Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?

[iceman]

We both agree that Malik refused to pay Zakah.  I know you place a condition around his refusal but your "infallible" Imams (ra) declared apostasy on those who refuse to pay Zakah, without any conditions.  And they asked for such individuals to be put to death.  I have already shared the reports from Al-Kafi more than once.

Prove from the Qur'an that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams".  Time to put you in your own straitjacket.

.....but according to your "infallible" Imams (ra), anyone who refuses to pay Zakah is an apostate and to be put to death.  While you don't know our position, please explain why are you disobeying your own "infallible" Imams (ra)?  Do you know the ruling on rejecting an Imam or his words in Shiaism?  Hahaha, you're tightening the noose around your own neck.

"We both agree that Malik refused to pay Zakah.  I know you place a condition around his refusal but your "infallible" Imams (ra) declared apostasy on those who refuse to pay Zakah, without any conditions.  And they asked for such individuals to be put to death.  I have already shared the reports from Al-Kafi more than once"

No, there is are difference. You don't pay Zakah, as a matter of fact you GIVE ZAKAH. According to our belief the first Caliph brought in a new policy, he wanted all the people to pay Zakah to the newly found government. Others weren't happy with this new policy. That's the difference.

First we need to establish that do we GIVE ZAKAH or do we PAY ZAKAH. Lets discuss this in general and not make it personal. Can we do that. Can you do that. As far as Al Kafi is concerned, or any other book, there are a lot of things we don't accept or agree to. So why do we pick and choose what suits us. Discuss it in black and white. Prove to me from the Qur'an. That is the genuine source for me as well as you.

"Prove from the Qur'an that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams".  Time to put you in your own straitjacket"

Once you've proven from the Qur'an what I've asked you or admit that it can't be proven from the Qur'an or tell me it's not necessary to be proven from the Qur'an and why then you can put me in which ever jacket you like. In the mean time the ball is still in your court. You need to serve.

I'm not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an. Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.

[iceman]

I know and met imam Asim I live in the same city as him too, I’ve prayed at his masjid a few times.

Lol imam Asim in the second vid at 16.20 Mark says imam Hussein ra asked for 3 things........so it wasn’t much about He ra saved islam then, for He would have gone if yazeed agreed.

Do you even watch these vids? If He was to save islam then why ask for 3 things?

When you post vids do please tell us at what minutes they say stuff which you are referring to please, it’s like your just forwarding stuff you haven’t even checked yourself.

Again he is no big scholar or is well known in Islamic world he also has limited knowledge of Arabic like most like Dr Qadri, these are local mullahs my friend......you are really in desperation mode.

"I know and met imam Asim I live in the same city as him too, I’ve prayed at his masjid a few times"

Well then you shouldn't have any problem what so ever in putting the question straight to him. Ask him and see what he has to say. Make a footage while you're at it  and post it right here for all of us to see.😊

[iceman]

https://youtu.be/Jrx_Rq6uVkg

[muslim720]

No, there is are difference. You don't pay Zakah, as a matter of fact you GIVE ZAKAH.

Semantics; no problem!  Who do you give Zakah to?

According to our belief the first Caliph brought in a new policy, he wanted all the people to pay Zakah to the newly found government. Others weren't happy with this new policy. That's the difference.

New policy?  What new policy?  Malik was responsible for collection of Zakah and their dispatch to Madina.  Abu Bakr (ra) was going with status quo - that is, he expected Zakah to flow in just like it would prior to his Caliphate - until Malik declared "now you are the owner of your wealth" to his tribe and aligned with self-proclaimed prophetess Sajjah.

What will you say next?  May Allah be pleased with Sajjah, Musaylmah or Tulayha?

First we need to establish that do we GIVE ZAKAH or do we PAY ZAKAH. Lets discuss this in general and not make it personal. Can we do that. Can you do that.

What....I won't even....all I can say is that you're a piece of crap.  Sometimes it becomes necessary for some people to have been swallowed at birth.  You are the leading candidate, as far as I'm concerned.

As far as Al Kafi is concerned, or any other book, there are a lot of things we don't accept or agree to. So why do we pick and choose what suits us. Discuss it in black and white.

Very good!  You have proven yourself to be a kafir, according to Shi'i standards for rejecting your own Imams (ra).

