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Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?

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Imam Ali

Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« on: May 15, 2017, 09:25:49 PM »
Asalamualaikum to everyone.

I hope we're all getting ready for Ramadan, Insh'Allah.

Did it every occur to you guys, why some our of Sunni bredrins take the plunge, and embrace the religion of Iblis?

Is it psychology? Is it because of a theological issue, or is it because they have self-exposed themselves in the company of persuasive Rawafidh who have their warped their minds upside down?

If, you browse ShiaChat.com, it is alleged many of the new members are actually ex-Sunnis.

This is by no means a concern because suddenly there is a large scale of Sunni making the jump, but it's a question worth contemplating over. It's equivalent to Iblis himself declaring the shahadah! :P

What do you brothers think?  ;D

Rationalist

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2017, 12:12:02 AM »
The Sunnis have white wash version of history, so the 12ers exploit that. Then when the Sunnis go back their parents or a Sunni zakir they advise the Sunnis to stay from the 12er Shia.

Also, the research exposing the 12er Shia sect is very limited on the Sunni side. Instead of focusing on the details of the 12er Shia sect, Sunnis get trapped into debates such as Ahlul bayt vs Sahaba.

Hani

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 12:24:10 AM »
Salam,

That is due to reasons:

1- Sunnies aren't brainwashed (A regular Sunni may easily shift Madhab, opinion or Tariqah without extremism, Shia on the other hand is centered on revering Ahlul-Bayt and giving them grand status, leaving Tashayyu` is similar to leaving Islam for them)

2- Sunnies think well of others (A regular Sunni does not think of other Muslims as being Kuffar or non-Brothers, SHia on the other hand demonize and rebuke non-Shia as enemies of Ahlul-Bayt and followers of Umayyads)

3- Sunnies are a little ignorant of their own religious sciences (A regular Sunni doesn't know much about religious sciences, if he did he wouldn't downgrade to Tashayyu` which is inferior in every science)

4- Sunnies are completely ignorant of Tashayyu` (A regular Sunni doesn't know anything about Shiasm, if he did he wouldn't be fooled by Taqiyyah and he'd realize the malicious teachings of that sect)

5- Sunnies are ignorant about Hadith and Tarikh (A regular Sunni doesn't know how to deal with weak narrations nor is he well-read when it comes to history books, this puts them at disadvantage when Shia quote large lists of sources from online)

6- Sunnies have great love for Ahlul-Bayt (Shia have effective marketing strategy, telling your average Muslim to follow the "Madhab of Ahlul-Bayt" is irresistible for most people)

7- Sunnies may be persuaded by simple political propaganda (Such as using resistance to Israel and other means of Taqiyyah Mudaratiyyah are effective against average Sunnies)

That's what I got from the top of my head, feel free to add.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 12:31:47 AM »
The Sunnis have white wash version of history, so the 12ers exploit that. Then when the Sunnis go back their parents or a Sunni zakir they advise the Sunnis to stay from the 12er Shia.

Also, the research exposing the 12er Shia sect is very limited on the Sunni side. Instead of focusing on the details of the 12er Shia sect, Sunnis get trapped into debates such as Ahlul bayt vs Sahaba.

I agree, the average Sunni is taught a version of history that doesn't even match what's recorded in our own history books. That's the entire purpose of my Saqifah book. When a Sunni is taught that the Sahabah had no issues, no differences and things were as smooth as butter for the most part, the smallest quote that implies a difference can cause a Sunni to doubt everything and abandon his beliefs.

Of course our scholars will argue that it's  purer for our hearts to mention what is good an forget what is bad, to remember the good deeds of those who passed away and overlook their mistakes, to supplicate and ask God to forgive the sins, to not get into anything controversial so as to not wrong any of our predecessors unintentionally etc...

Shia will surely jump at this and exploit it since their entire faith is based on slandering certain personalities, character assassination, cursing of historical opponents...
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimAnswers

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 04:14:56 AM »
^

There is one important issue: The common Muslim will have some learned Islam mostly through a unorganized, informal methodology, so it is possible that he/she gets confused by attacks from outsiders.

However, the number of common Sunnis leaving to become Twelvers is still minuscule in comparison to those proudly proclaiming outright apostasy from Islam, and this is much more than even all inter-sectarian conversions combined. I don't think anyone familiar with our era doubts that this is the situation, and in the case of us Sunnis at least I think it does stem again from the lack of formal knowledge and the inability to properly identify and analyze arguments from other camps.

Hadrami

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 08:53:44 AM »
Asalamualaikum to everyone.

I hope we're all getting ready for Ramadan, Insh'Allah.

Did it every occur to you guys, why some our of Sunni bredrins take the plunge, and embrace the religion of Iblis?

Is it psychology? Is it because of a theological issue, or is it because they have self-exposed themselves in the company of persuasive Rawafidh who have their warped their minds upside down?

