TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Rationalist on April 17, 2017, 04:59:37 AM
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
We are extremely clear. Ever read the sayings of our fuqaha regarding the status of the mukhalif? It is clear as daylight. Sure you don't see Shi'a propogating it a lot, that's because they fear for their safety and/or the safety of their fellow Shi'a.
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
We are extremely clear. Ever read the sayings of our fuqaha regarding the status of the mukhalif? It is clear as daylight. Sure you don't see Shi'a propogating it a lot, that's because they fear for their safety and/or the safety of their fellow Shi'a.
Really? Every time I discuss this with a Shi'ee, they try to make it sound like I am a mustadh'af. Hah!
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
We are extremely clear. Ever read the sayings of our fuqaha regarding the status of the mukhalif? It is clear as daylight. Sure you don't see Shi'a propogating it a lot, that's because they fear for their safety and/or the safety of their fellow Shi'a.
Really? Every time I discuss this with a Shi'ee, they try to make it sound like I am a mustadh'af. Hah!
Not you for sure.
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
We are extremely clear. Ever read the sayings of our fuqaha regarding the status of the mukhalif? It is clear as daylight. Sure you don't see Shi'a propogating it a lot, that's because they fear for their safety and/or the safety of their fellow Shi'a.
Really? Every time I discuss this with a Shi'ee, they try to make it sound like I am a mustadh'af. Hah!
This is a quite nice article on salvation. I believe most, if not all, of what is in there are the orthodox Shi'i positions on salvation.
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Not sure why the link to the site didn't pop up. Is it against site policy?
Anyway:
https://purifiedhousehold.com/salvation-of-non-shias/
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
We are extremely clear. Ever read the sayings of our fuqaha regarding the status of the mukhalif? It is clear as daylight. Sure you don't see Shi'a propogating it a lot, that's because they fear for their safety and/or the safety of their fellow Shi'a.
Really? Every time I discuss this with a Shi'ee, they try to make it sound like I am a mustadh'af. Hah!
Not you for sure.
Thanks for being blunt.
Why do you believe that the hujjah has been applied on me though?
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
We are extremely clear. Ever read the sayings of our fuqaha regarding the status of the mukhalif? It is clear as daylight. Sure you don't see Shi'a propogating it a lot, that's because they fear for their safety and/or the safety of their fellow Shi'a.
Really? Every time I discuss this with a Shi'ee, they try to make it sound like I am a mustadh'af. Hah!
This is a quite nice article on salvation. I believe most, if not all, of what is in there are the orthodox Shi'i positions on salvation.
Scholars like Shaykh Saduq believed taqiyyah must be done till the 12th Imam appears.
"Taqiyya is an obligatory duty (farida wajiba) upon us under the governance of the oppressors, thus whoever abandons it has opposed the religion of the Imamiyyah and has separated from it.As-Sadiq (as) said, “Even if I said ‘the one who abandons taqiyya is as the one who abandons salat,’ I would be speaking the truth.”Taqiyya is in all things, until it reaches bloodshed. If it reaches bloodshed then there is no taqiyya. Allah, sublime be His name, has given validity to the appearance of friendship (muwalah) to the deniers (kafirin) in the state of taqiyya. He, `azza wa jalla, has said, “The believers do not take the unbelievers as awliya instead of the believers, then whoever does that has nothing from Allah, except if you have a fear of them.”It is related from as-Sadiq (as) that he was asked about the saying of Allah, `azza wa jalla, “Verily the most noble of you with Allah is the most fearing”. He said “The one from you who most practices taqiyya.”He (as) said, “Mix with the people on the outside, and oppose them on the inside, so long as the affair is a longing.”He (as) said, “Allah have mercy on a command we urge the people towards and it has not made us to be hated by them.”He (as) said, “Visit their sick, attend their funerals, and pray in their masaajid.”He (as) said, “One who prays in the first row with them is as though he had prayed in the first row with the Messenger of Allah (sawas).”He said, “Ostentation (riya’) with the hypocrite in his house is worship, and with the believer, is shirk.”Taqiyya is obligatory; it is not allowed to abandon it until the Qa’im (as) comes forth. Whoso abandons it has entered in the interdiction of Allah, `azza wa jalla, and the interdiction of His Messenger and the Imams, the blessings of Allah be upon them all. "
(Kitab al-Hidaya Shaykh Saduq)
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
We are extremely clear. Ever read the sayings of our fuqaha regarding the status of the mukhalif? It is clear as daylight. Sure you don't see Shi'a propogating it a lot, that's because they fear for their safety and/or the safety of their fellow Shi'a.
Really? Every time I discuss this with a Shi'ee, they try to make it sound like I am a mustadh'af. Hah!
This is a quite nice article on salvation. I believe most, if not all, of what is in there are the orthodox Shi'i positions on salvation.
Scholars like Shaykh Saduq believed taqiyyah must be done till the 12th Imam appears.
"Taqiyya is an obligatory duty (farida wajiba) upon us under the governance of the oppressors, thus whoever abandons it has opposed the religion of the Imamiyyah and has separated from it.As-Sadiq (as) said, “Even if I said ‘the one who abandons taqiyya is as the one who abandons salat,’ I would be speaking the truth.”Taqiyya is in all things, until it reaches bloodshed. If it reaches bloodshed then there is no taqiyya. Allah, sublime be His name, has given validity to the appearance of friendship (muwalah) to the deniers (kafirin) in the state of taqiyya. He, `azza wa jalla, has said, “The believers do not take the unbelievers as awliya instead of the believers, then whoever does that has nothing from Allah, except if you have a fear of them.”It is related from as-Sadiq (as) that he was asked about the saying of Allah, `azza wa jalla, “Verily the most noble of you with Allah is the most fearing”. He said “The one from you who most practices taqiyya.”He (as) said, “Mix with the people on the outside, and oppose them on the inside, so long as the affair is a longing.”He (as) said, “Allah have mercy on a command we urge the people towards and it has not made us to be hated by them.”He (as) said, “Visit their sick, attend their funerals, and pray in their masaajid.”He (as) said, “One who prays in the first row with them is as though he had prayed in the first row with the Messenger of Allah (sawas).”He said, “Ostentation (riya’) with the hypocrite in his house is worship, and with the believer, is shirk.”Taqiyya is obligatory; it is not allowed to abandon it until the Qa’im (as) comes forth. Whoso abandons it has entered in the interdiction of Allah, `azza wa jalla, and the interdiction of His Messenger and the Imams, the blessings of Allah be upon them all. "
(Kitab al-Hidaya Shaykh Saduq)
Shaykh Al-Saduq (rah) had a lot of Fiqhi opinions that are not mashoor amongst the ta'ifa. Shaykh Al-Mufid (rah), I believe, refuted him on taqiyya.
Most jurists today have categorised taqiyya into different forms. The form you see a lot of Shi'a utilising is "al-taqiyya al-mudaratiyya" - which pretty much calls for visiting the sick Sunnis, attending their funerals, praying with them.
