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Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?

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iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #220 on: July 30, 2018, 04:56:12 PM »
For the 3rd attempt, still couldn't find any explicit verse for the most important pillar of Twelver Shi'ism after shahadah. Don't lose heart. You are not alone. Every Twelvers including your scholars are the same.

Thus, re-affirmed yet again the following:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

Still arrogant and playing blind to defend Saqifa and its personalities. Don't worry you're not alone in this. I completely understand your problem. The foundations of your belief, in fact your life, depend on Saqifa and just a handful of personalities. You aint dumb nor stupid. Deep down you know what went on after the Prophet's s.a.w final pilgrimage until his death. Things really took a different turn after that. You are very much aware of it. But you have to cover it. It's the only way for you. 😊

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #221 on: July 30, 2018, 07:23:44 PM »
Precisely the problem we are having!  You have asked too many stupid questions instead of reflecting on Qur'an (where Zakat is clearly mentioned as an obligation) and Shi'i hadiths (which state that failure to pay Zakat renders one outside the fold of Islam who can be beheaded).

What choice are you talking about?  There are categories of people who can benefit from Zakat.  Handing over your Zakat to a ruler or ruler-appointed collector is not paying them or filling their pockets; they, in turn, distribute all the collected Zakat among the categories mentioned in the Qur'an.  How long will you play dumb for?  I mean, you were the one to quote online Zakat-collecting websites to make your point so you should be the last one to question the handing over of Zakat to an entity whose sole purpose is to collect Zakat from people and then distribute it among the needy.

According to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra), who is hujjah upon you, this is based on Shariah, in fact as per the Will of Allah (swt), recorded in a book from which you derive your aqeedah and fiqh.

While I am almost certain you and aql are polar opposites (if you had aql you would not have posted such a response as I will get to in a minute), you have caused significant damage to your own argument by issuing this statement.

You insinuated that it is illogical for one to remain a Muslim while denying prayers, fasting, Zakat, etc.  That is exactly what Malik did; claimed to be a Muslim while freeing himself and his entire tribe from the obligation of paying Zakat.  Therefore, defending such a person (as you are trying to do) is beyond illogical.  That is what we have been saying all along but it does not penetrate your thick skull.

You think the questions are too many and stupid, because in reality you know you can't answer them nor do you have any intellectual or civilised response. Also you're the judge, the jury and the executioners all in one.

It doesn't matter whether they're Shia hadiths or narrations or be it Sunni, Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance.Secondly I do not have an issue with someone's statement or opinion based on what thy believe in but if something is put forward and said that 'it is from Allah or Allah has declared this' then I most certainly would like to know where Allah said or declared it and that's where the Qur'an comes in.

Or at least accept that apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah. That's all I'm asking and want to know. And you're ĺstill dancing your way around this. And the reason is that you don't want to be cornered into admitting and accepting. This is where you're being dishonest with yourself.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 07:32:40 PM by iceman »

muslim720

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #222 on: July 30, 2018, 08:01:18 PM »
Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance.

Are you renegading from Hadith Thaqalayn?

Quote
Secondly I do not have an issue with someone's statement or opinion based on what thy believe in but if something is put forward and said that 'it is from Allah or Allah has declared this' then I most certainly would like to know where Allah said or declared it and that's where the Qur'an comes in.

You can try to freestyle your way through this dilemma but according to your madhhab, Imams (ra) are Divinely Appointed and are infallible, therefore, Divinely Guided.  Hence, they do not give their opinion.  Now that the statement "Allah has declared it.....(till the end of the hadith)" is not found in the Qur'an, you've to concede that the Imam (ra) lied, naudhubillah!  Or you can swallow your pride and admit that Khalid (ra) was not wrong in meting out the punishment.

At the very least, in line with your previous response in which you deemed it illogical for a person to write off Qur'anic injunctions (for example, five pillars, etc) while calling himself or herself a Muslim, admit that Malik became an apostate (for refusing to pay Zakat and urging his tribe to do the same).

