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Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?

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iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2018, 08:33:31 PM »
I am almost certain now that you were bullied as a kid to see every challenge as confrontation.

That is not the claim you made but that was my follow-up question.  I want you to see how I can straitjacket you just as good, even better, than you can straitjacket me (because I already proved to you that Zakat is to be rendered to the leader or to an authoritative body acting on behalf of the leader).  Straitjacketing, however, does not benefit the discussion.

Zakat is a pillar of Islam and if you abstain from paying or giving it, you are denying a Qur'anic injunction.  Denying a Qur'anic injunction puts you outside the fold of Islam.  Authentic narrations from Al-Kafi agrees that not paying Zakat makes one an apostate and "Wajib ul Qatal".  And disobeying your Imams (ra) on this point makes you an apostate, according to your own madhhab.  So why pretend you want Qur'anic proof when you are disobeying your own Imams (ra)?  Whereas we have seen you side with your Imams (ra) even when their (alleged, falsely-attributed-to-them) reports go against the Qur'an and Prophetic Sunnah.

...I mean...la hawla wala quwata illa Billah!

"I am almost certain now that you were bullied as a kid to see every challenge as confrontation"

Then why are you behaving in a manner as though you were bullied.

Still no answer from you. I definitely think you should stop embarrassing yourself and just slip away.

muslim720

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #101 on: July 05, 2018, 09:05:03 PM »
"I am almost certain now that you were bullied as a kid to see every challenge as confrontation"

Then why are you behaving in a manner as though you were bullied.

Still no answer from you. I definitely think you should stop embarrassing yourself and just slip away.

I wish we had this discussion in person.  In the meantime, my du'a is this: may Allah (swt) make Malik's abode your eternal abode and may Allah (swt) make Abu Bakr's (ra) and Khaled's (ra) abode as my eternal abode.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #102 on: July 05, 2018, 10:49:49 PM »
I wish we had this discussion in person.  In the meantime, my du'a is this: may Allah (swt) make Malik's abode your eternal abode and may Allah (swt) make Abu Bakr's (ra) and Khaled's (ra) abode as my eternal abode.

Abu Bakr bin Kuafah's decision and Khaled bin Waleed's actions can't be proven from the Qur'an therefore can't be justified. Just as simple as that. CASE CLOSED.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2018, 11:37:31 PM »
Sehih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 24.
The book of Zakah.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever is made wealthy by Allah and does not pay the Zakat of his wealth, then on the Day of Resurrection his wealth will be made like a bald-headed poisonous male snake with two black spots over the eyes. The snake will encircle his neck and bite his cheeks and say, 'I am your wealth, I am your treasure.'" (Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 24, No.486)

What was the need for Abu Hurayra to say the above.

"And does not pay the Zakat of his wealth, then on the Day of Resurrection"

Why leave it till the day of resurrection. I thought you said the one who doesn't pay Zakah then it's the rulers job to put someone in charge in each area and region to collect it or behead them.

Here Abu Hurayra is saying that the Prophet s.a.w is leaving it to the day of resurrection.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #104 on: July 06, 2018, 09:22:15 AM »
http://mahajjah.com/

Take a look at the above Ahle Sunnah ink. Below is information from that link concerning the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah, the Ahle Sunnah perspective.

The execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah
Shortly after the demise of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam a number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula turned away from Islam. With many of them apostasy was expressed in the form of a refusal to pay the zakat. From Madinah Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu dispatched a number of punitive expeditions. Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu was placed in command of one such expedition.

After his victory against some of the apostate tribes, Khalid set out for Banu Sulaym, another of the apostate tribes. On his way towards Banu Sulaym he passed through the lands of Banu Tamim. Malik ibn Nuwayrah was a member of this tribe, and he had been appointed zakat – collector of Banu Tamim by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam. Reports had been circulating that Malik too, was withholding the zakat.1 There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms.2

Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu had orders from Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu to inspect the practices of the people of the various locations he passed by in order to find out whether they were Muslims or whether they too, had forsaken Islam. If they heard the adhan and saw the people performing salah they could conclude that they were Muslims, and if they did not see them upholding the salah that would be an indication that they were not Muslim.3 In the case of Banu Tamim, Sayyidina Khalid’s spies differed: some claimed that they did not make salah, while others claimed that they did.4

According to one report, their mu’adhin, a person by the name of Abu al Jalal, was absent, which was the reason why no adhan was heard.5 It has even been reported that they encountered armed resistance from Malik and his men at an oasis called al Ba’udah.6 Those who put up the resistance, including Malik, were captured and brought before Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu. He decided that they must be put to death. This is how Malik ibn Nuwayrah was killed.