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Zlatan, please see my last post.
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Thanks for sharing. They are blunt with dead sects. I wish they would be this clear with Sunnis.
We are extremely clear. Ever read the sayings of our fuqaha regarding the status of the mukhalif? It is clear as daylight. Sure you don't see Shi'a propogating it a lot, that's because they fear for their safety and/or the safety of their fellow Shi'a.
Really? Every time I discuss this with a Shi'ee, they try to make it sound like I am a mustadh'af. Hah!
Not you for sure.
Thanks for being blunt.
Why do you believe that the hujjah has been applied on me though?
The article I posted makes it clear who falls under "mustadh'af". Clearly you don't fall under that.
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We're having a discussion bro. Do entertain my questions. =]
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We're having a discussion bro. Do entertain my questions. =]
No you don't, because the hujjah has been mentioned to you, you are a knowledgable person, you have quite a sum of knowledge about tashayyu and wilayah of Imam Ali (as). You have no excuse.
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We're having a discussion bro. Do entertain my questions. =]
No you don't, because the hujjah has been mentioned to you, you are a knowledgable person, you have quite a sum of knowledge about tashayyu and wilayah of Imam Ali (as). You have no excuse.
Wilayah of Ali? That isn't the main problem. Even if I did accept that, what about the other eleven? Surely you aren't claiming that I have no excuses with them as well?!
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We're having a discussion bro. Do entertain my questions. =]
No you don't, because the hujjah has been mentioned to you, you are a knowledgable person, you have quite a sum of knowledge about tashayyu and wilayah of Imam Ali (as). You have no excuse.
Wilayah of Ali? That isn't the main problem. Even if I did accept that, what about the other eleven? Surely you aren't claiming that I have no excuses with them as well?!
Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.
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Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.
So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.
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Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.
So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.
Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.
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Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.
So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.
Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.
Shia scholar of Hadith Muhammad Baqir al-Behbudi writes in "Ma`rifat al-Hadith" pg.172:
على انك عرفت في بحث الشذوذ عن نظام الامامة ان الأحاديث المروية في النصوص على الأئمة جملة من خبر اللوح وغيره كلها مصنوعة في عهد الغيبة والحيرة وقبلها بقليل فلو كانت هذه النصوص المتوافرة موجوده عند الشيعة اللإمامية لما اختلفوا في معرفة الأئمة هذا الاختلاف الفاضح ولما وقعت الحيرة لأساطين المذهب واركان الحديث سنوات عديدة وكانوا في غنى ان يتسرعوا في تأليف الكتب في اثبات الغيبة وكشف الحيرة عن قلوب الامة بهذه الكثرة
[And you (reader) now know after the research on "al-Shudhudh `an Nizam al-Imamah" that the narrations about the general identity of the Imams such as the narration of the Tablet (1) and others, are all fabricated during the time of al-Ghaybah (2) and al-Hayrah (3) and some short time before it. For if these narrations were available with the Imami Shia, they would not have disagreed so openly and greatly about the identity of the Imams, nor would the biggest personalities and narrators of Hadith have faced much confusion for long years, nor would they have needed to quickly write books proving the Ghaybah to unveil the confusion from the hearts of the nation in such great numbers.]
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Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.
So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.
Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.
No bro, that's not gonna cut it. Please establish the Hujjah upon brother Farid with regards to your Imams. Post your evidence here, no need for newspapers, make it clear and authentic to establish your sect's Hujjah.
You have 11, you start in order or randomly, one at a time or altogether combined in one verse.
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Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.
So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.
Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.
No bro, that's not gonna cut it. Please establish the Hujjah upon brother Farid with regards to your Imams. Post your evidence here, no need for newspapers, make it clear and authentic to establish your sect's Hujjah.
You have 11, you start in order or randomly, one at a time or altogether combined in one verse.
Well what do you consider a hujjah if you reject Shi'i hadith?
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Well what do you consider a hujjah if you reject Shi'i hadith?
I didn't say you can't use Shia Hadith to prove it to him, let's see if it stands as a Hujjah. It's up to him to review the evidence.
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Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.
So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.
Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.
No bro, that's not gonna cut it. Please establish the Hujjah upon brother Farid with regards to your Imams. Post your evidence here, no need for newspapers, make it clear and authentic to establish your sect's Hujjah.
You have 11, you start in order or randomly, one at a time or altogether combined in one verse.
Well what do you consider a hujjah if you reject Shi'i hadith?
A good place to start is by presenting a narration then explaining why it is a hujjah upon me.
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Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.
So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.
Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.
No bro, that's not gonna cut it. Please establish the Hujjah upon brother Farid with regards to your Imams. Post your evidence here, no need for newspapers, make it clear and authentic to establish your sect's Hujjah.
You have 11, you start in order or randomly, one at a time or altogether combined in one verse.
Well what do you consider a hujjah if you reject Shi'i hadith?
A good place to start is by presenting a narration then explaining why it is a hujjah upon me.
`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Zurara, al-Fudayl b. Yasar, Bukayr b. A`yan, Muhammad b. Muslim, Burayd b. Mu`awiya and Abu’l Jarud together from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.
He said: The wilaya of `Ali was an order from Allah عز وجل to His messenger, and He revealed upon him, “Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55). And He made the wilaya of the Possessors of the Command (ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory, and they did not understand what it was; so Allah ordered Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله to interpret [and clarify] the wilaya to them, just as he interpreted salat, zakat, sawm, and Hajj. When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him – so his chest tightened. He consulted his Lord عز وجل, so Allah عز وجل inspired to him, “O Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not preach, it will be as though you have not conveyed My Message, and Allah will protect you from the people”. (5:67) So he executed the command of Allah تعالى ذكره and declared the wilaya of `Ali عليه السلام on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. He called for a congregational prayer and commanded the people to bear testimony and inform the absent.
`Umar b. Udhayna said: All except Abu’l Jarud said:
And Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: And an obligation would be revealed after the other, and the wilaya was the final obligation, so Allah عز وجل revealed, “Today I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favour…” (5:3). Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: Allah عز وجل says: I will not reveal to you any obligation after this – I have completed for you the obligations. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 753)
(hasan) (حسن)
The Imam of the Muslims, my master, Al-Baqir (as), makes it clear what happened on the day of Ghadir Khumm and how the Prophet (saww) clearly appointed his successor, Imam Ali (as), and how he made wilaya the final faridha.
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This is not sufficient. It only speaks of one Imam.
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This is not sufficient. It only speaks of one Imam.
In a reliable hadith the Prophet told us that from his Ahlul Bayt there will be 12 muhadaths.
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Please, do post it here so we may know it.
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Please, do post it here so we may know it.
عن أبي جعفر الباقر(عليه السلام) عن آبائه (عليهم السلام) قال: قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): إن من أهل بيتي اثنى عشر محدثا.
