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appeal to link

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karim fattah

appeal to link
« on: September 30, 2017, 08:18:36 PM »
salamu alakium every1 and especially link,

link everytime you try to prove imamah in the quran you use verses which are clearly not about imamah let me refute them here and also let you know something

firstly 5:55, i refuted that here: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/was-abu-bakr-or-ali-the-first-caliph/msg17753/#msg17753

regarding 2:124, the verse is not clear at all,

next up hani refuted it: Salam,


In this thread I'll take the Shia methodology in understanding this verse:


According to the Shia understanding of this verse, Ibrahim (as) was made an Imam, promoted to a special status! He also asked God if there will be other Imams from his progeny.


{And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [Allah] said, "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allah] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."} [2:124]


The Shia say the Imams from his progeny are `Ali and his sons. We have glad tidings, the Qur'an does in fact mention the Imams from the progeny of Ibrahim (as) by name!


After mentioning how God saved Ibrahim (as) from the fire, it says:


{And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition, and all [of them] We made righteous. - And We made them Imams guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of Us.} [21:72-73]


So there you have it, not `Ali or any of his sons, turns out the Imams according to the Qur'an are Ibrahim (as) and 2 prophets from Ibrahim's (as) progeny, Ishaq & Ya`qub (as). They all received revelation as well, this seems to be the defining ability of an Imam.

In the Qur'an, we've not seen yet anyone be awarded the rank of "Imam" (acc to Shia understanding) while NOT being a prophet. Based on this Qur'anic concept, an Imam can either be that of goodness or that of evil, the evil ones are impostors while the good ones are the prophets.

next up if iammah is from asl ul deen and we will be kuffar in the hereafter for rejecting 1 imam, there should be a clear verse, the verse 2:124 is not clear at all.

also i could make this claim, abraham cmae and from ishmael the quraish came. the verse says from my profeny, so i could make the claim it is about abu bakr and muawiya. the verse is 0% clear and i dont believe anyone who reads the verse would believe in 12 infallible imams after the prophet muhammad saws you have to follow and if you dont follow him you will be a kafir.

next 4:59, it says: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

the arabic says: يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا   

i dont see at all how this can mean 12 infallible imams you have to follow i showed this to one of my non muslim friends, he thought ok. i asked him, does this mean that there are multiple people you have to follow after the death of the prophet muhammad that will have ilm ul ghayb and they are infallible and higher than all other prophets except for muhammad, he laughed at me

firstly it is clear from the verse there is no complete obedience to the ones in authority amongst you, but there is complete authority to allah and the messenger saws. and in the end he says refer it to allah and his messenger. why does allah swt not say refer it to allah and the messenger and the ones in authority.

also the imams had ilm ul ghayb and so much knowledge why can we not refer something to them, arent hey infalibe why shouldnt we refer it to them

also this verse is actually problematic to you, it says obey allah and obey the messenger, why was their no obey before saying the one in authority, also why dont we refer it to them. because they are not high like prophets, because they are not the rule makers, they arent really infallible because infallibles could fix mmistakes so we should refer it to them

also the arabic says: وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ

the last phrase, kum, shows from among you. this shows the verse is very general, and we have no imam among us today because the 12th one wentn into al ghayba al kubra, the major occultation and he is now no more accesible.

the verse is clearly general. and has nothing to do with imamsa who are infallible who have ilm ul ghayb

to close it off, as i have shown i have refuted thag 5:55 is about ali, similarly hani has done this with 2:124 and shown that 4:59 is nothing more than a general verse

so there is nothing clear in the quran about imamahm

but  there are some ambigous things, what does allah swt say about following ambigous things and rejecting the claritiy

quran 3:7, It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

so stop appealing to the ambigous verses

Link

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2017, 09:57:13 PM »
Salam

1st before we can discuss, we have to agree on some terms.

One is Quran clear?If so what does it mean that Quran is clear? Does it mean it's overall themes are clear? Does it mean every verse it states is clear? Does it mean its flow is clear? Or does it mean all these things to the extent even Alif Lam Meem is clear if we pay attention?