In Sayyidina Khalid’s party was the Sahabi Sayyidina Abu Qatadah radiya Llahu `anhu. He was amongst those who claimed that they had seen Malik’s people making salah. He was thus understandably upset at the decision of Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu, and returned immediately to Madinah to complain to Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu. Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu insisted that Khalid be removed from his position as commander on account of his impetuousness. Khalid was summoned back to Madinah and interrogated by the khalifah, who concluded that Khalid’s deed was an error of judgement, for which it was not necessary to dismiss him.7

Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was guided in this decision by two things. Firstly, the hadith of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam wherein he described Khalid as “the sword which Allah unsheathed against the unbelievers”.

The second was the fact that a similar occurrence took place in the time of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, also with Khalid ibn al Walid. He was put in command by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam of an expedition to Banu Jadhimah. When Khalid asked them to accept Islam they responded by saying: “saba’na, saba’na”, a word which literally means “We have become Sabeans”, but which had come to be used in the general sense of changing one’s religion. To Khalid this was not sufficient evidence of their acceptance of Islam, and he gave the order for their execution. When the news of their execution reached Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam he lifted his hands and said: “O Allah, I dissociate myself from what Khalid has done.”8 Although Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam dissociated himself from the haste Khalid made himself guilty of, he did not punish him, since it was an error in judgement on his part. A very regrettable error it was, but it was still an error. It was for this reason that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did not hesitate to give Khalid command over other expeditions as well.

Shortly after the Banu Jadhimah incident Rasulullah entrusted him with the mission to destroy the temple of the pagan goddess `Uzza at a place called Nakhlah.9 In Jumad al Ula in the year 10 A.H he was sent on a da`wah mission to Banu Harith ibn Ka`b, and they accepted Islam at his hands without a drop of blood being shed.10 It was also to Khalid that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam entrusted the expedition to Ukaydir ibn `Abd al Malik.11

Above all there was the day, at the battle of Mu’tah in the year 8 A.H, when Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu would prove his valour and military genius by saving the day for Islam and the Muslim ummah in its first ever encounter with the Roman Empire. The three generals appointed by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam all attained martyrdom in succession, and the standard was taken over by the valiant Khalid, who through his sheer genius managed to save the honour of Islam by effecting a tactical withdrawal after what seemed like certain defeat. Rasulullah was informed by Allah of what had happened at Mu’tah, and although his eyes were filled with tears at the martyrdom of his beloved cousin Jafar ibn Abi Talib, his adopted son Zaid ibn Harithah and the poet `Abdullah ibn Rawahah radiya Llahu `anhum, he saw reason to give the Muslims in Madinah the glad tidings of Khalid’s victory, saying: “then the standard was taken up by a Sword from amongst the Swords of Allah, and upon his hands did Allah grant victory.”12

All of this shows that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam saw the Banu Jadhimah incident, as regrettable as it was, as a mistake on the part of Khalid. In not punishing Khalid for the execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah, and not dismissing him from his post as commander, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was thus completely justified. His interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error of judgement, and the insistence of Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu that Khalid be dismissed was met by a resolute answer form Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu: “I will not sheath the sword that was drawn by Allah.”13 Like Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did in the case of Banu Jadhimah, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu paid out blood money to Malik’s brother Mutammim, and ordered the release of all captives taken by Khalid.13

Have a read of the above analysis.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 09:29:01 AM by iceman »

muslim720

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #105 on: July 06, 2018, 07:13:44 PM »
What was the need for Abu Hurayra to say the above.

....because the Prophet (saw) said it.

Quote
Why leave it till the day of resurrection.

Are you seriously retarded to the point that you cannot differentiate between punishments in this life and the Hereafter?

Quote
I thought you said the one who doesn't pay Zakah then it's the rulers job to put someone in charge in each area and region to collect it or behead them.

I did not say that; Imam Kulayni reported your Imams (ra) saying that the person who does not pay Zakat becomes an apostate and can be killed.

Quote
Here Abu Hurayra is saying that the Prophet s.a.w is leaving it to the day of resurrection.

Where in the narration does it say that the Prophet (saw) will leave it to the Day of Resurrection? 

