A religion of excuses and reactions

[MuslimK]

Salaam brother.
Your first question; Why did Ali (ra) not return fadak during his reign and in his leadership???
What is the meaning and purpose of your question??? Do you mean, when Ali (as) came in to power why didn't he use his authority and strength to take back fadak??? To take back what belonged to him???

Walaikum Salam,

The purpose of the thread is clear and already mentioned in the opening post. The purpose is to list Shia excuses and answers to the major issues and also to show the contradictions in their excuses.

Can't you see the list of Shia excuses the brother listed?

[Hani]

If your beliefs weren't so nonsensical they wouldn't even require this many excuses.


If I ask "Why did `Ali name his children after the Caliphs?" I'm sure you'd give us a couple of brilliant excuses yourself.

[Ameen]

If your beliefs weren't so nonsensical they wouldn't even require this many excuses.


If I ask "Why did `Ali name his children after the Caliphs?" I'm sure you'd give us a couple of brilliant excuses yourself.

I know, every reply would be seen as a brilliant excuse to you. That's exactly the problem that we have with your kind. But you know what, it doesn't matter how many questions you ask and what ever you throw towards the Ahle Tashee, they are and will always be there to answer. It's down to you what ever you see their answers and replies as and which ever desired direction you take them towards. You will get answers and replies, that's for sure. But When it comes to your kind, just one question, yes the very first question would nock you out cold. And that is,
WHICH SUNNI ARE YOU AND WHY? No body has dared to answer and this is the beginning and the end for your kind. You can't even move from here but you talk big. Bring on your list of excuse one by one. I put forward the first one. What are you going to do??? Ban me or take me on, like true gentlemen???

[Hani]

it doesn't matter how many questions you ask and what ever you throw towards the Ahle Tashee, they are and will always be there to answer.

I know you'll always answer, even if the answer is the lamest answer in the world, this is the sign of stubborn ones.



Note: It's Ahlul-Tashayyu`, not Ahle Tashee, there is no such thing as Ahle Tashee.

WHICH SUNNI ARE YOU AND WHY? No body has dared to answer and this is the beginning and the end for your kind. You can't even move from here but you talk big. Bring on your list of excuse one by one. I put forward the first one. What are you going to do??? Ban me or take me on, like true gentlemen???

I'm the Sunni who destroys your sect because that is Allah's Will.

Now I suggest you open your own thread in its rightful category, so as to not derail this topic, should you not open it in its rightful category expect it to be erased until you learn how to organize your questions.

[Ameen]

it doesn't matter how many questions you ask and what ever you throw towards the Ahle Tashee, they are and will always be there to answer.

I know you'll always answer, even if the answer is the lamest answer in the world, this is the sign of stubborn ones.



Note: It's Ahlul-Tashayyu`, not Ahle Tashee, there is no such thing as Ahle Tashee.

WHICH SUNNI ARE YOU AND WHY? No body has dared to answer and this is the beginning and the end for your kind. You can't even move from here but you talk big. Bring on your list of excuse one by one. I put forward the first one. What are you going to do??? Ban me or take me on, like true gentlemen???

I'm the Sunni who destroys your sect because that is Allah's Will.

Now I suggest you open your own thread in its rightful category, so as to not derail this topic, should you not open it in its rightful category expect it to be erased until you learn how to organize your questions.

Lamest answer in the world??? Since when did you become the world??? Or the spokesman for the world??? Lame according to you just as the title of this thread and your list of excuses are lame to me. But you don't see me getting all irritated, so keep your shirt on.

Your the Sunni who destroys my sect because that is Allah's will??? LOL! Since when did you become Allah's will??? I told you that this one question, the very first question would knock you out. You talk big! You need to learn to respect others because this is your biggest problem. Now lets stick to your thread.

[Ameen]

al-Salamu `Aleykum,

This will be a big topic, and let me explain why.

Islam as we know it is a religion of strong evidence and clear proofs.

Let's talk about Tashayyu` though...

As you all know the Shia religious beliefs usually make no sense and are in complete contradiction to Qur'an, Sunnah and established historical facts.

When our early scholars bombarded them with strong evidence, leaders of the Imamiyyah resorted to fabricating excuses in their ancient books, and for each attack they fabricated a non-convincing excuse and sometimes they are forced to make up other excuses to cover up the first excuse.