غيبة النعماني
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Is that the binding evidence that is going to take me to hellfire for rejecting?! Come on, man. It doesn't even include the names of those that I am supposed to follow.
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Doesn't even say to follow them, it says they're Muhaddath (whatever your interpretation of that is), reminds us of the Sunni narration about `Umar being a Muhaddath yet no one equated it to infallibility or authority. No names, no gender even, it could have been one of his daughters or wives.
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Doesn't even say to follow them, it says they're Muhaddath (whatever your interpretation of that is), reminds us of the Sunni narration about `Umar being a Muhaddath yet no one equated it to infallibility or authority. No names, no gender even, it could have been one of his daughters or wives.
Don't worry, the hadiths are coming your way. Impatience is not cool.
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^ Saying the hujjah has been applied on me is not cool either (without evidence). Take your time.
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Muhammad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه from him from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim from al-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. `Ali from his father `Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. `Ali عليه السلام.
He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوات اللّه عليه was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s صلى الله عليه وآله words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. Who, then, is the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen)
(sahih) (صحيح)
`Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from Hamad b. `Uthman from `Isa b. as-Sariy.He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Inform me of the principles that Islam has been built upon; those which if I were to hold to them, my deeds would be purified, and any ignorance thereafter would not harm me. So he said: The testimony that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, and the confirmation that what he had brought was from Allah, and that [the payment of] the money of zakat is a right, and [holding to] the wilaya that Allah عزوجل has ordered – the wilaya of the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله. The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Whoever dies without recognizing his Imam has died the death of jahiliyya. Allah عزوجل says: “O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from amongst you” (4:59). It was `Ali, then after him it was al-Hasan, then after him it was al-Husayn, then after him it was `Ali b. al-Husayn, then after him it was Muhammad b. `Ali then, then this affair [will continue this way]. Verily, the Earth is not suitable except with an Imam, and whoever dies without recognizing his Imam will die the death of jahiliyya. The time when you will need it (i.e. wilaya) most urgently is when you find yourself here – and he pointed at his throat – and the world has been cut off from you, and you say, “I was upon a good affair”.
(sahih) (صحيح)
I would like to thank ShiaChat for all the translations.
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^ Even though these narrations are better, they do not identify the names of all the Imams. More importantly, both of them come through the path of Ali bin Ibrahim. Have you heard of this man? I honestly cannot consider him a Muslim. He has a Tafseer in which he claims that the Qur'an has been tampered with. I cannot take knowledge from this man.
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^ Even though these narrations are better, they do not identify the names of all the Imams. More importantly, both of them come through the path of Ali bin Ibrahim. Have you heard of this man? I honestly cannot consider him a Muslim. He has a Tafseer in which he claims that the Qur'an has been tampered with. I cannot take knowledge from this man.
1) There are individual narrations highlighting who will be the next Imam, by the previous Imams themselves. And they are sahih.
2) There is a difference whether the tafsir of Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is really his.
3) But even if I say it is his, I do not consider someone who believes in tahreef to be out of the fold of Islam.
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^ Even though these narrations are better, they do not identify the names of all the Imams. More importantly, both of them come through the path of Ali bin Ibrahim. Have you heard of this man? I honestly cannot consider him a Muslim. He has a Tafseer in which he claims that the Qur'an has been tampered with. I cannot take knowledge from this man.
1) There are individual narrations highlighting who will be the next Imam, by the previous Imams themselves. And they are sahih.
2) There is a difference whether the tafsir of Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is really his.
3) But even if I say it is his, I do not consider someone who believes in tahreef to be out of the fold of Islam.
1) The hujjah is not applied on me because of your claim. You need to prove this.
2) Your top scholars claim that it is. The chains indicate that it is by him as well. It is obvious to me that this is the case.
3) Your feelings about this man's religion is irrelevant to me. You are attempting to establish the hujjah upon me, so please do not provide evidences from someone this dubious.
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^ Even though these narrations are better, they do not identify the names of all the Imams. More importantly, both of them come through the path of Ali bin Ibrahim. Have you heard of this man? I honestly cannot consider him a Muslim. He has a Tafseer in which he claims that the Qur'an has been tampered with. I cannot take knowledge from this man.
1) There are individual narrations highlighting who will be the next Imam, by the previous Imams themselves. And they are sahih.
2) There is a difference whether the tafsir of Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is really his.
3) But even if I say it is his, I do not consider someone who believes in tahreef to be out of the fold of Islam.
1) The hujjah is not applied on me because of your claim. You need to prove this.
2) Your top scholars claim that it is. The chains indicate that it is by him as well. It is obvious to me that this is the case.
3) Your feelings about this man's religion is irrelevant to me. You are attempting to establish the hujjah upon me, so please do not provide evidences from someone this dubious.
1) So far what I have established from authentic Shi'a narrations:
- Imamah of a great number of Imams
- There are 12 muhaddaths from Ahlulbayt
- Whoever doesn't recognise the Imam of his time dies the death of jahiliyya
I will bring more proofs for other things.
2) Sayyed Al-Sistani who is a top scholar rejects this. I have heard that Shaykh Asif Muhsini does too, not sure how true that it.
3) That's your problem. You're coming from a Sunni view which is tahreef = kufr rather than a neutral view with no pre-conditional Sunni standards.
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Shia like to mention al khoi & sistant etc a lot. Whilst I appreciate that they are importment modern scholars in shi'ism, they came like a thousand years later.
So for me only early scholars should carry weight. Later scholars can verify what earlier scholars might have said but thats all really in this context.
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As Zaid bin Ali said, this narrator was accepted as the author of this blasphemy for centuries. As a Sunni, I see no reason to assume that this book was falsely attributed to him. I will not take my deen from someone with such corrupt beliefs. If you are someone that does, then be my guest, but do not assume that the hujjah has been applied on me for rejecting someone this dubious.
I would like to add that Al Khoei strenghened hundreds of narrators based on his acceptance of Tafseer Al Qummi. If he rejected the book or if the book was not accepted by Shias, then he would not have been so lenient.
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As Zaid bin Ali said, this narrator was accepted as the author of this blasphemy for centuries. As a Sunni, I see no reason to assume that this book was falsely attributed to him. I will not take my deen from someone with such corrupt beliefs. If you are someone that does, then be my guest, but do not assume that the hujjah has been applied on me for rejecting someone this dubious.
I would like to add that Al Khoei strenghened hundreds of narrators based on his acceptance of Tafseer Al Qummi. If he rejected the book or if the book was not accepted by Shias, then he would not have been so lenient.
The hujjah has applied to you whether you like it or not, and whether you like the sources or not. Simply hearing about tashayyu is a hujjah in and of itself. Same goes for Islam when it comes to Christians and Jews, if they are not convinced that's their problem.
In anyway, an authentic hadith with a similar wording without Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is also available.
