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11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.

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Farid

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2017, 08:13:09 PM »
Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Hisham b. Salim from Jabir b. Yazeed al-Ju`fi from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said:

A question was asked about the Qa’im عليه السلام, so he tapped Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام with his hand. Then, he said: This, by Allah, is a Qa’im of the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله.

Anbasa said: So when Abu Ja`far عليه السلام had passed away, I entered upon Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام and I informed him of that. So he said: Jabir told the truth. He then said: Lest you think that every Imam [that comes] after the preceding Imam is not the Qa’im. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 789)

(sahih) (صحيح)

Sahih hadith proving the designation Imam Al-Sadiq (as) as the Imam. Therefore this proves the hujjiyah of the words of Imam Al-Sadiq (as) in the previous narrations.

Translation was done by the imamiyya website.

Al Baqir's imamate is not established, and therefore he cannot appoint an Imam.

Your hadith about Al Khidr is another case of reverse wasiyyah. Al Jawad never met Al Kathim let alone Ali bin Abi Talib. He cannot appoint himself and his fathers as Imams. This is not a hujjah on anyone.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 08:14:31 PM by Farid »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2017, 08:55:35 PM »
Wow, the discussing is killing. I never thought that it would so hard and difficult for Shias to prove the Imamah of their Imams from their own books.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2017, 08:56:31 PM »
Sahih hadith proving the Imams (as) are twelve:

Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه from him from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim1 from al-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. `Ali from his father `Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. `Ali عليه السلام.

He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوات اللّه عليه was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s صلى الله عليه وآله words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. Who, then, are the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen)

(sahih) (صحيح)

Hadith goes all the way up to Ameer Al-Mu'mineen (as).
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2017, 08:58:00 PM »
Wow, the discussing is killing. I never thought that it would so hard and difficult for Shias to prove the Imamah of their Imams from their own books.

Unlike you guys, many of our books are not translated online. I could simply quote Arabic hadiths but it wouldn't be good for the non-Arab speakers.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2017, 09:07:39 PM »
Wow, the discussing is killing. I never thought that it would so hard and difficult for Shias to prove the Imamah of their Imams from their own books.

Unlike you guys, many of our books are not translated online. I could simply quote Arabic hadiths but it wouldn't be good for the non-Arab speakers.

No issue bro please go ahead. Post those arabic ahadeeth. We want you to establish Hujjah on Farid, and this guy Farid knows Arabic. So aim him, its a good opportunity for you.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2017, 09:35:25 PM »
The hadith I just posted pretty much confirmed Ithna Ashariyya.

1) Ali, Hasan and Husayn, may Allah send blessings upon them, are Imams as per the tafsir of Imam Ali (as) of the famous hadith of the Prophet of Allah (saww).

2) The Imamah is from the progeny of Al-Husayn (as). This would falsify any claim of any sect which believes in an "Imam" who is not of the progeny of Al-Husayn (as).

3) The Imams are twelve, this means that any group which cut off before twelve Imams is a false sect.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2017, 09:44:03 PM »
More:

Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Abu’l Jarud from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام from Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari.

He said: I entered upon Fatima عليها السلام and in her hands was a tablet with the names of the deputies (awsiya’) from her descendants. I counted twelve [in total], the last of whom was the Qa’im عليه السلام. Three of them [from her children] were Muhammad, and three of them were `Ali. (al-Kafi)

(muwathaq) (موثق)
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Farid

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2017, 09:58:39 PM »
Quote
Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه from him from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim1 from al-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. `Ali from his father `Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. `Ali عليه السلام.

He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوات اللّه عليه was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s صلى الله عليه وآله words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. Who, then, are the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen)

(sahih) (صحيح)

Hadith goes all the way up to Ameer Al-Mu'mineen (as).

Why do you keep providing evidences with this kaffir in the chain?

Quote
Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Abu’l Jarud from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام from Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari.

He said: I entered upon Fatima عليها السلام and in her hands was a tablet with the names of the deputies (awsiya’) from her descendants. I counted twelve [in total], the last of whom was the Qa’im عليه السلام. Three of them [from her children] were Muhammad, and three of them were `Ali. (al-Kafi)

(muwathaq) (موثق)

You shouldn't believe this fabrication.