This dear brothers is why the topic will be big, because Tashayyu` is a reactionary religion full of excuses. Their beliefs are so contradictory and even their excuses come out as contradictory.

What we're going to do, is that I'll list a bunch of titles, each title is problematic for Imami faith, under each title I'll list as many excuses as I can gather (listing the sources if possible) in a very simple brief way.

I want you guys to contribute and I shall update this post with all your contributions if they are correct and follow the format below.

WHY DID `ALI NOT RETURN FADAK IN HIS REIGN AND DURING HIS LEADERSHIP?

-We Ahlul-Bayt do not take back anything which was taken away from us unjustly or through oppression. [`Ilal al-Shara'i`]

-He hated to take back something that Allah has already punished its usurper and rewarded the one who was oppressed. [`Ilal al-Shara'i`]

-If I were to take back Fadak and return it to Fatimah's children, my army would have turned against me because I changed `Umar's Sunnah and some would have rebelled. [al-Kafi]

-People thought that Fadak was public property for 25 years, if he gives it to his children they'll accuse him of corruption. [rafed.net]

-He was going to spend its money on the poor and needy in any case so it makes no difference, thus he never returned it. [rafed.net]

-What shall I do: Fadak, or no Fadak, while tomorrow this body is to go into the grave in whose darkness its traces will be destroyed and (even) news of it will disappear? (Meaning, he will die anyway so why bother returning it) [Nahj-ul-Balagha]

-He did not return Fadak, because he did not wish that people think that he asked for the Khilafah for the sake of material gain. [Ayatulla al-Tabrizi]

-He did not care for the materialistic matters nor the decorations of the worldly life. Since he is the owner, he can drop his right and no one can question him. [yahosein.net member]

-It is not known whether he took it back and gave the family of Fatimah its produce or kept it the way it was because of the circumstances at the time. [Ayatulla Rouhani, istefta.com]

-He did return it and all else is ignorance. He was the leader so all the produce that goes into Bayt-ul-Maal is under his control. [Yasir al-Habeeb, video lecture]

-He did not return Fadak nor did he change the rulings (of those before him) because he even in his position of Khalifah was in a state of extreme Taqiyyah. [Sayyid al-Murtada, al-Shafi]

-Maybe he and his family decided to make it a Waqf, they used to spend its produce on the Muslims. [Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr, Fadak fil-Tareekh]

-Previous Khulafa' placed the land in possession of evil people from bani Umayyah, had he restored it by force these people would have reacted with open opposition, and spread rumours, Fitnah and hatred against the Imam. [shiapen.com]

-He was busy with priorities, such as overcoming social poverty, unemployment, alienation, criminality, nepotism... Fadak was a personal matter of low priority to him as a leader. [shiapen.com]

-He promised Rasul-Allah (saw) to not kill his opponents, returning it by force would have led to him killing Marwan. [shiapen.com]

-Fear that people would apostate if he were to take Fadak back. Just as fear of disputes and return to Jahiliyya prevented him from claiming his right of Khilafat back, the same applied to the Fadak dispute. [shiapen.com]

-The Caliph offered it to Musa bin Ja`far, but he said he would not accept it from him unless he gave him the entire piece of land, he claimed its borders (Fafak's) stretches from Africa to Yemen to Samarqand. [al-Kafi & Ja`far al-Subhani in al-Adwa']

-Due to the Fadak incident, Fatimah left this world in anger. He didn't want to reduce the anger of Fatimah by taking Fadak back. [Noorullah al-Tusturi, Majalis al-Mu'mineen]

-He never took Fadak back by sword because this family never use sword for their personal benefits. [Noorullah al-Tusturi, Majalis al-Mu'mineen]

WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE 12th IMAM'S GHAYBAH?

-He feared he would be killed by the Khalifah's soldiers. [Ghaybat al-Tusi]

-He did not wish to give Bay`ah to the oppressors as his fathers did. [`Ilal al-Shara'i`]

-To follow the Sunnah of previous prophets, such as `Isa (as) and Khadir (as). [Kamal-ul-Deen]

-He does not have companions with good qualities equal to the amount of the people of Badr [al-Mufid, Rasa’il al-Ghaybah].

