM
Poetry full of shirk
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on December 30, 2021, 02:06:27 PM
Poetry full of shirk

We can debate Tawasul in another thread.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 01, 2022, 12:25:40 AM
We can debate Tawasul in another thread.

Asking from Ali ra and Fatima ra?!?!…….I don’t think so
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 01, 2022, 02:26:40 PM
Asking from Ali ra and Fatima ra?!?!…….I don’t think so

Yes Ali (a) and Fatima (s) part of the family we supposed to love (42:23) that are a path to God (25:57).
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 02, 2022, 09:41:05 AM
Yes Ali (a) and Fatima (s) part of the family we supposed to love (42:23) that are a path to God (25:57).

You don’t have to and it’s not a judge between heaven and hell. You can love them and we do love them for they are part of the blessed prophet sallalahualihewasalam’s blessed family……END OF!

They can’t and won’t help us and they cannot do NOTHING especially as they are in barzakh.

You Love them we love them too yet we don’t add lies to them as if they can hear and answer our prayers or that they are divine in any  “magical” sense.

The devil loves lies the Dajjal is a liar and you seem to be their follower especially by plucking Quranic verses out and adding your ‘magical’ assumptions to it thereby creating lies just like your master Iblis.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 02, 2022, 09:47:53 AM
Yes Ali (a) and Fatima (s) part of the family we supposed to love (42:23) that are a path to God (25:57).
when verse 42/23 was revealed was Ali ra and Fatima ra married at the time?
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 02, 2022, 02:33:43 PM
You don’t have to and it’s not a judge between heaven and hell. You can love them and we do love them for they are part of the blessed prophet sallalahualihewasalam’s blessed family……END OF!

They can’t and won’t help us and they cannot do NOTHING especially as they are in barzakh.

You Love them we love them too yet we don’t add lies to them as if they can hear and answer our prayers or that they are divine in any  “magical” sense.

The devil loves lies the Dajjal is a liar and you seem to be their follower especially by plucking Quranic verses out and adding your ‘magical’ assumptions to it thereby creating lies just like your master Iblis.

The Quran talks about the sky reality with lanterns there as missiles/arrows against devils for a reason. They (Ahlulbayt) are meant to be used and they will help us.

The Quran didn't emphasize on intercession only so that we think it no longer applies because Ahlulbayt (A) are not in public vision.

The Quran also talked about witnesses for a reason.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 02, 2022, 02:34:28 PM
when verse 42/23 was revealed was Ali ra and Fatima ra married at the time?

Meccan verses are sometimes found in Madina Surahs and Madina verses added to Meccan Surahs.

I hope that helps.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 03, 2022, 10:56:44 AM
Meccan verses are sometimes found in Madina Surahs and Madina verses added to Meccan Surahs.

I hope that helps.

No it doesn’t and I don’t think you can move forward from here for my question has really halted your stupidity as can be seen from your response……..’hope that helps’.

Your response is the lack of authenticity in your devious sect hence the assumptions you keep adding about divine imams and magic, honestly I am amazed you haven’t featured no goblins or dragons to add in to the mix to spice it up.

Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 03, 2022, 11:03:11 AM
The Quran talks about the sky reality with lanterns there as missiles/arrows against devils for a reason. They (Ahlulbayt) are meant to be used and they will help us.

The Quran didn't emphasize on intercession only so that we think it no longer applies because Ahlulbayt (A) are not in public vision.

The Quran also talked about witnesses for a reason.

Sky reality????

Chill out on them substances bruh……we have here in Pakistan Shiite malangs and they smoke till the cows come home and make up poetry when they HIGH!!!

Ahlubaith can’t and never will help you……unless you calling shaytaans and are believing them to be it.

You have no evidence but assumptions and you are mentally ill especially if you can see magic in the Quran.

You have Nothing but magical assumptions and twisting words of Quran to fit in to your stupid dirty thinking of asking from imams and that too the imams which are not mentioned.

Shiism 👍
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 03, 2022, 12:42:41 PM
Sky reality????

وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 35


This shows if Mohammad (s) can connect people to this reality, he would, but it's not his fault people turn away.

Surah Hijr expands on why he doesn't connect them:

وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ | Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ | they would surely say, ‘Indeed a spell has been cast on our eyes; indeed, we are a bewitched lot.’ | Al-Hijr : 15

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ | Certainly We have made mansions in the sky and adorned them for the onlookers, | Al-Hijr : 16

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ | and We have guarded it from every outcast Satan, | Al-Hijr : 17

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ | except someone who may eavesdrop, whereat there pursues him a manifest flame. | Al-Hijr : 18


Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 03, 2022, 12:44:01 PM
No it doesn’t and I don’t think you can move forward from here for my question has really halted your stupidity as can be seen from your response……..’hope that helps’.

