Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice

[Furkan]

They say Allah created imams and the imams created us. (With the permission of Allah? )

If shirk

[Ameen]

Brother Hani your thought, opinion and point of view does matter since this is what discussion is all about. But what I meant is that just putting your opinion forward, it doesn't matter if it's me or you, then explaining and justifying it with material that applies to only us is not strong enough to convince the other.

Let me explain, I can turn around and say "well you are committing kufr since the Prophet (pbuh) did appoint a successor" and if I put references forward from the Sunnah (hadiths/narrations) but you say, "it's not good enough for us, we don't except this since it's your opinion. Prove it from the Quran".

This is what I mean. I know you don't believe that Shiaism is a religion of Shirk and kufr. But certain brothers do and they refuse to discuss it. I am only discussing this with you to put certain facts forward. That is all.

Brother certain groups might be out there who call themselves Shia but you need to be clear about them rather than putting every Shia in the same bag. This is propaganda.

[Hani]

Let me explain, I can turn around and say "well you are committing kufr since the Prophet (pbuh) did appoint a successor" and if I put references forward from the Sunnah (hadiths/narrations) but you say, "it's not good enough for us, we don't except this since it's your opinion. Prove it from the Quran".

This is what I mean. I know you don't believe that Shiaism is a religion of Shirk and kufr. But certain brothers do and they refuse to discuss it. I am only discussing this with you to put certain facts forward. That is all.

Brother certain groups might be out there who call themselves Shia but you need to be clear about them rather than putting every Shia in the same bag. This is propaganda.

I never put all Shia in the same bag, I don't say they're all Muslims nor do I say they're all Kouffar.

As for the appointment of `Ali, this is a weak opinion as it is not backed by any authentic narration rather it conflicts with authentic narrations.

[Hani]

They say Allah created imams and the imams created us. (With the permission of Allah? )

If shirk

Me personally I don't believe it's Shirk IF they clarify that it's only by Allah's permission and power. However, it is a malicious innovation and clear deviance as Allah and his Prophet (saw) did not announce such a belief.

Therefore, deviant Muslims.

[Ebn Hussein]

So you don't believe that someone who claims that Ali is a minor God by the PERMISSION of the supreme God, is a Mushrik? Or someone who believes that Allah INCARNETED in Ali's body (by Allah's will!) is a Mushrik? Be careful Akhi, not everything is excused under the pretext of shubuhat, hence the fuquha make tafkir on much less severe believes than the one you mentioned.

[Ebn Hussein]

Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

Some Shia (according to AntiMajos) says they believe their Imams created man or human beings and control the nature of life. We know Allah (SWT) is in complete and command of his creations not the creation itself.

This is not according to "Anti Majos" this is according to their narrations (in Nahj al-Balagha even!!!).

[Furkan]

Well creating is only something that Allah can do right? But someone showed me that Isa (as) created a Bird? Thus if the imams are acxording to those deviants, better, then.they expect that the imams can create much more?

Such deviant belief !!!!!

[Optimus Prime]

They say Allah created imams and the imams created us. (With the permission of Allah? )

If shirk

Me personally I don't believe it's Shirk IF they clarify that it's only by Allah's permission and power. However, it is a malicious innovation and clear deviance as Allah and his Prophet (saw) did not announce such a belief.

Therefore, deviant Muslims.

Interesting.

I'm not sure if they do add a clause and state by the will of Allah. To me it doesn't render the statement any different since Allah has confirmed he alone is control of all his creation without any intermediary.

[Optimus Prime]

Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

Some Shia (according to AntiMajos) says they believe their Imams created man or human beings and control the nature of life. We know Allah (SWT) is in complete and command of his creations not the creation itself.

This is not according to "Anti Majos" this is according to their narrations (in Nahj al-Balagha even!!!).

True, brother. I mentioned AntiMajos to entice his curiosity because he claims we don't back-up our claims. I was intending on throwing him the link if he was wanting to know.

[Furkan]

It must be the ghulats who believed in tahreef, to introduce this concept.

Anyways.can someone give his thought on what I said about Isa as and the comparison the shite made.

[Ebn Hussein]

In Arabic this is called قياس باطل or قياس مع الفارق (invalid Qiyas/analogy). And ironically you see the Rawafid often doing Qiyas in matters of Aqidah (due to their baseless beliefs), although Qiyas is forbidden according to their religion! Anyway as for Jesus "creating" then only a Mushrik (like Christians!) would use these MIRACLES to clam that Jesus (or anyone else for that matter) is of divine nature/possesses divine attributes (like creating). Read the verse (translation carefuly):

"And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave ...

A SIGN from Allah (God). All Jesus is doing (as a PROPHET mentioned in the QUR'AN and the Gospel) is to BREATH into a bird made out of clay. It is ALLAH who creates the bird NOT Jesus. The Rafidi belief on the other hand is that Allah created 12 divine beings (Gods) who then THEMSELVES (let's say by the permission of Allah) created EVERYTHING else, yet none of this nonsense has been mentioned in the Qur'an (but the miracle of an apparently inferior Prophet has been CLEARLY mentioned in the Qur'an!!!) nor has this anything to do with what Jesus (AS) did.