-As a test from God, those who believe in Ghaybah are true believers. [Bihar-ul-Anwar]

-Allah deprived us of him because of our corruption. [Ghaybat-ul-Tusi]

-For a wisdom only Allah knows. [Center of Belief Research, aqaed.com & Ghaybat-ul-Tusi]

-Until all the believers who are born from the hypocrites have come into existence, then after it he shall appear and he won't forgive any denier. [Noorullah al-Tusturi, Majalis al-Mu'mineen]

WHY DID `ALI MARRY-OFF HIS DAUGHTER TO `UMAR?

-It wasn't his daughter, he told a Jewish Jinn female to marry `Umar in shape of his daughter. [Kashani, al-Wafi]

-`Umar threatened to accuse him of theft, so he had to marry her off to the Kafir to avoid physical harm. [al-Kafi]

-al-Zubayr bin Bakkar fabricated this story, no marriage took place. [al-Masa'il al-Sarawiyyah, al-Mufid]

-`Umar was not a Kafir, he was apparently Muslim so the marriage is legitimate and no one can blame `Ali. [al-Muhaqqiq al-Sha`rani, al-Wafi]

-There was a confusion, this was Umm Kulthoum the daughter of Abu Bakr, not `Ali. [shiachat.com]

-Many narrations show that they were enemies, so he can't have married her to him. [shiachat.com]

-The narration in the Shia books was said as Taqiyyah. [alqatrah.net, Yasir al-Habib]

-`Umar raped her without her guardian's consent, it was al-`Abbas who was responsible for this. [alqatrah.net]



WHY DID THE PROPHET (saw) NOT MENTION `ALI'S IMAMAH AT THE FAREWELL HAJJ?


-He wanted to announce it in Madinah as he would have the support of the Ansar. [Sira` Quraysh ma` al-Nabi, `Ali al-Kourani]

-He feared the people would say he favored his cousin. [Tafseer al-`Ayyashi]

-The people were new to Islam so he feared they would say things about him. [al-Kafi]

-He feared the people would accuse him of lying. [Tafseer al-Meezan]

-Because Ghadeer was a strategic location where Muslims would gather then disperse to their lands. [The Thaqalayn Muslim Association]

-He chose a different location so that the matter of "Leadership"does not become lost among many other statements at `Arafat. [ghadir786.com]

-The people were tired from Hajj so he chose Ghadeer to give them a fresh start and distinctive attention. [ghadir786.com]

-Maybe because the people were busy with the rites of Hajj but later at Ghadeer they weren't occupied. [Ayatulla Muslim al-Dawuri]

-He feared they would reject faith and return to disbelief. [Tafseer al-Safi]

-He feared they would harm or kill him. [Tafseer Bayan al-Sa`adah lil-Janabidhi]

-He had already said it enough times that there was no point in saying it again. [Shia member on our forum]

Salaam brother.
Your first question; Why did Ali (ra) not return fadak during his reign and in his leadership???
What is the meaning and purpose of your question??? Do you mean, when Ali (as) came in to power why didn't he use his authority and strength to take back fadak??? To take back what belonged to him???

Why did Ali (ra) not return fadak in his reign and during his Khilaafath? So what do you exactly mean by this??? Do you mean why did Ali (as) not use his power to take back fadak when he was in authority??? Is this what you mean??? Care to elaborate???

[Hani]

Actually I have a much more important question, MUST YOU QUOTE THE ENTIRE OPENING POST EVERY TIME YOU ASK A QUESTION!?

[Ameen]

Actually I have a much more important question, MUST YOU QUOTE THE ENTIRE OPENING POST EVERY TIME YOU ASK A QUESTION!?

No problem brother. What ever makes you happy. So are you going to tell me what you mean by, why Ali (ra) didn't return fadak in his reign and during his Khilaafath??? Or are we going to be running in circles and jumping from one thing on to the other???

[Hani]

No problem brother. What ever makes you happy. So are you going to tell me what you mean by, why Ali (ra) didn't return fadak in his reign and during his Khilaafath??? Or are we going to be running in circles and jumping from one thing on to the other???

The one who runs in circles is the one who knows exactly what the matter is about yet plays dumb and asks for "elaboration".