Your response is the lack of authenticity in your devious sect hence the assumptions you keep adding about divine imams and magic, honestly I am amazed you haven’t featured no goblins or dragons to add in to the mix to spice it up.

We can infer this way:

If the verse is about Ahlulbayt (A) - the hadiths that it was revealed about them are correct.

So let's just discuss if the verse is about Ahlulbayt (A) instead of the hadiths and getting into them.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 04, 2022, 11:12:35 AM
We can infer this way:

If the verse is about Ahlulbayt (A) - the hadiths that it was revealed about them are correct.

So let's just discuss if the verse is about Ahlulbayt (A) instead of the hadiths and getting into them.

It’s not a fact the verse isn’t about ahlubaith ra No Ifs or Buts stick to the facts.

Was Ali ra married to Fatima ra at the time the verse was revealed?? Does it include ALL ahlubaith?



Quran is clear…….your head is a MESS!
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 04, 2022, 12:39:50 PM
It’s not a fact the verse isn’t about ahlubaith ra No Ifs or Buts stick to the facts.

It's context of reward. Reward is context of accusation of disbelievers, from viewpoint he is false. It's saying that reward you accuse him of he is false, what that be if he is true?

For example in chapter 25, it emphasizes on Mohammad (s) being a path to God and then reward verse of 25:57 is in this context, and so Mohammad (S) is included.

Mohammad (s) is included in Al-Qurba.  It's saying just recognize and accept Mohammad (S) and his family (a) for who and what they are, the true submission is for God, and we submit to them to submit to God.

Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 06, 2022, 08:50:25 AM
It's context of reward. Reward is context of accusation of disbelievers, from viewpoint he is false. It's saying that reward you accuse him of he is false, what that be if he is true?

For example in chapter 25, it emphasizes on Mohammad (s) being a path to God and then reward verse of 25:57 is in this context, and so Mohammad (S) is included.

Mohammad (s) is included in Al-Qurba.  It's saying just recognize and accept Mohammad (S) and his family (a) for who and what they are, the true submission is for God, and we submit to them to submit to God.



Lol you demented sod lol

Read the verse it’s nothing but CONJECTURE from your part.

No way can you prove it’s the ahlubaith…….look at your stupid assumptions.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 06, 2022, 01:05:45 PM
Salam

I want put out there, not addressing anyone, but in general, Quranic Arabic transcends today's Arabic grammar. Grammar later was developed after Quran, and some of is consistent with Quran and some of it isn't.

Wali in 5:55 is singular, though, it describes more the one entity, but that's purposeful, to emphasize the unity of the Welayat there.

Quran says "and we did not find more then one house from the submitters" but else where Quran says "a people of a house that will take care of him and wish him well"- so which expression is right? The reality is they both are and it's about which sounds better in the instance.

When it comes to Al-Qurba 42:23 has an odd form of that. What do I mean? Everywhere else Qurba is used in Quran, it's preceded either by "Dhul" or "Ulul", possessor and possessors respectively.

Ikhwanal Muslimeen is known in the west as "Muslim brotherhood", even though the translation directly would be "Muslim brothers".

In Lord of the Rings, if you recall "fellowship of the ring" refers to a group of people. "fellows of the ring" just doesn't ring well.

In two other verses, Ulul-Qurba or Dul-Qurba makes sense because it's aligned with "the Messenger" and so you know it refers to the Messenger and those who hold kinship/close relative relationship to him.

The question is why didn't it say "ulul-Qurba" here or "dhul-Qurba"? In 42:23 I mean.

It's because Mohammad (s) is included. But they are the closeness to each other. Same way "fellowship of the ring" has a better ring to it, "Al-Qurba" means there is they are very close to each other family wise, but because this closeness transcends blood relationship at the same time the reward he is accused of has to do with that, it's a very nice expression and includes Mohammad (s) in it. It's mean they are the nearness to one another - the Ahlulbayt (a) are bound to each other by each other.

People can take my word for it or others, or do research if interested.

42:23 to me is undoubtable clear proof of Mohammad's (s) and his family's (a) unity and that they share his station in terms of remembrance and how much he is to be loved.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 06, 2022, 01:08:04 PM
Lol you demented sod lol

Read the verse it’s nothing but CONJECTURE from your part.

No way can you prove it’s the ahlubaith…….look at your stupid assumptions.

The love includes affection. That can't be for abstract concepts or relationship, it has to be towards entities, particularly, humans. So.. the Sunni interpretation is not even possible per Grammar.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 08, 2022, 04:19:22 PM
Salam

I want put out there, not addressing anyone, but in general, Quranic Arabic transcends today's Arabic grammar. Grammar later was developed after Quran, and some of is consistent with Quran and some of it isn't.

