Your ruqya experience.

[muslim720]

It doesn't matter what we're discussing or what ever the subject is, certain Sunnis always have double standards in just about everything.

So you had to put on your "ghungroo" and start dancing around the point, lol!

Prove to me that Ali went astray and how?

I never claimed Imam Ali (ra) went astray; I only made a logical deduction from your claim.  It is your claim, and the overall Shi'i belief, that what the Holy Prophet (saw) intended to write down would have prevented those present (or Muslims at large) from deviating and going astray.  Keeping your claim in mind, the onus is on you to prove Imam Ali, who was also present there but not made privy to this critical piece of information, did not deviate and go astray.

You can't even build the courage to admit and say that Umar objected and even opposed the Prophet s.a.w. despite the matter being clear. He raised his voice in the presence of the Prophet s.a.w and was the cause of a loud and noisy argument.

I could have sworn a khabeeth asked me to leave Umar (ra) out.  Now we are re-visiting Umar (ra) because Barfeela is melting.

Not 'could have deviated" but 'did deviate'. The words of the Prophet s.a.w were "so you don't deviate". Not "so you might not deviate". Clear difference pal.

Exactly!  Exactly my point!  Since you are certain that they "did deviate", it must logically follow that Imam Ali (ra), too, deviated (naudhubillah).  If the prescription was to save everyone and it was not written down, how was Imam Ali (ra) saved from deviating and going astray?  He was not; he deviated and went astray (naudhubillah) if we accept your interpretation of the hadith.  Prove otherwise or shut up!

[iceman]

So you had to put on your "ghungroo" and start dancing around the point, lol!

I never claimed Imam Ali (ra) went astray; I only made a logical deduction from your claim.  It is your claim, and the overall Shi'i belief, that what the Holy Prophet (saw) intended to write down would have prevented those present (or Muslims at large) from deviating and going astray.  Keeping your claim in mind, the onus is on you to prove Imam Ali, who was also present there but not made privy to this critical piece of information, did not deviate and go astray.

I could have sworn a khabeeth asked me to leave Umar (ra) out.  Now we are re-visiting Umar (ra) because Barfeela is melting.

Exactly!  Exactly my point!  Since you are certain that they "did deviate", it must logically follow that Imam Ali (ra), too, deviated (naudhubillah).  If the prescription was to save everyone and it was not written down, how was Imam Ali (ra) saved from deviating and going astray?  He was not; he deviated and went astray (naudhubillah) if we accept your interpretation of the hadith.  Prove otherwise or shut up!

"So you had to put on your "ghungroo" and start dancing around the point, lol!"

You're very familiar with ghungroo and dancing 😀

"I never claimed Imam Ali (ra) went astray; I only made a logical deduction from your claim"

And I proved your logical deduction wrong by giving you an example which you called 'cool story'.

"It is your claim, and the overall Shi'i belief..."

It is not our claim and doesn't have anything to do with us. Just facts which you're sect ignore because of a huge question mark over Umar and those who side with him. Main and major parts of your belief and faith stand on the basis of defending and protecting certain handful of companions.

"the onus is on you to prove Imam Ali......"

No it isn't. You're just using this as a diversion to move the matter away from Umar who was guilty as charged for objecting and opposing the Prophet s.a.w, getting those present to disregard what the Prophet s.a.w had to offer by getting them to think and focus on the book of Allah, and raising his voice and causing a fuss and division right in front of the Prophet s.a.w.

"I could have sworn a khabeeth asked me to leave Umar (ra) out.  Now we are re-visiting Umar (ra) because Barfeela is melting"

No. He just asked you to leave Umar out of it since you are getting all emotional and crazy over Umar's guilty stance. You're finding it hard to accept what Umar did. Just let it go.

So how did Imam Ali deviate? You keep mentioning it but aren't saying how you got to that conclusion. No matter what, you can't save Umar's guilt. And neither can you hide your dishonest personality and conscious 😊

[muslim720]

You're very familiar with ghungroo and dancing 😀

You have subjected us to many of your mujras so we are very familiar with ghungroo and dancing.