If, you browse ShiaChat.com, it is alleged many of the new members are actually ex-Sunnis.

This is by no means a concern because suddenly there is a large scale of Sunni making the jump, but it's a question worth contemplating over. It's equivalent to Iblis himself declaring the shahadah! :P

What do you brothers think?  ;D

Lack of knowledge of our own history & shia arguments. The problem compounded by the fitna discussion taboo which is prevalent among us, Sunni. By avoiding the discussion:

1. people think there is something to hide (conspiracy theory when in fact I think the scholars just want us laymen to learn other beneficial knowledge)

2. we don't know much about what really happened which would be extremely good for us (my personal experience, even knowing some of the authentic history of what happened then can easily destroy shiaism belief & increase sunni confidence)

Muhammad Tazin

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2017, 12:58:40 PM »
There are some other reasons I think, as per my observation on Shia missionaries in South Asia,-

1) Sunni's usually  dislike Yazeed. Shia preachers use that to sow the seed of Tashayyu in their mind. They say- "Look, Yazeed is to be hated ,isn't it? But your scholars do not curse him" . That makes a great emotional impact on the mind of Sunni laymen. Then, Yazeed is attached with Muawiya(r.a.), Shia preachers creates another point that- "Yazeed is so wicked, but his father appointed him as Ruler! and your Sunni scholars take Muawiya as a Sahabi" . These things crashes the mind of an innocent Sunni, and he becomes regretful about being in the Ahlus Sunnah sect!!

2) Palestine issue!  Arab kings are hugging, oiling,trading with USA- the caretaker if Israel. also, these KSA & other Arab nations are not helping Palestine at all!  But Iran & Hezbollah are funding Hamas,aiding them with missiles etc. and they themselves are fighting against Israel.
This is the beginner's choice for jumping into SHiaism and madly supporting them.

3) Anti-Salafism. There are some Salafi scholars, Dawah agencies, which are too much strict against graves,fairy tales of Sufi's etc. That hurts some Extreme Sufism supporters to lean towards Tashayyu.

MuslimK

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Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2017, 01:47:52 PM »
Firstly, the Ahl-Sunnah make up 90% of the world's Muslim population while the Shia sects make up the rest so it is easy for them (and other deviant groups) to mislead ignorant Sunnis. Their missionaries roam freely in majority of the Muslim countries. They build their centres etc. While the same can not be said about the Sunnis in Iran , a majority Shia country - they are not even allowed to have a proper Mosque in Tehran let alone a centre.

It starts mostly with political propaganda. Although the Syrian crisis have exposed them to some extent.

Like the other brothers mentioned Sunnis are ignorant of polemical discussions - an average Sunni have no clue. And many of those Sunnis who discuss with Shias online only know about Muta'h - just the basics of it. Other than that they have no clue about Shiism nor of Sunni responses.

Sunni preachers and activists focus on inviting non-Muslims to Islam - while the Shia sect's main target are the Sunnis - that's what their sect is based on. Even their hadith literature is all about reacting to Sunnis. After all it is a reactionary sect.

If one or two ignorant Sunni is mislead by them - then hundreds of non-Muslims become Muslim and become part of the Ahl-Sunnah wal Jama'ah. Praise be to Allah - look at all those countries that have new Muslim communities - they are majority Sunni because Allah spreads his religion through the Sunnis and this has been the way throughout history.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 03:10:10 AM by MuslimK »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

MuslimAnswers

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2017, 02:40:49 PM »
Quote
3) Anti-Salafism. There are some Salafi scholars, Dawah agencies, which are too much strict against graves,fairy tales of Sufi's etc. That hurts some Extreme Sufism supporters to lean towards Tashayyu.

======

This is of course quite sad, since the extreme Salafis would probably lump Sufi supporters (of whatever type) with Twelver Shias and not see the harm they are bringing about with these views.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 02:48:27 PM by MuslimAnswers »

MuslimAnswers

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2017, 02:41:28 PM »

2) Palestine issue!  Arab kings are hugging, oiling,trading with USA- the caretaker if Israel. also, these KSA & other Arab nations are not helping Palestine at all!  But Iran & Hezbollah are funding Hamas,aiding them with missiles etc. and they themselves are fighting against Israel.
This is the beginner's choice for jumping into SHiaism and madly supporting them.

One more thing related somehow to Point (2) but more religious in nature, is how some scholars are seen to be merely 'government-brainwashed scholars', to the point that legitimacy of Sunnism itself has been lost, since the big traditional centers are seen as parroting whatever the government in power may want. [Not a totally proper picture I must say, but it does result in disillusionment]

Of course, most Sunnis are unaware of analogous problems Shia clergy may have within Shia-controlled lands (and even of some famous scandals involving even Sunni 'Ulama in Shia-controlled Syria pre-2011), yet this is probably one more point to be added.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 02:43:22 PM by MuslimAnswers »

MuslimAnswers

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2017, 02:42:51 PM »
Quote
Like the other brothers mentioned Sunnis are ignorant of polemical discussions - an average Sunni have no clue. And many of those Sunnis who discuss with Shias online only know about Muta'h - just the basics of it. Other than that they have no clue about Shiism nor of Sunni responses.