Quote
Or at least accept that apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah.

Why do you want me to accept such a notion when you have already given almost every attribute of Allah (swt) to your Imams (ra)?  You and I know that in your madhhab "other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah", namely the Imams (ra).  So instead of asking me an irrelevant question, why don't you explain your disobedience towards Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra)?  Is it not enough for you that he declared those who refuse to pay Zakat to be apostates and has demanded for them to be beheaded?

By the way, the following two statements are dichotomous:
"Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance".

"apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah".
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 08:06:55 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #223 on: July 30, 2018, 11:05:19 PM »
Are you renegading from Hadith Thaqalayn?

You can try to freestyle your way through this dilemma but according to your madhhab, Imams (ra) are Divinely Appointed and are infallible, therefore, Divinely Guided.  Hence, they do not give their opinion.  Now that the statement "Allah has declared it.....(till the end of the hadith)" is not found in the Qur'an, you've to concede that the Imam (ra) lied, naudhubillah!  Or you can swallow your pride and admit that Khalid (ra) was not wrong in meting out the punishment.

At the very least, in line with your previous response in which you deemed it illogical for a person to write off Qur'anic injunctions (for example, five pillars, etc) while calling himself or herself a Muslim, admit that Malik became an apostate (for refusing to pay Zakat and urging his tribe to do the same).

Why do you want me to accept such a notion when you have already given almost every attribute of Allah (swt) to your Imams (ra)?  You and I know that in your madhhab "other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah", namely the Imams (ra).  So instead of asking me an irrelevant question, why don't you explain your disobedience towards Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra)?  Is it not enough for you that he declared those who refuse to pay Zakat to be apostates and has demanded for them to be beheaded?

By the way, the following two statements are dichotomous:
"Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance".

"apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah".

"Are you renegading from Hadith Thaqalayn"

No, just getting you to accept the fact that it's not necessary that everything has to be in the Qur'an.

We're not talking about my Madhab, we're talking about hadith and narrations, do you accept and reject on the basis of what suits your desire because you've already made your mind up and have an ideology that you go by or do you have check and balance?

"Now that the statement "Allah has declared it.....(till the end of the hadith)" is not found in the Qur'an,"

FINALLY, THANK THE LORD. Was that too difficult. You could have said that in the first place and saved a lot of time.

"you've to concede that the Imam (ra) lied, naudhubillah!"

No, there is no need for that. I've got a better idea, why don't you put aside your arrogance and accept that it's not necessary that everything has to be in and from the Qur'an just as this example.

"Or you can swallow your pride and admit that Khalid (ra) was not wrong in meting out the punishment"

First you need to get the story right. Did men from Khalid’s convoy complain to Abu Bakr that Khalid acted hastily, they saw Malik and men from his tribe pray. And Abu Bakr decided to interrogate Khalid and once he did he decided that Khalid had made a grave mistake by acting without looking into something thoroughly and properly.

Then Abu Bakr gave blood money (Qisas) as compensation to Malik's brother Mutammim. Get the story right first. Malik was accused of becoming an apostate but when you look into the matter with an open mind and thoroughly then the evidence of a Companion suddenly becoming an apostate is extremely weak. And I thought you were defenders and protectors of the Sahaba.

Once a Sahabi always a Sahabi and then they can't get anything wrong. And here you accuse a Sahabi of apostasy. And if Shias do the same by looking into history and criticise and condemn certain Companions for their actions then you start jumping up and down?

"Is it not enough for you that he declared those who refuse to pay Zakat to be apostates and has demanded for them to be beheaded"

He didn't declare, it has been said that 'Allah declared', there is a difference.

"By the way, the following two statements are dichotomous:

"Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance".

"apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah".