And I proved your logical deduction wrong by giving you an example which you called 'cool story'.

You have not even begun scratching the surface.  If the prescription was to prevent those present from deviating and going astray - and this prescription was never written down - then where is your proof that Imam Ali (ra) did not deviate and go astray (in the absence of this prescription)?

For the sake of argument, I agree with your claim only to show you that your claim leaves your own first "infallible" Imam (ra) out to dry.

Main and major parts of your belief and faith stand on the basis of defending and protecting certain handful of companions.

...and here I am defending Imam Ali (ra) by not reading my own meaning into this hadith.  Your interpretation of the narration subjects Imam Ali (ra) to the same level of scrutiny and criticism as much as Umar (ra), possibly more if we consider his duties (as per Shi'i belief of Imamah).

No it isn't. You're just using this as a diversion to move the matter away from Umar who was guilty as charged for objecting and opposing the Prophet s.a.w, getting those present to disregard what the Prophet s.a.w had to offer by getting them to think and focus on the book of Allah, and raising his voice and causing a fuss and division right in front of the Prophet s.a.w.

I will concede that Umar (ra) was guilty of everything you say and more if you admit that he was able to overpower and subdue the Holy Prophet (saw) and the first "infallible" Imam (ra).  Be a man, for the second time, and admit it just like you admitted that your coward ran.  See my signature!

No. He just asked you to leave Umar out of it since you are getting all emotional and crazy over Umar's guilty stance. You're finding it hard to accept what Umar did. Just let it go.

At least you did not contest the fact that you're a khabeeth, lol!

So how did Imam Ali deviate?

Here we go again!  I never claimed Imam Ali (ra) deviated.  I took your claims to a fair conclusion.  If you believe that staying on the path of Islam (and away from deviation and going astray) necessitated the writing down of a will, it is then your duty to prove exceptions to the rule.

[iceman]

You have subjected us to many of your mujras so we are very familiar with ghungroo and dancing.

You have not even begun scratching the surface.  If the prescription was to prevent those present from deviating and going astray - and this prescription was never written down - then where is your proof that Imam Ali (ra) did not deviate and go astray (in the absence of this prescription)?

For the sake of argument, I agree with your claim only to show you that your claim leaves your own first "infallible" Imam (ra) out to dry.

...and here I am defending Imam Ali (ra) by not reading my own meaning into this hadith.  Your interpretation of the narration subjects Imam Ali (ra) to the same level of scrutiny and criticism as much as Umar (ra), possibly more if we consider his duties (as per Shi'i belief of Imamah).

I will concede that Umar (ra) was guilty of everything you say and more if you admit that he was able to overpower and subdue the Holy Prophet (saw) and the first "infallible" Imam (ra).  Be a man, for the second time, and admit it just like you admitted that your coward ran.  See my signature!

At least you did not contest the fact that you're a khabeeth, lol!

Here we go again!  I never claimed Imam Ali (ra) deviated.  I took your claims to a fair conclusion.  If you believe that staying on the path of Islam (and away from deviation and going astray) necessitated the writing down of a will, it is then your duty to prove exceptions to the rule.

"You have subjected us to many of your mujras so we are very familiar with ghungroo and dancing"

😊 It sounds like you're a regular visitor of the Khota 😀

"You have not even begun scratching the surface.  If the prescription was to prevent those present from deviating and going astray - and this prescription was never written down - then where is your proof that Imam Ali (ra) did not deviate and go astray (in the absence of this prescription)"

Why is everything topsy turvy with you. Do you see everything upside down. It's not,

"where is your proof that Imam Ali (ra) did not deviate and go astray"

Infact it is "where is the proof that he did". You are innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around. The matter is clear and I have presented my case.

"For the sake of argument, I agree with your claim only to show you that your claim leaves your own first "infallible" Imam (ra) out to dry"

No it doesn't. You're only saying this because you don't have an open mind and you can't think rationally. You see this as an attack on Umar. So you in return decide to attack Ali. Don't know what that solves and how it comforts and satisfies you.

