11th Imam Takfir's on the Waqifis.

[Farid]

The hujjah has applied to you whether you like it or not, and whether you like the sources or not. Simply hearing about tashayyu is a hujjah in and of itself. Same goes for Islam when it comes to Christians and Jews, if they are not convinced that's their problem.

In anyway, an authentic hadith with a similar wording without Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is also available.

The comparison is very weak. A more accurate comparison is to say that a Jew and Christian have to accept Mohammad - peace be upon him - as a prophet without any evidences.

You believe that one of the foundations of the deen is adl, yet, you expect Sunnis to accept Shiasm based on narrations that don't list the names of the Imams?! Then we are eternally damned to hellfire because we didn't place our trust in a kaffir that rejects Al Thaql Al Akbar?!

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

The hujjah has applied to you whether you like it or not, and whether you like the sources or not. Simply hearing about tashayyu is a hujjah in and of itself. Same goes for Islam when it comes to Christians and Jews, if they are not convinced that's their problem.

In anyway, an authentic hadith with a similar wording without Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah) is also available.

The comparison is very weak. A more accurate comparison is to say that a Jew and Christian have to accept Mohammad - peace be upon him - as a prophet without any evidences.

You believe that one of the foundations of the deen is adl, yet, you expect Sunnis to accept Shiasm based on narrations that don't list the names of the Imams?! Then we are eternally damned to hellfire because we didn't place our trust in a kaffir that rejects Al Thaql Al Akbar?!

Good points. But I told you we have a narration which is authentically narrated with similar wording without Ali ibn Ibrahim (rah).

[Farid]

You saying that there is evidence from alternative paths is not good enough for me akhi. The hujjah is not applied until you bring me evidence. With all due respect, you are an anonymous user on  message boards.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Safwan b. Yahya from `Isa b. as-Sariy Abu’l Yasa`. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Inform me of the principles of Islam; those which no one can fall short in their recognition of a thing from them, those which if anyone were to fall short in their recognition of a thing from them he would corrupt his religion and his deeds would not be accepted. Those which, if one were to recognize them and act by them, his religion would be correct and his deeds would be accepted; and they would not tighten for him from that which he is ignorant of. So he said: The testimony that there is no god except Allah, and faith that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, and the confirmation that what he had brought was from Allah, and that [the payment of] the money of zakat is a right, and [holding to] the wilaya that Allah عزوجل has ordered – the wilaya of the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله. He said: So I said: Is there anything in the wilaya that is exclusive in virtue for one that holds to it? He said: Yes, Allah عزوجل says: “O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from amongst you” (4:59). And the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Whoever dies without recognizing his Imam has died the death of jahiliyya. That [imam] was the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, then it was `Ali عليه السلام, while the others said, “That was Mu`awiya”. Then it was al-Hasan, then it was al-Husayn, while others said, “Yazid b. Mu`awiya and Husayn b. `Ali”, while they are not equal, they are not equal.He said: Then he was silent. Then he said: Shall I elaborate for you? Hakam al-A`oor said to him: Yes, may I be your ransom. He said: Then it was `Ali b. al-Husayn, then it was Muhammad b. `Ali Abu Ja`far. Before Abu Ja`far, the Shi`a did not know the rules of Hajj, nor of what was permissible for them or what was forbidden for them, until Abu Ja`far; so he opened for them and explained to them the rules of Hajj and what was permissible for them and what was forbidden for them, until the people needed them after they had needed the people. And this is the affair – the Earth does not remain without an Imam, and whoever dies without recognizing his Imam has died the death of jahiliyya. The time when you will need it (i.e. wilaya) most urgently is when you find yourself here – and he pointed at his throat – and the world has been cut off from you, and you say, “I was upon a good affair”.And a similar hadith was narrated from Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from `Isa b. as-Sariyy Abu’l Yasa` from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.
 
(sahih) (صحيح)

It seems hadith by similar wording has been narrated by more than one chain, and that's two that are sahih. Allahu Akbar! Allahuma sale ala Muhammad wa als Muhammad.

[Farid]

Nice try, but allow me to coin a term. The above should be referred to as a "reverse wasiyyah."

The Imamate of someone is not established by a man listing the Imamate of his forefathers, it is through the Imam appointing a son. If one's Imamate is not established, he does not have the authority to establish the Imamate of others.

This is not a hujjah against any Sunni, nor is it a hujjah against any of the Shia sects of old.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Nice try, but allow me to coin a term. The above should be referred to as a "reverse wasiyyah."

The Imamate of someone is not established by a man listing the Imamate of his forefathers, it is through the Imam appointing a son. If one's Imamate is not established, he does not have the authority to establish the Imamate of others.

This is not a hujjah against any Sunni, nor is it a hujjah against any of the Shia sects of old.

What would be a hujjah to you?