On another note, you need to stop.  I am running out of patience with your red-herrings, misrepresentation of Prophetic hadiths and downright lies.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #106 on: July 06, 2018, 08:11:09 PM »
....because the Prophet (saw) said it.

Are you seriously retarded to the point that you cannot differentiate between punishments in this life and the Hereafter?

I did not say that; Imam Kulayni reported your Imams (ra) saying that the person who does not pay Zakat becomes an apostate and can be killed.

On another note, you need to stop.  I am running out of patience with your red-herrings, misrepresentation of Prophetic hadiths and downright lies.

What, did Abu Hurayra say that those who don't pay Zakah are apostates and should be beheaded because the Prophet s.a.w said so. No. Obviously there is no indication of this in the Qur'an otherwise you wouldn't be dancing around till now.

"I did not say that; Imam Kulayni reported your Imams (ra) saying that the person who does not pay Zakat becomes an apostate and can be killed."

Ok, then this is serious business. Can this be proven from the Qur'an. Surely there should be some indication of such an important matter in the Qur'an.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #107 on: July 06, 2018, 08:15:52 PM »
http://mahajjah.com/

Take a look at the above Ahle Sunnah ink. Below is information from that link concerning the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah, the Ahle Sunnah perspective.

The execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah
Shortly after the demise of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam a number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula turned away from Islam. With many of them apostasy was expressed in the form of a refusal to pay the zakat. From Madinah Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu dispatched a number of punitive expeditions. Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu was placed in command of one such expedition.

After his victory against some of the apostate tribes, Khalid set out for Banu Sulaym, another of the apostate tribes. On his way towards Banu Sulaym he passed through the lands of Banu Tamim. Malik ibn Nuwayrah was a member of this tribe, and he had been appointed zakat – collector of Banu Tamim by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam. Reports had been circulating that Malik too, was withholding the zakat.1 There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms.2

Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu had orders from Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu to inspect the practices of the people of the various locations he passed by in order to find out whether they were Muslims or whether they too, had forsaken Islam. If they heard the adhan and saw the people performing salah they could conclude that they were Muslims, and if they did not see them upholding the salah that would be an indication that they were not Muslim.3 In the case of Banu Tamim, Sayyidina Khalid’s spies differed: some claimed that they did not make salah, while others claimed that they did.4

According to one report, their mu’adhin, a person by the name of Abu al Jalal, was absent, which was the reason why no adhan was heard.5 It has even been reported that they encountered armed resistance from Malik and his men at an oasis called al Ba’udah.6 Those who put up the resistance, including Malik, were captured and brought before Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu. He decided that they must be put to death. This is how Malik ibn Nuwayrah was killed.

In Sayyidina Khalid’s party was the Sahabi Sayyidina Abu Qatadah radiya Llahu `anhu. He was amongst those who claimed that they had seen Malik’s people making salah. He was thus understandably upset at the decision of Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu, and returned immediately to Madinah to complain to Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu. Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu insisted that Khalid be removed from his position as commander on account of his impetuousness. Khalid was summoned back to Madinah and interrogated by the khalifah, who concluded that Khalid’s deed was an error of judgement, for which it was not necessary to dismiss him.7

Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was guided in this decision by two things. Firstly, the hadith of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam wherein he described Khalid as “the sword which Allah unsheathed against the unbelievers”.

The second was the fact that a similar occurrence took place in the time of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, also with Khalid ibn al Walid. He was put in command by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam of an expedition to Banu Jadhimah. When Khalid asked them to accept Islam they responded by saying: “saba’na, saba’na”, a word which literally means “We have become Sabeans”, but which had come to be used in the general sense of changing one’s religion. To Khalid this was not sufficient evidence of their acceptance of Islam, and he gave the order for their execution. When the news of their execution reached Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam he lifted his hands and said: “O Allah, I dissociate myself from what Khalid has done.”8 Although Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam dissociated himself from the haste Khalid made himself guilty of, he did not punish him, since it was an error in judgement on his part. A very regrettable error it was, but it was still an error. It was for this reason that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did not hesitate to give Khalid command over other expeditions as well.