How?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 11:13:59 PM by iceman »

Abu Muhammad

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #224 on: July 30, 2018, 11:10:37 PM »
This was your 4th attempt but this time, you didn't even try to bring any explicit verse for the most important pillar of Twelver Shi'ism after shahadah. And I don't know who is actually playing blind here.

Again, don't lose heart as I told you that you are not alone. Every Twelvers including your scholars are the same.

Thus, keep re-affirmed again and again the following:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

Still arrogant and playing blind to defend Saqifa and its personalities. Don't worry you're not alone in this. I completely understand your problem. The foundations of your belief, in fact your life, depend on Saqifa and just a handful of personalities. You aint dumb nor stupid. Deep down you know what went on after the Prophet's s.a.w final pilgrimage until his death. Things really took a different turn after that. You are very much aware of it. But you have to cover it. It's the only way for you. 😊

Saqifa is the foundation of our belief? LOL...

muslim720

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #225 on: July 31, 2018, 01:12:36 AM »
No, just getting you to accept the fact that it's not necessary that everything has to be in the Qur'an.

Since you believe that not everything has to be in the Qur'an, why do you then...

1.  ...restrict us to show you the decision of Abu Bakr (ra) and Khalid (ra) from the Qur'an when Zakat is clearly defined in the Qur'an?

2.  ...reject the verdict by Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) who declared people like Malik to have become apostates and demanded for their beheading?

3.  ...overlook the words of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) when he, to you, is the equivalent of Qur'an personified?


Quote
We're not talking about my Madhab, we're talking about hadith and narrations, do you accept and reject on the basis of what suits your desire because you've already made your mind up and have an ideology that you go by or do you have check and balance?

The hadiths I quoted you are all sahih so stop trying to wiggle your way out.  You're failing!


Quote
FINALLY, THANK THE LORD. Was that too difficult. You could have said that in the first place and saved a lot of time.

....but your infallible, Divinely Appointed 6th Imam (ra) says it was Allah (swt) who declared such a thing.  So did he lie?  Maybe you can finally answer now.


Quote
No, there is no need for that. I've got a better idea, why don't you put aside your arrogance and accept that it's not necessary that everything has to be in and from the Qur'an just as this example.

It is not in the Qur'an and you accept that not everything has to be in the Qur'an.  So when the Imam (ra) says "Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible", the fact that such a statement is not present in the Qur'an does not mean you can disregard the hadith.

So now you are stuck with two options:

1.  You can rubbish the hadith because Allah (swt) does not declare "the blood of two types of people permissible" (verbatim) in the Qur'an. 

                                                                             OR

2.  You must accept the words of the Imam (ra) and concede that you were wrong in asking for proof from the Qur'an while also issuing an apology for accusing Abu Bakr (ra) and Khalid (ra) of a crime they did not commit. 

I remind you that option one is no longer available to you because you have already conceded that "it's not necessary that everything has to be in the Qur'an".

Waiting for your apology!


Quote
First you need to get the story right. Did men from Khalid’s convoy complain to Abu Bakr that Khalid acted hastily, they saw Malik and men from his tribe pray. And Abu Bakr decided to interrogate Khalid and once he did he decided that Khalid had made a grave mistake by acting without looking into something thoroughly and properly.

Does not matter!  Haste or delay, Khalid (ra) did exactly what Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) ordered Muslims to do (with those who refuse to pay Zakat).


Quote
Malik was accused of becoming an apostate but when you look into the matter with an open mind and thoroughly then the evidence of a Companion suddenly becoming an apostate is extremely weak.

Again, for refusing to pay Zakat, Malik became an apostate and this notion is in line with the ruling by Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra).

Quote
How?

Didn't expect you to see your contradiction but it would be sufficient if you address the ones I've highlighted in this post (for now)!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 01:14:46 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

wannabe

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #226 on: July 31, 2018, 02:22:59 AM »
Quote
However, we came to learn from humanity’s experience that all methods and systems developed by man are flawed and imperfect. Indeed, the most perfect form of government we ever reached is one where a divinely chosen individual guided by God rules over the subjects and decides for them, this system is recognized by humanity as “The Prophethood”.
i was thinking :-
1. in the light of the above statement and
2. [Shakir 5:3] ...This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;...

