11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.

So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.

Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.

No bro, that's not gonna cut it. Please establish the Hujjah upon brother Farid with regards to your Imams. Post your evidence here, no need for newspapers, make it clear and authentic to establish your sect's Hujjah.

You have 11, you start in order or randomly, one at a time or altogether combined in one verse.

Well what do you consider a hujjah if you reject Shi'i hadith?

[Hani]

Well what do you consider a hujjah if you reject Shi'i hadith?

I didn't say you can't use Shia Hadith to prove it to him, let's see if it stands as a Hujjah. It's up to him to review the evidence.

[Farid]

Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.

So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.

Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.

No bro, that's not gonna cut it. Please establish the Hujjah upon brother Farid with regards to your Imams. Post your evidence here, no need for newspapers, make it clear and authentic to establish your sect's Hujjah.

You have 11, you start in order or randomly, one at a time or altogether combined in one verse.

Well what do you consider a hujjah if you reject Shi'i hadith?

A good place to start is by presenting a narration then explaining why it is a hujjah upon me.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Indeed. Denial of one is like denial of all of them.

So now you basically must establish the Hujjah upon him regarding the 11 others. Please feel free to do so.

Well I believe the Prophet told us who they are. A quick scroll in Shi'i hadith literature and you will find proof.

No bro, that's not gonna cut it. Please establish the Hujjah upon brother Farid with regards to your Imams. Post your evidence here, no need for newspapers, make it clear and authentic to establish your sect's Hujjah.

You have 11, you start in order or randomly, one at a time or altogether combined in one verse.

Well what do you consider a hujjah if you reject Shi'i hadith?

A good place to start is by presenting a narration then explaining why it is a hujjah upon me.

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Zurara, al-Fudayl b. Yasar, Bukayr b. A`yan, Muhammad b. Muslim, Burayd b. Mu`awiya and Abu’l Jarud together from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.

He said: The wilaya of `Ali was an order from Allah عز وجل to His messenger, and He revealed upon him, “Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55). And He made the wilaya of the Possessors of the Command (ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory, and they did not understand what it was; so Allah ordered Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله to interpret [and clarify] the wilaya to them, just as he interpreted salat, zakat, sawm, and Hajj. When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him – so his chest tightened. He consulted his Lord عز وجل, so Allah عز وجل inspired to him, “O Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not preach, it will be as though you have not conveyed My Message, and Allah will protect you from the people”. (5:67) So he executed the command of Allah تعالى ذكره and declared the wilaya of `Ali عليه السلام on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. He called for a congregational prayer and commanded the people to bear testimony and inform the absent.

`Umar b. Udhayna said: All except Abu’l Jarud said:

And Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: And an obligation would be revealed after the other, and the wilaya was the final obligation, so Allah عز وجل revealed, “Today I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favour…” (5:3). Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: Allah عز وجل says: I will not reveal to you any obligation after this – I have completed for you the obligations. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 753)

(hasan) (حسن)

The Imam of the Muslims, my master, Al-Baqir (as), makes it clear what happened on the day of Ghadir Khumm and how the Prophet (saww) clearly appointed his successor, Imam Ali (as), and how he made wilaya the final faridha.

[Farid]

This is not sufficient. It only speaks of one Imam.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

This is not sufficient. It only speaks of one Imam.

In a reliable hadith the Prophet told us that from his Ahlul Bayt there will be 12 muhadaths.

[Hani]

Please, do post it here so we may know it.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Please, do post it here so we may know it.

عن أبي جعفر الباقر(عليه السلام) عن آبائه (عليهم السلام) قال: قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): إن من أهل بيتي اثنى عشر محدثا.

غيبة النعماني

[Farid]

Is that the binding evidence that is going to take me to hellfire for rejecting?! Come on, man. It doesn't even include the names of those that I am supposed to follow.

[Hani]

Doesn't even say to follow them, it says they're Muhaddath (whatever your interpretation of that is), reminds us of the Sunni narration about `Umar being a Muhaddath yet no one equated it to infallibility or authority. No names, no gender even, it could have been one of his daughters or wives.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Doesn't even say to follow them, it says they're Muhaddath (whatever your interpretation of that is), reminds us of the Sunni narration about `Umar being a Muhaddath yet no one equated it to infallibility or authority. No names, no gender even, it could have been one of his daughters or wives.

Don't worry, the hadiths are coming your way. Impatience is not cool.

[Farid]

^ Saying the hujjah has been applied on me is not cool either (without evidence). Take your time.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Muhammad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه from him from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim from al-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. `Ali from his father `Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. `Ali عليه السلام.

He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوات اللّه عليه was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s صلى الله عليه وآله words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. Who, then, is the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen)

(sahih) (صحيح)




`Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from Hamad b. `Uthman from `Isa b. as-Sariy.He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Inform me of the principles that Islam has been built upon; those which if I were to hold to them, my deeds would be purified, and any ignorance thereafter would not harm me. So he said: The testimony that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, and the confirmation that what he had brought was from Allah, and that [the payment of] the money of zakat is a right, and [holding to] the wilaya that Allah عزوجل has ordered – the wilaya of the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله. The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Whoever dies without recognizing his Imam has died the death of jahiliyya. Allah عزوجل says: “O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from amongst you” (4:59). It was `Ali, then after him it was al-Hasan, then after him it was al-Husayn, then after him it was `Ali b. al-Husayn, then after him it was Muhammad b. `Ali then, then this affair [will continue this way]. Verily, the Earth is not suitable except with an Imam, and whoever dies without recognizing his Imam will die the death of jahiliyya. The time when you will need it (i.e. wilaya) most urgently is when you find yourself here – and he pointed at his throat – and the world has been cut off from you, and you say, “I was upon a good affair”.