Read my article. Shias had no idea that the Imams would be twelve nor did they know their names.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/02/11/understanding-imamate-early-shia-society/

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2017, 12:01:50 AM »
Quote
Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه from him from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim1 from al-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. `Ali from his father `Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. `Ali عليه السلام.

He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوات اللّه عليه was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s صلى الله عليه وآله words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. Who, then, are the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen)

(sahih) (صحيح)

Hadith goes all the way up to Ameer Al-Mu'mineen (as).

Why do you keep providing evidences with this kaffir in the chain?

Quote
Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Abu’l Jarud from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام from Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari.

He said: I entered upon Fatima عليها السلام and in her hands was a tablet with the names of the deputies (awsiya’) from her descendants. I counted twelve [in total], the last of whom was the Qa’im عليه السلام. Three of them [from her children] were Muhammad, and three of them were `Ali. (al-Kafi)

(muwathaq) (موثق)

You shouldn't believe this fabrication.

Read my article. Shias had no idea that the Imams would be twelve nor did they know their names.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/02/11/understanding-imamate-early-shia-society/

He is not a kafir he is more mu'min than any mukhalif Nasibite shaykh especially Ibn TimTam. Please don't insult my scholars and I won't insult yours.

The purpose of what I am doing is proving tashayyu and the Twelve Imams is available in authentic narrations in Shi'i books as I already told you I cannot bring a hujjah upon you. The hadith I brought forth is sahih as per Shi'i standards, and Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) - to us - is a brilliant and knowledgable man who our scholars of rijal praised, and by the way, for you it shouldn't matter whether Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is in the chain or not to you all the hadiths I quoted are weak anyway. In fact you think Al-Kulayni believed in tahreef, so what is the use of quoting Al-Kafi at all?


As for the hadith of Jabir, it is possible that this was not widely reported or known and the Imam (as) told this to one or two companions.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Farid

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2017, 01:14:39 AM »

Quote
The hadith I brought forth is sahih as per Shi'i standards, and Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) - to us - is a brilliant and knowledgable man who our scholars of rijal praised

Why do you even refer to him as brilliant? Is the proof of his brilliance that he wrote a tafseer of kufr? Or is the proof of his brilliance that he quoted his father, heck, 95% of his reports are from his father. Ali bin Ibrahim, who you take half your religion from, is a nobody. Al Tusi himself never even made tawtheeq of the man. The only reason you trust him is because Al Najashi made tawtheeq of him, concluding that he wrote a tafseer and is Saheeh Al I'itiqaad.

Subhanallah!

Don't let me even start with Ibrahim bin Hashim Al Kaththab, who heard 20,000 hadiths in a majlis but didn't narrate any of it.

Your trust is misplaced.

If you read the article that I linked you to, which is based on authentic hadiths only, you will realize how ambigious the Imamah was. The Imams never appointed the next Imam until before their deaths. Even the narration you posted about Al Khidr was doubted by Mohammad bin Yahya Al Attar.

Again, you have misplaced your trust on people with one-line biographies.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 01:19:40 AM by Farid »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2017, 01:37:35 AM »

Quote
The hadith I brought forth is sahih as per Shi'i standards, and Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) - to us - is a brilliant and knowledgable man who our scholars of rijal praised

Why do you even refer to him as brilliant? Is the proof of his brilliance that he wrote a tafseer of kufr? Or is the proof of his brilliance that he quoted his father, heck, 95% of his reports are from his father. Ali bin Ibrahim, who you take half your religion from, is a nobody. Al Tusi himself never even made tawtheeq of the man. The only reason you trust him is because Al Najashi made tawtheeq of him, concluding that he wrote a tafseer and is Saheeh Al I'itiqaad.

Subhanallah!

Don't let me even start with Ibrahim bin Hashim Al Kaththab, who heard 20,000 hadiths in a majlis but didn't narrate any of it.

Your trust is misplaced.

If you read the article that I linked you to, which is based on authentic hadiths only, you will realize how ambigious the Imamah was. The Imams never appointed the next Imam until before their deaths. Even the narration you posted about Al Khidr was doubted by Mohammad bin Yahya Al Attar.