It is not much use lampooning people over Mut'ah; it is after all a Fiqhi discussion, and if one doesn't know of the issue better to stay out of it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 02:44:33 PM by MuslimAnswers »

Hani

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2017, 10:01:50 PM »
There are some other reasons I think, as per my observation on Shia missionaries in South Asia,-

3) Anti-Salafism. There are some Salafi scholars, Dawah agencies, which are too much strict against graves,fairy tales of Sufi's etc. That hurts some Extreme Sufism supporters to lean towards Tashayyu.

This last point you mentioned about the Salafi school actually often plays in our favor, a great amount of Shia who convert to Sunnah do so because Salafis concentrate on the following areas:

-Pure monotheism and directing worship towards God.

-Concentrating on Hadith sciences and rejecting myths and tales.

Tashayyu` contains the opposite:

-Pure polytheism at certain instances and minor forms of polytheistic rituals at others.

-Accepting and propagating all forms of fairy-tales and stories by extremists and liars.

I do understand the Salafi/Sufi schools within Ahlul-Sunnah are at odds with each-other, it is possible for certain Sufis to shift closer towards Shiasm and supporting Tashayyu` simply to spite off their Salafi opponents. Although conversions would be rare since Tashayyu` greatly insults some of their biggest Sufi saints.

What I aim for is for these schools to work together:

Salafis: Great knowledge of Hadith sciences.

Sufis: Great knowledge of philosophy and mysticism.

Hanafis: Great knowledge of Fiqh and laws.

Ash`aries/Mutakkalimeen: Great knowledge of Philosophy or Kalaam arguments.

Thus far, most arguments against Tashayyu` have been issued from a Salafi perspective. It seems the other three groups are not very interested in refuting or wasting their time on Shiasm but I've seen some improvements.

This for example is a Hanafi channel:
&t=47s
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 10:07:34 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

أبو ماريا المرزم

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Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2017, 10:34:42 PM »
When one converts to Shiism, there is a very minute chance they had any proper aqeedah. Some were fooled by Iran's "Free Palestine" and that was enough. Some I noticed are also extreme sufis, whose beliefs quite often are not much different than Shiism. For many of these extreme sufis, just picture a shia, and then replace "Ahlul Bayt" with "Muhammad"

The thins with shiism is that it's sectarian by it's very nature. The average sunni has no idea of shia polemics. I didn't know shias existed until I was 8, and I didn't ully understand their theology until my early teens. We give dawah to the non-muslims, while the Shia focus theirs onto ignorant sunnis.
They asked how many will be with the one I hate. I said 313

Hani

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2017, 10:45:36 PM »
I've also briefly mentioned that Shia are good at marketing strategies, slogans such as "Following the school of Ahlul-Bayt" are almost as appealing as Salafi slogans "Worship God alone"

From their most recent strategies are the two following:

A- Link whatever certain terrorist or radical groups are doing to Sunni Islam then portray themselves as peaceful.

I say, anyone who reviewed their recent history is aware of their death squads in `Iraq, their murderous militias in Syria, and historically their brutal decimation of Ahlul-Sunnah in Persia which is recorded in the most horrendous details in MANY history books (worth compiling btw). Furthermore, their religious books also contain identical violent material and it was acted upon by their followers in their wars, refer to this website:
https://shiascans.com/

I add, this conflicts with their other claims that Sunnies are subservient to the west and have sold out and made peace with Israel and stopped resisting the west while only the Shia are engaged in wars and arming groups to attack Israel.

B- Linking "Tawheed" with anthropomorphism (Tajsim/Tashbih) and claiming that Ahlul-Sunnah are not upon Tawheed.

Copying the example of Mu`tazillah, the Twelver Shia of our days began accusing Ahlul-Sunnah of attributing direction or body to God. This of course is inaccurate because it's mainly Salafis who affirm these attributes as God mentioned them whereas the the rest of Ahlul-Sunnah who are a majority don't really follow this method or share this view. In this sense it's sufficient for one to be a Maturidi or Habashi for instance to not be labeled as such.

I also feel that this argument confuses Tawheed with Tanzih (exaltation and transcendence). Any Sunni layperson can simply do Ta'weel or Tafweed if not weakening the text in the first place to avoid this altogether. I do get this a lot from Shia online when they assume by default I'm a Salafi.

Keep in mind the early Imami Shia were mainly Mujassimah and Mushabbihah who believed in a body.