How could Allah have perfected for us our religion and completed His favor upon us, when the single most important thing that could have prevented us from being divisive ie  who should be our leader (imam), is not mentioned at all by Allah through His Prophet's mouth? or did i miss anything?

Hani

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #227 on: July 31, 2018, 07:02:35 AM »
i was thinking :-
1. in the light of the above statement and
2. [Shakir 5:3] ...This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;...

How could Allah have perfected for us our religion and completed His favor upon us, when the single most important thing that could have prevented us from being divisive ie  who should be our leader (imam), is not mentioned at all by Allah through His Prophet's mouth? or did i miss anything?

Not a sound statement, humans are programmed to be most quarrelsome and divisive no matter what you do. Unless you have prophets guiding you 24/7 through miracles, you will continue to have disagreements with others; the point of the religion is to follow the spiritual and moral guidelines then exert an effort to deal with secondary topics like politics and economy based on your expertise and knowledge.

Perfecting a religion simply means clarifying the message and completing the tenets and rituals, however our lifestyles, our daily struggles and dilemmas, all far from "perfect" nor was anything meant to be perfect as it relates to humanity. Take the Twelvers, they believe `Ali is the divine leader, yet when he ruled how did that stop the nation from being divisive? Whether he was divine or not divine the same exact outcome would have happened, because we are human and that's what you're dealing with.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #228 on: July 31, 2018, 10:03:19 AM »
Not a sound statement, humans are programmed to be most quarrelsome and divisive no matter what you do. Unless you have prophets guiding you 24/7 through miracles, you will continue to have disagreements with others; the point of the religion is to follow the spiritual and moral guidelines then exert an effort to deal with secondary topics like politics and economy based on your expertise and knowledge.

Perfecting a religion simply means clarifying the message and completing the tenets and rituals, however our lifestyles, our daily struggles and dilemmas, all far from "perfect" nor was anything meant to be perfect as it relates to humanity. Take the Twelvers, they believe `Ali is the divine leader, yet when he ruled how did that stop the nation from being divisive? Whether he was divine or not divine the same exact outcome would have happened, because we are human and that's what you're dealing with.

The Prophet s.a.w was and still is there to guide us 24/7, that is what sharia law is all about.  Yes humans are programmed to be most quarrelsome even when the Prophet s.a.w was around. They didn't even spare him.

The Prophet s.a.w only wanted to write something so they (companions/Ummah) don't deviate. But they weren't interested. They had the book of Allah among them and they thought that was enough.

See what the problem is and where it developed from. It is clear that Allah wouldn't leave Qur'an and Sunnah in the hands of anybody who got into authority. Allah has mentioned third in line in authority after him and the Prophet s.a.w pointed them out on numerous occasions. Allah purified them to the state of purification but others had different intentions. You know what previous  nations were  like and how much they followed their Messenger/Prophet's advice. This one didn't come out any different.

Mythbuster1

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #229 on: July 31, 2018, 11:45:59 AM »
You know what previous  nations were  like and how much they followed their Messenger/Prophet's advice. This one didn't come out any different.

I beg to differ.............surah imran..........”You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.”

As well as Allah swt being pleased with the sahaba ra who followed the prophet saw

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allaah and (His) Good Pleasure. The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Tawraat (Torah). But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allaah has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islamic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward (i.e. Paradise)”

[al-Fath 48:29]

.......so yes we are greatly different from other nations, see how EASY Quran defends the truth and especially the truthful ones who supported the Nabi saw and His message, so stop with your nonsense please and your alien ideas which have no basis in the divine book.