"will concede that Umar (ra) was guilty of everything you say"

I don't say anything. Facts clearly tell he's guilty.

[muslim720]

Why is everything topsy turvy with you. Do you see everything upside down. It's not,

No, I am drawing conclusions from your own premises and claims.

Infact it is "where is the proof that he did".

When you say that a will designed to prevent those present from deviating and going astray was not written down, one cannot help but imagine who actually went astray.  And that list includes Imam Ali (ra).  So the question is this: when making such claims, how do you defend your own first "infallible" Imam (ra)?

You cannot!  As we have seen your helplessness thus far.  So it is better you shut up.

No it doesn't. You're only saying this because you don't have an open mind and you can't think rationally.

It is exactly because I have a rational mind that I see a conclusion you cannot account for.  You want to make claims but not account for their consequences.  If the prescription is missing, everyone present was prone to going astray.  What guarantee do you have that Imam Ali (ra) did not deviate and go astray?

Imam Ali (ra) never reclaimed Fadak.  Maybe that was his deviance.

Imam Ali (ra) named his children Abu Bakr and Umar.  Maybe that was him going astray.

I can make an entire madhhab from the conclusion of your claim but it will be as weak and unsubstantial as your madhhab.

I don't say anything. Facts clearly tell he's guilty.

And fact says everyone present were just as prone to deviating and going astray, including Imam Ali (ra), in the absence of the will.

[iceman]

No, I am drawing conclusions from your own premises and claims.

When you say that a will designed to prevent those present from deviating and going astray was not written down, one cannot help but imagine who actually went astray.  And that list includes Imam Ali (ra).  So the question is this: when making such claims, how do you defend your own first "infallible" Imam (ra)?

You cannot!  As we have seen your helplessness thus far.  So it is better you shut up.

It is exactly because I have a rational mind that I see a conclusion you cannot account for.  You want to make claims but not account for their consequences.  If the prescription is missing, everyone present was prone to going astray.  What guarantee do you have that Imam Ali (ra) did not deviate and go astray?

Imam Ali (ra) never reclaimed Fadak.  Maybe that was his deviance.

Imam Ali (ra) named his children Abu Bakr and Umar.  Maybe that was him going astray.

I can make an entire madhhab from the conclusion of your claim but it will be as weak and unsubstantial as your madhhab.

And fact says everyone present were just as prone to deviating and going astray, including Imam Ali (ra), in the absence of the will.

The Prophet s.a.w said, "fetch me a pen and paper that I may write something for you so you don't deviate" are you saying that the Prophet s.a.w was ill so he didn't know what he was talking about mazallah. By dragging Ali into this and moving attention from how Umar reacted and behaved doesn't solve anything. Neither does it help in protecting and saving Umar.

[muslim720]

The Prophet s.a.w said, "fetch me a pen and paper that I may write something for you so you don't deviate" are you saying that the Prophet s.a.w was ill so he didn't know what he was talking about mazallah. By dragging Ali into this and moving attention from how Umar reacted and behaved doesn't solve anything. Neither does it help in protecting and saving Umar.

By reinventing the wheel, you have made it clear that the Shi'i criticisms and allegations regarding the Hadith of Pen and Paper make Imam Ali (ra) look as bad as Shias make others out to be and Shias have no way to defend their own first "infallible" Imam (ra).

I suggest you revisit your beliefs and claims to make sure you come up with better, air-tight arguments.

[iceman]

By reinventing the wheel, you have made it clear that the Shi'i criticisms and allegations regarding the Hadith of Pen and Paper make Imam Ali (ra) look as bad as Shias make others out to be and Shias have no way to defend their own first "infallible" Imam (ra).

I suggest you revisit your beliefs and claims to make sure you come up with better, air-tight arguments.

Umar and those who sided with him are guilty and you know that. By twisting and turning this around here and there isn't going to make facts go away. It is what it is. Reality is reality.