Did Fatimah (as) own Fadak in Abu Bakr's reign? Surely not as it remained public property.


Did `Ali when he became in authority, did he make Fadak exclusive for Fatimah's (as) heirs or did he leave it as public property?


Your scholars above said NO, he left it as it is in Abu Bakr's time.


Each of the above excuses are explanations by Shia as to WHY he left it as it is without returning it.

[Taha]

^ Well, Fatimah (sa) was already dead, was she not? 

[Ameen]

No problem brother. What ever makes you happy. So are you going to tell me what you mean by, why Ali (ra) didn't return fadak in his reign and during his Khilaafath??? Or are we going to be running in circles and jumping from one thing on to the other???

The one who runs in circles is the one who knows exactly what the matter is about yet plays dumb and asks for "elaboration".


Did Fatimah (as) own Fadak in Abu Bakr's reign? Surely not as it remained public property.


Did `Ali when he became in authority, did he make Fadak exclusive for Fatimah's (as) heirs or did he leave it as public property?


Your scholars above said NO, he left it as it is in Abu Bakr's time.


Each of the above excuses are explanations by Shia as to WHY he left it as it is without returning it.

This is your opinion my friend, not mine. To me these are just excuses to make the first Khalif (ra) look nice and better. So I'm sure we both know who is playing dumb and why. But it would be nice if you kept the sarcasm out of it and to yourself. Hazrath Fatimah Zahra (as) didn't own Fadak during the first Khalif's (ra) time because he ceased it and questioned her over it. Now the answer to your first ridiculous excuse, Hazrath Ali (as) didn't take Fadak because according to Ali (as), with great authority comes great responsibility. Authority and power is not there for you personal use, as certain Muslim leaders thought and acted. secondly fadak belonged to Hazrath Fatimah (as), now if justice wasn't done to her then, she (as) isn't around and neither is the first Khalif (ra), so Hazrath Ali (as) acts responsibly and wisely. And he was also an Imam according to us. You really need to learn and understand what Shia Imamath is all about.

[Hani]

This is your opinion my friend, not mine. To me these are just excuses to make the first Khalif (ra) look nice and better. So I'm sure we both know who is playing dumb and why. But it would be nice if you kept the sarcasm out of it and to yourself. Hazrath Fatimah Zahra (as) didn't own Fadak during the first Khalif's (ra) time because he ceased it and questioned her over it. Now the answer to your first ridiculous excuse, Hazrath Ali (as) didn't take Fadak because according to Ali (as), with great authority comes great responsibility. Authority and power is not there for you personal use, as certain Muslim leaders thought and acted. secondly fadak belonged to Hazrath Fatimah (as), now if justice wasn't done to her then, she (as) isn't around and neither is the first Khalif (ra), so Hazrath Ali (as) acts responsibly and wisely. And he was also an Imam according to us. You really need to learn and understand what Shia Imamath is all about.

Although off topic, since you refuse to open a separate thread.


Your excuse based on the list I provided above is one of the weakest, which is why I'll add it to the list, if you check the list now you'll find your excuse right there.


Now let me tell you WHY your excuse is incorrect and faulty, `Ali is the political Imam, an Imam's purpose and mission is to apply justice whether it benefits him or harms him.


If Fadak belonged to Fatimah (as), her children should inherit it afterwards, thus `Ali MUST return the land to all of Fatimah's heirs otherwise he oppressed them.


Therefore, `Ali's judgement was incorrect and he oppressed the legitimate heirs by depriving them of their inheritance.

[Ameen]

This is your opinion my friend, not mine. To me these are just excuses to make the first Khalif (ra) look nice and better. So I'm sure we both know who is playing dumb and why. But it would be nice if you kept the sarcasm out of it and to yourself. Hazrath Fatimah Zahra (as) didn't own Fadak during the first Khalif's (ra) time because he ceased it and questioned her over it. Now the answer to your first ridiculous excuse, Hazrath Ali (as) didn't take Fadak because according to Ali (as), with great authority comes great responsibility. Authority and power is not there for you personal use, as certain Muslim leaders thought and acted. secondly fadak belonged to Hazrath Fatimah (as), now if justice wasn't done to her then, she (as) isn't around and neither is the first Khalif (ra), so Hazrath Ali (as) acts responsibly and wisely. And he was also an Imam according to us. You really need to learn and understand what Shia Imamath is all about.