Wali in 5:55 is singular, though, it describes more the one entity, but that's purposeful, to emphasize the unity of the Welayat there.

Quran says "and we did not find more then one house from the submitters" but else where Quran says "a people of a house that will take care of him and wish him well"- so which expression is right? The reality is they both are and it's about which sounds better in the instance.

When it comes to Al-Qurba 42:23 has an odd form of that. What do I mean? Everywhere else Qurba is used in Quran, it's preceded either by "Dhul" or "Ulul", possessor and possessors respectively.

Ikhwanal Muslimeen is known in the west as "Muslim brotherhood", even though the translation directly would be "Muslim brothers".

In Lord of the Rings, if you recall "fellowship of the ring" refers to a group of people. "fellows of the ring" just doesn't ring well.

In two other verses, Ulul-Qurba or Dul-Qurba makes sense because it's aligned with "the Messenger" and so you know it refers to the Messenger and those who hold kinship/close relative relationship to him.

The question is why didn't it say "ulul-Qurba" here or "dhul-Qurba"? In 42:23 I mean.

It's because Mohammad (s) is included. But they are the closeness to each other. Same way "fellowship of the ring" has a better ring to it, "Al-Qurba" means there is they are very close to each other family wise, but because this closeness transcends blood relationship at the same time the reward he is accused of has to do with that, it's a very nice expression and includes Mohammad (s) in it. It's mean they are the nearness to one another - the Ahlulbayt (a) are bound to each other by each other.

People can take my word for it or others, or do research if interested.

42:23 to me is undoubtable clear proof of Mohammad's (s) and his family's (a) unity and that they share his station in terms of remembrance and how much he is to be loved.

So was Ali ra married to Fatima ra at that time?

That’s what you need to look upon instead making assumptions based on heresay.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 08, 2022, 04:22:03 PM
The love includes affection. That can't be for abstract concepts or relationship, it has to be towards entities, particularly, humans. So.. the Sunni interpretation is not even possible per Grammar.

Lol then a brain dead Shiite influenced by whispering of shaytaan who isn’t an Arabic speaker himself 1400 years later has found out that the Sunni interpretation is not possible per grammar.

GTFOH!!!
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 09, 2022, 12:35:07 PM
So was Ali ra married to Fatima ra at that time?

That’s what you need to look upon instead making assumptions based on heresay.

Salam

There is two possibilities:

Ali and Fatima were not married(1)
Ali and Fatima were married (2)

In the case of 1, it's not impossible it be revealed about them still. The reason is that Mohammad (s) can know he will have a chosen Ahlulbayt without knowing exactly who they are at this point or if he knows who they will be, it can be the nation doesn't know but that they are expected to love them whoever they are. In this case, Hassan (a) and Hussain (a) would not be born, but they are loved in archetype way, that whoever is born to be part of Mohammad's (s) family is to be loved.

And Ali (a) and Fatima (a) even if not married, would be included in Al-Qurba at this point same way Haroun (a) and Mariam (a) the first one (sister of Musa (a) and Haroun (a)) were included in Ahlulbayt of Musa (a).

Then we have the 2nd possibility, that they were married. In this case, even if Hassan (a) and Hussain (a) were not born, the good news of them could have been given like Ismail (a), Isaac (a) and Yaqoub (a).

There is two views among Sunni scholars. One is that Meccan verses are found in some Madina Surahs and some Meccan Surahs some Madina verses were added later to them. And the other is that Madina Surahs are purely Madina and Meccan Surahs purely Meccan. I've seen no evidence of the latter, but evidence of the former in hadiths.






Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 09, 2022, 12:37:28 PM
Lol then a brain dead Shiite influenced by whispering of shaytaan who isn’t an Arabic speaker himself 1400 years later has found out that the Sunni interpretation is not possible per grammar.

GTFOH!!!

Well according to the Arabic dictionaries, it includes affection and is type of love humans have for one another, and is not even used for animals, let alone abstract things.

Another point to mention, is, the reward implies what disbelievers would do if they believe. So from that viewpoint the Sunni view doesn't make sense either.

And to say this all the Rasool (s) asked of them is also wrong.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 11, 2022, 06:34:50 AM
Salam

There is two possibilities:

Ali and Fatima were not married(1)
Ali and Fatima were married (2)

In the case of 1, it's not impossible it be revealed about them still. The reason is that Mohammad (s) can know he will have a chosen Ahlulbayt without knowing exactly who they are at this point or if he knows who they will be, it can be the nation doesn't know but that they are expected to love them whoever they are. In this case, Hassan (a) and Hussain (a) would not be born, but they are loved in archetype way, that whoever is born to be part of Mohammad's (s) family is to be loved.