I asked Imam Baqir (a.s.): I want to describe before you my religion through which I worship Allah. He said: Do describe. I submitted: I give witness that Allah is One and that Muhammad (S) is His messenger and I believe in all the things brought by the Holy Prophet (S) from the Almighty Allah and I also accept (believe) that Ali (a.s.) was the Imam whose obedience was made obligatory by Allah and that after him was Imam Hasan (a.s.) who was such Imam and thereafter Imam Husain (a.s.) whose obedience was made compulsory by Allah and that after him was Imam Ali bin Husain (a.s.) whose obedience was a must according to Divine Command and thereafter I described the names of all the subsequent Imams until I mentioned his name and said that I accept his Imamate as a must. He said: Yes, this is the religion of Allah and the religion of the angels of Allah. (https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-6-it-obligatory-obey-true-imams)

Once you've proven from the Qur'an what I've asked you or admit that it can't be proven from the Qur'an or tell me it's not necessary to be proven from the Qur'an and why then you can put me in which ever jacket you like.

So you admit that it was a straitjacket tactic!  lol, that is all I wanted!

You need to serve.

For the number of times you've been served, you should be the last one to ever employ that word.

I'm not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an. Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.

I am not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an.  Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.  Give me your claim that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams" from the Qur'an.

[Hani]

Bro Muslim720, are you in the US? I wonder if ur one of the many ppl I'm skyping with because I lost track.

[iceman]

Semantics; no problem!  Who do you give Zakah to?

New policy?  What new policy?  Malik was responsible for collection of Zakah and their dispatch to Madina.  Abu Bakr (ra) was going with status quo - that is, he expected Zakah to flow in just like it would prior to his Caliphate - until Malik declared "now you are the owner of your wealth" to his tribe and aligned with self-proclaimed prophetess Sajjah.

What will you say next?  May Allah be pleased with Sajjah, Musaylmah or Tulayha?

What....I won't even....all I can say is that you're a piece of crap.  Sometimes it becomes necessary for some people to have been swallowed at birth.  You are the leading candidate, as far as I'm concerned.

Very good!  You have proven yourself to be a kafir, according to Shi'i standards for rejecting your own Imams (ra).

I asked Imam Baqir (a.s.): I want to describe before you my religion through which I worship Allah. He said: Do describe. I submitted: I give witness that Allah is One and that Muhammad (S) is His messenger and I believe in all the things brought by the Holy Prophet (S) from the Almighty Allah and I also accept (believe) that Ali (a.s.) was the Imam whose obedience was made obligatory by Allah and that after him was Imam Hasan (a.s.) who was such Imam and thereafter Imam Husain (a.s.) whose obedience was made compulsory by Allah and that after him was Imam Ali bin Husain (a.s.) whose obedience was a must according to Divine Command and thereafter I described the names of all the subsequent Imams until I mentioned his name and said that I accept his Imamate as a must. He said: Yes, this is the religion of Allah and the religion of the angels of Allah. (https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-6-it-obligatory-obey-true-imams)

So you admit that it was a straitjacket tactic!  lol, that is all I wanted!

For the number of times you've been served, you should be the last one to ever employ that word.

I am not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an.  Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.  Give me your claim that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams" from the Qur'an.

"Semantics; no problem!  Who do you give Zakah to?"

I've already mentioned this in post #24. But here it is again just for you;

"The alms are only for the Fuqara' (the poor), and Al-Masakin (the needy) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allah's Cause, and for the wayfarer (a traveler who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allah. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise." [Al-Quran 9:60]"

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

Zakat (also known as 'Zakah'), is the giving of a set amount of your wealth to charity. Muslims pay Zakat as an act of worship, and although it is sometimes compared to a tax, it isn't like taxes imposed by governments. Zakat is a spiritual duty, solely for the sake of Allah

The Qur’an mentions eight groups of people on who Zakat should be spent:

(Surat At-Tawbah 9:60)

The Fuqara’ (the poor)
Al-Maskin (the needy)
Aamileen (Zakat collector)
Muallafatul Quloob (poor and needy who recently converted to Islam)
Ar-Riqaab (slaves; Zakat can be used to purchase their freedom)
Ibnus-Sabeel: A stranded traveller in need of financial assistance.
Al Ghaarimeen: A debtor
Fi Sabeelillah: Those who are away from home in the path of Allah

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler? Or where does it say that the ruler has the right to force people to pay Zakah to him and he decides what to do with the money and how and where it should be spent?