Although off topic, since you refuse to open a separate thread.


Your excuse based on the list I provided above is one of the weakest, which is why I'll add it to the list, if you check the list now you'll find your excuse right there.


Now let me tell you WHY your excuse is incorrect and faulty, `Ali is the political Imam, an Imam's purpose and mission is to apply justice whether it benefits him or harms him.


If Fadak belonged to Fatimah (as), her children should inherit it afterwards, thus `Ali MUST return the land to all of Fatimah's heirs otherwise he oppressed them.


Therefore, `Ali's judgement was incorrect and he oppressed the legitimate heirs by depriving them of their inheritance.

Take a look very clearly, nothing is off thread or off topic. It is a reply to your posts, so accuse your posts of being off thread and topic. Ali must do this, Ali's judgement was incorrect, these are just your words based on what you think. Weakest??? Let me tell you who and what is weakest, those people who are so afraid and scared to introduce themselves that, this is who we are and this is our faith, those people who slander others belief and faith because they can't declare and promote their own is who and what is weak. Hazrath Ali (as) acted responsibly and wisely. He was a man who put the welfare of Islam and the benefit of the Muslims first. This is what a true Khalifathul Muslimeen is all about. You and I both clearly know what fadak is all about but one has to save the reputation of the first Khalif (ra). I understand your stance and motive.

[Hani]

Take a look very clearly, nothing is off thread or off topic. It is a reply to your posts, so accuse your posts of being off thread and topic. Ali must do this, Ali's judgement was incorrect, these are just your words based on what you think. Weakest??? Let me tell you who and what is weakest, those people who are so afraid and scared to introduce themselves that, this is who we are and this is our faith, those people who slander others belief and faith because they can't declare and promote their own is who and what is weak. Hazrath Ali (as) acted responsibly and wisely. He was a man who put the welfare of Islam and the benefit of the Muslims first. This is what a true Khalifathul Muslimeen is all about. You and I both clearly know what fadak is all about but one has to save the reputation of the first Khalif (ra). I understand your stance and motive.

Oki Doki = )


As you wish, `Ali acted "responsibly and wisely" hehe..  ; D

[Ameen]

Take a look very clearly, nothing is off thread or off topic. It is a reply to your posts, so accuse your posts of being off thread and topic. Ali must do this, Ali's judgement was incorrect, these are just your words based on what you think. Weakest??? Let me tell you who and what is weakest, those people who are so afraid and scared to introduce themselves that, this is who we are and this is our faith, those people who slander others belief and faith because they can't declare and promote their own is who and what is weak. Hazrath Ali (as) acted responsibly and wisely. He was a man who put the welfare of Islam and the benefit of the Muslims first. This is what a true Khalifathul Muslimeen is all about. You and I both clearly know what fadak is all about but one has to save the reputation of the first Khalif (ra). I understand your stance and motive.

Oki Doki = )


As you wish, `Ali acted "responsibly and wisely" hehe..  ; D

It's got nothing to do with what I wish because according to you and your kind Shias are considered as rafidhas and devils. It's also got nothing to do with hehehe either. Was fadak a religious issue??? No it wasn't. It had nothing to do with Usool e Deen and Faroo e Deen. Was it a political issue or a matter of the state??? No it wasn't. It was a private issue and affair. To be continued!

[Hani]

It's got nothing to do with what I wish because according to you and your kind Shias are considered as rafidhas and devils. It's also got nothing to do with hehehe either. Was fadak a religious issue??? No it wasn't. It had nothing to do with Usool e Deen and Faroo e Deen. Was it a political issue or a matter of the state??? No it wasn't. It was a private issue and affair. To be continued!

Ooh sure sure.. = )

Sooo since it's a private matter, you need to prove that Hasan, Husayn, Zaynab and Umm Kulthoum dropped their right and agreed to keep Fadak public property. If not `Ali had to overrule Abu Bakr's judgement and turn Fadak from a government run land to private property for Banu Hashim.

Otherwise his judgement is incorrect and oppressive.