[muslim720]

Umar and those who sided with him are guilty and you know that. By twisting and turning this around here and there isn't going to make facts go away. It is what it is. Reality is reality.

Well, your first "infallible" Imam (ra) stood by like a spectator and did not apply a single corrective course of action.  Maybe he agreed with Umar (ra).

In any case, Umar (ra) being guilty does not explain how Imam Ali (ra) could have been protected from going astray. 

I am accepting your claims and premises.  I don't know why you have a hard time accounting for the conclusions one can draw from them.  Or is it that you prefer to live in ignorance where your claims are the end, with no room for logical conclusions that follow.

[iceman]

Common example is quoted from verse 59:7 of the Quran.

"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment"

One needs to ask themselves that during the pen and paper incident were the companions (Umar and his clan) willing to take what the Prophet s.a.w was offering or about to offer. Honest and truthful answer NOOOO.

Surah 49,

"You who have faith,” having believed in Allāh and His Messenger, “Do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet,” blurting out words thoughtlessly, rather observe due propriety when speaking to him, and do not speak in a voice louder than his, else you will be guilty of violating proper conduct with him.

"and do not speak loudly to him,” in a way that would upset or irritate him, “as you do to one another”. Instead, speak calmly, with deliberation, restraint, solicitude, respect and love, falling silent when he speaks and deferring to him, “lest your actions come to nothing”

devoid of any reward “without your realising it” because you risk upsetting him. If you upset him, Allāh is angered and Allāh would render the deeds of those who anger Him void without their even knowing.

And what exactly did Umar and his clan do when the Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper. OOOPS!

[iceman]

And what exactly did Umar and his clan do when the Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper. OOOPS!

When the demise of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) drew near, there were people in his house, among whom was ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (Allāh be pleased with him). The Prophet said, “Come, I will write a document for you, after which you will not go astray. Thereupon Umar said, “Indeed, the Messenger of Allāh (peace and blessings be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Qur’an with you; the Book of Allah is sufficient for us.” Those who were present in the house differed: some of them said, “Bring (what the Prophet requested) so that he may write a document for you, after which you will never go astray,” whilst some supported the view of ‘Umar. When they caused a hue and cry in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), he said, “Go away.”

‘Ubayd Allah said, “Ibn Abbās (Allāh be pleased with him) used to say, ‘A great loss, indeed a great loss, that the Prophet was unable to write a document for them due to their dispute and noise.

The matter is simple and clear. But Umar loyalists will still be dishonest and untruthful with their own conscious and intention let alone others that they will do their best to twist and turn things backwards and forwards, upside down and inside out to desperately defend Umar and his clan by diverting attention.

It is what it is.

[iceman]

When a group of companions visited the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.), he (s.a.w.a.) ordered them:

آتُوْنِیْ بِدَوَاتٍ وَ قِرْطَاسٍ اِکْتُبُ لَکُمْ کِتَابًا لَنْ تَضِلُّوْا بَعْدَہ اَبَدًا

"Fetch me a pen and a paper so that I write a will for you so that you are not deviated after me.”

Umar said:

اِنَّ النَّبِیَّ غَلَبَہ الْوَجْعُ وَ عِنْدَکُمْ کِتَابُ اللهِ، حَسْبُنَا کِتَابُ اللهِ۔

“Surely the Prophet is overcome by illness (suggesting that his words should not be taken seriously).The Book of Allah is with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us!!!”

(Sahih Bukhari Chapter on Knowledge, v 22, Musnad-e-Ahmad b. Hanbal, Research of Ahmad Muhammad Shakir, trad 2,996, Tabaqaat of Ibn Saad v 2, p 244 Beirut Edition)

In Tabaqaat of Ibn Saad we find another narration which reveals that a person present in the assembly declared:

اِنَّ النَّبِیَّ اللهِ لِیَجْہَرَ

“The Prophet is speaking in delirium.”

