Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?

[iceman]

Your allegations have no basis from the Quran. You admitted they are not in the Quran.
So how can you demand us to answer these non Quranic allegations with proofs from the Quran only?
How more absurd can your stupidity get?😂😂😂😂😂
You shot yourself in the foot. Go ahead please put yourself out of misery😂😂😂😂

The decision Abu Bakr made and how Khalid acted was this due to governance or Shariah law?

And did Abu Bakr decide that Khalid made a grave error in killing Malik and did he pay blood money to Mutammim?

Stick to something rather than dancing to every tune. What was it.

[iceman]

https://youtu.be/jzdaVL8u4Jc

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

Again stop putting words in my mouth and accusing me of nonsense based on your assumption. RULER, be it any and nothing to do with favouritism or admire which is in your world, there decision of capital punishment was it based on governance on Shariah law? Come on, time to own up.

So you mean both Ali and Abu Bakr were wrong.?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

The decision Abu Bakr made and how Khalid acted was this due to governance or Shariah law?

And did Abu Bakr decide that Khalid made a grave error in killing Malik and did he pay blood money to Mutammim?

Stick to something rather than dancing to every tune. What was it.

You are all over the place.

You have brought up a greivance against Abu Bakr & Khalid (may Allah be pleased with them both), a greivance which you did not pick out from the Quran. The story is not in the Quran. But the issue is that you want us to prove they were right from the Quran only.
Be consistent.
I can reject this case as it was never in the Quran in the first place so I can say I do not see it as an important matter.
See this is what happens when you decide to be a Quranist only when it suits you.
Your case & greivance is rejected. There is no case to answer.

We are not Quranists only but I am simply shutting your own file with your own gloves.

[iceman]

You are all over the place.

You have brought up a greivance against Abu Bakr & Khalid (may Allah be pleased with them both), a greivance which you did not pick out from the Quran. The story is not in the Quran. But the issue is that you want us to prove they were right from the Quran only.
Be consistent.
I can reject this case as it was never in the Quran in the first place so I can say I do not see it as an important matter.
See this is what happens when you decide to be a Quranist only when it suits you.
Your case & greivance is rejected. There is no case to answer.

We are not Quranists only but I am simply shutting your own file with your own gloves.

So why don't you put me in one place then. What's keeping you. Here is another chance at it. Please do build up the courage this time.

Malik bin Nuwayrah along with members of his tribe were killed. This is a historical fact and has to do with history books. A fact known and accepted by all.  Who killed him? Khalid bin Waleed and the armed convoy under his command. Who sent him? The first Caliph of the Muslims, Abu Bakr bin Kuafah. What was Khalid and his convoys mission? To deal with those tribes who refused to pay or give Zakah. This is to do with Muslim history in early Islam and has to do with history books and not the Qur'an, based on the demand which you so childishly put forward.

I'll continue this.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

So why don't you put me in one place then. What's keeping you. Here is another chance at it. Please do build up the courage this time.

Malik bin Nuwayrah along with members of his tribe were killed. This is a historical fact and has to do with history books. A fact known and accepted by all.  Who killed him? Khalid bin Waleed and the armed convoy under his command. Who sent him? The first Caliph of the Muslims, Abu Bakr bin Kuafah. What was Khalid and his convoys mission? To deal with those tribes who refused to pay or give Zakah. This is to do with Muslim history in early Islam and has to do with history books and not the Qur'an, based on the demand which you so childishly put forward.

I'll continue this.

Ah and there you go.
You finally took the plunge that I baited you.
See iceman you played yourself.
You are now relying on history books as evidence.Well we already proved that authentic shia history says Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) also had his reps ENFORCE the collection of zakat.

So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).

[iceman]

Ah and there you go.
You finally took the plunge that I baited you.
See iceman you played yourself.
You are now relying on history books as evidence.Well we already proved that authentic shia history says Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) also had his reps ENFORCE the collection of zakat.

So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).

Wait for it, wait for it, steady on. The killing of Malik, whether he was killed or not, depends on history but why was he killed and what was the reason behind it is a different story altogether.