PS. I've not seen a Sunni convert to Shiasm for the two reasons above but I wouldn't be surprised if that happens since the Shia are beginning to concentrate on these aspects.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 10:48:49 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2017, 02:46:48 AM »
The issue with most Sunni converts in when they convert most don't anything about their hadith books. If you ask them about 12er Shia Islam they will go over topics such as Fadak, Saqifa, 12 Calipahs, Jamal, Siffin, Umar's bidah, Ahlul Bayt fiqh and ijihad vs 4 Imams etc. However, when you question them about the Imamate of 12 and the what they attributed to the Imamate they have a weak defense. To defend Imamate they need to attack the 3 Calipahs, but without this method they really have no defense.

MuslimAnswers

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2017, 08:52:38 AM »
Quote
I say, anyone who reviewed their recent history is aware of their death squads in `Iraq, their murderous militias in Syria, and historically their brutal decimation of Ahlul-Sunnah in Persia which is recorded in the most horrendous details in MANY history books (worth compiling btw). Furthermore, their religious books also contain identical violent material and it was acted upon by their followers in their wars, refer to this website:
https://shiascans.com/


Maybe an issue for a separate thread, but are you in contact with the people running the Shiascans website?

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

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Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2017, 04:15:37 PM »
A- Link whatever certain terrorist or radical groups are doing to Sunni Islam then portray themselves as peaceful.

I say, anyone who reviewed their recent history is aware of their death squads in `Iraq, their murderous militias in Syria, and historically their brutal decimation of Ahlul-Sunnah in Persia which is recorded in the most horrendous details in MANY history books (worth compiling btw). Furthermore, their religious books also contain identical violent material and it was acted upon by their followers in their wars, refer to this website:
https://shiascans.com/

I add, this conflicts with their other claims that Sunnies are subservient to the west and have sold out and made peace with Israel and stopped resisting the west while only the Shia are engaged in wars and arming groups to attack Israel.



I'm sure you realise the reason why this argument even exists in the first place is because there is no call for violence against Sunnis in Shi'i texts or by Shi'i scholars, or anything that can be manipulated in such a manner which can be used to violently attack Sunnis. The same cannot be said of Sunnism, wherein you have a certain segment of the Sunni community who believe the blood of the Rafidha is halal and we're not even Muslim. You can blame that on misinterpretation, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Sunnism is being used as an excuse to commit such terror.

As for those Shi'i groups, if we even say what you say is true, there is no proof in the Shi'i books that can be used to justify this, even if there is an attempt at manipulation of the texts.

You find even the most anti-Sunni of the bunch like the Shaykh Al-Habib's of the world who have never even called for such things.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

demmzy15

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2017, 05:33:04 PM »
[ Invalid Attachment ]Sunnis who become Shi'as 'extreme' Soofee and those who's emotions are easily toyed with by the issue(fadak, siffin, jamal, etc)

Virtually all the Shi'as have seen become Sunnis down here were extreme Soofees. The picture below shows such an alliance, they're members of the Tijaniyyah Tariqah and Shi'as celebrating Maulud. [ Invalid Attachment ]
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 05:35:36 PM by demmzy15 »

Rationalist

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2017, 12:34:26 AM »


I'm sure you realise the reason why this argument even exists in the first place is because there is no call for violence against Sunnis in Shi'i texts or by Shi'i scholars, or anything that can be manipulated in such a manner which can be used to violently attack Sunnis. The same cannot be said of Sunnism, wherein you have a certain segment of the Sunni community who believe the blood of the Rafidha is halal and we're not even Muslim. You can blame that on misinterpretation, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Sunnism is being used as an excuse to commit such terror.

As for those Shi'i groups, if we even say what you say is true, there is no proof in the Shi'i books that can be used to justify this, even if there is an attempt at manipulation of the texts.

You find even the most anti-Sunni of the bunch like the Shaykh Al-Habib's of the world who have never even called for such things.

Actually there is tons of narrations where the 12th Imam will kill the enemies of Rafidah, and he will be so aggressive that one will wonder if he following the Sunnah. Next there are narrations where he will destroy mosques. On top of that he puts the Abbasids in shame by resurrecting the bodies of Abi Bakr and Umar. Then after that there is rajah where all the enemies will be punished by him.

In the 12ers Shia view many of the Imams were only doing taqiyyah.

Hadrami

Re: Why do Sunnis jump to Tashayyu?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2017, 02:02:14 AM »
As for those Shi'i groups, if we even say what you say is true, there is no proof in the Shi'i books that can be used to justify this, even if there is an attempt at manipulation of the texts.

You find even the most anti-Sunni of the bunch like the Shaykh Al-Habib's of the world who have never even called for such things.

ah the good old "thats not mainstream shia" excuse. The only difference between khabith type of shia and mainstream shia scholars is taqiyya. Its really that simple :D

 

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