Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice

[Hani]

Salam `Aleykum,


Let's start a fun little topic here, I will help Imami member Ameen by opening this thread just for him, pick any topic you want and I will discuss it with you or even debate you on it if you wish.

[Ameen]

Ok. Once again. Lest start off with a simple and brief introduction. Which school of faith do you belong to?? Hanfi, Maliki, Shafi or Hambali?? Which political movement do you belong to?? Wahabi, Salafi, Deobandi, Barelvi or Ahle Hadees??

Just want to get to know you, so I have a clear understanding about who I am up against and dealing with. I hope you have the strength and courage to go ahead with this rather than deleting this straight forward introduction again. Lets see!

[Hani]

Hello my name is Hani, I am in my 20s, Born Lebanese, I started out as Shafi`i making Taqleed of my brother, now I'm a "whateveri" because I look things up myself and reach my own conclusions, I do not belong to any "movements" or sects.


How about you?

[Hani]

Bumped for Ameen.


Did you decide what you want to discuss/debate?

[Ameen]

Bumped for Ameen.


Did you decide what you want to discuss/debate?

Thank you very much for the introduction. That wasn't too dificult, was it??? Certain brothers just go all pale in the name of introduction.

Anyways Shiaism has been accused as the religion of Kufr and Shirk. Can some explain this. How???

[Hani]

Bumped for Ameen.


Did you decide what you want to discuss/debate?

Thank you very much for the introduction. That wasn't too dificult, was it??? Certain brothers just go all pale in the name of introduction.

Anyways Shiaism has been accused as the religion of Kufr and Shirk. Can some explain this. How???

Do you have no idea? Why would anyone think this?

You've been engaged in Sunni/Shia discussions for a while now have you not?

What would you think Ahlul-Sunnah, or some of them, would consider as "Kufr" and what would they consider as "Shirk"?

I'd like to hear your guesses then I'll give you two examples myself of what would Ahlul-Sunnah consider Kufr/Shirk.

[Ameen]

Brother Hani, why do you want me guessing??? We're not playing a game, are we??? Anyways, lets take this discussion forward. Kufr has to do with Nabuwath and Shirk has to do with Tauheed. If you reject Nabuwath, any part of Nabuwath or the status of any Messenger then, this would result in Kufr.If you worship anyone, anything apart from Allah or associate anything or anyone to Allah then, this would result in Shirk.

Now not to believe in the status of any companion or having doubts about their faith and belief, or categorising their status and position or cursing any companion or even humiliating, insulting, slandering, swearing or what ever else you would like to add in, how and in what way is this Takfeer???

[Hani]

Brother Hani, why do you want me guessing??? We're not playing a game, are we??? Anyways, lets take this discussion forward. Kufr has to do with Nabuwath and Shirk has to do with Tauheed. If you reject Nabuwath, any part of Nabuwath or the status of any Messenger then, this would result in Kufr.If you worship anyone, anything apart from Allah or associate anything or anyone to Allah then, this would result in Shirk.

Now not to believe in the status of any companion or having doubts about their faith and belief, or categorising their status and position or cursing any companion or even humiliating, insulting, slandering, swearing or what ever else you would like to add in, how and in what way is this Takfeer???

Salam,

Okay, since you don't want to contribute your thoughts, I'll give you two examples InshaAllah at the end of this post.

Now before we begin, I'd like to clarify that I (as well as you) are not qualified to discuss topics as we've never researched them or read related books.

Regarding Kufr, there are popular books which speak on the boundaries and laws of Kufr, who is a Kafir and who is qualified to make a declaration of Takfeer.

Now you stated that Shirk has to do with Tawheed, this is true. Then you said that Kufr has to do with Nubuwwah, I say everything has to do with Nubuwwah even Tawheed, because if you do not believe in Muhammad (saw) then you don't believe in the Qur'an and the Tawheed.

Regarding Kufr:

You said that insulting the companions or making Takfeer on them does not constitute Kufr. I say it can indeed constitute Kufr.

How?

Well if you believe for example that Sahih al-Bukhari is a book containing sayings correctly attributed to the Prophet (saw), and in Sahih Bukhari the Prophet (saw) says: "Abu Bakr is from the dwellers of heaven."