Now why was Malik killed? Because he refused to pay or give Zakah. Well that's the accusation on him. There are two things here,

1, Can the ruler/govner/Caliph of the time force people to give or pay Zakah? Is Zakah something you give or take? Is Zakah obligatory and must be taken or obligatory and must be given.

2, If you refuse to give or pay Zakah then are you subject to capital punishment? If yes then is this based on governance or Shariah law?

In the case of Malik you believe that he was killed based on refusing to give or pay Zakah. This means he was Wajib Ul Qatal in other words subject to capital punishment.

My question is the decision of capital punishment, the right to take Malik's life on the crime of refusing to pay Zakah. Was this crime against the government, the state? Or was it an offence against Shariah law.

If it was a crime an offence against the state then that is fine and Qur'an has nothing to do with it. But if it's a crime an offence against Shariah law and this is subject to capital punishment then it's got everything to do with the Qur'an.   

What seems to be bugging you?

[iceman]

Ah and there you go.
You finally took the plunge that I baited you.
See iceman you played yourself.
You are now relying on history books as evidence.Well we already proved that authentic shia history says Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) also had his reps ENFORCE the collection of zakat.

So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).

"So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him)"

Excuse me, are you saying Ali killed someone or some people or ordered their execution because they refused to pay or give Zakah?

Getting someone to collect zakah is not the issue. The issue is executing someone or ordering their execution because they refused to hand over the Zakah money or they refuse to pay or give Zakah and calling the execution a religious ruling. This needs to but in fact has to be from the Qur'an.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

"So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him)"

Excuse me, are you saying Ali killed someone or some people or ordered their execution because they refused to pay or give Zakah?

Getting someone to collect zakah is not the issue. The issue is executing someone or ordering their execution because they refused to hand over the Zakah money or they refuse to pay or give Zakah and calling the execution a religious ruling. This needs to but in fact has to be from the Qur'an.

The issue was you saying no one can force anyone to pay zakat.
You tried to go Quranist on this point but then when I turned the tables on you, then you decided we need to accept the history books.
So history testifies both the 1st & 4th caliph had reps ENFORCE the collection.
Also the Imams historically narrated death for the person who refuses to pay zakat. This was historically authenticated by your main scholars.

Not that difficult is it?

[iceman]

The issue was you saying no one can force anyone to pay zakat.
You tried to go Quranist on this point but then when I turned the tables on you, then you decided we need to accept the history books.
So history testifies both the 1st & 4th caliph had reps ENFORCE the collection.
Also the Imams historically narrated death for the person who refuses to pay zakat. This was historically authenticated by your main scholars.

Not that difficult is it?

Ok, I've given you gents chance after chance after chance and you're still running. It ain't difficult for me since I'm giving it to you. You're the ones having problems receiving and addressing it.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Ok, I've given you gents chance after chance after chance and you're still running. It ain't difficult for me since I'm giving it to you. You're the ones having problems receiving and addressing it.

Both sunni & shia believe in the sources of Islamic law being Quran & Sunnah.
We proved from your ‘sunnah’.
You decided to turn Quranist but then backfired badly on you.
Whichever methodolog you try to use, you are exposed.

ICEMAN MELTED.

Just a tiny puddle now.

[iceman]

Both sunni & shia believe in the sources of Islamic law being Quran & Sunnah.
We proved from your ‘sunnah’.
You decided to turn Quranist but then backfired badly on you.
Whichever methodolog you try to use, you are exposed.

ICEMAN MELTED.

Just a tiny puddle now.

You can't even make up your mind whether Malik was killed lawfully or unlawfully. Was Malik killed according to Shariah law or did Khalid kill him through error and Abu Bakr gave blood money (Qisas/compensation) to Malik's brother Mutammim. So what possibly can you know and say about Shariah law.

I know this is difficult and complicated for you since such discussion is well above your intellectual level. Don't take it too personally since that's how it's coming out as. Let me make it simple for you.

"Both sunni & shia believe in the sources of Islamic law being Quran & Sunnah"

Ok lets have it your way. Prove to me through Qur'an and Sunnah that Zakah collectors have the right to force people to give Zakah and they have the right to take Zakah by force. Otherwise those who refuse to give Zakah or hand over Zakah are subject to execution by Shariah law.

