[Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

If you read the chains of most of your hadeeth then the chains are like. ....Zurarah-  Baqir - Prophet.

Or ...Zurarah-  Jafar - Prophet.
etc.

They were born decades after Prophet(saws).

Whenever a narration stops at an Imam, one is to assume the chain goes from his father to his father...to Ali to Prophet.

That's a myth, you will find many reports of Imams to be mawqoof of Imams, which the context apparently shows.

Moreover,  I would like to bring another evidence exposing the poor and sectarain science of transmission of Shias, which would give a shock to any objective reader.

It appears that the Imams from Ahlul-Bayt narrate from quite a good number of teachers, most of which are venerable, reliable and popular scholars, this shows that they took their knowledge from the purest of sources. However, in the books of the Shia the chains appear to be missing the names of their teachers; we give some examples below to illustrate this matter and clarify what we mean.

Example #1:

In the books of Ahlul-Sunnah, Sunan al-Nasa’i al-Kubra 2/308:

أَخْبَرَنَا عُتْبَةُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قال: أَنْبَأَنَا ابْنُ الْمُبَارَكِ، عَنْ سُفْيَانَ، عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قال: كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ  يَقُولُ فِي خُطْبَتِهِ يَحْمَدُ اللَّهَ وَيُثْنِي عَلَيْهِ بِمَا هُوَ أَهْلُهُ، ثُمَّ يَقُولُ: ” مَنْ يَهْدِهِ اللَّهُ فَلَا مُضِلَّ لَهُ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلْهُ فَلَا هَادِيَ لَهُ، إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ، وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْيِ هَدْيُ مُحَمَّدٍ، وَشَرُّ الْأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا، وَكُلُّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلُّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلَالَةٌ وَكُلُّ ضَلَالَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

[`Utbah bin `Abdullah told us, he said: Ibn al-Mubarak had told us, from Sufiyan, from Ja`far bin Muhammad, from his father, from Jabir ibn `Abdullah, he said: “Rasul-Allah (saw) used to say in his sermon (until he said) every invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a misguidance, and every misguidance is in the fire.”]

Whereas in the books of the Shia, Al-Kafi 1/56:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحَكَمِ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أَبَانٍ الْكَلْبِيِّ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحِيمِ الْقَصِيرِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) كُلُّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلَالَة وَ كُلُّ ضَلَالَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

[Some of our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Isa, from `Ali bin al-Hakam, from `Umar bin Abban al-Kabli, from `Abdul-Rahim al-Qasir, from abu `Abdillah (as), he said: Rasul-Allah (saw) said: “Every innovation is a misguidance and every misguidance is in the fire.”]

Comment: As we can see, the name of Abu Abdillah’s father Muhammad who narrates from Jabir al-Ansari have been crossed out.

Example #2:

In the books of Ahlul-Sunnah, Sunan al-Nasa’i al-Kubra 6/180:

أَخْبَرَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ مَنْصُورٍ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الصَّمَدِ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا حَرْبٌ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي يَحْيَى، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ عُمَرَو، أَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا وَهُوَ ابْنُ عَلِيِّ بْنِ حُسَيْنِ ابْنِ فَاطِمَةَ بِنْتِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ حَدَّثَهُ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيِّبِ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ  قَالَ: ” مَثَلُ الَّذِي يَتَصَدَّقُ بِالصَّدَقَةِ، ثُمَّ يَرْجِعُ فِيهَا، كَمَثَلِ الْكَلْبِ، قَاءَ، ثُمَّ عَادَ فِي قَيْئِهِ، فَأَكَلَهُ

[Ishaq bin Mansour told us, he said: `Abdul-Samad told us, he said: Harb told us, he said: Yahya told me, he said: `Abdul-Rahman bin `Amro told me, that he was told by Muhammad the son of `Ali bin Husayn bin Fatimah bint Rasul-Allah (saw), from Sa`eed bin al-Musayyib, from `Abdullah ibn `Abbas, that the Prophet (saw) said: “The example of one who offers charity then takes it back, is like a dog who vomits then swallows his own vomit.”]

Whereas in the books of the Shia, Tahdheeb al-Ahkam 9/155:

عنه عن ابن أبي عمير عن حماد عن الحلبي عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: إنما مثل الذي يرجع في صدقته كالذي يرجع في قيئه

[From him (Husayn bin Sa`eed), from ibn abi `Umar, from Hammad, from al-Halabi, from abi `Abdillah (saw), he said: Rasul-Allah (saw) said: “The example of one who takes back his charity is like one who swallows his vomit.”]