Then you accuse Abu Bakr that he is an evil apostate because of his ruling on Fadak, that means you rejected the Prophet's (saw) words and promise making you a Kafir.

Similarly, if you believe that whatever Ja`far says in al-Kafi is attributed to the Prophet (saw), and Ja`far says: "`Ammar is a believer who will enter heaven." Then you disagree saying, "No he's in hell because he obeyed `Umar and worked for him."

This makes you a Kafir because you rejected what is correctly attributed to the Prophet (saw) in al-Kafi.

Now you ask, well you're a mainstream Muslim and according to your texts Abu Bakr is in heaven, but me as a Shi`ee I don't believe in your books and in my books he's an evil apostate, how does that make your view of me? Am I a Kafir?

I personally believe in this case, that you are committing acts of Kufr but are not a Kafir. Meaning, you are sinful and will be punished but you're not a Kafir as you don't believe in my books in the first place. Thus, a deviant Muslim is what you become, you have the rights that any Muslim has.

Is Kufr limited to Nubuwwah? The major Kufr is known but there is minor Kufr, or as we said an act of Kufr that does not render its doer as a non-Muslim.

For instance, the Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever insults one's lineage or wails on the dead has committed Kufr."
He (saw) also said: "Whoever seeks a fortune teller has done (an act of) Kufr."

Similarly, we find that there is Shirk Akbar and Shirk Asghar, a man who believes that `Ali is God on earth has done Shirk Akbar such as the Sabaa'iyyah and the Nusayriyyah and other Shia sects. He becomes a disbeliever by doing so.

As for committing an act of shirk, it can be like this Hadith where he (saw) says: "Whoever gives an oath/promise by other than Allah, he has made Shirk."

This can include Shia in our days who say: "By `Ali, I did not do this" or "By the Wilayah of Sahib-ul-Zaman I love you."

This is an act of Shirk, doesn't make the doer a polytheist or non-Muslim, but is still sinful and he will be punished if Allah wills.

Finally, you want to see examples of why some Muslims may attribute Kufr/Shirk to Imamiyyah, I will give these two examples, starting with an example of Kufr:

عن الحسن بن الحسين بن بابويه ، عن عمه محمد بن الحسن ، عن أبيه الحسن بن الحسين ، عن عمه أبي جعفر بن بابويه ، عن القطان ، عن ابن زكريا عن ابن حبيب ، عن ابن بهلول ، عن أبيه ، عن أبي الحسن العبدي ، عن سليمان ابن مهران ، عن عباية بن ربعي قال : قلت لعبد الله بن العباس : لم كنى رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله عليا عليه‌السلام أبا تراب؟ قال : لانه صاحب الارض ، وحجة الله على أهلها بعده ، وبه بقاؤها ، وإليه سكونها ، ولقد سمعت رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله يقول : إنه إذا كان يوم القيامة ورأى الكافر ما أعد الله تعالى لشيعة علي من الثواب والزلفى والكرامة ، قال : « يا ليتني كنت ترابا » أي يا ليتني كنت من شيعة علي وذلك قول الله عزوجل : « ويقول الكافر يا ليتني كنت ترابا »

[From al-Hasan bin al-Husayn bin Babawayh, from his uncle Muhammad bin al-Hasan, from his father al-Hasan bin al-Husayn, from his uncle abu Ja`far bin Babawayh, from al-Qattan, from ibn Zakariya, from ibn Habib, from ibn Bahlul, from his father, from abu al-Hasan al-`Abdi, from Sulayman bin Mihran, from `Abayah bin Rib`i, I said to ibn `Abbas: Why did the Prophet (saw) call `Ali as abu Turab(father of sand)? He said: "Because he is the owner of the earth, and the proof of God upon its inhabitants, and through him it remains (in existence), and because of him it remains stable (doesn't fall apart) etc...]

Source: Bihar al-Anwar 35/51.