Is this simple enough for you. You can run as far and as much as you want. But you can't escape or hide. 😊 Now lets see if you come up with an academic and intellectual response this time or give the same childish response as usual.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

You can't even make up your mind whether Malik was killed lawfully or unlawfully. Was Malik killed according to Shariah law or did Khalid kill him through error and Abu Bakr gave blood money (Qisas/compensation) to Malik's brother Mutammim. So what possibly can you know and say about Shariah law.

I know this is difficult and complicated for you since such discussion is well above your intellectual level. Don't take it too personally since that's how it's coming out as. Let me make it simple for you.

"Both sunni & shia believe in the sources of Islamic law being Quran & Sunnah"

Ok lets have it your way. Prove to me through Qur'an and Sunnah that Zakah collectors have the right to force people to give Zakah and they have the right to take Zakah by force. Otherwise those who refuse to give Zakah or hand over Zakah are subject to execution by Shariah law.

Is this simple enough for you. You can run as far and as much as you want. But you can't escape or hide. 😊 Now lets see if you come up with an academic and intellectual response this time or give the same childish response as usual.

You must have memory loss

Myself & other brothers have already demonstrated Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) ENFORCED zakat collection & the Imam said death for one who refuses to pay zakat.

This game of you getting KO’d again & again is fun!

[iceman]

You must have memory loss

Myself & other brothers have already demonstrated Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) ENFORCED zakat collection & the Imam said death for one who refuses to pay zakat.

This game of you getting KO’d again & again is fun!

My memory is far sharper than you can ever think of. I can and have put things forward from history books regarding various issues and matters and so have others but your kind have always seen it with suspicion and questioned its authenticity.

But you want me to automatically accept what ever you put forward. Can you confirm the matter from the Qur'an? Allow me to answer it for you now, No you absolutely can't.

[muslim720]

In an event that would rival the FIFA World Cup, Summer Olympics and Winter Olympics, we have seen unparalleled display of verbal gymnastics, changing goal posts, dancing around the point, etc.  Clearly the gold medal in each category goes to Iceman.  In fact, the silver and bronze should also be handed to him since there are no other participants behind him (in those categories) anywhere in sight.

Having said that, we have seen the Qur'an mandate Zakat.  It was childish of Iceman to hold on to the term "give" and not "pay" because he forgets that Qur'an is in Arabic, not English.  And then I showed him that the word "pay" is also used in conjunction to Zakat in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an stipulates a portion of the Zakat to the one who collects it, therefore, collection of Zakat necessitates an authoritative body to undertake the task.  Being the dimwit he is, since I met his challenge using the same article he copy-posted blindly (without realizing that his challenge of a Qur'anic verse is right there in the article), I thought he would have some decency to acknowledge it.  He barreled down his path of blind refusal of facts.

Allegedly "infallible", I showed him the words of his own Imams (ra) saying that refusal to pay Zakat is tantamount to kufr, punishable by death.  In fact, the Imam (ra) said that nothing is as highly stressed as Zakat.  Again, Iceman kept ignoring the facts and modified his challenge to save some face. 

I have no regrets except I deeply regret saying things about his mother.  It took me less than an hour to feel terrible for what I had typed; the khutbah (that very day) had to do with akhlaq.  If Iceman forgives me, I will try to stay out of his way so long as he stays out of mine.

[Mythbuster1]

In an event that would rival the FIFA World Cup, Summer Olympics and Winter Olympics, we have seen unparalleled display of verbal gymnastics, changing goal posts, dancing around the point, etc.  Clearly the gold medal in each category goes to Iceman.  In fact, the silver and bronze should also be handed to him since there are no other participants behind him (in those categories) anywhere in sight.

Having said that, we have seen the Qur'an mandate Zakat.  It was childish of Iceman to hold on to the term "give" and not "pay" because he forgets that Qur'an is in Arabic, not English.  And then I showed him that the word "pay" is also used in conjunction to Zakat in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an stipulates a portion of the Zakat to the one who collects it, therefore, collection of Zakat necessitates an authoritative body to undertake the task.  Being the dimwit he is, since I met his challenge using the same article he copy-posted blindly (without realizing that his challenge of a Qur'anic verse is right there in the article), I thought he would have some decency to acknowledge it.  He barreled down his path of blind refusal of facts.