"Malik declared "now you are the owner of your wealth" to his tribe and aligned with self-proclaimed prophetess Sajjah."

I've said this before that we don't believe in this ridiculous accusation about Malik. Your question and claim is only valid if we shared this view with you and then banged on about Yazeed but were silent on Malik.

"Very good!  You have proven yourself to be a kafir, according to Shi'i standards for rejecting your own Imams (ra)."

KAFIR? I know your kind are quick at accusing. This is nothing new.

"(https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-6-it-obligatory-obey-true-imams)"

Look at the above you posted. When it comes to Islam.org It's OK for you to post/copy and paste but not for me 😊

"So you admit that it was a straitjacket tactic!  lol, that is all I wanted!"

You haven't answered or addressed my question or query. You're still dancing around it. Here it is again in case you've forgotten;

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler? Or where does it say that the ruler has the right to force people to pay Zakah to him and he decides what to do with the money and how and where it should be spent?

Once you've answered or addressed this then please do go ahead with any jacket. The balls still sitting in your court.

"I am not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an.  Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.  Give me your claim that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams" from the Qur'an."

By all means. I asked and put it to you first. Once you've stopped dancing around and either answered the Question or addressed the matter or at least have the decency to put your hands up then I'm all yours. Remember, if you're asked a question or asked to address something then you do that rather than running away from it and throwing one back in return without answering or addressing just to save your skin.

[muslim720]

I've already mentioned this in post #24. But here it is again just for you;

Really?  Let us see!

"The alms are only for the Fuqara' (the poor), and Al-Masakin (the needy) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allah's Cause, and for the wayfarer (a traveler who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allah. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise." [Al-Quran 9:60]"

Copied from: https://www.islamichelp.org.uk/zakat/

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

The other day you were barking that Zakat is given, not paid.  Well, read these excerpts:

"Zakat as we Shia calculate is payable on 9 items only".  Payable, not given!

"The Qur’an, while ordering us to pay zakat, has not outlined the items on which zakat is applicable."  According to Shi'i sources, Qur'an order us to pay, not give, Zakat.

“Your master is only Allah, His Messenger, and those who believe: those who establish the prayer and pay the zakat while they are in ruku‘.” (5:55)  Your "Verse of Wilayah" debunked you, lol!

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/zakat-shia-fiqh-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

Zakat (also known as 'Zakah'), is the giving of a set amount of your wealth to charity. Muslims pay Zakat as an act of worship, and although it is sometimes compared to a tax, it isn't like taxes imposed by governments. Zakat is a spiritual duty, solely for the sake of Allah

Copied from: http://hadithoftheday.com/what-is-zakat/

On the same webpage, the article clarifies what they mean by "it isn't like taxes imposed by governments".  It lists the misconceptions regarding Zakat and states that Zakat is not "A tax.  Tax is requirement of secular (non-religious) law."  In other words, they are differentiating Zakat from the secular, non-religious tax.

The Qur’an mentions eight groups of people on who Zakat should be spent:

(Surat At-Tawbah 9:60)

The Fuqara’ (the poor)
Al-Maskin (the needy)
Aamileen (Zakat collector)
Muallafatul Quloob (poor and needy who recently converted to Islam)
Ar-Riqaab (slaves; Zakat can be used to purchase their freedom)
Ibnus-Sabeel: A stranded traveller in need of financial assistance.
Al Ghaarimeen: A debtor
Fi Sabeelillah: Those who are away from home in the path of Allah

Copied from: https://www.islamichelp.org.uk/zakat/

These are 8 groups upon whom Zakat should be spent.  Spending on these 8 categories does not mean that one is forbidden from entrusting Zakat to an organization or to the leader of Muslims or to an appointed Zakat collector.  The organization, leader of Muslims or the appointed Zakat collector spends on these 8 categories of people after Zakat is entrusted to them.

You were in such a hurry to copy-paste that you failed to see the third category, "aamileen", meaning the "Zakat collector".  We know that the Zakat collectors can spend it on those categories of people but would you care to tell us who they collect on behalf of?  You shot yourself in the foot!