And this isn't stuff Shia don't believe in, Sistani's official research center presented this narration as an answer to a questioner who asked "Why was `Ali called abu Turab?":

http://www.aqaed.com/faq/4720/

When we know that the earth belongs to Allah and he sustains everything and preserves everything with his power, not `Ali:

{Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth.} [2:255]

{Do you not see that Allah has subjected to you whatever is on the earth and the ships which run through the sea by His command? And He restrains the sky from falling upon the earth, unless by His permission. Indeed Allah, to the people, is Kind and Merciful.} [22:65]


Then an example of Shirk:

عن أحمد بن أبي جعفر البيهقي ، عن علي بن جعفر المدني ، عن علي بن محمد بن مهرويه القزويني ، عن داود بن سليمان ، عن الرضا ، عن آبائه عليهم‌السلام قال : قال رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله : إذا كان يوم القيامة ولينا حساب شيعتنا فمن كانت مظلمته فيما بينه وبين الله عزوجل حكمنا فيها فأجابنا ، ومن كانت مظلمته فيما بينه وبين الناس استوهبناها فوهبت لنا ، ومن كانت مظلمته فيما بينه وبيننا كنا أحق من عفا وصفح

[From Ahmad bin abi Ja`far al-Bayhaqi, from `Ali bin Ja`far al-Madani, from `Ali bin Muhammad bin Mahrawayh al-Qazwini, from Dawud bin Sulayman, from al-Rida (as), from his fathers (as), the Prophet (saw) said: "On the day of judgement we will be in charge of judging our Shia, whichever of them has an issue with Allah then we will judge it and He will accept (our judgement), whichever of them has an issue with the people then we will take care of it for him, and whichever of them has an issue with us then we are the most worthy of offering forgiveness."]

Source: `Uyoun Akhbar al-Rida 2/57.

Now we all know that on the day of judgement Allah is the judge, and associating the Imams with Allah in judgement on the day of judgement is Shirk.

Allah says:

{But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.} [2:113]

{And indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.} [16:124]

So the above is just examples of typical Shia narrations that conflict with Qur'an and Sunnah according to Ahlul-Sunnah, thus the accusations against Shia of Kufr/Shirk.

[Furkan]

Sorry for bothering but something got my attention. What kind of shirk are those 2 shiite narrations you presented?

[Optimus Prime]

Hani, do you believe a Shia who attributes the signs or qualities of Allah to their Imams are out of the fold of Islam?

[Ameen]

Ok brother, you said,

"I say everything has to do with Nubuwwah even Tawheed, because if you do not believe in Muhammad (saw) then you don't believe in the Qur'an and the Tawheed",

Those people who believe in the Messengers and scriptures before the Quran but don't believe in the Quran and the last Messenger (pbuh) are known as people of book/s  (Ahle Kithab). These people are know as Kafir. Allah said to the Angels,

" Bow to Adam, and they bowed apart from Iblees", what did Iblees do??? "He became stubborn, and became arrogant", what happened next??? "And he became amongst the kafirs", (Wa kana minal kafireen).

So tell me, what has this got to do with Tauheed??? Everything doesn't have to do with Tauheed. If you don't believe in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Quran but you do believe in the previous scripture/s and Messenger/s then, what has this got to do with Tauheed???

Before Muhammad (pbuh) introduced himself as a Messenger, Tauheed did exist and people did believe in the oneness of Allah. Islam did exist from day one and it was around before the introduction of the last messenger and revelation. So my dear brother, I disagree. Tauheed and Nabuwath are two separate things.

You said,

"You said that insulting the companions or making Takfeer on them does not constitute Kufr. I say it can indeed constitute Kufr",

Further on you mention,

"Well if you believe for example that Sahih al-Bukhari is a book containing sayings correctly attributed to the Prophet (saw), and in Sahih Bukhari the Prophet (saw) says: "Abu Bakr is from the dwellers of heaven."

Then you accuse Abu Bakr that he is an evil apostate because of his ruling on Fadak, that means you rejected the Prophet's (saw) words and promise making you a Kafir.

Similarly, if you believe that whatever Ja`far says in al-Kafi is attributed to the Prophet (saw), and Ja`far says: "`Ammar is a believer who will enter heaven." Then you disagree saying, "No he's in hell because he obeyed `Umar and worked for him."