Shortly after the Banu Jadhimah incident Rasulullah entrusted him with the mission to destroy the temple of the pagan goddess `Uzza at a place called Nakhlah.9 In Jumad al Ula in the year 10 A.H he was sent on a da`wah mission to Banu Harith ibn Ka`b, and they accepted Islam at his hands without a drop of blood being shed.10 It was also to Khalid that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam entrusted the expedition to Ukaydir ibn `Abd al Malik.11

Above all there was the day, at the battle of Mu’tah in the year 8 A.H, when Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu would prove his valour and military genius by saving the day for Islam and the Muslim ummah in its first ever encounter with the Roman Empire. The three generals appointed by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam all attained martyrdom in succession, and the standard was taken over by the valiant Khalid, who through his sheer genius managed to save the honour of Islam by effecting a tactical withdrawal after what seemed like certain defeat. Rasulullah was informed by Allah of what had happened at Mu’tah, and although his eyes were filled with tears at the martyrdom of his beloved cousin Jafar ibn Abi Talib, his adopted son Zaid ibn Harithah and the poet `Abdullah ibn Rawahah radiya Llahu `anhum, he saw reason to give the Muslims in Madinah the glad tidings of Khalid’s victory, saying: “then the standard was taken up by a Sword from amongst the Swords of Allah, and upon his hands did Allah grant victory.”12

All of this shows that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam saw the Banu Jadhimah incident, as regrettable as it was, as a mistake on the part of Khalid. In not punishing Khalid for the execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah, and not dismissing him from his post as commander, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was thus completely justified. His interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error of judgement, and the insistence of Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu that Khalid be dismissed was met by a resolute answer form Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu: “I will not sheath the sword that was drawn by Allah.”13 Like Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did in the case of Banu Jadhimah, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu paid out blood money to Malik’s brother Mutammim, and ordered the release of all captives taken by Khalid.13

Have a read of the above analysis.

Gentlemen any comment on the above analysis. It's from an Ahle Sunah site so you don't have to be afraid. Was the killing of Malik a grave error or was he an apostate and worthy of being killed.

muslim720

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2018, 07:17:35 AM »
Above all there was the day, at the battle of Mu’tah in the year 8 A.H, when Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu would prove his valour and military genius by saving the day for Islam and the Muslim ummah in its first ever encounter with the Roman Empire.

While we still wait for this Conman to produce anything from our classical scholars which says that Imam Hussain (ra) "saved" Islam, at least we can agree that Khalid ibn Walid (ra) saved the day for Islam.  And Conman endorses the article, therefore, he must also endorse this notion. 
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

muslim720

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2018, 07:19:58 AM »
Ok, then this is serious business. Can this be proven from the Qur'an. Surely there should be some indication of such an important matter in the Qur'an.

Imam Kulayni reports it from your Imams (ra) in Al-Kafi.  Are you accusing your own Imams (ra) of lying?  Hahaha!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2018, 09:56:03 AM »
http://mahajjah.com/

Take a look at the above Ahle Sunnah ink. Below is information from that link concerning the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah, the Ahle Sunnah perspective.

The execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah
Shortly after the demise of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam a number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula turned away from Islam. With many of them apostasy was expressed in the form of a refusal to pay the zakat. From Madinah Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu dispatched a number of punitive expeditions. Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu was placed in command of one such expedition.

After his victory against some of the apostate tribes, Khalid set out for Banu Sulaym, another of the apostate tribes. On his way towards Banu Sulaym he passed through the lands of Banu Tamim. Malik ibn Nuwayrah was a member of this tribe, and he had been appointed zakat – collector of Banu Tamim by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam. Reports had been circulating that Malik too, was withholding the zakat.1 There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms.2

Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu had orders from Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu to inspect the practices of the people of the various locations he passed by in order to find out whether they were Muslims or whether they too, had forsaken Islam. If they heard the adhan and saw the people performing salah they could conclude that they were Muslims, and if they did not see them upholding the salah that would be an indication that they were not Muslim.3 In the case of Banu Tamim, Sayyidina Khalid’s spies differed: some claimed that they did not make salah, while others claimed that they did.4

According to one report, their mu’adhin, a person by the name of Abu al Jalal, was absent, which was the reason why no adhan was heard.5 It has even been reported that they encountered armed resistance from Malik and his men at an oasis called al Ba’udah.6 Those who put up the resistance, including Malik, were captured and brought before Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu. He decided that they must be put to death. This is how Malik ibn Nuwayrah was killed.