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler? 

The word "pay" occurs in Surah Al-Ma'idah verse 55.

As for where it says to pay to someone, your own copy-paste was a shot to your foot.  Surah Taubah verse 60 says, "The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise."

The Qur'an establishes the concept of people being tasked with collecting Zakat.  Hence, if there are those who collect Zakat, they can only do so if they are in authority.  And you can only be an authoritative person if you are the ruler or if the ruler has assigned you the task (of collecting the Zakat).

Thank you for copy-pasting from Islamichelp.org.uk.  Your own copy-paste (which you didn't provide a link for) helped me meet your challenge.

I've said this before that we don't believe in this ridiculous accusation about Malik. Your question and claim is only valid if we shared this view with you and then banged on about Yazeed but were silent on Malik.

What proof do you have to exonerate Malik of this "ridiculous accusation"?  I know the nonsense you believe in; I just don't see any evidence that can be scrutinized for your idiotic beliefs.

KAFIR? I know your kind are quick at accusing. This is nothing new.

According to Islamic sources and your Imams (ra), anyone who refuses to pay Zakat is a kafir.  Furthermore, disobeying Imams (ra) is tantamount to kufr, according to Shi'i sources.  And I provided Shi'i hadiths as proof.

Look at the above you posted. When it comes to Islam.org It's OK for you to post/copy and paste but not for me 😊

The difference, dip$hit, is that I reference them.  I give you the link to my material.  You do not because, as we learned in this post, your lies are mostly refuted in the same articles that you copy-paste blindly.

You haven't answered or addressed my question or query. You're still dancing around it. Here it is again in case you've forgotten;

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler?

Already answered!  Surah At-Taubah verse 60.  If there can be a Zakat collector then it necessitates that he or she is collecting as the leader or working on behalf of someone with certain degree of authority.

Once you've answered or addressed this then please do go ahead with any jacket. The balls still sitting in your court.

I have answered your point.  Now show me, where does it say in the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to the "infallible Imams"?

By all means. I asked and put it to you first. Once you've stopped dancing around and either answered the Question or addressed the matter or at least have the decency to put your hands up then I'm all yours. Remember, if you're asked a question or asked to address something then you do that rather than running away from it and throwing one back in return without answering or addressing just to save your skin.

blah blah blah!

[muslim720]

The fact that you have copy-pasted from Islamic websites where one can pay Zakat proves that Zakat can be entrusted to an authoritative body, whether it be a ruler, a Zakat collector or an organization (such as IslamicHelp, IslamicRelief, etc).

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Iceman is just embarassing himself now.
When it was proven from shia sources that the ‘infallible Imams’ follwed the same process as Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) in collecting zakat, iceman decides to divert the topic to wanting proof from the Quran only.
Thats like asking to prove from the Quran whether we should fold out hands or leave them aside in Salah.
Zakat, like Salah is established in the Quran.
Your belief is only Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) knew the true meaning of the Quran & both sunni & shia source show he made it obligatory for the people to pay the zakah to his representatives to collect.
This has been established.
Argument over.

[iceman]

It certainly looks like you gentlemen are definitely enjoying yourselves by turning this into a circus.

It doesn't matter who it is be it rulers or Imams or any registered charity or authorised Zakah collectors or who ever, if someone refuses to hand over the Zakah money or even doesn't pay Zakah or Khums, as I'm sure just as many people don't fast or regularly pray or don't pray at all,

Does the ruler, Imam, Zakah collector or the authority/governing body in charge have a right to use violence and or threatening behaviour to get Muslims to pay Zakah or use heavy handed tactics to collect the Zakah money.

Does the governing body have the right to behead people for refusing to pay Zakah. Such a simple matter has been turned into a circus because you refuse to answer and address.

I'm not a coward and I will answer. I've seen you gentlemen and I've given you enough time.

[muslim720]

It certainly looks like you gentlemen are definitely enjoying yourselves by turning this into a circus.

We did not intend for this to turn into a circus but when you entered the picture, we got a circus animal and we haven't looked back since then.