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The hujjah has applied to you whether you like it or not, and whether you like the sources or not. Simply hearing about tashayyu is a hujjah in and of itself. Same goes for Islam when it comes to Christians and Jews, if they are not convinced that's their problem.
In anyway, an authentic hadith with a similar wording without Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is also available.
The comparison is very weak. A more accurate comparison is to say that a Jew and Christian have to accept Mohammad - peace be upon him - as a prophet without any evidences.
You believe that one of the foundations of the deen is adl, yet, you expect Sunnis to accept Shiasm based on narrations that don't list the names of the Imams?! Then we are eternally damned to hellfire because we didn't place our trust in a kaffir that rejects Al Thaql Al Akbar?!
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The hujjah has applied to you whether you like it or not, and whether you like the sources or not. Simply hearing about tashayyu is a hujjah in and of itself. Same goes for Islam when it comes to Christians and Jews, if they are not convinced that's their problem.
In anyway, an authentic hadith with a similar wording without Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is also available.
The comparison is very weak. A more accurate comparison is to say that a Jew and Christian have to accept Mohammad - peace be upon him - as a prophet without any evidences.
You believe that one of the foundations of the deen is adl, yet, you expect Sunnis to accept Shiasm based on narrations that don't list the names of the Imams?! Then we are eternally damned to hellfire because we didn't place our trust in a kaffir that rejects Al Thaql Al Akbar?!
Good points. But I told you we have a narration which is authentically narrated with similar wording without Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah).
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You saying that there is evidence from alternative paths is not good enough for me akhi. The hujjah is not applied until you bring me evidence. With all due respect, you are an anonymous user on message boards.
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Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Safwan b. Yahya from `Isa b. as-Sariy Abu’l Yasa`. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Inform me of the principles of Islam; those which no one can fall short in their recognition of a thing from them, those which if anyone were to fall short in their recognition of a thing from them he would corrupt his religion and his deeds would not be accepted. Those which, if one were to recognize them and act by them, his religion would be correct and his deeds would be accepted; and they would not tighten for him from that which he is ignorant of. So he said: The testimony that there is no god except Allah, and faith that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, and the confirmation that what he had brought was from Allah, and that [the payment of] the money of zakat is a right, and [holding to] the wilaya that Allah عزوجل has ordered – the wilaya of the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله. He said: So I said: Is there anything in the wilaya that is exclusive in virtue for one that holds to it? He said: Yes, Allah عزوجل says: “O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from amongst you” (4:59). And the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Whoever dies without recognizing his Imam has died the death of jahiliyya. That [imam] was the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, then it was `Ali عليه السلام, while the others said, “That was Mu`awiya”. Then it was al-Hasan, then it was al-Husayn, while others said, “Yazid b. Mu`awiya and Husayn b. `Ali”, while they are not equal, they are not equal.He said: Then he was silent. Then he said: Shall I elaborate for you? Hakam al-A`oor said to him: Yes, may I be your ransom. He said: Then it was `Ali b. al-Husayn, then it was Muhammad b. `Ali Abu Ja`far. Before Abu Ja`far, the Shi`a did not know the rules of Hajj, nor of what was permissible for them or what was forbidden for them, until Abu Ja`far; so he opened for them and explained to them the rules of Hajj and what was permissible for them and what was forbidden for them, until the people needed them after they had needed the people. And this is the affair – the Earth does not remain without an Imam, and whoever dies without recognizing his Imam has died the death of jahiliyya. The time when you will need it (i.e. wilaya) most urgently is when you find yourself here – and he pointed at his throat – and the world has been cut off from you, and you say, “I was upon a good affair”.And a similar hadith was narrated from Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from `Isa b. as-Sariyy Abu’l Yasa` from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.
(sahih) (صحيح)
It seems hadith by similar wording has been narrated by more than one chain, and that's two that are sahih. Allahu Akbar! Allahuma sale ala Muhammad wa als Muhammad.
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Nice try, but allow me to coin a term. The above should be referred to as a "reverse wasiyyah."
The Imamate of someone is not established by a man listing the Imamate of his forefathers, it is through the Imam appointing a son. If one's Imamate is not established, he does not have the authority to establish the Imamate of others.
This is not a hujjah against any Sunni, nor is it a hujjah against any of the Shia sects of old.
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Nice try, but allow me to coin a term. The above should be referred to as a "reverse wasiyyah."
The Imamate of someone is not established by a man listing the Imamate of his forefathers, it is through the Imam appointing a son. If one's Imamate is not established, he does not have the authority to establish the Imamate of others.
This is not a hujjah against any Sunni, nor is it a hujjah against any of the Shia sects of old.
What would be a hujjah to you?
I already said I don't think Shi'ism as a whole can be directly proven through Sunni texts, although many Shi'a try to anyway. Sure, there can be discussions over Ghadir Khumm and Hadith Al-Thaqalayn which are a start nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is possible to prove the Imamate of Ali all the way to Al-Mahdi just by Sunni texts alone.
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Nice try, but allow me to coin a term. The above should be referred to as a "reverse wasiyyah."
The Imamate of someone is not established by a man listing the Imamate of his forefathers, it is through the Imam appointing a son. If one's Imamate is not established, he does not have the authority to establish the Imamate of others.
This is not a hujjah against any Sunni, nor is it a hujjah against any of the Shia sects of old.
What would be a hujjah to you?
I already said I don't think Shi'ism as a whole can be directly proven through Sunni texts, although many Shi'a try to anyway. Sure, there can be discussions over Ghadir Khumm and Hadith Al-Thaqalayn which are a start nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is possible to prove the Imamate of Ali all the way to Al-Mahdi just by Sunni texts alone.
Of course it is impossible to do through through Sunni texts, but it seems that you are struggling to provide evidence from Shia texts as well. My issue is your claim that the hujjah has placed upon me and I will be damned for rejecting the "clear evidence".
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Nice try, but allow me to coin a term. The above should be referred to as a "reverse wasiyyah."
The Imamate of someone is not established by a man listing the Imamate of his forefathers, it is through the Imam appointing a son. If one's Imamate is not established, he does not have the authority to establish the Imamate of others.
This is not a hujjah against any Sunni, nor is it a hujjah against any of the Shia sects of old.
What would be a hujjah to you?
I already said I don't think Shi'ism as a whole can be directly proven through Sunni texts, although many Shi'a try to anyway. Sure, there can be discussions over Ghadir Khumm and Hadith Al-Thaqalayn which are a start nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is possible to prove the Imamate of Ali all the way to Al-Mahdi just by Sunni texts alone.
Of course it is impossible to do through through Sunni texts, but it seems that you are struggling to provide evidence from Shia texts as well. My issue is your claim that the hujjah has placed upon me and I will be damned for rejecting the "clear evidence".
I am not struggling at all. I will bring more proofs in fact from Shi'i hadiths.
As for the last part, please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say you are rejecting any clear evidence at all, but you will still be damned for rejecting tashayyu anyway.