(Tabaqaat of Ibn Saad v 2 p 242, Beirut Edition, Sahih Bukhari Chapter on جوائز الوفد from the Book of Jihad v 2 p 120, and the Chapter of Exodus of Jews form the Arabian Peninsula v 2 p 36 has these words

“The person who said this was the one who said that the Book of Allah is sufficient for us.” i.e. Umar

The Confession of Umar in Sunni Books

Umar himself has confessed about this lowly and shameful act. While describing the conditions of Umar, Abul Fazl Ahmad b. Abi Tahir in Taarikh Baghdad and Ibn Abil Hadid in Sharh-o-Nahjil Balaagha v 3 p 97 have documented:

On a particular day, there occurred a lengthy discussion between Umar and Ibn Abbas when Umar said:

“During the illness which led to his demise, Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) wished to put forward his (Imam Ali’s) name but we prevented him from doing so. Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) did not approve of this.”

At that time, some of those present urged:

“Obey the instructions of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.).”

After a heated debate some people intended to bring the pen and paper upon which the Prophet (s.a.w.a.) declared:

اَوْ بَعْدَ مَاذَا؟

“(Of what use is it) after this?”

(Tabaqaat of Ibn Saad v 2 p 242, Beirut Edition)

Even if a pen and paper had been provided as per the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) instructions and had he (s.a.w.a.) written a will nominating Imam Ali (a.s.) as his successor, Umar’s calculated remark placed the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) nomination under a shadow of uncertainty. To foil the nomination, all that the opponents of Imam Ali (a.s.) and Islam had to do was summon a group of cronies to testify that the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.) was speaking in delirium, Allah forbid!!

When voices rose in his presence and events took an ugly turn, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.) exclaimed:

قُوْمُوْا عَنِّیْ، لاَ یَنْبَغِیْ عِنْدَ نَبِیَّ تَنَازَعٌ۔
“Go away from me, it is not appropriate to quarrel in the presence of a Prophet.”

(Taarikh-o-Abi al-Fidaa, v. 1, p. 15)

In Sahih Bukhari in the Chapter on Book of Knowledge v 1 p 22, the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) annoyance is recorded with a slight variation:

قَالَ: قُوْمُوْا عَنِّیْ و لاَ یَنْبَغِیْ عِنْدِی التَّنَازَعُ

“Go away from me, it is not appropriate to argue in my presence.”

Any thoughts on the above gentlemen.

[muslim720]

Three back-to-back-to-back posts of desperation.  Not one to defend his "infallible" Imam (ra), lol.

[iceman]

Three back-to-back-to-back posts of desperation.  Not one to defend his "infallible" Imam (ra), lol.

😊😀😁😂 Who's desperate can be clearly seen. By the way your posts seem to be getting smaller and smaller. 😀 Signs of loosing ground 😅😂

[muslim720]

😊😀😁😂 Who's desperate can be clearly seen. By the way your posts seem to be getting smaller and smaller. 😀 Signs of loosing ground 😅😂

So it is true that you conflate quantity with quality?!  Just when I think you cannot get any more stupid!  Learn something new everyday.

As for keeping it precise, it is to get to account for one, JUST ONE, of the many points we raise against your claim. 

Here are all the points - in rebuttal to your claims - summarized:

1.  If Umar (ra) tried to prevent the will from being written down and open the doors for deviation, why did Imam Ali (ra) choose to be a spectator?  I remind you again, the Imam's only task is to guide (according to your madhhab).

2.  Why didn't the Holy Prophet (saw) not write the will in the following days at a time when Umar (ra) was not around?

3.  Of course this has to do with Wilayah, according to every Shia.  Why was there a need to have the will written down when Wilayah was conferred upon Imam Ali (ra) at Ghadeer?

4.  Why the dichotomy by Shaykh Mufid?

5.  How can Umar (ra), a mere fallible human being, overpower the Seal of the Prophets (saw) and your first "infallible" Imam (ra)?