And Ali (a) and Fatima (a) even if not married, would be included in Al-Qurba at this point same way Haroun (a) and Mariam (a) the first one (sister of Musa (a) and Haroun (a)) were included in Ahlulbayt of Musa (a).

Then we have the 2nd possibility, that they were married. In this case, even if Hassan (a) and Hussain (a) were not born, the good news of them could have been given like Ismail (a), Isaac (a) and Yaqoub (a).

There is two views among Sunni scholars. One is that Meccan verses are found in some Madina Surahs and some Meccan Surahs some Madina verses were added later to them. And the other is that Madina Surahs are purely Madina and Meccan Surahs purely Meccan. I've seen no evidence of the latter, but evidence of the former in hadiths.








Lol you cannot even agree on history yet you base your assumptions on historical events.

If you don’t know the history or are basing it on assumptions of other sunnies then the interpretation of your verses based on your assumptions is……Wrong!

Simple as That!

Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 11, 2022, 01:13:47 PM
Salam

Like I said, regardless of when it was revealed, it's still about Ahlulbayt.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 11, 2022, 01:39:02 PM
Salam

The accusation of reward is saying that which you deem Mohammad (s) ask seeking as a selfish reward from your viewpoint, what is that, but from the viewpoint he is true but a path to God in 25:57.

Through out Quran, the issue of reward is brought because it's important to realize people think Mohammad (s) wants something for what he is doing. This is normal, when we think of false Prophets, if they ask, what motive they have that benefits them. We say well you get followers, you become famous, perhaps you enjoy the reputation even if fake, perhaps you enjoy having such status even if a lot of people reject you for it. Perhaps the person wants to be able to landscape morals and form a religion.

This all can be seen as a reward. The fact he is obeyed gives him all sorts of power. Musa (a) and Haroun (a) were for example accused of wanting power in the earth despite clear proofs they presented.

So to understand, the mindset of people who doubt, is I don't want to be duped for the benefit of Mohammad (s). What if he lied, he has a lot to gain.

Quran acknowledges this would be a reward if he is a false Prophet, but from viewpoint he is a true Prophet, which he wishes humans to consider, all this would be a path to God per Surah 25, and with respect to kinship it's but a reminder to the worlds (see Surah 6) since Prophets in the past came in groups related to each other.

Other Surahs like Surah The Poets, shows, that Prophets in the past would emphasize their reward (they are accused of aside from wealth which they don't ask at all)what is that reward but something only upon God, it's upon God to establish obedience to a person from humans, because that is the way to God.

It's not only upon God but upon no one else to establish authority, who to follow, reputation, leadership, this is contrast to Pharaoh who was established by falsehood means without proof from God.

And leaders of disbelievers who lead without proof from God.

In Surah 35, it emphasizes whatever of reward they can accuse Nabi (s) of seeking for it is that not in fact, for ourselves?

42:23 is said in context of above, "as for the reward, it's nothing but love of the family chosen by God of which in this time is Mohammad (s) and his family...." The difference is while other reward verses are arguing it's a path to God etc, this is saying, what is that in plain words but recognizing and loving Mohammad (s) along with his family (a) for who they are and then further argues, "whoever does goodness we increase him in it's beauty", this suggests that Ahlulbayt (a) are necessary to believe in to do good which is also suggested by the preceding line "that is the good news he gives to his servants such as believe and do good deeds".

This about faith.

The context is REWARD.

It doesn't make sense to say "O you who disbelieve I ask you no reward for it, all I really ask you is you love the kinship between you and me" sorry it doesn't make sense, Rasool (s) is calling them to worship God, asking more than that, and why emphasize on reward with respect to the subject?

The same is true of loving our own kin, it doesn't make sense, what does that have to do with the reward they accuse him of?

It's obviously in the same spirit of all the verses about reward. Mainly, Mohammad (s) doesn't ask any, but in 42:23, God makes it that really all that they accuse of him selfish reward is just loving him for who he is and his family for who they are since the object of obedience and submission, is not them, but to God.

Sure, they are in control, bossing us around, if they are false, but from viewpoint they are true, we are just submitting to them to submit to God, we obey them to obey God.

This the flow of the Surah, it's about God's Mastership and his unique relationship and Welayat with his creation.

Mohammad (S) is a means, his family is a means, they are not the goal of obedience, God is the goal.

This is why after it says "Or do they say he has forged it..." and argues even if Mohammad (S) is false, the logic shown, is they should seek a chosen kin from God, that is a form of chosen words from God - because God can in this case (if Mohammad (s) is false) annul the falsehood and verify the truth with his words (miracles, revelation, leaders appointed by him) so no excuse to turn away from God's guidance.