Comment: Even in this examplee, there is no mention about Abi Abdillah’s(as) father narrating it from ibn al-Musayyib from ibn `Abbas, this was all removed.

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/smashing-the-myth-of-taking-ahlul-bayt-as-the-only-conveyors-of-islamic-knowledge/

We put our trust in Allah who praised Sahaba in Quran. Infact Your Imam himself put the trust in Sahaba, regarding the authentic hadeeth of al-Kafi. The problem is your ignorance.

We respect plenty of sahaba. Only criteria we have is those sahaba stayed loyal to AhlulBayt. You guys are naive enough to think all sahaba were perfect and could do no wrong. We call it like it is.

You people are ignorant of Sunni views, that's the problem. Sunnis follow Quran and Quran wipes out perfection for anyone apart from Prophet(saws). No one is perfect after Prophet(saws), but people can be righteous and trustworthy. Hence we believe Sahaba were righteous and trustworthy but they weren't perfect or infallible, including Ahlelbayt.

And why are you hiding away from the main problem i raised, which is that the reports from Ahlulbayt in Sunni books conflict with reports from Ahlulbayt in Shia books. So the problem is not in Sahaba. The problem lies in the narrators.

Problem is narrators for sure and also some sahaba like Abu Huraira.

Exactly, that's why Sunnis scholars accuse Shias for not paying proper efforts towards gathering sufficient information regarding Shia narrators. Your Scholars have done a hopeless and extremely poor job. And this is the root cause of your deviance. Infact if you set the conditions matcing the sophisticated Sunni hadeeth science then barely, 1% of your all hadeeths could pass the test of authentcity. But you guys would never care for that. And this negligence and careless is one of the major causes of disunity.

I repeat:
you claim your Imams were under taqiyyah during their lives, which technically makes their reports unreliable, unless supported by a source which was from a time without Taqiyyah.

When did I ever claim the Imams were in taqiyyah. The Imams advised their followers to observe taqiyyah to avoid persecution but they never did. If so, they would not have been poisoned or put to the sword, etc.

Your Scholars claim so, I know you are ignorant about your own beliefs, which is apparent from your answers, but this is something quote common which even lay Shias know about. Are you saying that your Imams never did Taqiyyah?

[ShiaMan]

I am sorry to say this but you guys really are some of the dumbest people I have come across. I actually feel sorry for you.

Whenever a narration stops at an Imam, one is to assume the chain goes from his father to his father...to Ali to Prophet.

That's a myth, you will find many reports of Imams to be mawqoof of Imams, which the context apparently shows.

If a narration is attributed to the Prophet and it comes from an Imam, then it can be traced or assumed to be from the imam to the previous to the previous...to the Prophet.
However, this does not mean the Imams never spoke on their own. We dont say Nahjul Balagha is everything Imam Ali heard from the Prophet.

Seriously, how dumb can you be? And I dont mean to sound rude or offensive. We are really having Grade 1 type discussions here.

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/smashing-the-myth-of-taking-ahlul-bayt-as-the-only-conveyors-of-islamic-knowledge/

Let me bust the myth for you too. We take our ahadith from the Ahlulbayt and all sahaba who loved the Prophet and his AhlulBayt. Where did this "only" business come into the picture?

[MuslimK]

Let me bust the myth for you too. We take our ahadith from the Ahlulbayt and all sahaba who loved the Prophet and his AhlulBayt. Where did this "only" business come into the picture?

Not really. Your sect doesn't even take from all Ahlulbayt, not even from all the 12 person you claim to follow. Over 95% of your narrations are attributed to only two of your supposed Imams.

As for your sect taking narration from Sahaba then it is not true. After all they were fallible people; no need for them while infallible were there. If you were asked to provide 1-2 narration from Abu Dhar who narrates from Prophet (saw) with authentic chain from your books you would struggle. The only reason you like some Sahaba (or those whom you call 'good sahaba') is because they, according to your sect, sided with Ali (politically, fought on his side etc), other than that they are nobody and useless in your sect when it comes taking the religion from them. If You want to learn something about Sahaba, their lives, teachings and fatawa then look into the sources of Ahlu Sunnah.

[MuslimK]

If a narration is attributed to the Prophet and it comes from an Imam, then it can be traced or assumed to be from the imam to the previous to the previous...to the Prophet.

However, this does not mean the Imams never spoke on their own. We dont say Nahjul Balagha is everything Imam Ali heard from the Prophet.