In Sayyidina Khalid’s party was the Sahabi Sayyidina Abu Qatadah radiya Llahu `anhu. He was amongst those who claimed that they had seen Malik’s people making salah. He was thus understandably upset at the decision of Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu, and returned immediately to Madinah to complain to Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu. Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu insisted that Khalid be removed from his position as commander on account of his impetuousness. Khalid was summoned back to Madinah and interrogated by the khalifah, who concluded that Khalid’s deed was an error of judgement, for which it was not necessary to dismiss him.7

Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was guided in this decision by two things. Firstly, the hadith of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam wherein he described Khalid as “the sword which Allah unsheathed against the unbelievers”.

The second was the fact that a similar occurrence took place in the time of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, also with Khalid ibn al Walid. He was put in command by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam of an expedition to Banu Jadhimah. When Khalid asked them to accept Islam they responded by saying: “saba’na, saba’na”, a word which literally means “We have become Sabeans”, but which had come to be used in the general sense of changing one’s religion. To Khalid this was not sufficient evidence of their acceptance of Islam, and he gave the order for their execution. When the news of their execution reached Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam he lifted his hands and said: “O Allah, I dissociate myself from what Khalid has done.”8 Although Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam dissociated himself from the haste Khalid made himself guilty of, he did not punish him, since it was an error in judgement on his part. A very regrettable error it was, but it was still an error. It was for this reason that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did not hesitate to give Khalid command over other expeditions as well.

Shortly after the Banu Jadhimah incident Rasulullah entrusted him with the mission to destroy the temple of the pagan goddess `Uzza at a place called Nakhlah.9 In Jumad al Ula in the year 10 A.H he was sent on a da`wah mission to Banu Harith ibn Ka`b, and they accepted Islam at his hands without a drop of blood being shed.10 It was also to Khalid that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam entrusted the expedition to Ukaydir ibn `Abd al Malik.11

Above all there was the day, at the battle of Mu’tah in the year 8 A.H, when Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu would prove his valour and military genius by saving the day for Islam and the Muslim ummah in its first ever encounter with the Roman Empire. The three generals appointed by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam all attained martyrdom in succession, and the standard was taken over by the valiant Khalid, who through his sheer genius managed to save the honour of Islam by effecting a tactical withdrawal after what seemed like certain defeat. Rasulullah was informed by Allah of what had happened at Mu’tah, and although his eyes were filled with tears at the martyrdom of his beloved cousin Jafar ibn Abi Talib, his adopted son Zaid ibn Harithah and the poet `Abdullah ibn Rawahah radiya Llahu `anhum, he saw reason to give the Muslims in Madinah the glad tidings of Khalid’s victory, saying: “then the standard was taken up by a Sword from amongst the Swords of Allah, and upon his hands did Allah grant victory.”12

All of this shows that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam saw the Banu Jadhimah incident, as regrettable as it was, as a mistake on the part of Khalid. In not punishing Khalid for the execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah, and not dismissing him from his post as commander, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was thus completely justified. His interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error of judgement, and the insistence of Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu that Khalid be dismissed was met by a resolute answer form Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu: “I will not sheath the sword that was drawn by Allah.”13 Like Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did in the case of Banu Jadhimah, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu paid out blood money to Malik’s brother Mutammim, and ordered the release of all captives taken by Khalid.13

Have a read of the above analysis.

Ok, the above is an analysis based on Ahle Sunnah view regarding the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah. Lets examine this analysis.

"a number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula turned away from Islam. With many of them apostasy was expressed in the form of a refusal to pay the zakat"

Note the above that 'apostasy was expressed" exactly how? "In the form of refusal to pay Zakah" The issue is 'refusal to pay Zakah' and nothing else. Point to be noted that everything else is fine, the belief in Tauheed, Nabuwath, Qeyamah, Fasting, Praying etc but they became apostate because of Zakah?

I mean they worshipped idols when Muhammad s.a.w declared his Messenger status. So they didn't turn back to their old ways because that would have made more sense and would have fitted in, but they are accused of apostasy because of Zakah and nothing else? Strange! When you want to accuse someone at least come up with a good story or get your story right.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2018, 11:19:06 AM »
". Malik ibn Nuwayrah was a member of this tribe, and he had been appointed zakat – collector of Banu Tamim by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam"

So basically Malik was a Zakah collector. So the Prophet s.a.w did have a system in place during his reign and time regarding the collection of Zakah money and what to do with it.