It doesn't matter who it is be it rulers or Imams or any registered charity or authorised Zakah collectors or who ever, if someone refuses to hand over the Zakah money or even doesn't pay Zakah or Khums, as I'm sure just as many people don't fast or regularly pray or don't pray at all,

You insisted that Zakat is given, not paid.  I showed you from the Qur'an and Shi'i sources that Zakat can also be "paid"; that the word "pay" is also used in reference to Zakat.

I also met your challenge!  Surah At-Tawbah verse 60 says that "those who collect them" can benefit from Zakat which means that there can be people who are vested with the authority to collect Zakat.  Such an authority can only come from a higher authoritative body or if the collector is the one with absolute authority.

Does the ruler, Imam, Zakah collector or the authority/governing body in charge have a right to use violence and or threatening behaviour to get Muslims to pay Zakah or use heavy handed tactics to collect the Zakah money.

We have you on record saying that you would answer my question after I have met your challenge.  Well, guess what, your challenge has been met.  Now prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams".

Does the governing body have the right to behead people for refusing to pay Zakah. Such a simple matter has been turned into a circus because you refuse to answer and address.

....after you answer my question.  Mind you, at any given point, you can throw in the towel and quit.  It might save you a lot of headache and embarrassment.

I'm not a coward and I will answer. I've seen you gentlemen and I've given you enough time.

Of course you will answer but with the most irrelevant, incoherent responses.

[iceman]

We did not intend for this to turn into a circus but when you entered the picture, we got a circus animal and we haven't looked back since then.

You insisted that Zakat is given, not paid.  I showed you from the Qur'an and Shi'i sources that Zakat can also be "paid"; that the word "pay" is also used in reference to Zakat.

I also met your challenge!  Surah At-Tawbah verse 60 says that "those who collect them" can benefit from Zakat which means that there can be people who are vested with the authority to collect Zakat.  Such an authority can only come from a higher authoritative body or if the collector is the one with absolute authority.

We have you on record saying that you would answer my question after I have met your challenge.  Well, guess what, your challenge has been met.  Now prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams".

....after you answer my question.  Mind you, at any given point, you can throw in the towel and quit.  It might save you a lot of headache and embarrassment.

Of course you will answer but with the most irrelevant, incoherent responses.

You've played around again just to avoid answering my question.

Here it is again in case you forgot,

Does the ruler, Imam, Zakah collector or the authority/governing body in charge have a right to use violence and or threatening behaviour to get Muslims to pay Zakah or use heavy handed tactics to collect the Zakah money. Does the governing body have the right to behead people for refusing to pay Zakah.

Can you prove and justify Abu Bakr's decision and Khaled bin Waleed's actions from the Qur'an.

It's a very important matter and should be justified and explained from the Qur'an. Capital punishment for not paying Zakah or handing over the Zakah money to the ruler/government/local authority needs to be proven from the Qur'an. Never mind about me, you're not an animal but a human. So start acting like one.

[muslim720]

You've played around again just to avoid answering my question.

You lying conman, piece of $hit!

Here it is again in case you forgot,

Does the ruler, Imam, Zakah collector or the authority/governing body in charge have a right to use violence and or threatening behaviour to get Muslims to pay Zakah or use heavy handed tactics to collect the Zakah money. Does the governing body have the right to behead people for refusing to pay Zakah.

In case you forgot, your original challenge - on page 4, post # 66 - was the following:
"Prove to me from the QUR'AN that rulers after Muhammad s.a.w  (regardless of who that ruler may be) has the God given right to force people to give Zakah and hand of the Zakah money to the regime. And if people refuse to hand over the Zakah money to the regime in place then they are WAJIB UL QATAL Basically they face the death penalty."

Using your own copy-paste, I proved to you from the Qur'an that people in authority can collect Zakat either directly or through appointed collectors.  Using sahih Shi'i hadiths, I proved to you that anyone who refuses to pay Zakat, never mind the circumstances, is an apostate who is punishable by death.

Much like you have one father, you get to pose one question.  This is a discussion not a mutah wholesale where an individual is allowed as many questions as fathers.  Hence, it is my turn to pose a question to you.  Can you prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Remember, you can throw in the towel anytime.

Can you prove and justify Abu Bakr's decision and Khaled bin Waleed's actions from the Qur'an.

Coming up...