Almost all of the occasions 'your' (mainly two) Imams spoke on their own.  Iinfact, only rarely you find that they attribute a narration to the Prophet (saw).

[ShiaMan]

Not really. Your sect doesn't even take from all Ahlulbayt, not even from all the 12 person you claim to follow. Over 95% of your narrations are attributed to only two of your supposed Imams.

As for your sect taking narration from Sahaba then it is not true. After all they were fallible people; no need for them while infallible were there. If you were asked to provide 1-2 narration from Abu Dhar who narrates from Prophet (saw) with authentic chain from your books you would struggle. The only reason you like some Sahaba (or those whom you call 'good sahaba') is because they, according to your sect, sided with Ali (politically, fought on his side etc), other than that they are nobody and useless in your sect when it comes taking the religion from them. If You want to learn something about Sahaba, their lives, teachings and fatawa then look into the sources of Ahlu Sunnah.

I said something similar about how Sahih Bukhari has more narrations from Abu Huraira than anyone else and I got some excuse about why it was so. In my haste, I am going to say whatever excuse was presented to me about why Bukhari chose Abu Huraira more than Imam Ali and/or others, INSERT SAID EXCUSE HERE.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

I am sorry to say this but you guys really are some of the dumbest people I have come across. I actually feel sorry for you.

Truth hurts, I can see that.

Whenever a narration stops at an Imam, one is to assume the chain goes from his father to his father...to Ali to Prophet.

That's a myth, you will find many reports of Imams to be mawqoof of Imams, which the context apparently shows.

If a narration is attributed to the Prophet and it comes from an Imam, then it can be traced or assumed to be from the imam to the previous to the previous...to the Prophet.
However, this does not mean the Imams never spoke on their own. We dont say Nahjul Balagha is everything Imam Ali heard from the Prophet.

Now you are acting stupid to overcome the humiliation caused by the exposition of this myth. I gave you two examples exposing the reality about this myth, the fact is that your imams took knowledge from several teachers who were non-ahlulbayt. Hence its irrational and unacademic to say that the hadeeth of imam is via their fathers till Prophet.

Seriously, how dumb can you be? And I dont mean to sound rude or offensive. We are really having Grade 1 type discussions here.

You are being stupid, and the reason behind it is ignorance and lack of understanding. And what can we do when you can bring arguments beyond this level.

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/smashing-the-myth-of-taking-ahlul-bayt-as-the-only-conveyors-of-islamic-knowledge/

Let me bust the myth for you too. We take our ahadith from the Ahlulbayt and all sahaba who loved the Prophet and his AhlulBayt. Where did this "only" business come into the picture?

LOL, where is exception about those Sahaba who loved Prophet and Ahlulbayt? Seems you busted your ownself.

Post#13

not denying the need to follow sunnah. The question is whether the Sunnah of Muhammad (saw) is coming to you via others or AhlulBayt.

post#15

As long as we are in agreement that your sunnah comes from the Sahaba and ours comes from the AhlulBayt. Just curious why no sahaba were taken to Mubahila.

I suppose in true sahaba tradition Muslims are destined to fight with each other.

So eventually our Shia friend agrees that, Sunnis are right in taking deen from Sahaba, who loved Prophet(saws) and his Ahlulbayt. Congrats Sunnis.

[Ibn Yahya]

Hold on akhi Fahad. How can you be insulting Sahabis like Mu'awiyah and commenting on such complex issues acting like an educated person and trying to introduce unorthodox views into the creed of Ahlus sunnah when you don't even know the origins of the name Ahlus Sunnah

[muslim720]

As long as we are in agreement that your sunnah comes from the Sahaba and ours comes from the AhlulBayt.  Just curious why no sahaba were taken to Mubahila.

Were the Ahlul Bayt [ra] not Sahaba [ra]?  Oh right, you regurgitated what was thrown at you from the pulpits.  Allow me to explain and I hope this comes as a shock because this whole Sahaba versus Ahlul Bayt is a figment of Shia imagination; two pictures that can never be superimposed in the minds of the Shias when in reality they are one image.

A Sahabi is one who became Muslim, met the Prophet [saw] and died upon Islam.  Three things: became a Muslim, had enjoyed the company of the Prophet [saw] (even for a short period of time) and died Muslim (never went back on Islam or became apostate).  Imam Ali [ra] fits that definition, so does Fatima [ra] and Imam Hassan [ra] and Imam Hussain [ra].  So to answer your question, the Prophet [saw] only took sahaba to mubahala.