(sahih) (صحيح)


I would like to thank ShiaChat for all the translations.

[Farid]

^ Even though these narrations are better, they do not identify the names of all the Imams. More importantly, both of them come through the path of Ali bin Ibrahim. Have you heard of this man? I honestly cannot consider him a Muslim. He has a Tafseer in which he claims that the Qur'an has been tampered with. I cannot take knowledge from this man.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

^ Even though these narrations are better, they do not identify the names of all the Imams. More importantly, both of them come through the path of Ali bin Ibrahim. Have you heard of this man? I honestly cannot consider him a Muslim. He has a Tafseer in which he claims that the Qur'an has been tampered with. I cannot take knowledge from this man.

1) There are individual narrations highlighting who will be the next Imam, by the previous Imams themselves. And they are sahih.

2) There is a difference whether the tafsir of Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is really his.

3) But even if I say it is his, I do not consider someone who believes in tahreef to be out of the fold of Islam.

[Farid]

^ Even though these narrations are better, they do not identify the names of all the Imams. More importantly, both of them come through the path of Ali bin Ibrahim. Have you heard of this man? I honestly cannot consider him a Muslim. He has a Tafseer in which he claims that the Qur'an has been tampered with. I cannot take knowledge from this man.

1) There are individual narrations highlighting who will be the next Imam, by the previous Imams themselves. And they are sahih.

2) There is a difference whether the tafsir of Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is really his.

3) But even if I say it is his, I do not consider someone who believes in tahreef to be out of the fold of Islam.

1) The hujjah is not applied on me because of your claim. You need to prove this.

2) Your top scholars claim that it is. The chains indicate that it is by him as well. It is obvious to me that this is the case.

3) Your feelings about this man's religion is irrelevant to me. You are attempting to establish the hujjah upon me, so please do not provide evidences from someone this dubious.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

^ Even though these narrations are better, they do not identify the names of all the Imams. More importantly, both of them come through the path of Ali bin Ibrahim. Have you heard of this man? I honestly cannot consider him a Muslim. He has a Tafseer in which he claims that the Qur'an has been tampered with. I cannot take knowledge from this man.

1) There are individual narrations highlighting who will be the next Imam, by the previous Imams themselves. And they are sahih.

2) There is a difference whether the tafsir of Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is really his.

3) But even if I say it is his, I do not consider someone who believes in tahreef to be out of the fold of Islam.

1) The hujjah is not applied on me because of your claim. You need to prove this.

2) Your top scholars claim that it is. The chains indicate that it is by him as well. It is obvious to me that this is the case.

3) Your feelings about this man's religion is irrelevant to me. You are attempting to establish the hujjah upon me, so please do not provide evidences from someone this dubious.

1) So far what I have established from authentic Shi'a narrations:

- Imamah of a great number of Imams
- There are 12 muhaddaths from Ahlulbayt
- Whoever doesn't recognise the Imam of his time dies the death of jahiliyya

I will bring more proofs for other things.

2) Sayyed Al-Sistani who is a top scholar rejects this. I have heard that Shaykh Asif Muhsini does too, not sure how true that it.

3) That's your problem. You're coming from a Sunni view which is tahreef = kufr rather than a neutral view with no pre-conditional Sunni standards.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Shia like to mention al khoi & sistant etc a lot. Whilst I appreciate that they are importment modern scholars in shi'ism, they came like a thousand years later.
So for me only early scholars should carry weight. Later scholars can verify what earlier scholars might have said but thats all really in this context.

[Farid]

As Zaid bin Ali said, this narrator was accepted as the author of this blasphemy for centuries. As a Sunni, I see no reason to assume that this book was falsely attributed to him. I will not take my deen from someone with such corrupt beliefs. If you are someone that does, then be my guest, but do not assume that the hujjah has been applied on me for rejecting someone this dubious.

I would like to add that Al Khoei strenghened hundreds of narrators based on his acceptance of Tafseer Al Qummi. If he rejected the book or if the book was not accepted by Shias, then he would not have been so lenient.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

As Zaid bin Ali said, this narrator was accepted as the author of this blasphemy for centuries. As a Sunni, I see no reason to assume that this book was falsely attributed to him. I will not take my deen from someone with such corrupt beliefs. If you are someone that does, then be my guest, but do not assume that the hujjah has been applied on me for rejecting someone this dubious.

I would like to add that Al Khoei strenghened hundreds of narrators based on his acceptance of Tafseer Al Qummi. If he rejected the book or if the book was not accepted by Shias, then he would not have been so lenient.

The hujjah has applied to you whether you like it or not, and whether you like the sources or not. Simply hearing about tashayyu is a hujjah in and of itself. Same goes for Islam when it comes to Christians and Jews, if they are not convinced that's their problem.

In anyway, an authentic hadith with a similar wording without Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is also available.