You lot differed and added alien concepts that the prophet saw didn’t say or insinuate so you Shiites are like them other nations not listening to prophets as and lowering their status in comparison to normal human imams, in other words just like the previous nations disregarding previous prophets status, you are doing the same and raising later born humans status higher than Allah swt’s CHOSEN DIVINE PROPHETS.



iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #230 on: July 31, 2018, 12:40:33 PM »
i was thinking :-
1. in the light of the above statement and
2. [Shakir 5:3] ...This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;...

How could Allah have perfected for us our religion and completed His favor upon us, when the single most important thing that could have prevented us from being divisive ie  who should be our leader (imam), is not mentioned at all by Allah through His Prophet's mouth? or did i miss anything?

Beautifully put forward and then unfortunately back to square one again. I was going to mention this verse next but there's a lot going on.

"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;... "

What exactly happened on that particular day? Surely something must have occurred? Would you mind telling me what happened where religion was perfected on that day, before this day religion wasn't perfected, also Allah completed his favours upon the Muslims but without what happened favours were incomplete, and Islam was finally and fully chosen? Come on, what exactly happened?

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #231 on: July 31, 2018, 02:58:09 PM »
I beg to differ.............surah imran..........”You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.”

As well as Allah swt being pleased with the sahaba ra who followed the prophet saw

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allaah and (His) Good Pleasure. The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Tawraat (Torah). But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allaah has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islamic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward (i.e. Paradise)”

[al-Fath 48:29]

.......so yes we are greatly different from other nations, see how EASY Quran defends the truth and especially the truthful ones who supported the Nabi saw and His message, so stop with your nonsense please and your alien ideas which have no basis in the divine book.

You lot differed and added alien concepts that the prophet saw didn’t say or insinuate so you Shiites are like them other nations not listening to prophets as and lowering their status in comparison to normal human imams, in other words just like the previous nations disregarding previous prophets status, you are doing the same and raising later born humans status higher than Allah swt’s CHOSEN DIVINE PROPHETS.

As well as Allah swt being pleased with the sahaba ra who followed the prophet saw"

The Sahaba? Whether Allah is pleased with them or not surely they weren't pleased with each other. They did their best to make life complicated and difficult for each other. They shed blood of each other, that's how far they went. Surely you can't keep putting them on the same platform and consider them equal and the same. And what did Caliphate bring, violence and threatening behaviour on the Muslims by the Muslims.

"so stop with your nonsense please and your alien ideas which have no basis in the divine book"

Are you going to tell me what Umar ibn Al Khataab told the people that 'you have the book of Allah with you and that should be sufficient for us" ? And you're telling me that they believed in the Prophet s.a.w and took every word of his ?

wannabe

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #232 on: July 31, 2018, 03:50:35 PM »
Not a sound statement,
page 2/123, Kitab-ul-Saqifah, a bit more longer extract
"Humanity strived throughout the ages to develop an ideal way of selecting leaders to govern its affairs. A number of modern nations decided that every citizen can cast his vote in a box thus producing a leader selected by the majority in a democratic process. Some thinkers found that the rule of the elites or philosophers was best, because the fate of the nation cannot be entrusted to commoners and laymen. Others believed that certain higher races or designated bloodlines may rule over all others to avoid future chaos or bloody power struggles. However, we came to learn from humanity’s experience that all methods and systems developed by man are flawed and imperfect. Indeed, the most perfect form of government we ever reached is one where a divinely chosen individual guided by God rules over the subjects and decides for them, this system is recognized by humanity as “The Prophethood”."
i do agree that selection by man  is flawed and imperfect, not only witnessed through history but also by Quran.
[Shakir 7:155] And Musa chose out of his people seventy men for Our appointment;.....

Quote
humans are programmed to be most quarrelsome and divisive no matter what you do.
[Shakir 11:119] Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
Quote
Unless you have prophets guiding you 24/7 through miracles, you will continue to have disagreements with others; the point of the religion is to follow the spiritual and moral guidelines then exert an effort to deal with secondary topics like politics and economy based on your expertise and knowledge.