This makes you a Kafir because you rejected what is correctly attributed to the Prophet (saw) in al-Kafi",

Brother the narrations in Bukhari, Al Kafi or any other book are there to justify your claim to a certain extent. But we are all aware and except that the Sunnah has been tampered with. A lot of hadiths are falsely attributed to the Prophet (pbuh) and we all categorise hadiths/narrations as strong and weak. Some are even rejected and certain are accepted by some and rejected by others, which you have mentioned.

One can easily dispute/refute on whether the Prophet (pbuh) had said this or not. There is no room for dispute or refute when it comes to Shirk and Kufr. Brother, your case is weak.

You said,

"Now you ask, well you're a mainstream Muslim and according to your texts Abu Bakr is in heaven, but me as a Shi`ee I don't believe in your books and in my books he's an evil apostate, how does that make your view of me? Am I a Kafir?

I personally believe in this case, that you are committing acts of Kufr but are not a Kafir. Meaning, you are sinful and will be punished but you're not a Kafir as you don't believe in my books in the first place. Thus, a deviant Muslim is what you become, you have the rights that any Muslim has",

Brother, what on earth are you talking about??? "You are committing acts of Kufr but are not a Kafir", what does this suppose to mean??? Brother your personal belief has got nothing to do with Shariath. You said, "I personally believe", Shariath is what Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) believe, not what you and I think.

Like I said before that who is a Mushrik or Kafir, according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) is one thing but according to us is another. Your case is based on your personal views and what you think. Your case is not based on Shariath.

You further on say,

"Is Kufr limited to Nubuwwah? The major Kufr is known but there is minor Kufr, or as we said an act of Kufr that does not render its doer as a non-Muslim",

Brother Kufr is Kufr. There is no such thing as major and minor Kufr. If there is then please back your case with references from the Quran, since narrations/hadiths are strong and weak, acceptable and reject able.

You said,

"For instance, the Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever insults one's lineage or wails on the dead has committed Kufr."
He (saw) also said: "Whoever seeks a fortune teller has done (an act of) Kufr",

Again you haven't given me anything direct from the Quran but you have put forward material which is disputable and refutable.

You further on say,

"Similarly, we find that there is Shirk Akbar and Shirk Asghar, a man who believes that `Ali is God on earth has done Shirk Akbar such as the Sabaa'iyyah and the Nusayriyyah and other Shia sects. He becomes a disbeliever by doing so",

Again you speak about categorising shirk as Akbar and Asghar. If you can give me references from the Quran for this then, that would be nice.

You said,

"This can include Shia in our days who say: "By `Ali, I did not do this" or "By the Wilayah of Sahib-ul-Zaman I love you. This is an act of Shirk, doesn't make the doer a polytheist or non-Muslim, but is still sinful and he will be punished if Allah wills",

Again brother this is you personal opinion and you have a right to it. People do say that " I swear on my mothers life" or "I want you to do this, please, for my sake". There is no harm in holding others dear to you in your life. I'm sure you hold many people and things dear in your life but that doesn't mean you are comparing them to Allah.

You said,

"Now we all know that on the day of judgement Allah is the judge, and associating the Imams with Allah in judgement on the day of judgement is Shirk.

Allah says:

{But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.} [2:113]

{And indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.} [16:124]

So the above is just examples of typical Shia narrations that conflict with Qur'an and Sunnah according to Ahlul-Sunnah, thus the accusations against Shia of Kufr/Shirk",

I will give you a detailed response for this.

[Furkan]

I feel sorry for Brother Hani :p

[Hani]

@Ameen,

Tauheed and Nabuwath are two separate things.

Regarding what you said about Tawheed being available before Muhammad (saw), this isn't what we're talking about, we're talking about Islam only not previous religions and creeds. In Islam it was the Prophet (saw) who taught people how to do Tawheed.


Previous prophets also taught their people Tawheed, meaning in one way or another everything is tied to Nubuwwah.

Brother the narrations in Bukhari, Al Kafi or any other book are there to justify your claim to a certain extent. But we are all aware and except that the Sunnah has been tampered with. A lot of hadiths are falsely attributed to the Prophet (pbuh) and we all categorise hadiths/narrations as strong and weak. Some are even rejected and certain are accepted by some and rejected by others, which you have mentioned.