It's a very important matter and should be justified and explained from the Qur'an. Capital punishment for not paying Zakah or handing over the Zakah money to the ruler/government/local authority needs to be proven from the Qur'an.

"Ibne Mahyar, Kulaini and other commentators have narrated from Imam Sadiq (a.s.) that: One who accepts the Wilayat of the Holy Imams (a.s.) and does not disobey their commands would not be misguided in this world and would not suffer in the hereafter.

In another traditions the Holy Prophet (S) says: O people, follow the guidance of Allah so that you may be guided and acquire goodness and improvement.  Guidance of Allah is my guidance and my guidance is the guidance of Ali (a.s.), one who follows his guidance in my life and after my passing away, he has followed the guidance of Allah.  He would never be misguided and a sinner."

Taken from: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-32-verses-pointing-holy-imams

"Imam Sadiq (a.s.) said: Some clear signs (verses) of Quran are in the hearts of those who have been given the knowledge, are the holy Imams from Aale Muhammad (a.s.) and in their hearts are both the words and the meanings of the Quran.

In Basairud Darajat, through reliable chains of narrators, Abu Baseer reports that Imam Baqir (a.s.) recited this verse and then said: Allah has not said that the Mushaf (text of Quran) is between two hardboard covers. Rather He has said that it is in the hearts of those who have been given the knowledge of it. Abu Baseer asked: are you those people? The Imam replied: Who else can be?

Kulaini has, with reliable chains of narrators, quoted Imam Baqir (a.s.) saying that no one has ever claimed but falsely that he knows the entire Quran as it has been revealed to the Holy Prophet (S) and that he has collected it and that he has remembered (learnt) it by heart except Ali Ibne Abi Talib (a.s.) and the Imams after him (they only have made such a claim truly).

It is mentioned in Basair that a man came to Imam Kazim (a.s.) and said: You are giving such explanation of Allah’s Book the like of which we have never heard before from anyone else. The Hazrat replied: The Holy Quran came to us before all others and we got its explanation before it reached anyone else. "

Taken from: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-3-those-who-have-knowledge-quran-are

Reading those excerpts, it becomes clear that no one knew the Qur'an like the Imams (ra), according to Shi'i aqeedah.  Now I remind you of all the things that Shi'i Imams (ra) said in regards to those who fail to pay Zakat.

Here are three narrations from Al-Kafi declaring those who refuse to pay Zakah as apostates:
   
‘Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar from Yunus from Ibn Muskan … on the authority of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad ibn ‘Ali Al-Baqir): “The Messenger of Allah addressed a group of people in the mosque telling some of them to get up [of the mosque] until he threw out five persons, then he said: “Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.” [Al Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “He who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Abu ‘Ali Al-Ash’ari, from the one who mentioned it, from Hafs ibn ‘Omar, from Salim, from Abu Basir, (It has been narrated) from Abu ‘Abdullah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian (i.e. kafir).” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

And what is the punishment for refusing to pay Zakah?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

The above narration can be found in many other primary and secondary Shia sources, such as:

1. Man La Yahduruhu Al-Faqih, vol. 2, p. 11
2. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
3. Al-Mahasin, p. 87, in Kamal Al-Din, v. 2, p. 671
4. Al-Khisal, v. 1, p. 169
5. Raudah Al-Wa’idhin, v. 2, p. 356
6. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
7. Basa’ir Al-Darajat, p. 170
8. Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 52, p. 309

Bye, piece of $hit!

[iceman]

You lying conman, piece of $hit!

In case you forgot, your original challenge - on page 4, post # 66 - was the following:
"Prove to me from the QUR'AN that rulers after Muhammad s.a.w  (regardless of who that ruler may be) has the God given right to force people to give Zakah and hand of the Zakah money to the regime. And if people refuse to hand over the Zakah money to the regime in place then they are WAJIB UL QATAL Basically they face the death penalty."

Using your own copy-paste, I proved to you from the Qur'an that people in authority can collect Zakat either directly or through appointed collectors.  Using sahih Shi'i hadiths, I proved to you that anyone who refuses to pay Zakat, never mind the circumstances, is an apostate who is punishable by death.

Much like you have one father, you get to pose one question.  This is a discussion not a mutah wholesale where an individual is allowed as many questions as fathers.  Hence, it is my turn to pose a question to you.  Can you prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Remember, you can throw in the towel anytime.