I already said I don't think Shi'ism as a whole can be directly proven through Sunni texts, although many Shi'a try to anyway. Sure, there can be discussions over Ghadir Khumm and Hadith Al-Thaqalayn which are a start nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is possible to prove the Imamate of Ali all the way to Al-Mahdi just by Sunni texts alone.

[Farid]

Nice try, but allow me to coin a term. The above should be referred to as a "reverse wasiyyah."

The Imamate of someone is not established by a man listing the Imamate of his forefathers, it is through the Imam appointing a son. If one's Imamate is not established, he does not have the authority to establish the Imamate of others.

This is not a hujjah against any Sunni, nor is it a hujjah against any of the Shia sects of old.

What would be a hujjah to you?

I already said I don't think Shi'ism as a whole can be directly proven through Sunni texts, although many Shi'a try to anyway. Sure, there can be discussions over Ghadir Khumm and Hadith Al-Thaqalayn which are a start nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is possible to prove the Imamate of Ali all the way to Al-Mahdi just by Sunni texts alone.

Of course it is impossible to do through  through Sunni texts, but it seems that you are struggling to provide evidence from Shia texts as well. My issue is your claim that the hujjah has placed upon me and I will be damned for rejecting the "clear evidence".

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Nice try, but allow me to coin a term. The above should be referred to as a "reverse wasiyyah."

The Imamate of someone is not established by a man listing the Imamate of his forefathers, it is through the Imam appointing a son. If one's Imamate is not established, he does not have the authority to establish the Imamate of others.

This is not a hujjah against any Sunni, nor is it a hujjah against any of the Shia sects of old.

What would be a hujjah to you?

I already said I don't think Shi'ism as a whole can be directly proven through Sunni texts, although many Shi'a try to anyway. Sure, there can be discussions over Ghadir Khumm and Hadith Al-Thaqalayn which are a start nonetheless, but I am not sure if it is possible to prove the Imamate of Ali all the way to Al-Mahdi just by Sunni texts alone.

Of course it is impossible to do through  through Sunni texts, but it seems that you are struggling to provide evidence from Shia texts as well. My issue is your claim that the hujjah has placed upon me and I will be damned for rejecting the "clear evidence".

I am not struggling at all. I will bring more proofs in fact from Shi'i hadiths.

As for the last part, please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say you are rejecting any clear evidence at all, but you will still be damned for rejecting tashayyu anyway.

[Farid]

I will be damned to hellfire for eternity even though I am not presented by clear evidences?

I am not struggling at all. I will bring more proofs in fact from Shi'i hadiths.

I'm waiting.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

I will be damned to hellfire for eternity even though I am not presented by clear evidences?

I am not struggling at all. I will bring more proofs in fact from Shi'i hadiths.

I'm waiting.

Do you believe that every kafir has clear evidence of Islam? Then why do you think they are damned to Hell?

[Farid]

Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.

Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.

Let us stick to the topic.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.

Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.

Let us stick to the topic.

You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.

Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?

[MuslimK]

I see you are changing the topic now. The discussion was proving Imamah of the 12 from Shia books that you have so far failed to establish.

[Mythbuster1]

Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.

Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.

Let us stick to the topic.

You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.

Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?

Ibrahomivic is changing goalposts......yet again

I've had that experience with him too, it's a typical Shiite trait, I guess all thanks to the SC team and Islam.org👍👍👍

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.

Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.

Let us stick to the topic.

You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.

Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?

Ibrahomivic is changing goalposts......yet again

I've had that experience with him too, it's a typical Shiite trait, I guess all thanks to the SC team and Islam.org👍👍👍

Not really. I admitted I cannot prove Imamah as a hujjah to him. I admitted my stance.

So now we move onto a different subject. As for it being a trait of mine, says a guy who thinks Ahmadinejad is an authority for the Shi'a. Lol.

[Mythbuster1]

Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.

Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.

Let us stick to the topic.

You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.

Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?

Ibrahomivic is changing goalposts......yet again

I've had that experience with him too, it's a typical Shiite trait, I guess all thanks to the SC team and Islam.org👍👍👍

Not really. I admitted I cannot prove Imamah as a hujjah to him. I admitted my stance.

So now we move onto a different subject. As for it being a trait of mine, says a guy who thinks Ahmadinejad is an authority for the Shi'a. Lol.

Didn't say that you liar, at least now I can call you khadab without guilt.

You couldn't prove no hujjah upon him then you changed subject

Keep at it khadab👍

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

I see you are changing the topic now. The discussion was proving Imamah of the 12 from Shia books that you have so far failed to establish.

Well I changed the topic because I admit I cannot bring a hujjah to Mr. Farid. I will continue bring Shi'i hadith for the rest of the users, so stay tuned.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Yes. I believe that everyone that is damned will be damned after rejecting clear evidences.