One can easily dispute/refute on whether the Prophet (pbuh) had said this or not. There is no room for dispute or refute when it comes to Shirk and Kufr. Brother, your case is weak.

You didn't get it. I said if you consider the content of a Hadith to be the words of the Prophet (saw), then you reject them, then you're a Kafir.


Is that odd?


Besides no two scholars disagrees on the authenticity of the narrations which promise Abu Bakr heaven, they're Mutawatir, so there is consensus in the Ummah.

Brother, what on earth are you talking about??? "You are committing acts of Kufr but are not a Kafir", what does this suppose to mean??? Brother your personal belief has got nothing to do with Shariath. You said, "I personally believe", Shariath is what Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) believe, not what you and I think.

You want to discuss with me but you don't want my opinion? Strange.


It's not my opinion anyway, research "Kufr Doun al-Kufr." Even Imamiyyah have this concept and call it "Kufr Muqabil al-Iman" and "Kufr Muqabil al-Islam".


Meaning one act of Kufr can take you out of the folds of Islam altogether but another will not.


For example: Giant Shia scholar Muhammad Baqir al-Waheed al-Bahbahani says:


[The Mukhalif(Sunni) who has denied an Asl or two from the Usool al-Deen - and they are Imamah and `Adl(justice) (...) is a Kafir without a doubt, his Kufr is Muqabil al-Iman, even if it wasn't Kufr Muqabil al-Islam yet it is mentioned in the narrations that he is worse than the Jews and Christians and other than them]


source: Footnotes of "Majma` al-Fa'idah wal-Burhan" pg32.

You said,


"For instance, the Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever insults one's lineage or wails on the dead has committed Kufr."
He (saw) also said: "Whoever seeks a fortune teller has done (an act of) Kufr",


Again you haven't given me anything direct from the Quran but you have put forward material which is disputable and refutable.


...Again you speak about categorising shirk as Akbar and Asghar. If you can give me references from the Quran for this then, that would be nice.

These are my beliefs from my books, no one said that we can only quote the Qur'an, where'd you get this from?

Again brother this is you personal opinion and you have a right to it. People do say that " I swear on my mothers life" or "I want you to do this, please, for my sake". There is no harm in holding others dear to you in your life. I'm sure you hold many people and things dear in your life but that doesn't mean you are comparing them to Allah.

"for my sake" is not Shirk, you're not promising by it. But swearing on your mother's life is Makrouh or forbidden as it was prohibited.


Either-way, if you don't believe in the above, that means Kufr is all equal in your eyes, thus making you and all Shia Kouffar according to Ahlul-Sunnah and making us all Kouffar in your eyes, so end of story.

[Hani]

I still don't understand what we're discussing, Ameen knows I don't make general Takfeer on Shia yet he's discussing Takfeer with me.


And if you're still curious as to why Tashayyu` is accused a religion of Kufr and Shirk, then it's because of the Imami narrations and the sayings of Imami scholars.

[Furkan]

Ameen doesn't ask questions like here, on shiachat. He is just playing around/ still too young or just not knowledgeable.

[Hani]

Look at the Takfeeri ibn Babawayh al-Qummi, he says in the introduction of his book Kamal-ul-Deen:


[I bear witness that (...) whoever forbids what is permissible or permits what is forbidden, and whoever alters a tradition, or drops an obligatory duty, or changes a religious law, or creates an innovation wishing that the people would follow him by doing it, then he has taken himself as a partner of Allah, and whoever follows him has taken another Lord besides Allah, he will incur Allah's wrath and abide in the fire, his (good) deeds will be discarded and he becomes from the losers. And peace be upon Muhammad and his pure family.]


I'm sure according to al-Saduq that Ahlul-Sunnah did at least some if not all of these Hahaha... If following an innovator makes you a Mushrik in his eyes then why blame us?

[Optimus Prime]

Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

[Hani]

Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

[Optimus Prime]

Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

Some Shia (according to AntiMajos) says they believe their Imams created man or human beings and control the nature of life. We know Allah (SWT) is in complete and command of his creations not the creation itself.

[Hani]

That's Shirk.