Here is a debate a 12er Shia posted a few days ago boasting about how his imam was so knowledgeable and victorious in the case of Muta.
This dialogue is very interesting in answering some of the crude and anomalous objections some bring against Muta. Especially the response to the question would you be happy for your women to do it.
It is reported that Abdullah Ibn Ma’mar al-Laythiyya challenged Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) – I have been informed that you permit the temporary marriage (mut’ah).
Imam (a.s.) – Allah permits it in his Book and the Prophet’s (s.a.w.a.) tradition (Sunnah) affirms it and the companions acted on it.
Abdullah: However, Umar prohibited it.
Imam (a.s.) – You are on the instruction of your companion and I am on the tradition of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.).
Abdullah – Are you satisfied to see your women indulge in it?
Imam (a.s.) – There is no need for bringing women in this discussion, O idiot. Surely the one who has legalized it in His Book and has permitted it for His Servants has more jealousy (with regards women engaging in mut’ah) than you and the one who has vociferously prohibited it (Umar). Rather, would you be pleased with one of your women marrying one of the weavers of Medina?
Abdullah: No!
Imam (a.s.): Why do you deem it impermissible while Allah has permitted it?
Abdullah: I do not deem it impermissible but a weaver has no (eligible) partner.
Imam (a.s.): Surely Allah is pleased with his action and desires it (for him). And he will marry him to a houri. Then you should desire what Allah desires and seek a partner for the one who will partner the fairy of the gardens of Paradise.
Abdullah laughed and said: Nothing is gathered in your chest except the planting places of trees of knowledge. They are fruits for you and sustenance for the people.
In response instead of debating whether Muta is permissible or not, I told the 12er Shia yes some sahaba did see Muta
as halaal but there are still some issued.
The issues are:
a) The 4th Imams refer to Umar as ' your companion.' How can Umar be the questioner's companion. Was the Imam trying to mock him?
b) When the questioner asks to go into the fiqhi debate, the Imams gets angry and calls the questioner an idiot. Is this the language of an infallible Imam?
c) In Fiqh asking questions are common. Just look at how the 9th imam replies whenever he was asked a question. He goes into more fiqhi depths by putting forward more question. Yet when a non-Rafida asks a question he is an idiot or the question is stupid?
d) There are fiqhi hadith which do answer how women should be treated in regards to muta. Yet in this debate the 4th Imam slanders the questioners and tries to end it.
After making these points I posted other hadith from tashayyu.org
4 – And from a number of our companions from Sahl b. Ziyad from Muhammad b. al-Hasan b. Shammun. He said: Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام wrote to some of his supporters: Do not insist on mut`a, only the establishment of the Sunna is upon you. So do not preoccupy (yourself) with it from your beds and free (women), then they would do kufr and bara’at and call upon the authorities to you by that, and they would curse us.
5 – And from them from Sahl from `Ali b. Asbat and Muhammad b. al-Husayn all from al-Hakam b. Miskeen from `Ammar. He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to me and Sulayman b. Khalid: I have forbidden mut`a upon you two by me so long as you remain in Madina, for you have increased your entering in upon me and I fear that they take you and it be said: These are the companions of Ja`far.
1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad and `Abdullah the two sons of Muhammad b. `Isa from `Ali b. al-Hakam from Ziyad b. Abi ‘l-Halal. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: There is no harm with doing mut`a with the virgin so long as he does not consummate with her [out of fear of – in al-Kafi] the dislike of shame upon her family.
10 – And by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya from Ya`qub b. Yazid from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hafs b. al-Bakhtari from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding the man who marries the virgin in mut`a. He said: It is disliked due to the shame upon her family.
11 – And from him from Muhammad b. `Isa from al-Fadl [al-Fudayl – in al-Istibsar] b. Kathir al-Mada’ini from al-Muhallab the auctioneer that he wrote to Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام: A woman was with me in the house, then she married herself to me and called Allah and His angels to witness that. Then, her father married her to another man, so what do you say? So he عليه السلام wrote: Permanent marriage is not but with a wali and two witnesses, and mut`a marriage is not with a virgin. Cover yourself and conceal, may Allah have mercy on you.
I said: The Shaykh interpreted it to be upon taqiyya.
4 – And by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya from Muhamamd b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan b. Yahya from Ibrahim b. Muhammad al-Ash`ari from Ibrahim b. Muhriz al-Khath`ami from Muhammad b. Muslim. He said: I asked him about the girl, does the man do mut`a with her? He said: Yes, unless she is a child who is duped. He said: I said: May Allah make you prosper, and what is the bound that when she reaches it she is not duped? He said: A girl of ten years.
Right after I posted these hadith, the 12er Shia deleted my replies. I thought maybe it was an internet connection issue. So I posted the hadith again. Once again the 12er Shia deletes my replies.
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February 23, 2015, 04:47:41 AM