I don't believe a single aya is difficult to understand perceive it's placed with respect to the Surah and Quran, what I think is we make it difficult because we let the Jibt dictate to us what to pick from Quran and what to ignore, and we belittle some verses as if it's not God who choose these words to say and make them hardly important.

The other issue is we can if we seek to prove something use bad reasoning and prove through that.

What is important is reflecting sincerely and letting Quran explain itself in that regards.


Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2017, 09:59:42 PM »
We can prove through bad reasoning anything, that is why we need to see the same message in Quran over and over again, to verify the true interpretation.

As for Imammate, I see it over and over again.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2017, 10:05:10 PM »
Salam

Here is a challenge for you.

1. Collect all verses that ARE CLEARLY about leadership of the non-chosen type. (There is a lot, you might be surprised to see Quran did talk about this)

2. Explain the contrast of the Wilayah of God vs that of the Taghut in light of that.

3. Collect all verses about "Amr".

4. Explain to me how God can negate the false leadership and establish true leadership (in your own words, what would he have to do to do this).



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

karim fattah

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2017, 11:26:24 PM »
Ok

Yes the quran is clear. This means the stories of the previous prophets are clear. This means it is clear what allah swt wants from us, what eill happen if we reject him and ehat we will receive what we accept him. What the rules are which we have to follow etc.

The theme is clear yes

You asked is each verse clear and then said:I don't believe a single aya is difficult to understand perceive it's placed with respect to the Surah and Quran, what I think is we make it difficult because we let the Jibt dictate to us what to pick from Quran and what to ignore, and we belittle some verses as if it's not God who choose these words to say and make them hardly important.

What you just said goes against the quran itself and against the words of allah swt.

Quran 3:7 It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

So allah swt himself says not every single verse is clear some are mutashabihat: unspecific unclear allegorical

So i go and follow allah swt and say not each and every verse is specific and clear

You said that you believe every aya is clear and you can find its meaning. Specifically: "I don't believe a single aya is difficult to understand perceive it's placed with respect to the Surah and Quran"

This is against thr quran because it says that only allah knows its meaning.


 




karim fattah

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2017, 11:27:16 PM »
Next you said that you see imamat everywhere well can you show me imamate so that i could be a shia too.

Show me imamah in the quran that is a challenge for you.

karim fattah

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2017, 11:59:29 PM »
Every quote on leaderships

I will just get some i wont get all

Quran 2:124

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."
( before you say this is about imamah see my first comment )

21|73
And We made them leaders, guiding by Our command; and We inspired them to do good works, and to observe the prayer, and to give out charity. They were devoted servants to Us.

2|247

Their prophet said to them, “God has appointed Talut (Saul) to be your king.” They said, “How can he have authority over us, when we are more worthy of authority than he, and he was not given plenty of wealth?” He said, “God has chosen him over you, and has increased him in knowledge and
stature.” God bestows His sovereignty upon whomever He wills. God is Embracing and Knowing.

I dont understand what your point 2 means

Verses about amr there are 34. All can be viewed here: https://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=الْأَمْرِ&chapter=&translator=1&search=1&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

Mentioning a view: 2:210 Wait they for naught else than that Allah should come unto them in the shadows of the clouds with the angels? Then the case would be already judged. All cases go back to Allah (for judgment).

6:58: Say: If I had that for which ye are impatient, then would the case (ere this) have been decided between me and you. Allah is Best Aware of the wrong-doers

How he can establish true leadership. He could do this through muhammad saws give him the knowledge on who to select as a leader after he saws passes away.

He could tell us in the quran who to follow etc.

Allah has many differebt ways to let us know which leadership we have to follow.

But if you try to make the claim that the 12 imams are those leaders and that we have to follow them and if we do not then we are kuffar.

Well then allah had to make it very clear. He could have made an aya follow the 12 imams and then named them. He could have said after muhammad follow a certain ankunt of people from ahlul bayt etc.