But surely Mohammad (s) is not a forger and his guidance is the Guidance of God.

The Surah goes on to talk about the veil with respect to God speaking to his servants and about the spirit from his command being a light by which God guides whoever he wishes.

Sure, the Spirit of his command, whoever is given this, is given authority over humanity and if humanity obeys, he will have everyone under his command.

But this a grace from God and the true object of submission is the light of that light, which is God himself.

They are a means to God while God is the Goal of obedience, submission, and offering reward. They are not worshiped, only God is.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 11, 2022, 02:16:42 PM
Salam

My question is how do you interpret 42:23 and what's your methodology? Me, personally, I recall most of Quran when it comes to it. It funnels a lot of Quran from topics of chosen ones and their mystic kinship and the form they come in groups known by various titles including "Ahlulbayt", the reward verses in general are all recalled, mainly that it's an accusation and not a reality and what soothsayers see Mohammad (s) doing miracles for (accuse him as a sorcerer seeking authority and moral landscaping) and most of Quran including topic of Tawhid and obedience to God can be funneled to it. But that's just me. I want to see your methodology.

Since there is many hadiths about 42:23, I want to see your methodology in knowing which one is true. Let's see if you can go past circular reasoning justification for it (Bukhari is deemed more authentic because my scholars say so, and my scholars are enlightened and to be followed because they are based on the Sunnah they themselves authenticate).

I have a feeling you are caught in circular reasoning in approaching Quran and Sunnah.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 12, 2022, 10:27:59 AM
Salam

My question is how do you interpret 42:23 and what's your methodology? Me, personally, I recall most of Quran when it comes to it. It funnels a lot of Quran from topics of chosen ones and their mystic kinship and the form they come in groups known by various titles including "Ahlulbayt", the reward verses in general are all recalled, mainly that it's an accusation and not a reality and what soothsayers see Mohammad (s) doing miracles for (accuse him as a sorcerer seeking authority and moral landscaping) and most of Quran including topic of Tawhid and obedience to God can be funneled to it. But that's just me. I want to see your methodology.

Since there is many hadiths about 42:23, I want to see your methodology in knowing which one is true. Let's see if you can go past circular reasoning justification for it (Bukhari is deemed more authentic because my scholars say so, and my scholars are enlightened and to be followed because they are based on the Sunnah they themselves authenticate).

I have a feeling you are caught in circular reasoning in approaching Quran and Sunnah.

Circular reasoning?? Methadology?Mate your premise starts off with ASSUMPTIONS you dimwit!

The Quran is clear the verses are clear you don’t need methadology on CLEAR verses Dimwit!

You cannot even substantiate with surety that Ali ra was married to Fatima ra or not instead you are basing your assumption on something you don’t even have a clue about.

That is your main problem, I guess being a Shiite really does make you dimwit.

A brain dead mentally disturbed individual who sees magic and interprets Quran according to whispers of shaitaan isn’t worth the dirt on ANY scholar.

Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 12, 2022, 12:54:45 PM
Salam

I agree 42:23 is clear, but when people start playing language games, you have to show them they are doing that.

As I've shown, 42:23 is clearly about loving Ahlulbayt (a).

One meaning is obviously clear per contextualization rules of Quran.

If you argue that is the Sunni one, you should show why and how.

But you can't.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 14, 2022, 02:08:13 PM
Salam

One of the reasons Quran repeats is to paraphrase truth and arguments from different angles, but also to contextualize some of it's verses. Take for example the issue of "reward". It's repeated but this helps solidify Ahlulbayt (a) position in Quran and at the same time address the doubts of disbelievers.

Surah Anaam

And this argument we gave to Ibrahim upon his people, we raise in stages who we wish, indeed your lord is knowing wise.

And we gave him Isaac and Yaqoub all did we guide before him and all that we guided, and Noah did we guide before, and from his offspring Dawood, and Sulaiman, and Ayub and Yusuf and Musa and Harun and thus do we reward the doers of good.

And Zakariya and Yahya and Isa and Elyas all from the righteous.

And Ismail, and Alyasa, and Yonus, and Lut, and all did we gave preference over the worlds.

And from the fathers, and their offspring, and their brothers, and we distinguished them and guided them to the straight path.

These are they who God has guided, so by their guidance follow; say: no reward do I ask for it in that is only a reminder to the worlds.


The first case of mention of reward takes place in Surah Anaam in connection with chosen ones of the past and they being relatives and blood linked to one another.

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّهُ ۖ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ ۗ قُلْ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا ۖ إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَىٰ لِلْعَالَمِينَ


Then in Surah Yonus:

فَإِنْ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَمَا سَأَلْتُكُمْ مِنْ أَجْرٍ ۖ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلَّا عَلَى اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ

So if you turn your back, so what reward have I asked of you in that my reward (in this case) is only upon God and I've been commanded to be of the submitters.