Again, you have misplaced your trust on people with one-line biographies.

I'm saying that there being twelve Imams is widely narrated through various sources  and chains, whether it was famous I don't know. But that doesn't mean that those hadiths aren't hujjah for the Shi'a, heck, infallibility, which is proven through sahih hadiths, is also said to be a foreign concept among many of our earlier companions. That doesn't mean that whatever is narrated that was foreign to them should be rejected, especially if it is mutawatir.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Farid

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2017, 02:44:24 AM »
You don't have enough early sources for mutawatir reports bro. Each major hadith scholar is alone in his tabaqa. Al Kulayni is in a tabaqa. Al Saduq is in a tabaqa. Al Tusi is in a tabaqa. None of the other early scholars are anywhere as relevant.

Did you read the article I linked you to? I isn't that long, and you will find it to be very intruiging, I can guarantee you that.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 06:20:32 AM by Hani »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2017, 05:25:05 AM »
You don't enough early sources for mutawatir reports bro. Each major hadith scholar is alone in his tabaqa. Al Kulayni is in a tabaqa. Al Saduq is in a tabaqa. Al Tusi is in a tabaqa. None of the other early scholars are anywhere as relevant.

Did you read the article I linked you to? I isn't that long, and you will find it to be very intruiging, I can guarantee you that.

I read it and you had good points, I can say masha Allah you are more knowledgable about Shi'i rijal than me as a Shi'i.

However, I found this:

http://alfeker.net/library.php?id=1069

The author of this book narrates a plethora of hadith, which he calls mu'tabar, on the issue of Imamah in Shi'i hadith. He attempts to respond to some of the questions surrounding the early companions and about the shuhra of some of the things in the hadiths (twelve imams, their names etc...).

Specifically on page 191 in the book it starts, to I believe 2 pages down from that, in a Q/A setting.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hani

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2017, 06:21:52 AM »
I know this book, I used to quote it to refute Imamah . Weird huh?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2017, 06:28:16 AM »
I know this book, I used to quote it to refute Imamah . Weird huh?

In the exact same topic me and Farid are discussing, or another topic connected to Imamah?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hani

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2017, 06:36:32 AM »
I don't even remember, I recall the narration in it contradict or something so that's what I used it for maybe.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2017, 06:56:57 AM »
Regarding the narration naming the 12 and the other narration of the tablet with names, here is some input from an ex Shia who researched them.

A- Regarding Al Barqis narration which names the 12 in Al Kafi:

There are two isnads listed here, however both of them revert back to the same individual narrator, Ahmad b. Abi `Abdilllah Muhammad al-Barqi.  Historically there was some doubt about his reporting, even to the point he had been for a time exiled from Qum for it.  He was however later re-admitted to the city with the shaykh who had so exiled him repenting of this action, and so generally he is regarded to have been a trustworthy narrator by them.  We have in our possession today his book of hadith – al-Mahasin.

What is of relevance to this discussion here is that the above hadith can in fact be found in said book.  However, as we will see, there are some very key differences in the version he himself reports in his own book, and the version which al-Kulayni would record in al-Kafi, again purporting to be coming from al-Barqi himself (plus the intermediaries after him until it reaches al-Kulayni) in the chain.

In the text in al-Mahasin, the tradition reads as follows:

عنه، عن أبيه، عن أبى هاشم الجعفري رفع الحديث قال: قال أبو عبد الله (ع)، دخل أمير المؤمنين (صلوات الله عليه) المسجد ومعه الحسن (ع) فدخل رجل، فسلم عليه، فرد عليه شبيها بسلامه، فقال: يا أمير المؤمنين جئت أسألك فقال: سل، قال: أخبرني عن الرجل إذا نام أين تكون روحه؟ - وعن المولود الذى يشبه أباه كيف يكون؟ - وعن الذكر والنسيان كيف يكونان؟ - قال: فنظر أمير المؤمنين (ع) إلى الحسن (ع) فقال: أجبه، فقال الحسن: إن الرجل إذا نام فان روحه متعلقة بالريح، والريح متعلقة بالهواء، فإذا أراد الله أن يقبض روحه جذب الهواء الريح، وجذبت الريح الروح، وإذا أراد الله أن يردها في مكانها جذبت الروح الريح، وجذبت الريح الهواء، فعادت إلى مكانها، وأما المولود الذى يشبه أباه، فان الرجل أذا واقع أهله بقلب ساكن وبدن غير مضطرب وقعت النطفة في الرحم، فيشبه الولد أباه، وإذا واقعها بقلب شاغل وبدن مضطرب، فوقعت النطفة في الرحم، فان وقعت على عرق من عروق أعمامه يشبه الولد أعمامه، وإن وقعت على عرق من عروق أخواله يشبه الولد أخواله، وأما الذكر والنسيان، فان القلب في حق، والحق مطبق عليه، فإذا أراد الله أن يذكر القلب سقط الطبق، فذكر، فقال الرجل: " أشهد أن لا إلا الله وحده لا شريك له، وأشهد أن محمدا عبده ورسوله، وأشهد أن أباك أمير المؤمنين وصى محمد حقا حقا، ولم أزل أقوله، وأشهد أنك وصيه، وأشهد أن الحسين وصيك، حتى أتى على آخرهم "، فقال: قلت لابي عبد الله (ع): فمن كان الرجل؟ - قال: الخضر (ع)

As is clear, the two versions have some very major differences.  Again, this is not a case of a single narration being reported from multiple chains by different people with some variations in their reporting.  The latter is not entirely uncommon or unexpected as different people can remember things differently.  This is a single narration going back to a single person, where the version found in his own book is substantially different from the version purportedly reported through him and then suceeding intermediaries later on.  As to those differences:

The isnad of the Kafi version goes from al-Barqi to Abu Hashim to al-Jawad.  The earlier Mahasin version however goes from al-Barqi to his father to Abu Hashim and then becomes marfu` (missing a number of intermediary links) to Imam Sadiq عليه السلام.  Apparently then, the first version’s isnad has been cleaned up somewhat to appear more solid.  Abu Hashim could not have narrated directly from as-Sadiq عليه السلام directly of course (nor is that being claimed as such in the Mahasin version anyway), so instead the hadith is attributed to the Twelver Imam who would have been contemporaneous to him, that is, Muhammad al-Jawad.  The Kafi version skips the intermediary narrator between al-Barqi and Abu Hashim, most likely simply as an oversight, though it could possibly also due to the questions that have surrounded al-Barqi’s father for some in terms of his own reliability.
The Kafi version has a largely more developed dramatic narrative (with one exception, see below), describing in greater detail the location, the narrative dialogue and events.  Also in contrast the Kafi version ends off with Imam al-Hasan عليه السلام apparently not knowing who the questioner had been and so his father telling him, while in the Mahasin version it is the unnamed narrator from as-Sadiq عليه السلام who is asking of the questioner’s identity.
One narrative detail though lacking from the Kafi version is the actual answers to the three questions posed.  However, it is retained in other versions which we will mention shortly.
The greatest difference of course is that in the Kafi version, twelve Imams are listed and eleven explicitly named while in the earlier Mahasin version (whose compilation would have dated to before the set formation of a specifically Twelver belief) only the Imams up to al-Husayn عليه السلام are named, with the rest only stated generally (“until he came to the last of them”).  How this injection of names occurred is fairly easy to understand.  The Mahasin version says that al-Khidr named all of them.  To a later Twelver, that would mean he must have named the twelve Imams which he himself believed in.  So, in his mind by then filling in that detail, he would not have been being dishonest or lying, he simply would have been filling in what he believed al-Khidr عليه السلام would have actually said.  This of course though robs the narration of having any argumentative proof for the Twelver belief of today.

It should also be noted that there are a couple more versions of the hadith in addition to the one cited in al-Kafi - all of them going back to al-Barqi - specifically the Kitab al-Ghayba of al-Nu`mani and the Tafsir al-Qummi of `Ali b. Ibrahim. Of course, the earliest citation of the hadith would still be the one found in al-Mahasin, Ahmad b. Muhammad al-Barqi's very own book. However, the earliest pro-Twelver version would be the one found in `Ali b. Ibrahim's Tafsir al-Qummi.

