Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?

[iceman]

Everyone has made their mind up.
I don’t think even a shia would want you to carry on.
You’re just embarrassing your sect.
Why is it the numbskulls from shia come here? Surely this is at least one shia who can discuss in an academic serious manner?
Or maybe those shia who actually have a brain cell realise they have no chance here as they know they will get refuted.

"Everyone has made their mind up"

Yeh sure. This tells that you're all of the same nature and stance. Some come out with a bit more filth, rudeness and absurd behaviour than the others. That's the only difference.

You're not in it to discuss and debate but just to cause chaos, confusion and fitna between the Muslims by increasing sectarian rife. How intellectual and academic you are can be very clearly seen through your childish and immature posts.

Honestly a bunch of kids can behave and respond better than this in this day and age. Do yourselves a favour and honestly and truly take a damn good look at yourselves.

It doesn't matter what you say or think of me and how you behave towards me and my faith, one thing is clear that my manners and nature are very different then yours.

You're definitely dealing with a Shia (me) but I'm not dealing with Sunnis here, oh no. I come from a mixed community and relations of both Shias and Sunnis. So I know the manners and nature of true Sunnis.

You're just a bunch of idiots using the Ahle Sunah platform to cause division and hated amongst Muslims. You dig, throw dirt and then speak ill about the Shias so they in return will attack the Ahle Sunah which you're actually using and hiding behind.
 
That's the truth. Now you can altogether make up what ever bloody mind you want.

[iceman]

Qisas is an  arabic term it means “Legal Retaliation," and follows the principle of an eye for an eye. This is the second type of punishment in Islamic Law.  This is where the perpetrator of the crime is punished with the same injury that he caused to the victim.  If the criminal killed the victim, then he is killed.  If he cut off or injured a limb of the victim, then his own limb will be cut off or injured if it is possible without killing the criminal.

Allah Almighty says:

“O you who believe, retribution is prescribed for you in the case of murder...”

But nothing in the Qur'an at all about the death penalty for refusing to pay Zakah. Also nothing in the Qur'an the Caliphs/rulers have the right to impose Zakah collectors and give them the ultimate right to force people to pay Zakah or behead them 😊

[Hani]

Qisas is an  arabic term it means “Legal Retaliation," and follows the principle of an eye for an eye. This is the second type of punishment in Islamic Law.  This is where the perpetrator of the crime is punished with the same injury that he caused to the victim.  If the criminal killed the victim, then he is killed.  If he cut off or injured a limb of the victim, then his own limb will be cut off or injured if it is possible without killing the criminal.

Allah Almighty says:

“O you who believe, retribution is prescribed for you in the case of murder...”

But nothing in the Qur'an at all about the death penalty for refusing to pay Zakah. Also nothing in the Qur'an the Caliphs/rulers have the right to impose Zakah collectors and give them the ultimate right to force people to pay Zakah or behead them 😊

Breaking the law and resisting arrest can be dealt with by force. This is the law even here in the US and other first world countries. This was the law in Abu Bakr's government and as leader he has the full authority to enforce laws by force. Qur'an says to obey those in authority.

[iceman]

Breaking the law and resisting arrest can be dealt with by force. This is the law even here in the US and other first world countries. This was the law in Abu Bakr's government and as leader he has the full authority to enforce laws by force. Qur'an says to obey those in authority.

At last, finally a mature response without sarcasm, insult and being funny and playful. At least we're getting somewhere.

"Breaking the law and resisting arrest can be dealt with by force"

Ok, which law and whos law? The decision Abu Bakr made and the action that Khalid carried out was that based on Shariah law or law of the government?

"This was the law in Abu Bakr's government and as leader he has the full authority to enforce laws by force. Qur'an says to obey those in authority"

Ok then what about the 6th Caliph of the Muslims, Yazeed Ibne Muawiyah and his governor Ubaidullah Ibne Ziyaad? Where does their governmental law and rights go as a Caliph and his acting governor and commander according to your philosophy?

The majority of tabe'een and Sahaba, scholars and noble people accepted and gave allegiance to Yazeed, was his use of force against those who resisted justified and lawful?

You said about Abu Bakr,
"and as leader he has the full authority to enforce laws by force"
What about Yazeed? Does the same apply to him? If not then why?

You said, "Qur'an says to obey those in authority" this is exactly what the armed convoy under the command of Ubaidullah Ibne Ziyaad did and believed in.

I would definitely like an intellectual and constructive response. Lets see if I get one this time.