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I will be damned to hellfire for eternity even though I am not presented by clear evidences?
I am not struggling at all. I will bring more proofs in fact from Shi'i hadiths.
I'm waiting.
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I will be damned to hellfire for eternity even though I am not presented by clear evidences?
I am not struggling at all. I will bring more proofs in fact from Shi'i hadiths.
I'm waiting.
Do you believe that every kafir has clear evidence of Islam? Then why do you think they are damned to Hell?
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Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.
Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.
Let us stick to the topic.
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Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.
Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.
Let us stick to the topic.
You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.
Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?
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I see you are changing the topic now. The discussion was proving Imamah of the 12 from Shia books that you have so far failed to establish.
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Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.
Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.
Let us stick to the topic.
You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.
Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?
Ibrahomivic is changing goalposts......yet again
I've had that experience with him too, it's a typical Shiite trait, I guess all thanks to the SC team and Islam.org👍👍👍
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Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.
Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.
Let us stick to the topic.
You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.
Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?
Ibrahomivic is changing goalposts......yet again
I've had that experience with him too, it's a typical Shiite trait, I guess all thanks to the SC team and Islam.org👍👍👍
Not really. I admitted I cannot prove Imamah as a hujjah to him. I admitted my stance.
So now we move onto a different subject. As for it being a trait of mine, says a guy who thinks Ahmadinejad is an authority for the Shi'a. Lol.
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Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.
Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.
Let us stick to the topic.
You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.
Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?
Ibrahomivic is changing goalposts......yet again
I've had that experience with him too, it's a typical Shiite trait, I guess all thanks to the SC team and Islam.org👍👍👍
Not really. I admitted I cannot prove Imamah as a hujjah to him. I admitted my stance.
So now we move onto a different subject. As for it being a trait of mine, says a guy who thinks Ahmadinejad is an authority for the Shi'a. Lol.
Didn't say that you liar, at least now I can call you khadab without guilt.
You couldn't prove no hujjah upon him then you changed subject
Keep at it khadab👍
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I see you are changing the topic now. The discussion was proving Imamah of the 12 from Shia books that you have so far failed to establish.
Well I changed the topic because I admit I cannot bring a hujjah to Mr. Farid. I will continue bring Shi'i hadith for the rest of the users, so stay tuned.
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Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.
Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.
Let us stick to the topic.
You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.
Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?
Ibrahomivic is changing goalposts......yet again
I've had that experience with him too, it's a typical Shiite trait, I guess all thanks to the SC team and Islam.org👍👍👍
Not really. I admitted I cannot prove Imamah as a hujjah to him. I admitted my stance.
So now we move onto a different subject. As for it being a trait of mine, says a guy who thinks Ahmadinejad is an authority for the Shi'a. Lol.
Didn't say that you liar, at least now I can call you khadab without guilt.
You couldn't prove no hujjah upon him then you changed subject
Keep at it khadab👍
"Khadab"? What's that? And yes you did say that, so stop lying.
Yes, I couldn't bring a hujjah to him, I admit that.
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Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Hisham b. Salim from Jabir b. Yazeed al-Ju`fi from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said:
A question was asked about the Qa’im عليه السلام, so he tapped Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام with his hand. Then, he said: This, by Allah, is a Qa’im of the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله.
Anbasa said: So when Abu Ja`far عليه السلام had passed away, I entered upon Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام and I informed him of that. So he said: Jabir told the truth. He then said: Lest you think that every Imam [that comes] after the preceding Imam is not the Qa’im. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 789)
(sahih) (صحيح)
Sahih hadith proving the designation Imam Al-Sadiq (as) as the Imam. Therefore this proves the hujjiyah of the words of Imam Al-Sadiq (as) in the previous narrations.
Translation was done by the imamiyya website.
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Authentic hadith which shows Al-Khidr (as) knew who the Imams (as) are/will be:
Several of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad al-Barqi from Abi Hisham Dawud b. al-Qasim al-Ja`fari from Abu Ja`far the Second عليه السلام.
He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام came with al-Hasan b. `Ali عليه السلام and he was leaning on the hand of Salman [for support]. So he entered the Sacred Mosque and sat down, when a good looking and well-dressed man met him. He gavesalaam to Amir al-Mu’mineen, and he عليه السلام answered him, so he sat. He then said: O Amir al-Mu’mineen, I will ask you three questions. If you inform me of their answers, I will acknowledge that the community that mounted your affair have acted against their own selves. Their actions have taken peace away from them in the world and in the hereafter. If it would be otherwise, then you and they will be the same. So Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said to him: Ask me whatever you wish. He said: Inform me of the man who sleeps – where does his soul go? Inform me of the man – how does he remember and forget? Inform me of the man – how do his children become similar to the aunts and uncles? So Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام turned to al-Hasan and said: O Abu Muhammad, answer him. He said: So al-Hasan عليه السلام answered him.
The man then said: I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and I persist in this testimony. I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and I persist in this testimony. I bear witness that you are the deputy of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and the one presiding by his authority – and he pointed to Amir al-Mu’mineen – and I persist in this testimony. And I bear witness that you are his deputy and the riser to his authority – and he pointed to al-Hasan عليه السلام – and I bear witness that al-Husayn b. `Ali is a deputy and the riser to his authority after him. And I bear witness that `Ali b. al-Husayn is the riser to his authority after him. And I bear witness that Muhammad b. `Ali is the riser to authority of `Ali b. al-Husayn. And I bear witness that Ja`far b. Muhammad is the riser to the authority of Muhammad [b. `Ali]. And I bear witness that Musa [b. Ja`far] is the riser to the authority of Ja`far b. Muhammad. And I bear witness that `Ali b. Musa is the riser to the authority of Musa b. Ja`far. And I bear witness that Muhammad b. `Ali is the riser to the authority of `Ali b. Musa. And I bear witness that `Ali b. Muhammad is the riser to the authority of Muhammad b. `Ali. And I bear witness that al-Hasan b. `Ali is the riser to the authority of `Ali b. Muhammad. And I bear witness that a man from the children of al-Hasan [will succeed him]; he is not mentioned by kunya or by name until he appears and fills the world with equity and justice as it would be fraught with injustice. And may His peace be upon you, O Amir al-Mu’mineen, and His mercy and His blessings. He then stood up and left. Amir al-Mu’mineen said: O Abu Muhammad, follow him and find where he went.
So al-Hasan b. `Ali عليهما السلام left and said: As soon as the man left the mosque, I could not see what direction of the Earth of Allah he had gone. So he went to Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام and informed him, so he said: O Abu Muhammad, do you know who he is? I said: Allah, His Messenger, and Amir al-Mu’mineen are more knowledgeable. He said: He is al-Khidr عليه السلام. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 1377)
(sahih) (صحيح)
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Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Hisham b. Salim from Jabir b. Yazeed al-Ju`fi from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said:
A question was asked about the Qa’im عليه السلام, so he tapped Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام with his hand. Then, he said: This, by Allah, is a Qa’im of the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله.