Perfecting a religion simply means clarifying the message and completing the tenets and rituals, however our lifestyles, our daily struggles and dilemmas, all far from "perfect" nor was anything meant to be perfect as it relates to humanity. Take the Twelvers, they believe `Ali is the divine leader, yet when he ruled how did that stop the nation from being divisive? Whether he was divine or not divine the same exact outcome would have happened, because we are human and that's what you're dealing with.
honestly, i don't have enough knowledge to give a meaningful comment.
however, i believe
[Shakir 6:38] And there is no animal that walks upon the earth nor a bird that flies with its two wings but (they are) genera like yourselves; We have not neglected anything in the Book, then to their Lord shall they be gathered.
[Shakir 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few.
Allahu a'lam.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #233 on: July 31, 2018, 04:16:56 PM »
"You lot differed and added alien concepts that the prophet saw didn’t say or insinuate so you Shiites are like them other nations not listening to prophets as and lowering their status in comparison to normal human imams, in other words just like the previous nations disregarding previous prophets status, you are doing the same and raising later born humans status higher than Allah swt’s CHOSEN DIVINE PROPHETS."

We didn’t add anything, in fact only our belief is according to the Qur'an. We know Imamah and our Imams clearly but you certainly know where your Caliphate began but you don't know where it went from there, who to accept and reject and where it ends.That's the kind of system you believe in, man made. The only person who did listen to the Prophet s.a.w was Umar ibn Al Khataab and those who sided with him and just stuck to the Qur'an totally disregarding and sidelining the Prophet s.a.w. How long are you going to run and avoid these subjects.

wannabe

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #234 on: July 31, 2018, 04:32:06 PM »
Beautifully put forward and then unfortunately back to square one again. I was going to mention this verse next but there's a lot going on.

"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;... "

What exactly happened on that particular day? Surely something must have occurred? Would you mind telling me what happened where religion was perfected on that day, before this day religion wasn't perfected, also Allah completed his favours upon the Muslims but without what happened favours were incomplete, and Islam was finally and fully chosen? Come on, what exactly happened?
i was a salafi and then a sufi, if reading their books makes me one. the same goes with reading shia books.
i think we failed big time with respect to:
[Shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited,
[Shakir 30:32] Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
let's not worsen the matter. there's a way out.
[Shakir 5:48] ... therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
Allahu a'lam

Mythbuster1

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #235 on: July 31, 2018, 07:32:37 PM »
As well as Allah swt being pleased with the sahaba ra who followed the prophet saw"

The Sahaba? Whether Allah is pleased with them or not surely they weren't pleased with each other. They did their best to make life complicated and difficult for each other. They shed blood of each other, that's how far they went. Surely you can't keep putting them on the same platform and consider them equal and the same. And what did Caliphate bring, violence and threatening behaviour on the Muslims by the Muslims.

"so stop with your nonsense please and your alien ideas which have no basis in the divine book"

Are you going to tell me what Umar ibn Al Khataab told the people that 'you have the book of Allah with you and that should be sufficient for us" ? And you're telling me that they believed in the Prophet s.a.w and took every word of his ?

Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do.........divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL

Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate but you just can’t find that hate for the sahaba ra in the Quran it’s just in your false thoughts and evil mindset.....yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Quran while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran

You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds who is waiting for 313 followers before he will come out and help the millions of Muslims dying..........when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die while they was scared and hiding????

again one more time........you have ALIEN ideas and concepts that are nowhere in the Quran as can be seen by your responses😁👍

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #236 on: July 31, 2018, 11:05:34 PM »
i was a salafi and then a sufi, if reading their books makes me one. the same goes with reading shia books.
i think we failed big time with respect to:
[Shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited,
[Shakir 30:32] Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
let's not worsen the matter. there's a way out.
[Shakir 5:48] ... therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
Allahu a'lam

You know what, this is probably the only nicest thing that anybody has said. All the rest is sectarian driven. I can't argue with what you've said. All I can contribute to this is, LIVE AND LET LIVE! STICK TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN AND GIVE OTHERS THE SAME RIGHT!