Allegedly "infallible", I showed him the words of his own Imams (ra) saying that refusal to pay Zakat is tantamount to kufr, punishable by death.  In fact, the Imam (ra) said that nothing is as highly stressed as Zakat.  Again, Iceman kept ignoring the facts and modified his challenge to save some face. 

I have no regrets except I deeply regret saying things about his mother.  It took me less than an hour to feel terrible for what I had typed; the khutbah (that very day) had to do with akhlaq.  If Iceman forgives me, I will try to stay out of his way so long as he stays out of mine.

The guy ameen aka icepop man is a great gymnast he has been doing that with verses of the Quran which he THINKS relate to some kinda divinity imarmite concept.........his 2 brain cells don’t seem to discharge any kind of intelligence.

[iceman]

To the viewers, as you can clearly see people still no answer what so ever. Just humiliating and insulting comments pouring in as usual. Nothing out of the ordinary.

The first Caliph (Abu Bakr bin Kuafah) sends an armed convoy under the command of Khalid bin Waleed to deal with a situation just as the sixth Caliph (Yazeed bin Muawiyah) also sent an armed convoy under the command of Ubaidullah bin Ziyaad to deal with the situation. Note the similarities that one refused to hand over the Zakah money and the other refused to swear allegiance.

Now note the perspective that they hold here, the situation between Malik bin Nuwayrah and Khalid bin Waleed is given the touch of religion that the issue had to do with Islam where as the situation between Hussain bin Ali and Ubaidallah bin Ziyaad is given the touch of politics and it had nothing to do with Islam.

Look at the double standards they hold and the twist in both situations.

[Mythbuster1]

To the viewers, as you can clearly see people still no answer what so ever. Just humiliating and insulting comments pouring in as usual. Nothing out of the ordinary.

The first Caliph (Abu Bakr bin Kuafah) sends an armed convoy under the command of Khalid bin Waleed to deal with a situation just as the sixth Caliph (Yazeed bin Muawiyah) also sent an armed convoy under the command of Ubaidullah bin Ziyaad to deal with the situation. Note the similarities that one refused to hand over the Zakah money and the other refused to swear allegiance.

Now note the perspective that they hold here, the situation between Malik bin Nuwayrah and Khalid bin Waleed is given the touch of religion that the issue had to do with Islam where as the situation between Hussain bin Ali and Ubaidallah bin Ziyaad is given the touch of politics and it had nothing to do with Islam.

Look at the double standards they hold and the twist in both situations.

Lol you got dealt with get over it..........Hussein ra fought to not swear allegiance to yazeed?
Lol well why did Hussein ra ask for 3 things if granted He will walk away?
Posting vids doesn’t help, try THINKING a bit harder cos this one thing has turned your conspiracy theory of saving Islam upside down.

Oh my iceman is stuck between a rock and a hard place😂

Trying his best to link 2 seperated issues as 1 lol

No wonder you are a laughing stock in here and has been as ameen previously, you have no solid arguments or proofs just empty words......or some vids you picked up cos of the word SAVE 😂😂😂😂😂👍👍

[iceman]

Lol you got dealt with get over it..........Hussein ra fought to not swear allegiance to yazeed?
Lol well why did Hussein ra ask for 3 things if granted He will walk away?
Posting vids doesn’t help, try THINKING a bit harder cos this one thing has turned your conspiracy theory of saving Islam upside down.

Oh my iceman is stuck between a rock and a hard place😂

Trying his best to link 2 seperated issues as 1 lol

No wonder you are a laughing stock in here and has been as ameen previously, you have no solid arguments or proofs just empty words......or some vids you picked up cos of the word SAVE 😂😂😂😂😂👍👍

😊 Let the viewers be the judge of that. How intellectual and academic you guys are can clearly be seen through your childish posts.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Everyone has made their mind up.
I don’t think even a shia would want you to carry on.
You’re just embarrassing your sect.
Why is it the numbskulls from shia come here? Surely this is at least one shia who can discuss in an academic serious manner?
Or maybe those shia who actually have a brain cell realise they have no chance here as they know they will get refuted.