In Surah Hud:

وَيَا قَوْمِ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ مَالًا ۖ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلَّا عَلَى اللَّهِ ۚ وَمَا أَنَا بِطَارِدِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ إِنَّهُمْ مُلَاقُو رَبِّهِمْ وَلَٰكِنِّي أَرَاكُمْ قَوْمًا تَجْهَلُونَ


And o my people, I ask you no wealth regarding it, indeed my reward (you accuse me of) is only upon God (in reality to establish) nor am I going to drive away those who believe for they will meet their Lord but rather I see that you are a people who behave ignorantly.

يَا قَوْمِ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا ۖ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلَّا عَلَى الَّذِي فَطَرَنِي ۚ أَفَلَا تَعْقِلُونَ

O my people I ask you no reward in that my reward (in this case) is only upon the one who originated me will you not understand?

In Surah Yusuf:


وَمَا تَسْأَلُهُمْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ أَجْرٍ ۚ إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا ذِكْرٌ لِلْعَالَمِينَ

And what reward do you ask them but that it is only a reminder to the worlds?



In Surah Mominoon


أَمْ تَسْأَلُهُمْ خَرْجًا فَخَرَاجُ رَبِّكَ خَيْرٌ ۖ وَهُوَ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ

Or do you ask them recompense? So the recompense of your Lord is better and is best of those who provide sustenance.

وَإِنَّكَ لَتَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ

And surely you call them to a straight path.


In Surah Furqan:

قُلْ مَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ أَجْرٍ إِلَّا مَنْ شَاءَ أَنْ يَتَّخِذَ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِ سَبِيلًا

Say: What reward do I ask for it except that for who wants to, to take towards their Lord a path?

In Surah Shuara:


وَمَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ أَجْرٍ ۖ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

(repeated verse many times in the same chapter of different Messengers saying it)

And what of a reward do I ask of it in that (in this case) my reward is only upon the Lord of the worlds?

In Surah Saba


قُلْ مَا سَأَلْتُكُمْ مِنْ أَجْرٍ فَهُوَ لَكُمْ ۖ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلَّا عَلَى اللَّهِ ۖ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

Say: whatever reward I have asked of you so then it is for yourselves indeed my reward (you accuse me of) is only upon God and he is a witness upon all things.



In Surah Yaseen


اتَّبِعُوا مَنْ لَا يَسْأَلُكُمْ أَجْرًا وَهُمْ مُهْتَدُونَ

Follow who asks you no reward and they themselves are guided.



In Surah Saad


قُلْ مَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ أَجْرٍ وَمَا أَنَا مِنَ الْمُتَكَلِّفِينَ

Say: what reward do I ask of it - and I am not of the pretentious -

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا ذِكْرٌ لِلْعَالَمِينَ

In that is only a reminder to the worlds

وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ نَبَأَهُ بَعْدَ حِينٍ

And you will know of it's tiding after a time.



In Surah Shura

ذَٰلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ ۗ قُلْ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ ۗ وَمَنْ يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ

That is good news God gives to his servants that believe and do good/setting aright deeds; say: I ask no reward for it except the love in the kinsfolk and whoever does goodness we increase him therein in it's beauty, indeed God is Forgiving, Thankful.


In Surah Toor:

أَمْ تَسْأَلُهُمْ أَجْرًا فَهُمْ مِنْ مَغْرَمٍ مُثْقَلُونَ

Or do you ask them a reward so that they are by debt overwhelmed?


In Surah Qalam:



أَمْ تَسْأَلُهُمْ أَجْرًا فَهُمْ مِنْ مَغْرَمٍ مُثْقَلُونَ

Or do you ask them a reward so that they are by debt overwhelmed?


It's obvious with all these verses the reward is an accusation which Quran says would be true if he is false, but what would that be but a path to God, a reminder to the worlds, upon no one but God to do and establish for his servant, not asking any wealth in that, and just loving Ahlulbayt and honoring them for who they are in reality, since we don't give them authority if they are true but to submit to God and we just recognizing them for their holy position in this case and in reality Mohammad (s) seeks no reward just as previous Prophets (a) didn't, but were explaining what they are accused of from power, authority, etc, and to consider that from both viewpoints.

Thus Quran repeats same themes, but it's not a flaw of Quran, but one of it's eloquent features to maintain it's meaning.