Anything clear, yet there is nothing about imsmah in the quran 0. And you said you see it everywhere well csn you show me






Link

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2017, 12:14:02 AM »
Salam

What clicks for you, and that you will see the overall recitation, I don't know.

I can tell you something that we do agree upon.

Do you know the story of Sheba and Sulaiman?

When she saw the throne, she didn't think anything of it. She is like this is similar to mine. After seeing a lot of she finally saw something that it clicked in her head, without Sulaiman telling her, that this is her throne. She saw the miracle and sign that Sulaiman was one she had to submit to God with.

The point is her first seeing it was enough, but still, because she was from a disbelieving people, it prevented her from seeing it.

I feel the same case is with Quran. I can quote every verse related to Leadership, true leadership and false and explain exactly why it proves it, but will it click?

I am not sure. I am trying to make people see the flow of Quran with respect to leadership in this topic: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/leadership-in-quran/


I can prove by logic, by quoting a bunch verses on the same subject, but at the end, if the whole Quran is mainly about Wilayah of Ahlulbayt, than what I can say that God didn't say to make you see it?

The same logic I used, Quran uses better,  the context and framework I want to give these words, Quran does a better job,  the explanation of each verse that proves Ahlulbayt is reinforced in Quran in a better explanation and way.

Fear God when reading it, seek his help, make notes, make connections, brainstorm how a verse is related to another if you can't see the flow right away.

I wish you luck.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

karim fattah

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2017, 12:46:03 AM »
In the link you provided you wrote so much i dont have time to go through it now ill do later

Next up you said you see imamah everywhere in the quran. So i ask you show me 1 clear example of imamah in the quran. Is this too much too ask for if you see it everywhere.

With regards to it clicking for me well provide it and if it clicks it clicks. At least provide some evidence for the claims.

You said the most of the quran is about wilayah and ahlul bayt. So i ask you if the most of it is anout wilayah and ahlul bayt. Show me 1 exampl e of imamah in the quran

Link

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2017, 12:47:49 AM »
In the link you provided you wrote so much i dont have time to go through it now ill do later

Next up you said you see imamah everywhere in the quran. So i ask you show me 1 clear example of imamah in the quran. Is this too much too ask for if you see it everywhere.

With regards to it clicking for me well provide it and if it clicks it clicks. At least provide some evidence for the claims.

You said the most of the quran is about wilayah and ahlul bayt. So i ask you if the most of it is anout wilayah and ahlul bayt. Show me 1 exampl e of imamah in the quran

How about you give that thread a read. If you don't have time today, then spread the time over the days.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2017, 12:50:33 AM »
With regards to it clicking for me well provide it and if it clicks it clicks.

You are not realizing what I'm saying. Indeed it is clear in many places. So if it has not clicked already, I can't know what will make it click.

If the flow of Quran cannot make you see it, if Surahs all explaining and holding onto one another, cannot make you see it, if the themes about the same subject in Quran and verse after verse reinforcing and interconnecting these themes, and  if the various hadiths from the Prophet and the Imams cannot you make see it, etc... than what I can do?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: appeal to link
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2017, 01:05:44 AM »
Brother, I can tell you Quran is the clearest book there is. It not only says everything clearly in one go, each in isolation, it also gives perfect context, as well as the Surahs are all interconnected and reinforce the true interpretation.

There is darkness from it, ambiguity, but that is only due to us belittling verses, and coming it to like laughing monkeys want it to say what confirms the delusions we came to it with which Quran is about curing.

Ayat by definition means proof, it is a proof of something, and it's not only proof, but clear insights and clear proofs, it points to the guidance in clear manifest manner.

Ayat are not to be isolated but to be seen where they take their place in the Surah and with respect to the whole Quran.

When it's taken like that, they all becoming unequivocal miracles, and proofs of God's religion.

No Ayat is dark and ambiguous and unclear, they all lead to guidance, but if we don't know what it means, we leave it to God to clarify it later, till it becomes clear and we come to know it's place.

Let us not distort God's words from their place in the Quran and then term them unclear by our hard hearts and vain desires.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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