If this is the case (as it appears so), the hadith originally found in al-Barqi's al-Mahsain could not have been altered (in that it becomes pro-Twelver) later than the time of `Ali b. Ibrahim. The thing is that `Ali b. Ibrahim is listed as an intermediary narrator between al-Kulayni (the compiler of al-Kafi) and al-Barqi and his own tafsir does not mention the isnad (i.e. saying that he got it from al-Barqi). So, the hadith was evidently changed to conform to the Twelver view at some point between al-Barqi and by the time it reached `Ali b. Ibrahim (who himself could have possibly changed it for all we know).

This is a clear demonstration how earlier, more general and non-Twelver specific hadiths had undergone a revision to then fit in with the later theology, and how this can have happened even in a case where the isnad of a narration would (by Twelver standards) be considered solid and unassailable.  It – and other narrations of this sort –then calls into question other such explicitly Twelver reports where we might not have the priviledge of comparing an earlier recension of them.  One has to ask that if such narrations (explicitly pro-Twelver with their specific line of Imams) were truly in circulation prior to the death of al-`Askari and formation of the Twelver sect, why then was there such a need to alter reports like the above to “prove” the theology?

The main narrator Abu Hashim Dawud b. al-Qasim al-Ja`fari, he also narrates this narration elsewhere where he clearly seems to have no idea who the Imams are.

فروى سعد بن عبد الله الاشعري، قال حدثني أبو هاشم داود بن القاسم الجعفري، قال: كنت عند أبي الحسن العسكري عليه السلام وقت وفاة إبنه أبي جعفر، وقد كان أشار إليه ودل عليه وإني لافكر في نفسي وأقول هذه قصة [ أبي ] إبراهيم عليه السلام وقصة إسماعيل فأقبل علي أبو الحسن عليه السلام وقال: نعم يا أبا هاشم بدا لله في أبي جعفر وصير مكانه أبا محمد كما بدا له في إسماعيل بعدما دل عليه أبو عبد الله عليه السلام ونصبه وهو كما حدثتك نفسك وإن كره المبطلون، أبو محمد ابني الخلف من بعدي، عنده ما تحتاجونه إليه، ومعه آلة الامامة والحمد لله

so basically, Abu Hashim himself had thought that Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. Ali al-Hadi was going to be the next Imam until he predeceased his father. at which time “bada” is explained to have occurred.

now, had he narrated from al-Jawad a hadith naming all the twelve Imams prior to that, why would he have thought any of this?

B- Regarding the narration of the tablet and names.

[He said: I entered upon Fatima عليها السلام and in her hands was a tablet with the names of the deputies (awsiya’) from her descendants. I counted twelve [in total], the last of whom was the Qa’im عليه السلام. Three of them [from her children] were Muhammad, and three of them were `Ali. (al-Kafi)]

Notice how they add [from her children] to the translation to try to “fix” it. so is it twelve Imams from her descendants, so thirteen Imams, or is that three of the Imams are named ‘Ali, which doesn’t fit their belief?

-end quote-
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2017, 01:07:47 PM »
That was quite some analysis! Look forward to zlatans response.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2017, 03:22:10 PM »
That was quite some analysis! Look forward to zlatans response.

I don't have a response to that, that is beyond my level and way past my knowledge. I am an honest person.

However I have some questions for both Hani and Farid.

If a hadith is not famous in the first century, but is famous in the third century, does that mean the hadith is fabricated? The author of the book I posted made this comparison when he said Yahya ibn Ma'in rejected the hadith "Al-Hasan and Al-Husayn are the masters of the youth of Jannah". He said it does not mean that the hadith is fabricated.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Farid

Re: 11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2017, 05:47:41 PM »
^ You shouldn't be comparing the two. Al Hasan and Al Hussain being the leaders of the youth of paradise is not an Asl of our deen. The number and names of your Imams is an Asl. It cannot be hidden knowledge held by a few. Where is the maslaha in hiding this knowledge? The evidence that the number and names were not known strongly out weighs any other argument.

Have you read the article I linked you to? It isn't long.

 

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