Coming up...

"Ibne Mahyar, Kulaini and other commentators have narrated from Imam Sadiq (a.s.) that: One who accepts the Wilayat of the Holy Imams (a.s.) and does not disobey their commands would not be misguided in this world and would not suffer in the hereafter.

In another traditions the Holy Prophet (S) says: O people, follow the guidance of Allah so that you may be guided and acquire goodness and improvement.  Guidance of Allah is my guidance and my guidance is the guidance of Ali (a.s.), one who follows his guidance in my life and after my passing away, he has followed the guidance of Allah.  He would never be misguided and a sinner."

Taken from: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-32-verses-pointing-holy-imams

"Imam Sadiq (a.s.) said: Some clear signs (verses) of Quran are in the hearts of those who have been given the knowledge, are the holy Imams from Aale Muhammad (a.s.) and in their hearts are both the words and the meanings of the Quran.

In Basairud Darajat, through reliable chains of narrators, Abu Baseer reports that Imam Baqir (a.s.) recited this verse and then said: Allah has not said that the Mushaf (text of Quran) is between two hardboard covers. Rather He has said that it is in the hearts of those who have been given the knowledge of it. Abu Baseer asked: are you those people? The Imam replied: Who else can be?

Kulaini has, with reliable chains of narrators, quoted Imam Baqir (a.s.) saying that no one has ever claimed but falsely that he knows the entire Quran as it has been revealed to the Holy Prophet (S) and that he has collected it and that he has remembered (learnt) it by heart except Ali Ibne Abi Talib (a.s.) and the Imams after him (they only have made such a claim truly).

It is mentioned in Basair that a man came to Imam Kazim (a.s.) and said: You are giving such explanation of Allah’s Book the like of which we have never heard before from anyone else. The Hazrat replied: The Holy Quran came to us before all others and we got its explanation before it reached anyone else. "

Taken from: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-3-those-who-have-knowledge-quran-are

Reading those excerpts, it becomes clear that no one knew the Qur'an like the Imams (ra), according to Shi'i aqeedah.  Now I remind you of all the things that Shi'i Imams (ra) said in regards to those who fail to pay Zakat.

Here are three narrations from Al-Kafi declaring those who refuse to pay Zakah as apostates:
   
‘Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar from Yunus from Ibn Muskan … on the authority of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad ibn ‘Ali Al-Baqir): “The Messenger of Allah addressed a group of people in the mosque telling some of them to get up [of the mosque] until he threw out five persons, then he said: “Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.” [Al Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “He who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Abu ‘Ali Al-Ash’ari, from the one who mentioned it, from Hafs ibn ‘Omar, from Salim, from Abu Basir, (It has been narrated) from Abu ‘Abdullah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian (i.e. kafir).” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

And what is the punishment for refusing to pay Zakah?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

The above narration can be found in many other primary and secondary Shia sources, such as:

1. Man La Yahduruhu Al-Faqih, vol. 2, p. 11
2. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
3. Al-Mahasin, p. 87, in Kamal Al-Din, v. 2, p. 671
4. Al-Khisal, v. 1, p. 169
5. Raudah Al-Wa’idhin, v. 2, p. 356
6. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
7. Basa’ir Al-Darajat, p. 170
8. Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 52, p. 309

Bye, piece of $hit!

I'm not going to ask you to watch your language because that's how and what you speak. Neither am I going to report you because it will be an absolute waste of time. I can clearly see that you're still dancing around turning and twisting, doing your very best to avoid answering or owning up. CAN'T ANSWER or WON'T ANSWER.

You need to prove from the Qur'an itself about forcing people to pay or hand over the Zakah money. And if they don't then they are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words they face the death penalty. You have really got yourself stuck, haven't you.

You can humiliate and insult me as much as you like or want. You can try your very best but you will never get a similar kind or type of reaction out of me which you so desperately want.

[muslim720]

I can clearly see that you're still dancing around turning and twisting, doing your very best to avoid answering or owning up. CAN'T ANSWER or WON'T ANSWER.