Anbasa said: So when Abu Ja`far عليه السلام had passed away, I entered upon Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام and I informed him of that. So he said: Jabir told the truth. He then said: Lest you think that every Imam [that comes] after the preceding Imam is not the Qa’im. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 789)
(sahih) (صحيح)
Sahih hadith proving the designation Imam Al-Sadiq (as) as the Imam. Therefore this proves the hujjiyah of the words of Imam Al-Sadiq (as) in the previous narrations.
Translation was done by the imamiyya website.
Al Baqir's imamate is not established, and therefore he cannot appoint an Imam.
Your hadith about Al Khidr is another case of reverse wasiyyah. Al Jawad never met Al Kathim let alone Ali bin Abi Talib. He cannot appoint himself and his fathers as Imams. This is not a hujjah on anyone.
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Wow, the discussing is killing. I never thought that it would so hard and difficult for Shias to prove the Imamah of their Imams from their own books.
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Sahih hadith proving the Imams (as) are twelve:
Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه from him from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim1 from al-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. `Ali from his father `Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. `Ali عليه السلام.
He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوات اللّه عليه was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s صلى الله عليه وآله words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. Who, then, are the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen)
(sahih) (صحيح)
Hadith goes all the way up to Ameer Al-Mu'mineen (as).
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Wow, the discussing is killing. I never thought that it would so hard and difficult for Shias to prove the Imamah of their Imams from their own books.
Unlike you guys, many of our books are not translated online. I could simply quote Arabic hadiths but it wouldn't be good for the non-Arab speakers.
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Wow, the discussing is killing. I never thought that it would so hard and difficult for Shias to prove the Imamah of their Imams from their own books.
Unlike you guys, many of our books are not translated online. I could simply quote Arabic hadiths but it wouldn't be good for the non-Arab speakers.
No issue bro please go ahead. Post those arabic ahadeeth. We want you to establish Hujjah on Farid, and this guy Farid knows Arabic. So aim him, its a good opportunity for you.
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The hadith I just posted pretty much confirmed Ithna Ashariyya.
1) Ali, Hasan and Husayn, may Allah send blessings upon them, are Imams as per the tafsir of Imam Ali (as) of the famous hadith of the Prophet of Allah (saww).
2) The Imamah is from the progeny of Al-Husayn (as). This would falsify any claim of any sect which believes in an "Imam" who is not of the progeny of Al-Husayn (as).
3) The Imams are twelve, this means that any group which cut off before twelve Imams is a false sect.
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More:
Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Abu’l Jarud from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام from Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari.
He said: I entered upon Fatima عليها السلام and in her hands was a tablet with the names of the deputies (awsiya’) from her descendants. I counted twelve [in total], the last of whom was the Qa’im عليه السلام. Three of them [from her children] were Muhammad, and three of them were `Ali. (al-Kafi)
(muwathaq) (موثق)
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Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه from him from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim1 from al-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. `Ali from his father `Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. `Ali عليه السلام.
He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوات اللّه عليه was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s صلى الله عليه وآله words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. Who, then, are the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen)
(sahih) (صحيح)
Hadith goes all the way up to Ameer Al-Mu'mineen (as).
Why do you keep providing evidences with this kaffir in the chain?
Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Abu’l Jarud from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام from Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari.
He said: I entered upon Fatima عليها السلام and in her hands was a tablet with the names of the deputies (awsiya’) from her descendants. I counted twelve [in total], the last of whom was the Qa’im عليه السلام. Three of them [from her children] were Muhammad, and three of them were `Ali. (al-Kafi)
(muwathaq) (موثق)
You shouldn't believe this fabrication.
Read my article. Shias had no idea that the Imams would be twelve nor did they know their names.
http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/02/11/understanding-imamate-early-shia-society/
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Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه from him from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim1 from al-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. `Ali from his father `Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. `Ali عليه السلام.
He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوات اللّه عليه was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s صلى الله عليه وآله words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. Who, then, are the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen)
(sahih) (صحيح)
Hadith goes all the way up to Ameer Al-Mu'mineen (as).
Why do you keep providing evidences with this kaffir in the chain?
Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Abu’l Jarud from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام from Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari.
He said: I entered upon Fatima عليها السلام and in her hands was a tablet with the names of the deputies (awsiya’) from her descendants. I counted twelve [in total], the last of whom was the Qa’im عليه السلام. Three of them [from her children] were Muhammad, and three of them were `Ali. (al-Kafi)
(muwathaq) (موثق)
You shouldn't believe this fabrication.
Read my article. Shias had no idea that the Imams would be twelve nor did they know their names.
http://www.twelvershia.net/2017/02/11/understanding-imamate-early-shia-society/
He is not a kafir he is more mu'min than any mukhalif Nasibite shaykh especially Ibn TimTam. Please don't insult my scholars and I won't insult yours.
The purpose of what I am doing is proving tashayyu and the Twelve Imams is available in authentic narrations in Shi'i books as I already told you I cannot bring a hujjah upon you. The hadith I brought forth is sahih as per Shi'i standards, and Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) - to us - is a brilliant and knowledgable man who our scholars of rijal praised, and by the way, for you it shouldn't matter whether Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is in the chain or not to you all the hadiths I quoted are weak anyway. In fact you think Al-Kulayni believed in tahreef, so what is the use of quoting Al-Kafi at all?
As for the hadith of Jabir, it is possible that this was not widely reported or known and the Imam (as) told this to one or two companions.
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The hadith I brought forth is sahih as per Shi'i standards, and Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) - to us - is a brilliant and knowledgable man who our scholars of rijal praised
Why do you even refer to him as brilliant? Is the proof of his brilliance that he wrote a tafseer of kufr? Or is the proof of his brilliance that he quoted his father, heck, 95% of his reports are from his father. Ali bin Ibrahim, who you take half your religion from, is a nobody. Al Tusi himself never even made tawtheeq of the man. The only reason you trust him is because Al Najashi made tawtheeq of him, concluding that he wrote a tafseer and is Saheeh Al I'itiqaad.
Subhanallah!
Don't let me even start with Ibrahim bin Hashim Al Kaththab, who heard 20,000 hadiths in a majlis but didn't narrate any of it.
Your trust is misplaced.
If you read the article that I linked you to, which is based on authentic hadiths only, you will realize how ambigious the Imamah was. The Imams never appointed the next Imam until before their deaths. Even the narration you posted about Al Khidr was doubted by Mohammad bin Yahya Al Attar.
Again, you have misplaced your trust on people with one-line biographies.
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The hadith I brought forth is sahih as per Shi'i standards, and Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) - to us - is a brilliant and knowledgable man who our scholars of rijal praised
Why do you even refer to him as brilliant? Is the proof of his brilliance that he wrote a tafseer of kufr? Or is the proof of his brilliance that he quoted his father, heck, 95% of his reports are from his father. Ali bin Ibrahim, who you take half your religion from, is a nobody. Al Tusi himself never even made tawtheeq of the man. The only reason you trust him is because Al Najashi made tawtheeq of him, concluding that he wrote a tafseer and is Saheeh Al I'itiqaad.