The reward verses also all have a context within the Surah, for example, in Surah Al-Furqan, there is heavy emphasis that they accuse Mohammad (s) and that by doing so they lost their path to God and will not find a way. So the reward as a path to God makes sense in this Surah more then other places.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 14, 2022, 02:16:03 PM
Salam

So there is 13 Surahs to contextualize the 13 phrases (one the phrases is repeated many times in Surah Poets and of them twice in two different Surahs).

And with Al-Qurba, there is also many verses about chosen families through out Quran and it also links to Dul-Qurba and Ulul-Qurba along Messenger (s) and God with respect to Khums.

There is no excuse thus by Quran by Quran, to not see Ahlulbayt (a) clearly for the position God has given them.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 15, 2022, 07:23:43 PM
Salam

I agree 42:23 is clear, but when people start playing language games, you have to show them they are doing that.

As I've shown, 42:23 is clearly about loving Ahlulbayt (a).

One meaning is obviously clear per contextualization rules of Quran.

If you argue that is the Sunni one, you should show why and how.

But you can't.

Easily answered by verse of Quran as is my argument against your ASSUMPTIONS!!!!

Quran: 3/7

“He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”


All them blessed surahs you posted have no way or are in anyway explaining reward as meaning ahlu baith……rather that’s your own stupid thinking especially by the way you twist the meaning of surahs to add in your contextual assumption.

😂😂😂😂😂

Man I think you’ve been smoking pipe too long and now you have visions whereby shaytaan makes you believe in his stupidity of divine imams moving atoms and shooting arrows OMG!!!

Look at your posts they start off with assumptions especially what you dreamt or think because your mind is a dirty cesspit great for the devils to enter and feast on…….as can be seen on this site.

😁

This is where shaytaan comes into your dreams and makes you believe you are seeing sorcerers and magic and light 😂😂😂😂😂😂 honestly you are a straight up DIMWIT!!!
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 16, 2022, 12:07:31 AM
Salam

The blessed Surahs I've quoted from contextualize the way "reward" is used with respect to Messengers missions.  I didn't say they say Ahlulbayt everywhere. They want to explain to people what would be a reward if they are false, is actually, a guidance from God and upon God to do if they are true.

Take for example in Surah Hud, before the mention of Nuh (a) asking reward, it's mentioned he says this:

قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ أَرَأَيْتُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّي وَآتَانِي رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِنْدِهِ فَعُمِّيَتْ عَلَيْكُمْ أَنُلْزِمُكُمُوهَا وَأَنْتُمْ لَهَا كَارِهُونَ

He said, ‘O my people! Tell me, should I stand on a manifest proof from my Lord, and He has granted me His own mercy—though it should be invisible to you—shall we force it upon you while you are averse to it?

This means consider I am on a clear proof, so it's saying, why in this case, it would not be forced upon them to believe and know for certain like day of judgment type signs and proof, but rather, they have to accept out of love.

Then he continues:


وَيَا قَوْمِ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ مَالًا ۖ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلَّا عَلَى اللَّهِ ۚ وَمَا أَنَا بِطَارِدِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ إِنَّهُمْ مُلَاقُو رَبِّهِمْ وَلَٰكِنِّي أَرَاكُمْ قَوْمًا تَجْهَلُونَ


And o my people, I ask you no wealth regarding it, indeed my reward (you accuse me of) is only upon God (in reality to establish) nor am I going to drive away those who believe for they will meet their Lord but rather I see that you are a people who behave ignorantly.



The preceding verse contextualizes that Prophets (s) do the "consider me true" options. They don't just say "I am true".

After 42:23, it does something similar, it says "Or do they say he has forged it, then..." and this a consider me I am false, then still, God would guide by book + Guides (words of God he would verify with).

This means the context of reward is something God is bringing up because people see false Prophets having benefits for their claim, the Quran says, these benefits if they are false, consider what these selfish rewards would be if they were true and hence not seeking any reward.

It's very clear brother.

They all are said in this spirit. For example, 25:57 is saying that which they would deem a reward if he is false, what is all that, if true, but taking a path to God.

This is the way they are said. And all are MUHKAM (CLEAR) and even more clear when combined.







Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 18, 2022, 09:26:49 PM
Salam

Something to notice it also says "the love" not simple "love", that is subtle, but that is to say the love in the kin is saying there is a love they are due, and as far as he can be accused of seeking a selfish reward from power authority leadership etc, all that can be said to be nothing but recognizing and loving the position he has for who he is and his family share with him that, but the word "the" suggests there is but one love for every single member of Al-Qurba.