Now people may say, that since according to Shia it was the Prophet (saw) who ordered before he died that Fadak become property of Fatimah and since Fatimah asked for it in her life and she never dropped her right and died angry... some people may say that Yeah it kinda is a religious matter in a sense, in another sense it is not up to `Ali to drop other people's rights.

To be continued!

I'm eagerly awaiting part 2 of this baseless fairy-tale you're coming up with as you go along.

[Ameen]

It's got nothing to do with what I wish because according to you and your kind Shias are considered as rafidhas and devils. It's also got nothing to do with hehehe either. Was fadak a religious issue??? No it wasn't. It had nothing to do with Usool e Deen and Faroo e Deen. Was it a political issue or a matter of the state??? No it wasn't. It was a private issue and affair. To be continued!

Ooh sure sure.. = )

Sooo since it's a private matter, you need to prove that Hasan, Husayn, Zaynab and Umm Kulthoum dropped their right and agreed to keep Fadak public property. If not `Ali had to overrule Abu Bakr's judgement and turn Fadak from a government run land to private property for Banu Hashim.

Otherwise his judgement is incorrect and oppressive.

Now people may say, that since according to Shia it was the Prophet (saw) who ordered before he died that Fadak become property of Fatimah and since Fatimah asked for it in her life and she never dropped her right and died angry... some people may say that Yeah it kinda is a religious matter in a sense, in another sense it is not up to `Ali to drop other people's rights.

To be continued!

I'm eagerly awaiting part 2 of this baseless fairy-tale you're coming up with as you go along.

Baseless fairy tale??? Calm down. this is not the way to behave with someone you challenge. Your whole website is based on this misfortune of yours, since you can't declare and introduce yourself and promote your own Aeedah. for arguemental reasons lets say that Shiaism is wrong and false, what then??? My question to you was, what is the purpose of this site??? What are you trying to prove and achieve here??? Shiaism is false and wrong??? What then??? what's next??? what are your plans then??? What's the alternative??? Or don't you have one??? Are you going to turn around and say to the audience,"look guys, Shiaism is false and wrong, so become Ahle Sunnah" Or are you going to say "we have shown you what they are and this is who, what and why we are what we are" Who you are, what you are and why you are, if you had this with in you from day one, right from the very start then, you wouldn't waste so much time and energy in trying to make others look bad and ugly. Any ways, i would love to take on your challenge and that is what we shall focus on.

[Hani]

Haha O-K


I dunno when it was that I challenged YOU, but whatever you wish to discuss we'll discuss, just NOT on this thread, open a separate thread for Fadak if you still wish to continue your attempts.


No more posts by you are allowed on this thread, you've wasted enough of its pages.

[Ameen]

Brother Hani, fadak was a personal and domestic issue between Hazrath Fatimah (as) and Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra). These were close relatives and no strangers. There are two sides to every argument, so i would advise you to balance the argument and put the "I am Mr Right attitude and the sarcastic behaviour" of yours on one side. One side of the story is that fadak belonged to the Messenger (pbuh) and he gave fadak to his daughter, Hazrath Fatimah (as), in his life time. Why??? Because a verse was revealed, which i will put forward. Due to this verse the Prophet (pbuh) gave Fatimah (as) fadak. Now fadak remained as Fatimah's (as) property during her lifetime. After the Messenger's (pbuh) demise the issue of fadak wasn't brought to surface but the issue of who will govern the Ummah and how was the prime concern. A gathering in Sakeefa took place, a meeting was held and due to the result of that meeting Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was made and accepted as Khalifatul Muslimeen. The next issue was to get everybody to agree to the gathering, meeting and the decision made in Sakeefa. Because a clear dispute arose within the Ummah, amongst the companions of how Sakeefa was conducted. not everyone was present in Sakeefa and no one was informed about this, never mind about being consulted. the fadak issue came well after this. The other side of the argument you are very familiar with. if this is a fairy tale my friend then, so is that. We can either discuss this like mature adults or you can continue with your childish behaviour. the decision is yours.

[Ameen]

Haha O-K


I dunno when it was that I challenged YOU, but whatever you wish to discuss we'll discuss, just NOT on this thread, open a separate thread for Fadak if you still wish to continue your attempts.


No more posts by you are allowed on this thread, you've wasted enough of its pages.

Is this the best you can do??? LOL!