Subhanallah!
Don't let me even start with Ibrahim bin Hashim Al Kaththab, who heard 20,000 hadiths in a majlis but didn't narrate any of it.
Your trust is misplaced.
If you read the article that I linked you to, which is based on authentic hadiths only, you will realize how ambigious the Imamah was. The Imams never appointed the next Imam until before their deaths. Even the narration you posted about Al Khidr was doubted by Mohammad bin Yahya Al Attar.
Again, you have misplaced your trust on people with one-line biographies.
I'm saying that there being twelve Imams is widely narrated through various sources and chains, whether it was famous I don't know. But that doesn't mean that those hadiths aren't hujjah for the Shi'a, heck, infallibility, which is proven through sahih hadiths, is also said to be a foreign concept among many of our earlier companions. That doesn't mean that whatever is narrated that was foreign to them should be rejected, especially if it is mutawatir.
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You don't have enough early sources for mutawatir reports bro. Each major hadith scholar is alone in his tabaqa. Al Kulayni is in a tabaqa. Al Saduq is in a tabaqa. Al Tusi is in a tabaqa. None of the other early scholars are anywhere as relevant.
Did you read the article I linked you to? I isn't that long, and you will find it to be very intruiging, I can guarantee you that.
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You don't enough early sources for mutawatir reports bro. Each major hadith scholar is alone in his tabaqa. Al Kulayni is in a tabaqa. Al Saduq is in a tabaqa. Al Tusi is in a tabaqa. None of the other early scholars are anywhere as relevant.
Did you read the article I linked you to? I isn't that long, and you will find it to be very intruiging, I can guarantee you that.
I read it and you had good points, I can say masha Allah you are more knowledgable about Shi'i rijal than me as a Shi'i.
However, I found this:
http://alfeker.net/library.php?id=1069
The author of this book narrates a plethora of hadith, which he calls mu'tabar, on the issue of Imamah in Shi'i hadith. He attempts to respond to some of the questions surrounding the early companions and about the shuhra of some of the things in the hadiths (twelve imams, their names etc...).
Specifically on page 191 in the book it starts, to I believe 2 pages down from that, in a Q/A setting.
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I know this book, I used to quote it to refute Imamah . Weird huh?
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I know this book, I used to quote it to refute Imamah . Weird huh?
In the exact same topic me and Farid are discussing, or another topic connected to Imamah?
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I don't even remember, I recall the narration in it contradict or something so that's what I used it for maybe.
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Regarding the narration naming the 12 and the other narration of the tablet with names, here is some input from an ex Shia who researched them.
A- Regarding Al Barqis narration which names the 12 in Al Kafi:
There are two isnads listed here, however both of them revert back to the same individual narrator, Ahmad b. Abi `Abdilllah Muhammad al-Barqi. Historically there was some doubt about his reporting, even to the point he had been for a time exiled from Qum for it. He was however later re-admitted to the city with the shaykh who had so exiled him repenting of this action, and so generally he is regarded to have been a trustworthy narrator by them. We have in our possession today his book of hadith – al-Mahasin.
What is of relevance to this discussion here is that the above hadith can in fact be found in said book. However, as we will see, there are some very key differences in the version he himself reports in his own book, and the version which al-Kulayni would record in al-Kafi, again purporting to be coming from al-Barqi himself (plus the intermediaries after him until it reaches al-Kulayni) in the chain.
In the text in al-Mahasin, the tradition reads as follows:
عنه، عن أبيه، عن أبى هاشم الجعفري رفع الحديث قال: قال أبو عبد الله (ع)، دخل أمير المؤمنين (صلوات الله عليه) المسجد ومعه الحسن (ع) فدخل رجل، فسلم عليه، فرد عليه شبيها بسلامه، فقال: يا أمير المؤمنين جئت أسألك فقال: سل، قال: أخبرني عن الرجل إذا نام أين تكون روحه؟ - وعن المولود الذى يشبه أباه كيف يكون؟ - وعن الذكر والنسيان كيف يكونان؟ - قال: فنظر أمير المؤمنين (ع) إلى الحسن (ع) فقال: أجبه، فقال الحسن: إن الرجل إذا نام فان روحه متعلقة بالريح، والريح متعلقة بالهواء، فإذا أراد الله أن يقبض روحه جذب الهواء الريح، وجذبت الريح الروح، وإذا أراد الله أن يردها في مكانها جذبت الروح الريح، وجذبت الريح الهواء، فعادت إلى مكانها، وأما المولود الذى يشبه أباه، فان الرجل أذا واقع أهله بقلب ساكن وبدن غير مضطرب وقعت النطفة في الرحم، فيشبه الولد أباه، وإذا واقعها بقلب شاغل وبدن مضطرب، فوقعت النطفة في الرحم، فان وقعت على عرق من عروق أعمامه يشبه الولد أعمامه، وإن وقعت على عرق من عروق أخواله يشبه الولد أخواله، وأما الذكر والنسيان، فان القلب في حق، والحق مطبق عليه، فإذا أراد الله أن يذكر القلب سقط الطبق، فذكر، فقال الرجل: " أشهد أن لا إلا الله وحده لا شريك له، وأشهد أن محمدا عبده ورسوله، وأشهد أن أباك أمير المؤمنين وصى محمد حقا حقا، ولم أزل أقوله، وأشهد أنك وصيه، وأشهد أن الحسين وصيك، حتى أتى على آخرهم "، فقال: قلت لابي عبد الله (ع): فمن كان الرجل؟ - قال: الخضر (ع)
As is clear, the two versions have some very major differences. Again, this is not a case of a single narration being reported from multiple chains by different people with some variations in their reporting. The latter is not entirely uncommon or unexpected as different people can remember things differently. This is a single narration going back to a single person, where the version found in his own book is substantially different from the version purportedly reported through him and then suceeding intermediaries later on. As to those differences:
The isnad of the Kafi version goes from al-Barqi to Abu Hashim to al-Jawad. The earlier Mahasin version however goes from al-Barqi to his father to Abu Hashim and then becomes marfu` (missing a number of intermediary links) to Imam Sadiq عليه السلام. Apparently then, the first version’s isnad has been cleaned up somewhat to appear more solid. Abu Hashim could not have narrated directly from as-Sadiq عليه السلام directly of course (nor is that being claimed as such in the Mahasin version anyway), so instead the hadith is attributed to the Twelver Imam who would have been contemporaneous to him, that is, Muhammad al-Jawad. The Kafi version skips the intermediary narrator between al-Barqi and Abu Hashim, most likely simply as an oversight, though it could possibly also due to the questions that have surrounded al-Barqi’s father for some in terms of his own reliability.