When Abu Bakr got in to authority and gained power he wanted to implement his own way and method of the collection of Zakah money and what to do with it.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2018, 11:59:30 AM »
"There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms"

So basically such a harsh and hard stance was taken against Malik and his tribe on reports based on gossip and rumour. Nobody decided to look into it and find out whether they were true or not.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2018, 12:27:35 PM »
There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms"

So basically such a harsh and hard stance was taken against Malik and his tribe on reports based on gossip and rumour. Nobody decided to look into it and find out whether they were true or not.

"Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu had orders from Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu to inspect the practices of the people of the various locations he passed by in order to find out whether they were Muslims or whether they too, had forsaken Islam. If they heard the adhan and saw the people performing salah they could conclude that they were Muslims, and if they did not see them upholding the salah that would be an indication that they were not Muslim"

Ok so if the indication was that theyou were not Muslims then what? You massacre the whole tribe? This is exactly what the Romans did to put fear in people. The massacred whole villages and towns if anyone differed or disagreed with them. So were the Muslim rulers turning muslim rule into an empire?

"In the case of Banu Tamim, Sayyidina Khalid’s spies differed: some claimed that they did not make salah, while others claimed that they did"

How on earth did such a huge difference in reports emerge? A minor difference is understandable but such a huge difference in reports. And despite this Khalid went ahead with the offensive.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2018, 12:56:49 PM »
Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was thus completely justified. His interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error of judgement"

Abu Bakr's interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error. What killing people without proper investigation is called an error.So was this an grave error/mistake or did Malik really become an apostate What's the truth. What are we afraid of or what are we hiding.

"Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu paid out blood money to Malik’s brother Mutammim, and ordered the release of all captives taken by Khalid"

Why pay out blood money. Such money is only paid out if you kill someone or someone gets killed accidently or unlawfully and unjustly.

So we have a mixture of things here. The case has been made confusing but to hide what or to protect whom.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 01:01:11 PM by iceman »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2018, 05:10:41 PM »
Iceman
Prove the above from the Quran.
Where in the Quran does it mention any of the above you are quoting?
I want proof from the Quran that Khalid ibn whalid (may Allah be pleased with him) killed anyone.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #116 on: July 08, 2018, 12:45:12 PM »
We have the following ruling out of many from the Qur'an;

Surah An Noor, verse 2.

"The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment."

but absolutely nothing regarding a more serious punishment (capital punishment) regarding a more serious crime of not paying/giving Zakah?

Inshallah we will discuss and expose more flaws and dents in these gents belief and faith.


zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #118 on: July 08, 2018, 01:48:47 PM »
We have the following ruling out of many from the Qur'an;

Surah An Noor, verse 2.

"The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment."

but absolutely nothing regarding a more serious punishment (capital punishment) regarding a more serious crime of not paying/giving Zakah?

Inshallah we will discuss and expose more flaws and dents in these gents belief and faith.

Where does it mention Abu Bakr or Khalid ibn Whalid (may Allah be pleased with them both)?

I want proof from the Quran condemning both of these sahaba for the actions they did.
Which verse says khalid killed malik?

Where is your proof from the Quran that khalid even touched malik?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 01:49:53 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #119 on: July 08, 2018, 07:11:14 PM »
Take a look at the following which is a piece of the opening post of this thread by the one who started the thread,

'Having established the background, let us now introduce the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.  Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat, Malik sought to do away with Zakat through his logic and actions.  In other words, Malik adopted a different view or belief towards Zakat and urged others to do the same (which was to stop paying the Zakat).  So why is it that Shias (rightfully) condemn Yazeed for violating the Shariah but type "radhiAllahu anhu" after they make mention of Malik bin Nuwayrah, a man whose intent to change the Shariah has been well-established?'

Notice this bit;

'Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat"

How did Malik violate And where does it say that you are deemed Wajib Ul Qatal. If you violate the Islamic injunction of Zakah then you are a definite subject to capital punishment.

And the gents can't come up with one single indication from the Qur'an to back this up.

Even the armed convoy that was sent under the command of Khalid bin Waleed greatly differed on the religious status of Malik and his tribe. Some witnessed that they were Muslims and complained to the Caliph of Malik’s actions.

Was Malik summoned by the Caliph and after interrogation was a decision reached by the Caliph that Khalid made a serious error by killing Muslims unlawfully.

Did the Caliph pay Qisas to Malik's brother Mutammim. First of all you need to get your story right.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 07:25:48 PM by iceman »

 

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