Surely those on whom you call upon instead of Allah cannot create even a fly, though they should all combine together for the purpose. And if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they cannot recover it therefrom. Weak, indeed, are both the seeker and the sought. (22:74)

Only Mushrik like Rafidah believe that the Quraysh Mushriks used to worship some stones and wood. The truth is that they used to worship not just random idols, but also ANGELS and PROPHETS such as Jesus. Jesus never created anything nor was he responsible for the creation of anything that exists, he performed a miracle, whereas the Rafidah deities are CREATORS of EVERYTHING *BUT* Allah, this is what their shirki books state and their brainless followers repeat:



They are without a shred of doubt Mushriks, they affirm multiple God's in their most authentic du'as:

عن أبي عبد الله قال عند الإصابة بالوجع "قل وأنت ساجد: يا الله يا رحمن يا رحيم: يا رب الأرباب وإله الآلهة" الكفي 2ج ص412 بابا الدعاء للعلل والأمراض
 
Their God is an unity, kind of like the trinity only with 14, it would be a triskaidecanity.
 
And therefore asking Allah or the Imams is the same thing. In the name of Allah or in the name of Imams is the same thing. This is why we find in your books.

 وعن أبي جعفر قال: واذا اشتكى الانسان فليقل: بسم الله وبالله وبمحمد رسول الله"الكافي 2/412
 
(in the name of Muhammad ...)

And this is why they can seek refuge in the Prophet (and Ali, and and and(
 
وعن أبي جعفر قال: واذا اشتكى الانسان فليقل: بسم الله وبالله وبمحمد رسول الله"(الكافي 2/412 باب الدعاء للعلل والأمراض
 
By Allah the monotheism in the trinity is greater then what we find in the Deen of the Rafidis and no 'bi2ithnillah' excuse will make these Mushriks,Muslim.

[Hani]

All of this need to be addressed by qualified scholars I suppose, I just stay away from Takfeer because this is what the Sunnah teaches and recommends...


The Ithna-`Ashari cult is truly drowned to their noses in troublesome un-Islamic beliefs, anyone who joins them has certainly placed his Akhirah in great danger.

[Ebn Hussein]

Brother Hani, do you think any scholar and qadhi who knows the reality (real haqiqah) of the mushrik sect of the Rafidah will refrain from Takfir? Wallah al-Musta3an akhi. Let me remind you:

They believe:

1. Ali and the Imams (AS) are beings created out of God's own divine essence
2. They created EVERYTHING but Allah
3. They have control over all creation
4. They are  All-hearing, All-seeing, All-knowing, people call on in times of distress (and who responds to those calls)

That doesn't sounds like deities to you and you excuse them with their "bi2ithnillah" excuse?! Bro. if you were an average Shia refuter I'd understand your stance, but you know the haqiqah of these Mushriks, they can impossibily be Muslims, if so then be consistent and start excusing Qadyanis, Nusayris etc.

[Furkan]

But we can't just throw takfeer if we don't see their explanation.

[Ebn Hussein]

It's not about "throwing". Christians also have their "explanations". We are talking about shirk WORSE than the shirk of trinity. Yes, some Rawafid who do NOT hold those beliefs mentioned might be excused, but saying that those who DO hold those beliefs are excused merely due to justifying it, then this opens the door to excuse all sorts of heresies. You as a Hanafi should know that, for the Ahnaf are the harshest when it comes to the takfir on the Rafidah, even for much LESSER things that have been mentioned.

[Bolani Muslim]

I don't think blame should be put on most ignorant  laymen shia. Going on Sunni sites did I learn about all these weird shia beliefs, even most shias I know of are ignorant of their 'contreversial' beliefs. My shia mullah (who I asked) says that disbelieving in authenticity of Quran doesn't make one kafir, and that moving of verses (which will confuse the readers) occurred. However according to my mother anyone who holds these beliefs will go to the worst part of hell, this is coming from a woman who says good Hindus will enter jannah.

[Hadrami]

It's not about "throwing". Christians also have their "explanations". We are talking about shirk WORSE than the shirk of trinity. Yes, some Rawafid who do NOT hold those beliefs mentioned might be excused, but saying that those who DO hold those beliefs are excused merely due to justifying it, then this opens the door to excuse all sorts of heresies. You as a Hanafi should know that, for the Ahnaf are the harshest when it comes to the takfir on the Rafidah, even for much LESSER things that have been mentioned.

wonder why i have the impression that shia in iran view shafi'i as the least harsh against them? You are the harshest bro In this issue im with you though, lets not get overboard with excuses for the knowledgable shia or their scholars as for ignorant laymen, thats a different story.

[Furkan]

Yes, I did see many Ahnaaf scholars doing takfeer. I just want to know what shiites mean with this concept in detail, so yes, I do want their explanation if possible. And bro can you give the aya and it's tafseer about Isa as and the bird. (@ ebn hussein)

Lol bolani.

[Furkan]

Oh and can you give some shite narrations with source about Allah creating imams and the imams creating us (may Allah orotrct us from this devilry).

I am going to ask it somewhere so please post it as a text.

And uhm: Did you guys come across this concept, for the very first time?

[Furkan]

Found this: http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa8168

In general it says that Adam was created with the light of Ali, and not by Ali himself since his flesh didn't excist yet (he wasnt born yet). Or something like that ( My brains don't want to give any space to this weird concept, alhamdulilah )

Don't know any background detail about this rubish explanation on that site.