The Kafi version has a largely more developed dramatic narrative (with one exception, see below), describing in greater detail the location, the narrative dialogue and events. Also in contrast the Kafi version ends off with Imam al-Hasan عليه السلام apparently not knowing who the questioner had been and so his father telling him, while in the Mahasin version it is the unnamed narrator from as-Sadiq عليه السلام who is asking of the questioner’s identity.
One narrative detail though lacking from the Kafi version is the actual answers to the three questions posed. However, it is retained in other versions which we will mention shortly.
The greatest difference of course is that in the Kafi version, twelve Imams are listed and eleven explicitly named while in the earlier Mahasin version (whose compilation would have dated to before the set formation of a specifically Twelver belief) only the Imams up to al-Husayn عليه السلام are named, with the rest only stated generally (“until he came to the last of them”). How this injection of names occurred is fairly easy to understand. The Mahasin version says that al-Khidr named all of them. To a later Twelver, that would mean he must have named the twelve Imams which he himself believed in. So, in his mind by then filling in that detail, he would not have been being dishonest or lying, he simply would have been filling in what he believed al-Khidr عليه السلام would have actually said. This of course though robs the narration of having any argumentative proof for the Twelver belief of today.
It should also be noted that there are a couple more versions of the hadith in addition to the one cited in al-Kafi - all of them going back to al-Barqi - specifically the Kitab al-Ghayba of al-Nu`mani and the Tafsir al-Qummi of `Ali b. Ibrahim. Of course, the earliest citation of the hadith would still be the one found in al-Mahasin, Ahmad b. Muhammad al-Barqi's very own book. However, the earliest pro-Twelver version would be the one found in `Ali b. Ibrahim's Tafsir al-Qummi.
If this is the case (as it appears so), the hadith originally found in al-Barqi's al-Mahsain could not have been altered (in that it becomes pro-Twelver) later than the time of `Ali b. Ibrahim. The thing is that `Ali b. Ibrahim is listed as an intermediary narrator between al-Kulayni (the compiler of al-Kafi) and al-Barqi and his own tafsir does not mention the isnad (i.e. saying that he got it from al-Barqi). So, the hadith was evidently changed to conform to the Twelver view at some point between al-Barqi and by the time it reached `Ali b. Ibrahim (who himself could have possibly changed it for all we know).
This is a clear demonstration how earlier, more general and non-Twelver specific hadiths had undergone a revision to then fit in with the later theology, and how this can have happened even in a case where the isnad of a narration would (by Twelver standards) be considered solid and unassailable. It – and other narrations of this sort –then calls into question other such explicitly Twelver reports where we might not have the priviledge of comparing an earlier recension of them. One has to ask that if such narrations (explicitly pro-Twelver with their specific line of Imams) were truly in circulation prior to the death of al-`Askari and formation of the Twelver sect, why then was there such a need to alter reports like the above to “prove” the theology?
The main narrator Abu Hashim Dawud b. al-Qasim al-Ja`fari, he also narrates this narration elsewhere where he clearly seems to have no idea who the Imams are.
فروى سعد بن عبد الله الاشعري، قال حدثني أبو هاشم داود بن القاسم الجعفري، قال: كنت عند أبي الحسن العسكري عليه السلام وقت وفاة إبنه أبي جعفر، وقد كان أشار إليه ودل عليه وإني لافكر في نفسي وأقول هذه قصة [ أبي ] إبراهيم عليه السلام وقصة إسماعيل فأقبل علي أبو الحسن عليه السلام وقال: نعم يا أبا هاشم بدا لله في أبي جعفر وصير مكانه أبا محمد كما بدا له في إسماعيل بعدما دل عليه أبو عبد الله عليه السلام ونصبه وهو كما حدثتك نفسك وإن كره المبطلون، أبو محمد ابني الخلف من بعدي، عنده ما تحتاجونه إليه، ومعه آلة الامامة والحمد لله
so basically, Abu Hashim himself had thought that Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. Ali al-Hadi was going to be the next Imam until he predeceased his father. at which time “bada” is explained to have occurred.
now, had he narrated from al-Jawad a hadith naming all the twelve Imams prior to that, why would he have thought any of this?
B- Regarding the narration of the tablet and names.
[He said: I entered upon Fatima عليها السلام and in her hands was a tablet with the names of the deputies (awsiya’) from her descendants. I counted twelve [in total], the last of whom was the Qa’im عليه السلام. Three of them [from her children] were Muhammad, and three of them were `Ali. (al-Kafi)]
Notice how they add [from her children] to the translation to try to “fix” it. so is it twelve Imams from her descendants, so thirteen Imams, or is that three of the Imams are named ‘Ali, which doesn’t fit their belief?
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That was quite some analysis! Look forward to zlatans response.
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That was quite some analysis! Look forward to zlatans response.
I don't have a response to that, that is beyond my level and way past my knowledge. I am an honest person.
However I have some questions for both Hani and Farid.
If a hadith is not famous in the first century, but is famous in the third century, does that mean the hadith is fabricated? The author of the book I posted made this comparison when he said Yahya ibn Ma'in rejected the hadith "Al-Hasan and Al-Husayn are the masters of the youth of Jannah". He said it does not mean that the hadith is fabricated.
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^ You shouldn't be comparing the two. Al Hasan and Al Hussain being the leaders of the youth of paradise is not an Asl of our deen. The number and names of your Imams is an Asl. It cannot be hidden knowledge held by a few. Where is the maslaha in hiding this knowledge? The evidence that the number and names were not known strongly out weighs any other argument.
Have you read the article I linked you to? It isn't long.
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^ You shouldn't be comparing the two. Al Hasan and Al Hussain being the leaders of the youth of paradise is not an Asl of our deen. The number and names of your Imams is an Asl. It cannot be hidden knowledge held by a few. Where is the maslaha in hiding this knowledge? The evidence that the number and names were not known strongly out weighs any other argument.
To add what Farid said, the point made by ex-Shia brother apparently shows that both these cases cannot be compared.
Look at this point:
The main narrator Abu Hashim Dawud b. al-Qasim al-Ja`fari, he also narrates this narration elsewhere where he clearly seems to have no idea who the Imams are. so basically, Abu Hashim himself had thought that Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. Ali al-Hadi was going to be the next Imam until he predeceased his father. at which time “bada” is explained to have occurred. now, had he narrated from al-Jawad a hadith naming all the twelve Imams prior to that, why would he have thought any of this?
So a main narrator of hadeeth Abu Hashim having no idea about next Imam during the death of the elder son of 10th Imam couldn't have narrated a hadeeth from 9th Imam mentioning the name of all twelve Imams. This cannot be compared to the example of Yahya Ibn Maeen not knowing the hadeeth of Hassan(ra) and Hussain(ra) being leaders of youth in paradise.
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Thank you guys. I will research this matter more.