I showed you from the Qur'an that Zakat can be collected by a ruler or an authoritative body.  Now it is your turn to meet my challenge.  Instead you wish to follow it up with another question.  For that reason, I call you a POS because you do not know how to discuss; you assured me that you would answer my question after I answer yours.  Answer my question or get lost!

You need to prove from the Qur'an itself about forcing people to pay or hand over the Zakah money. And if they don't then they are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words they face the death penalty. You have really got yourself stuck, haven't you.

See, this is why you are a piece of $hit, the kind that gets stuck to the toilet commode and no matter how many times you flush it, just won't go away.

You can humiliate and insult me as much as you like or want. You can try your very best but you will never get a similar kind or type of reaction out of me which you so desperately want.

I don't want any reaction from you except an answer: where does it say that Zakat must be rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Acting like a piece of $hit is the same as being one and you have already established that by acting like one!

[iceman]

I'm not a coward neither do I need to dance around like you to avoid answering or owning up.

So here it comes, your question;

"Can you prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Remember, you can throw in the towel anytime."

I don't need to throw in the towel when I can easily throw in the answer unlike you.

Answer to your question,

When and where did I say or claim that Zakah is only rendered to infallible Imams. Can you provide references and prove to me where and when did I make such a claim. 😊 Lets hope you give an answer to at least something

[iceman]

I showed you from the Qur'an that Zakat can be collected by a ruler or an authoritative body.  Now it is your turn to meet my challenge.  Instead you wish to follow it up with another question.  For that reason, I call you a POS because you do not know how to discuss; you assured me that you would answer my question after I answer yours.  Answer my question or get lost!

See, this is why you are a piece of $hit, the kind that gets stuck to the toilet commode and no matter how many times you flush it, just won't go away.

I don't want any reaction from you except an answer: where does it say that Zakat must be rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Acting like a piece of $hit is the same as being one and you have already established that by acting like one!

"I showed you from the Qur'an that Zakat can be collected by a ruler or an authoritative body"

Would you kindly tell me in which post did you mention from the Qur'an that government/authority/rulers have the right to FORCE people to pay or give Zakah or FORCE people in handling over the Zakah money or they face CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, they are WAJIB UL QATAL

[muslim720]

I'm not a coward neither do I need to dance around like you to avoid answering or owning up.

I am almost certain now that you were bullied as a kid to see every challenge as confrontation.

Answer to your question,

When and where did I say or claim that Zakah is only rendered to infallible Imams. Can you provide references and prove to me where and when did I make such a claim. 😊

That is not the claim you made but that was my follow-up question.  I want you to see how I can straitjacket you just as good, even better, than you can straitjacket me (because I already proved to you that Zakat is to be rendered to the leader or to an authoritative body acting on behalf of the leader).  Straitjacketing, however, does not benefit the discussion.

Zakat is a pillar of Islam and if you abstain from paying or giving it, you are denying a Qur'anic injunction.  Denying a Qur'anic injunction puts you outside the fold of Islam.  Authentic narrations from Al-Kafi agrees that not paying Zakat makes one an apostate and "Wajib ul Qatal".  And disobeying your Imams (ra) on this point makes you an apostate, according to your own madhhab.  So why pretend you want Qur'anic proof when you are disobeying your own Imams (ra)?  Whereas we have seen you side with your Imams (ra) even when their (alleged, falsely-attributed-to-them) reports go against the Qur'an and Prophetic Sunnah.

Lets hope you give an answer to at least something

...I mean...la hawla wala quwata illa Billah!

[muslim720]

Would you kindly tell me in which post did you mention from the Qur'an that government/authority/rulers have the right to FORCE people to pay or give Zakah or FORCE people in handling over the Zakah money or they face CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, they are WAJIB UL QATAL

Straitjacketing failed you that now you have resorted to changing-goal-posts tactic. 

And what is with your repeated chanting of the phrase, "Wajib ul Qatal"?  I am starting to think you learned it from your relative who kept throwing the same phrase around in this video.

[iceman]

Straitjacketing failed you that now you have resorted to changing-goal-posts tactic. 

And what is with your repeated chanting of the phrase, "Wajib ul Qatal"?  I am starting to think you learned it from your relative who kept throwing the same phrase around in this video.

"you have resorted to changing-goal-posts tactic"

That's exactly your policy with this video you've posted. Still no answer from you. What a shame.