6.  If the prescription to prevent Muslims (those present) from going astray was not written down, how can you prove that Imam Ali (ra) did not fall into deviation (in the absence of such crucial information)?  To do this, you have to ascertain what the Holy Prophet (saw) wanted to write down and we can see you don't even want to open your mouth, lol.

[iceman]

So it is true that you conflate quantity with quality?!  Just when I think you cannot get any more stupid!  Learn something new everyday.

As for keeping it precise, it is to get to account for one, JUST ONE, of the many points we raise against your claim. 

Here are all the points - in rebuttal to your claims - summarized:

1.  If Umar (ra) tried to prevent the will from being written down and open the doors for deviation, why did Imam Ali (ra) choose to be a spectator?  I remind you again, the Imam's only task is to guide (according to your madhhab).

2.  Why didn't the Holy Prophet (saw) not write the will in the following days at a time when Umar (ra) was not around?

3.  Of course this has to do with Wilayah, according to every Shia.  Why was there a need to have the will written down when Wilayah was conferred upon Imam Ali (ra) at Ghadeer?

4.  Why the dichotomy by Shaykh Mufid?

5.  How can Umar (ra), a mere fallible human being, overpower the Seal of the Prophets (saw) and your first "infallible" Imam (ra)?

6.  If the prescription to prevent Muslims (those present) from going astray was not written down, how can you prove that Imam Ali (ra) did not fall into deviation (in the absence of such crucial information)?  To do this, you have to ascertain what the Holy Prophet (saw) wanted to write down and we can see you don't even want to open your mouth, lol.

"If Umar (ra) tried to prevent the will from being written down and open the doors for deviation, why did Imam Ali (ra) choose to be a spectator?  I remind you again, the Imam's only task is to guide (according to your madhhab)"

Not "if Umar did" but "Umar actually did". There is a difference between the two. Lets sort this out first. I said to you before that don't jump on to this, that and the other with ifs and buts or 'lets say' or 'for instance'.

The Prophet s.a.w asked for a pen and paper. WHY? "That I may write something for you so you don't deviate or go astray after me". Simple and straightforward words on the Prophet s.a.w and not mine. Meaning that if this SOMETHING, this DOCUMENT, this PRESCRIPTION ain't written then it is absolutely obvious from the Prophet’s s.a.w words that the people will deviate, go astray.

Time out. Now previous nations of Prophets and Messengers also divided, deviated, went astray. But does this mean that every single individual was the cause of division or should be accused of deviation or going astray. According to your theology YES. But according to Allah NO. According to Allah less believed or remained on the right course and path. But most disbelieved or deviated or went astray.

Now going back to Umar, he objected and opposed. What did he say. Lets have a look again;

"Surely the Prophet is overcome by illness (suggesting that his words should not be taken seriously because of his illness).The Book of Allah is with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us!!!”

So was this just one man objecting and opposing to what the Prophet s.a.w had to offer. Lets take a look;

"Those who were present in the house differed: some of them said, “Bring (what the Prophet requested) so that he may write a document for you, after which you will never go astray,” whilst some supported the view of ‘Umar. When they caused a hue and cry in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), he said, “Go away.”

So this wasn't just about one person or just about a few. It was about many who sided with Umar. And the Prophet s.a.w was offering something based on a document to ones who fell into division over it. And if they or the people to whom the document or divine message is related to, aren't interested or fall into division over it,

which they did then Allah says "there is no compulsions within religion". The Message of Allah through Prophets and Messengers isn't by force but by will.  This is not your Caliphate which was forced on the people. And so was the governmental policies like, "hand over the Zakah money to us or you're subject to capital punishment".

[iceman]

"why did Imam Ali (ra) choose to be a spectator?  I remind you again, the Imam's only task is to guide (according to your madhhab)"

Ali did not choose to be a SPECTATOR. That's your opinion. According to the facts he was with those who insisted that the Prophet s.a.w should be given a pen and paper. And we should accept and take what he's about to offer. But there was push and shove from the other side. You know the rest.