Allow me to add one last tidbit.  The virtues of the four I just named (peace be upon them and may Allah be pleased with them) are two-fold.  They are sahabi (by definition) and Ahlul Bayt [ra] (by Prophetic declaration).

I suppose in true sahaba tradition Muslims are destined to fight with each other.

The portion of your trousers or pants (boxers more closely) that sit against your rear-end (buttocks) has a word for it in Dari.  We (Afghans) call that portion "kheshtak".  Generally, the kheshtak coexists peacefully with our bodies but to highlight the venom of some - those that cannot help but cause problems and create rifts in the most peaceful situations among the most easily coexisting (friendly) people - we have a saying which goes, "fulaan (insert name) can start a fight between kheshtak and buttocks". 

I am sure the person who invented that saying was thinking of Shias because only Shias can come up with, and entertain, feuds and rivalries between two peacefully coexisting groups that had nothing but love and admiration for each other.

[Ibn Yahya]

I am sorry to say this but you guys really are some of the dumbest people I have come across. I actually feel sorry for you.

Immature likkle mout a massy tinky boy. If you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say it.

If a narration is attributed to the Prophet and it comes from an Imam, then it can be traced or assumed to be from the imam to the previous to the previous...to the Prophet.
However, this does not mean the Imams never spoke on their own. We dont say Nahjul Balagha is everything Imam Ali heard from the Prophet.

And? Why don't they just say "from my father" or "my grandfather Rasul Allaah said" like they do on some Ahadith? If they feel the need to mention it those times it implies that it is not the status quo.

Secondly that is no different to Catholics who claim their religionis inherited from the Apostles and therefore Jesus because they passed everything down over the generations to the early christian bishops and priests all the way through to the modern day. Same with the Naqshbandis who claim that they have a golden chain (also incidentally including some of your imams) going back to Rasul Allah which justifies their practises.

We don't accept such excuses from them so why should we accept them from you. No. Give us a reason to accept them.

Seriously, how dumb can you be? And I dont mean to sound rude or offensive. We are really having Grade 1 type discussions here.

how dumb can you be to blindly follow this garbage? How can you be that naive? You can't use rude or offensive language and then claim not to be rude or offensive. If you're going to talk crud then don't be a wussy and try to back track. At least be honest.

Let me bust the myth for you too. We take our ahadith from the Ahlulbayt and all sahaba who loved the Prophet and his AhlulBayt. Where did this "only" business come into the picture?

You take your Ahadith from maybe 3-4 Sahabis as according to al-Kafi only 3 or 4 didn't apostate. Which is such a small number (less than 1% of Sahabis) tgay stastically is it even worth mentioning? No. More Shi'i polemics and excuses for their fanatic takfiri ideals.

[ShiaMan]

Now you are acting stupid to overcome the humiliation caused by the exposition of this myth. I gave you two examples exposing the reality about this myth, the fact is that your imams took knowledge from several teachers who were non-ahlulbayt. Hence its irrational and unacademic to say that the hadeeth of imam is via their fathers till Prophet.

Your examples were moronic. Do you honestly think that for the entire lives of the Imams, all they did was re-quote the Prophet and nothing else? If the chain of any narration goes to the Prophet from an Imam, then it is safe to assume that it went from Imam to previous Imam --> Prophet.

LOL, where is exception about those Sahaba who loved Prophet and Ahlulbayt? Seems you busted your ownself.

You mean the list - Salman, Abu Dharr, Bilal, Ammar for starters.

So eventually our Shia friend agrees that, Sunnis are right in taking deen from Sahaba, who loved Prophet(saws) and his Ahlulbayt. Congrats Sunnis.

Yes congrats. You take your deen from sahaba and not from the Prophet & AhlulBayt. Good luck with this. Didnt Caliph Uthman ban umra and hajj at the same time?

Were the Ahlul Bayt [ra] not Sahaba [ra]?  Oh right, you regurgitated what was thrown at you from the pulpits.  Allow me to explain and I hope this comes as a shock because this whole Sahaba versus Ahlul Bayt is a figment of Shia imagination; two pictures that can never be superimposed in the minds of the Shias when in reality they are one image.

A Sahabi is one who became Muslim, met the Prophet [saw] and died upon Islam.  Three things: became a Muslim, had enjoyed the company of the Prophet [saw] (even for a short period of time) and died Muslim (never went back on Islam or became apostate).  Imam Ali [ra] fits that definition, so does Fatima [ra] and Imam Hassan [ra] and Imam Hussain [ra].  So to answer your question, the Prophet [saw] only took sahaba to mubahala.