Allah says that He will not punish without sending a messenger. This is explicit.

Let us stick to the topic.

You are bringing up an important principle and I don't believe you can brush it aside to easily. I don't believe I can prove Imamah as a whole from Sunni books. So let's say I cannot bring clear evidences to you.

Can you prove tasannun to me? And if you can't, will I be damned to Hell?

Ibrahomivic is changing goalposts......yet again

I've had that experience with him too, it's a typical Shiite trait, I guess all thanks to the SC team and Islam.org👍👍👍

Not really. I admitted I cannot prove Imamah as a hujjah to him. I admitted my stance.

So now we move onto a different subject. As for it being a trait of mine, says a guy who thinks Ahmadinejad is an authority for the Shi'a. Lol.

Didn't say that you liar, at least now I can call you khadab without guilt.

You couldn't prove no hujjah upon him then you changed subject

Keep at it khadab👍

"Khadab"? What's that? And yes you did say that, so stop lying.

Yes, I couldn't bring a hujjah to him, I admit that.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Hisham b. Salim from Jabir b. Yazeed al-Ju`fi from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said:

A question was asked about the Qa’im عليه السلام, so he tapped Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام with his hand. Then, he said: This, by Allah, is a Qa’im of the Family of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله.

Anbasa said: So when Abu Ja`far عليه السلام had passed away, I entered upon Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام and I informed him of that. So he said: Jabir told the truth. He then said: Lest you think that every Imam [that comes] after the preceding Imam is not the Qa’im. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 789)

(sahih) (صحيح)

Sahih hadith proving the designation Imam Al-Sadiq (as) as the Imam. Therefore this proves the hujjiyah of the words of Imam Al-Sadiq (as) in the previous narrations.

Translation was done by the imamiyya website.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Authentic hadith which shows Al-Khidr (as) knew who the Imams (as) are/will be:

Several of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad al-Barqi from Abi Hisham Dawud b. al-Qasim al-Ja`fari from Abu Ja`far the Second عليه السلام.

He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام came with al-Hasan b. `Ali عليه السلام and he was leaning on the hand of Salman [for support]. So he entered the Sacred Mosque and sat down, when a good looking and well-dressed man met him. He gavesalaam to Amir al-Mu’mineen, and he عليه السلام answered him, so he sat. He then said: O Amir al-Mu’mineen, I will ask you three questions. If you inform me of their answers, I will acknowledge that the community that mounted your affair have acted against their own selves. Their actions have taken peace away from them in the world and in the hereafter. If it would be otherwise, then you and they will be the same. So Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said to him: Ask me whatever you wish. He said: Inform me of the man who sleeps – where does his soul go? Inform me of the man – how does he remember and forget? Inform me of the man – how do his children become similar to the aunts and uncles? So Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام turned to al-Hasan and said: O Abu Muhammad, answer him. He said: So al-Hasan عليه السلام answered him.

The man then said: I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and I persist in this testimony. I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and I persist in this testimony. I bear witness that you are the deputy of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and the one presiding by his authority – and he pointed to Amir al-Mu’mineen – and I persist in this testimony. And I bear witness that you are his deputy and the riser to his authority – and he pointed to al-Hasan عليه السلام – and I bear witness that al-Husayn b. `Ali is a deputy and the riser to his authority after him. And I bear witness that `Ali b. al-Husayn is the riser to his authority after him. And I bear witness that Muhammad b. `Ali is the riser to authority of `Ali b. al-Husayn. And I bear witness that Ja`far b. Muhammad is the riser to the authority of Muhammad [b. `Ali]. And I bear witness that Musa [b. Ja`far] is the riser to the authority of Ja`far b. Muhammad. And I bear witness that `Ali b. Musa is the riser to the authority of Musa b. Ja`far. And I bear witness that Muhammad b. `Ali is the riser to the authority of `Ali b. Musa. And I bear witness that `Ali b. Muhammad is the riser to the authority of Muhammad b. `Ali. And I bear witness that al-Hasan b. `Ali is the riser to the authority of `Ali b. Muhammad. And I bear witness that a man from the children of al-Hasan [will succeed him]; he is not mentioned by kunya or by name until he appears and fills the world with equity and justice as it would be fraught with injustice. And may His peace be upon you, O Amir al-Mu’mineen, and His mercy and His blessings. He then stood up and left. Amir al-Mu’mineen said: O Abu Muhammad, follow him and find where he went.

So al-Hasan b. `Ali عليهما السلام left and said: As soon as the man left the mosque, I could not see what direction of the Earth of Allah he had gone. So he went to Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام and informed him, so he said: O Abu Muhammad, do you know who he is? I said: Allah, His Messenger, and Amir al-Mu’mineen are more knowledgeable. He said: He is al-Khidr عليه السلام. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 1377)

(sahih) (صحيح)