They are all due one single love.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 18, 2022, 09:35:00 PM
Salam

Also notice "and.." only appears in this reward verse (42:23) as opposed to other reward verses, this is because all other verses are already explaining and defending what Mohammad (s) or a Prophet or a Messenger would be accused of seeking a reward to be really this and that and is not a selfish reward, and so is defending the Prophet (s). 42:23 starts with simply saying all that you accuse him of is in fact "the love" in the kin, and so yes, you are correct, he has authority, obedience is due to him, you must submit to every command he says, etc, and as well his family who will be from the offspring of Fatima share with him that. But if it left it at that, it would not be defending the Prophet (s) so it's saying, yes, he is due to all these things and his family as well, but this a means to do goodness, and God will forgive and appreciate anyone who does this and reward them for this act of goodness (the love in Al-Qurba).
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on January 23, 2022, 03:18:40 PM
Easily answered by verse of Quran as is my argument against your ASSUMPTIONS!!!!

Quran: 3/7


Salam

The Quran shows those with understanding follow the best of Quran. Per hadiths, this is the clear decisive signs which 3:7 says is the origin of the book,

Imam Hussain (a) says what allows tyrants to rule us is that we follow what is unclear and dispute in religion despite there being clear proofs, out of love of dunya.

It can be said, that what is unclear in our heads, has nothing to do with Quran. Because for example, Allah (swt) does not want us to affirm he is One if it's unclear to us. He wants us to know he is One by insights and proofs. He also doesn't want us to rely on conjecture to know he is One.

Since Quran has clarified everything in itself and is decisively clear, how does unclearness exist in it? The fault is of us, if we decide to follow ambiguity from it, it's due to us preferring our own opinions with no proof about Quran, rather then what has clear proofs in Quran and Sunnah.

The Quran is clear, it's a mercy and guidance for those who believe but doesn't increase the oppressors except in loss.

We have been directed to the firmly rooted in knowledge because per another verse, those given the knowledge, the Quran is ALL clear signs to them. Nothing of it is unclear to them.

The Quran is also of many stages, it heightens itself with respect to itself, infinitely loops itself and augments to new levels. This is it's greatest sign that it is from God. How it's guidance amplifies with guidance.

The Quran is a book full of signs, clear proofs, and insights, if we choose to follow an ambiguous interpretation to a key important verse for example 4:59 as opposed to letting the Quran contextualize it, the punishment is rightly the fire forever, unless we repent. This is because 4:59 if the context is divinely appointed leaders from God is linked to submission to him and they would have the similar right as to chosen leaders of the past.

To call a verse ambiguous is a serious sign we don't want to follow it's clear interpretation in Quran and rather impose a meaning to it by our desires.

The importance of leaders appointed by God is emphasized in Quran, so therefore if 4:59 by context of 4:54 means that they are of a structure like Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) and so we are to not envy them but obey them, and we seek to an unproven by Quran interpretation and impose it on the Quran, it becomes befitting of God to lead us astray and not guide us unless we repent.

This is because it's an act of rebellion towards God's favors and chosen ones, which is never accepted by God and all so called righteous deeds in this state will have no value. Rather then acknowledging his favor, we sought to decontextualize the clear context of 4:59 with verses preceding and after.
Title: Re: Who are you? And who am I?
Post by: Soccer on November 04, 2022, 02:11:46 PM


This is where shaytaan comes into your dreams and makes you believe you are seeing sorcerers and magic and light 😂😂😂😂😂😂 honestly you are a straight up DIMWIT!!!

Salam

Allah (swt) wants us to connect with himself and Rasool (s) and his family (a).


وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 35

This shows if Mohammad (s) can connect people to this reality, he would, but it's not his fault people turn away.

Surah Hijr expands on why he doesn't connect them:

وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ | Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ | they would surely say, ‘Indeed a spell has been cast on our eyes; indeed, we are a bewitched lot.’ | Al-Hijr : 15

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ | Certainly We have made mansions in the sky and adorned them for the onlookers, | Al-Hijr : 16

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ | and We have guarded it from every outcast Satan, | Al-Hijr : 17

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ | except someone who may eavesdrop, whereat there pursues him a manifest flame. | Al-Hijr : 18

 

This means if we are not one of the "onlookers" to the lanterns of light in the sky, we are blinded only because God knows we are not ready.

Also, the verses say they are weapons/missiles against devils, and we read in Ziyarats that Imams (a) are light of those in the darkness as well.

This means even in our darkness and affliction, we can drive away and fight the devils by these beautiful names of God.

It's the same reason if Imam Mahdi (a) has not come to us with physical miracles, it's because, God knows there is a high chance of accusing him and all Messengers in reality, of being sorcerers.

Remember Pharaoh saw all type of signs, physical and spiritual, but he saw that Musa (a) was possessed by "Allah" and that he can reach "Allah".

So we have to drive away rebellion and arrogance to chosen ones, defeat hypocrisy, and inshallah, Allah's (swt) light and miracles and signs and wonders will manifest to us in time.