Allow me to add one last tidbit.  The virtues of the four I just named (peace be upon them and may Allah be pleased with them) are two-fold.  They are sahabi (by definition) and Ahlul Bayt [ra] (by Prophetic declaration).

While the AhlulBayt can be deemed sahaba, not all sahaba can be called AhlulBayt. Hence the need for differentiation. Since being of the AhlulBayt is the higher category, that is what we refer too. But thanks for trying.

The portion of your trousers or pants (boxers more closely) that sit against your rear-end (buttocks) has a word for it in Dari.  We (Afghans) call that portion "kheshtak".  Generally, the kheshtak coexists peacefully with our bodies but to highlight the venom of some - those that cannot help but cause problems and create rifts in the most peaceful situations among the most easily coexisting (friendly) people - we have a saying which goes, "fulaan (insert name) can start a fight between kheshtak and buttocks". 

I am sure the person who invented that saying was thinking of Shias because only Shias can come up with, and entertain, feuds and rivalries between two peacefully coexisting groups that had nothing but love and admiration for each other.

And there it is. The Afghan fascination with men's buttocks. How many boys have you raped. I saw Kite Runner. I know what you do to little helpless boys.
Peaceful coexisting groups apart from Jamal and Siffin of course.

You take your Ahadith from maybe 3-4 Sahabis as according to al-Kafi only 3 or 4 didn't apostate. Which is such a small number (less than 1% of Sahabis) tgay stastically is it even worth mentioning? No. More Shi'i polemics and excuses for their fanatic takfiri ideals.

yes. What is your point?

Secondly that is no different to Catholics who claim their religionis inherited from the Apostles and therefore Jesus because they passed everything down over the generations to the early christian bishops and priests all the way through to the modern day. Same with the Naqshbandis who claim that they have a golden chain (also incidentally including some of your imams) going back to Rasul Allah which justifies their practises.

We don't accept such excuses from them so why should we accept them from you. No. Give us a reason to accept them.

Why is it okay for you to take your Sunnah from the sahaba but not okay for the shia to take ours from the AhlulBayt?

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Now you are acting stupid to overcome the humiliation caused by the exposition of this myth. I gave you two examples exposing the reality about this myth, the fact is that your imams took knowledge from several teachers who were non-ahlulbayt. Hence its irrational and unacademic to say that the hadeeth of imam is via their fathers till Prophet.

Your examples were moronic. Do you honestly think that for the entire lives of the Imams, all they did was re-quote the Prophet and nothing else? If the chain of any narration goes to the Prophet from an Imam, then it is safe to assume that it went from Imam to previous Imam --> Prophet.

Infact your beliefs are moronic. Beliefs are based on practical and realistic evidences, not assumptions. I gave you realistic examples, showing your Imams reported ahadeeth from non-Ahlulbayt.

LOL, where is exception about those Sahaba who loved Prophet and Ahlulbayt? Seems you busted your ownself.

You mean the list - Salman, Abu Dharr, Bilal, Ammar for starters.

It's better you keep your face hidden under the sand, since your foolish responses reveal your the stupidity of your initial claims which i re-quoted, and they didn't had any mention of Sahaba.

So eventually our Shia friend agrees that, Sunnis are right in taking deen from Sahaba, who loved Prophet(saws) and his Ahlulbayt. Congrats Sunnis.

Yes congrats. You take your deen from sahaba and not from the Prophet & AhlulBayt. Good luck with this. Didnt Caliph Uthman ban umra and hajj at the same time?

Again, repeating the same stupid argument. Our Sahaba contains Ahlulbayt as well, and we are Ahlus-sunnah, the people upon Sunnah of prophet(saws). Ironically, Sunnis perform Umrah and Hajj at same time, and you morons claim we blindly follow Sahaba. Stupidity at its peak.

Btw, Didn't Ali punish people by burning them?

[ShiaMan]

Again, repeating the same stupid argument. Our Sahaba contains Ahlulbayt as well, and we are Ahlus-sunnah, the people upon Sunnah of prophet(saws). Ironically, Sunnis perform Umrah and Hajj at same time, and you morons claim we blindly follow Sahaba. Stupidity at its peak.

Btw, Didn't Ali punish people by burning them?

Oh so you follow all sahaba except for Caliph Uthman. Thanks for the clarification.
Question: Are all sahaba created equal?
Surely you realize that there are various category of sahaba
Badriyans --> Kibaar --> Tulaqa.
The AhlulBayt were above all of them.