"I remind you again, the Imam's only task is to guide (according to your madhhab)"

Yes, an Imam's job is to guide. Not by force. But by the will of the people. Just like the job of a Prophet and Messenger is to deliver the Message whether the people accept it or not. But not by force. Learn and understand what Imamah and Caliphate from Allah is before jumping up and down.

"Why didn't the Holy Prophet (saw) not write the will in the following days at a time when Umar (ra) was not around?"

Because it was for the people and it was to be done for them. And what better than notifying them and doing it in their presence. They didn't even accept that and objected and opposed it. When others called out that a pen and paper should be given to the Prophet s.a.w then they caused a fuss over it.

Now imagine if this was done in the absence of certain people, what makes you think then they would have happily accepted it. Come on man. Use your head. They would have come up with all sorts of excuses.

"Of course this has to do with Wilayah, according to every Shia.  Why was there a need to have the will written down when Wilayah was conferred upon Imam Ali (ra) at Ghadeer?"

Because it was done verbally at Ghadeer. And what is being said now was being said then during the Prophet's s.a.w final days, "well the Prophet s.a.w didn't mean this but he actually meant that, the word Mawla doesn't mean this or the Prophet s.a.w didn't mean this by it but he actually meant that or the Prophet s.a.w meant that by it". This propaganda campaign was on full scale during the Prophet's s.a.w final days.

Why do you think all of a sudden and out of the blue the Prophet s.a.w asked for a pen and paper. What was the need for it when the Qur'an and Sunnah were there, Islam was completed, favours were full filled and Islam was fully and finally chosen. What exactly did the Prophet s.a.w see and notice that he all of a sudden and out of the blue asked for a pen and paper.

[iceman]

"Why the dichotomy by Shaykh Mufid?"

Are you telling me that that's exactly the thought and opinion of Shaykh Mufid. What ever a writer/author puts in his book is exactly their thought and opinion, is this your belief. And lets say that it is his opinion then that's his business. Why is that his opinion and what is the reason behind it is his business. And one shouldn't force the opinion of one or some on to others or paint a picture of the entire community just on that.

"How can Umar (ra), a mere fallible human being, overpower the Seal of the Prophets (saw) and your first "infallible" Imam (ra)?"

It wasn't just Umar but others sided with him. So it was a clear division among the people who were present at the time. Something was brewing during the final days of the Prophet s.a.w.

Just as people over powered other Prophets and Messengers in the past and even some were killed by the people. Just as Satan is over powering everyone according to your theology.

"how can you prove that Imam Ali (ra) did not fall into deviation (in the absence of such crucial information)?"

The verse of Tat'heer and the incident of the blanket and the verse and incident of Mubahila are clear proofs of Ali's PURIFICATION and RIGHTEOUSNESS. And if you have any claims of Ali deviating or going astray then lets hear them. That's how we can prove about Ali.

I have answered all your questions and addressed all your points. YOU AND THE OTHERS DON'T!

[iceman]

Lets go by the theory of Muslim 720,

'And when it is said to them (the Jews), "Believe in what Allah has sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us." And they disbelieve in that which came after it, while it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Why then have you killed the Prophets of Allah aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?"  2:91

"Verily! Those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and kill the Prophets without right, and kill those men who order just dealings, ... announce to them a painful torment" 3:21

According to the theory of Muslim 720 the Jews over powered Allah by killing Prophets. Can you explain yourself or your theory.

Allaah informed us in the Quran that the Jews used to kill the Prophets. Allah Says;

:But is it not that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed"

[Quran 2:87] Allaah also Says;

"That was because they [repeatedly] disbelieved in the signs of Allah and killed the prophets without right. That was because they disobeyed and were habitually transgressing"

[Quran 2:61]

So Muslim 720, according to your theory the Jews over powered Allah and his Prophets by repeatedly disbelieving in the signs of Allah and by killing Prophets. It's time to explain yourself or flush your theory of people over powering divine guides (Imams).