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #237 on: August 01, 2018, 05:58:20 AM »
Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do.........divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL

Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate but you just can’t find that hate for the sahaba ra in the Quran it’s just in your false thoughts and evil mindset.....yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Quran while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran

You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds who is waiting for 313 followers before he will come out and help the millions of Muslims dying..........when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die while they was scared and hiding????

again one more time........you have ALIEN ideas and concepts that are nowhere in the Quran as can be seen by your responses😁👍

"Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do........."

ALLOWED? Nobody is ALLOWED. You make mistakes, errors or have faults then there are consequences. But first you take responsibility. Don't brush things aside just because of prestige or privilege or no one has certificate of approval because of status.

"Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate"

I don't HATE anybody. When did I say or what made you say this? Talking about what actually happened based on reality and facts isn't hate. Point out mistakes, errors, faults and what went wrong isn't hate. Do you know what hate is? You hate me and my kind, why or what makes me say this? Because you can't see anything good, useful and right with us. There's not a single decent or positive thing that you have said about us. That spells hate.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #238 on: August 01, 2018, 06:48:52 AM »
Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do.........divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL

Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate but you just can’t find that hate for the sahaba ra in the Quran it’s just in your false thoughts and evil mindset.....yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Quran while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran

You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds who is waiting for 313 followers before he will come out and help the millions of Muslims dying..........when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die while they was scared and hiding????

again one more time........you have ALIEN ideas and concepts that are nowhere in the Quran as can be seen by your responses😁👍

"divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL"

Are you serious? Tell me who goes off topic and thread. You boys violate any principle and break any rule, you can say what ever you like and want and that's how it is, have you boys got a free pass or certificate to do, say and behave as you please. No check and balance! what, the admins and mods are.there just to select and pick certain fish.

"while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran"

Where in the Qur'an are these Sahaba mentioned and praised?

"You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds"

😀 You've probably forgot that there are also two others hiding like the sun behind the clouds according to your description, Jesus and Khizar. Any loving thoughts for these two? 😊

"yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Qur'an"

😀 Already commented on this, there's plenty in the Qur'an but it just doesn't suit you. 😊

"when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die"

Come on, are you serious? They didn't let millions die but killed and allowed hundreds if not thousands to be killed. Jamal, Safeen, etc. It's all there let alone Malik and his clan or Hussain and his family and followers.

Mythbuster1

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #239 on: August 01, 2018, 09:15:42 AM »
"Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do........."

ALLOWED? Nobody is ALLOWED. You make mistakes, errors or have faults then there are consequences. But first you take responsibility. Don't brush things aside just because of prestige or privilege or no one has certificate of approval because of status.

"Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate"

I don't HATE anybody. When did I say or what made you say this? Talking about what actually happened based on reality and facts isn't hate. Point out mistakes, errors, faults and what went wrong isn't hate. Do you know what hate is? You hate me and my kind, why or what makes me say this? Because you can't see anything good, useful and right with us. There's not a single decent or positive thing that you have said about us. That spells hate.

Of course humans make mistakes even the imams ra made mistakes what planet are you on? There was no major consequence unless you are a fairytale divinity Imamate believing Shiite, then saqifa was a disaster and Sahaba s erred in that.

I have Shiite friends very close and that’s that I love them for the sake of Allah swt so I wouldn’t say I hate Shias, YOU on the other hand hate saqifa and the sahaba you are even defending a kaafir like nawaira against a sahabi e rasul saw, your posts always refer to saqifa not only with me but with other posters too, just cos divine Imamate never got a chance hence it was saqifas and Sahabas fault.......come on you have NOTHING else even from Quran you can’t prove saqifa wrong yet I can prove divine Imamate is wrong and not in Quran .......simple as that.

 

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