[Abu Muhammad]

Qisas is an  arabic term it means “Legal Retaliation," and follows the principle of an eye for an eye. This is the second type of punishment in Islamic Law.  This is where the perpetrator of the crime is punished with the same injury that he caused to the victim.  If the criminal killed the victim, then he is killed.  If he cut off or injured a limb of the victim, then his own limb will be cut off or injured if it is possible without killing the criminal.

Allah Almighty says:

“O you who believe, retribution is prescribed for you in the case of murder...”

But nothing in the Qur'an at all about the death penalty for refusing to pay Zakah. Also nothing in the Qur'an the Caliphs/rulers have the right to impose Zakah collectors and give them the ultimate right to force people to pay Zakah or behead them 😊

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran

"Capital punishment is a legal penalty in Iran.[1] Crimes punishable by death include murder; rape; child molestation; sodomy; drug trafficking; armed robbery; kidnapping; terrorism; burglary; pedophilia; homosexuality; incestuous relations; fornication; prohibited sexual relations; sexual misconduct; prostitution[2][3]; plotting to overthrow the Islamic regime; political dissidence; sabotage; arson; rebellion; apostasy; adultery; blasphemy; extortion; counterfeiting; smuggling; speculating; disrupting production; recidivist consumption of alcohol; producing or preparing food, drink, cosmetics or sanitary items that lead to death when consumed or used; producing and publishing pornography; using pornographic materials to solicit sex; recidivist false accusation of capital sexual offenses causing execution of an innocent person; recidivist theft; certain military offenses (e.g. cowardice, assisting the enemy); "enmity against God"; "corruption on earth"; espionage and treason.[4][5] Iran carried out at least 977 executions in 2015, at least 567 executions in 2016,[6] and at least 507 executions in 2017.[7]"

Hmm... many of those cannot be found in the Quran too...

[iceman]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran

"Capital punishment is a legal penalty in Iran.[1] Crimes punishable by death include murder; rape; child molestation; sodomy; drug trafficking; armed robbery; kidnapping; terrorism; burglary; pedophilia; homosexuality; incestuous relations; fornication; prohibited sexual relations; sexual misconduct; prostitution[2][3]; plotting to overthrow the Islamic regime; political dissidence; sabotage; arson; rebellion; apostasy; adultery; blasphemy; extortion; counterfeiting; smuggling; speculating; disrupting production; recidivist consumption of alcohol; producing or preparing food, drink, cosmetics or sanitary items that lead to death when consumed or used; producing and publishing pornography; using pornographic materials to solicit sex; recidivist false accusation of capital sexual offenses causing execution of an innocent person; recidivist theft; certain military offenses (e.g. cowardice, assisting the enemy); "enmity against God"; "corruption on earth"; espionage and treason.[4][5] Iran carried out at least 977 executions in 2015, at least 567 executions in 2016,[6] and at least 507 executions in 2017.[7]"

Hmm... many of those cannot be found in the Quran too...

😀 And the question still remains that would it be a decision based on government law or Shariah law? Is the government based entirely on Shariah law or does it have additional laws based on government decision? 😊 Come on lads, is it really that complicated and difficult 😕

[Abu Muhammad]

😀 And the question still remains that would it be a decision based on government law or Shariah law? Is the government based entirely on Shariah law or does it have additional laws based on government decision? 😊 Come on lads, is it really that complicated and difficult 😕

Are these not a shari'ah law to you:

Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) - through these statements found in Al-Kafi -:

1.  "The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

2.  "Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".

[iceman]

Are these not a shari'ah law to you:

Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) - through these statements found in Al-Kafi -:

1.  "The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

2.  "Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".

"Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".

'And this is a statement of him meaning Allah? OK, now since this is a statement of Allah then surely it must be in the Qur'an since its from him (Allah).

"the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

Any kind of indication from the Qur'an. The boys are still struggling . 😊

[Abu Muhammad]

"Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".

'And this is a statement of him meaning Allah? OK, now since this is a statement of Allah then surely it must be in the Qur'an since its from him (Allah).

"the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

Any kind of indication from the Qur'an. The boys are still struggling . 😊

Those in red font, who said that?

[iceman]

Those in red font, who said that?

There you go fellas, I asked a question and instead of an answer I got a question in return. So I don't know what you're accusing me of.

[iceman]

Those in red font, who said that?

Any indication in the Qur'an regarding it? Or are you going to settle with, it's not necessary that everything is in the Qur'an in black and white or how one desires.

[muslim720]

Any indication in the Qur'an regarding it?

So then the only option left is to concede that the Imam (ra) lied upon the Qur'an.