[muslim720]

Not "if Umar did" but "Umar actually did". There is a difference between the two. Lets sort this out first. I said to you before that don't jump on to this, that and the other with ifs and buts or 'lets say' or 'for instance'.

Fine, Umar (ra) actually did it, that is, he prevented the will from being dictated.  In that case, you must admit that one fallible (Umar) was able to subdue the Seal of the Prophets (saw) and your first "infallible" Imam (ra).

Meaning that if this SOMETHING, this DOCUMENT, this PRESCRIPTION ain't written then it is absolutely obvious from the Prophet’s s.a.w words that the people will deviate, go astray.

Exactly my point!  In the absence of this will, prescription or document, how can you guarantee your own salvation?  How can you ascertain that even those present, including Imam Ali (ra), did not deviate?

Hint: this post is specifically designed to show you (though I doubt it will register in your head) that if we go by your claims, you are only undoing your own beliefs.  Continue reading!

Time out. Now previous nations of Prophets and Messengers also divided, deviated, went astray.

Out of gas?  Take your time-out!  We are not talking about previous nations; we are talking about those present in the room.  You claimed over and over again that this prescription was for them and present among them was Imam Ali (ra).

As for nations of the past deviating, the message was completed with the coming of the Holy Prophet (saw) and the final message was delivered to his Ummah so bringing up nations of the past is like a comparison of apples and oranges

So this wasn't just about one person or just about a few. It was about many who sided with Umar. And the Prophet s.a.w was offering something based on a document to ones who fell into division over it.

The Holy Prophet (saw) had three days after this incident to narrate what he intended to have dictated.  He did not!  Also, Imam Ali (ra) did not facilitate this request, neither on Thursday nor in the three days thereafter.

According to the theory of Muslim 720 the Jews over powered Allah by killing Prophets. Can you explain yourself or your theory

According to Islamic beliefs, a Prophet (asws) is an infallible being; infallible in delivering the message but prone to all the illnesses and evil that afflicts any man.  The Shi'i concept of Imamah, on the other hand, confers absolute infallibility upon certain individuals who are in control of the atoms and universe.  When individuals with such alleged superpowers are subdued, one cannot help but use the word "overpower". 

Yes, an Imam's job is to guide. Not by force. But by the will of the people.

To guide someone, you must make your message known.  In the case of this event, Imam Ali (ra) did not speak a word, let alone move a muscle.  Furthermore, I did not know that you consider an Imam's (ra) guidance contingent upon the will of people.  If I may recall, you are not a big fan of Saqeefah where it was the will of the believers for Abu Bakr (ra) to become the Caliph.

Where it suits you, it is the will of the people (to explain away your Imam's helplessness or lack of corrective course of action).  Otherwise, it is all "Divinely Ordained".  Pathetic!

And lets say that it is his opinion then that's his business.

I am willing to accept that this was Shaykh Mufid's opinion, contrary to mainstream Shi'i belief.  The problem is not just his opinion; the bigger problem is the need to ascertain the message of the prescription in such a haste that it undoes other core Shi'i beliefs.

It wasn't just Umar but others sided with him. So it was a clear division among the people who were present at the time. Something was brewing during the final days of the Prophet s.a.w.

So was Imam Ali (ra)!  He did not oppose Umar's (ra) decision.  At best, he was neutral so it is funny to see you, and the rest of Shias, take a stance when your first "infallible" Imam (ra) adopted the role of a spectator.

The verse of Tat'heer and the incident of the blanket and the verse and incident of Mubahila are clear proofs of Ali's PURIFICATION and RIGHTEOUSNESS

The verse of Tat'heer was for the Wives (ra) of the Prophet (saw), the incident of blanket (in reaction to the revelation of verse of Tat'heer) is no proof of infallibility and the incident of Mubahala has no relation to infallibility.

If you still insist on this point, you have to declare the infallibility of the Mothers of Believers (ra) as well.

I have answered all your questions and addressed all your points. YOU AND THE OTHERS DON'T!

You have only given us further insight of what an idiot you are!  If you want to conflate that with answering my points, suit yourself!