[iceman]

No, who said that was the only option left. How did you come to that conclusion. There is a quote from the Imam, which ever, now did the Imam actually say that, or may be he said something along those lines but not exactly that. The person narrating it explained it in his words, may be two, or three or four chains down. Was it exaggerated or even fabricated or may be the Imam didn't actually say that. He said something else but it was wrongly, falsely or  by mistake attributed to him.

These questions apply to anyone from the past. The whole thing is how accurate and exact is any narration, hadith, statement of any well known and recognised individual from the past needs to be looked at and examined. There has to be check and balance, not on every single teeny weeny thing but at least the main principles, rules and regulations, pillars, practices of faith etc. Or do we take and get others to accept things at face value, the ones we desire and suit us. And automatically reject thone that don't suit us.

[muslim720]

No, who said that was the only option left. How did you come to that conclusion. There is a quote from the Imam, which ever, now did the Imam actually say that, or may be he said something along those lines but not exactly that. The person narrating it explained it in his words, may be two, or three or four chains down. Was it exaggerated or even fabricated or may be the Imam didn't actually say that. He said something else but it was wrongly, falsely or  by mistake attributed to him.

These are authentic narrations I have quoted you.  Then again, I am fine with you weakening them.  Whether you acknowledge that the challenge has been met OR that the Imam (ra) lied upon the Qur'an OR the Imam's (ra) Companions (truthful according to your scholars) attributed a lie to him, you are taking a loss.

If you have other options, we can go over that too but rest assured you are losing something and therefore, the entire discussion.

[iceman]

For me it isn't about winning or loosing or about Shia or Sunni or about settling personal scores or making numbers or scoring points or goals. For you and your bunch it is absolutely clear what it's all about.

Authentic according to whom and why. The challenge hasn't been met. In fact it's no where near being met. It's just being played around by you lads.

[muslim720]

Authentic according to whom and why.

According to your scholars, including Al-Khoei: https://shiascans.com/2017/04/29/%D9%8Bshia-infallibles-refusing-to-pay-zakah-is-disbelief-and-the-consequence-of-it-is-to-get-beheaded-by-the-mahdi/

The challenge hasn't been met. In fact it's no where near being met. It's just being played around by you lads.

Okay, so we can agree that either the Imam (ra) lied OR his companions and your scholars attributed lies to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra).

[iceman]

According to your scholars, including Al-Khoei: https://shiascans.com/2017/04/29/%D9%8Bshia-infallibles-refusing-to-pay-zakah-is-disbelief-and-the-consequence-of-it-is-to-get-beheaded-by-the-mahdi/

Okay, so we can agree that either the Imam (ra) lied OR his companions and your scholars attributed lies to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra).

I've gone through the link you've so kindly provided, can you show me anywhere where it says that if you refuse to pay Zakah to the Islamic government, the Islamic state, the representatives or employees of the government who have been put incharge to collect Zakah money then you are subject to beheading. When Allah has given you a choice who to give Zakah to then who are Rulers or Caliphs and what right to they have to take away the choice from you.

You've mentioned Al Khoei, do you know what Taqleed is all about within and according to Shias. If a Scholar gives his opinion or point of view it is not necessary for you to accept that especially if you're not in1 his Taqleed. Shias who believe in and do Taqleed have a choice to follow a well known and recognised Mujtahid. The other Mujtahid's fatwa or opinion about something isn't Hujjat on them. You need to learn and get to know first before firing off.

[iceman]

According to your scholars, including Al-Khoei: https://shiascans.com/2017/04/29/%D9%8Bshia-infallibles-refusing-to-pay-zakah-is-disbelief-and-the-consequence-of-it-is-to-get-beheaded-by-the-mahdi/

Okay, so we can agree that either the Imam (ra) lied OR his companions and your scholars attributed lies to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra).

At work at the moment. I will comment on every single point and address every single matter in the link you've provided.

[iceman]

Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar fromYunus from Ibn Muskan … on the authority of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad ibn ‘Ali Al-Baqir):

“The Messenger of Allah addressed a group of people in the mosque telling some of them to get up [of the mosque] until he threw out five persons, then he said: “Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.” [

Al Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said:

“He refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].”

[Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Abu ‘Ali Al-Ash’ari, from the one who mentioned it, from Hafs ibn ‘Omar, from Salim, from Abu Basir, (It has been narrated) from Abu ‘Abdullah (Al-Sadiq), who said:

“Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian (i.e. kafir).”

[Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah

Allah three narrations you've mentioned I'm not going to argue with you about their authenticity because I need to move the discussion forward, where does it say that those who refuse to pay Zakah should be beheaded?

Refusing to pay Zakah is one thing but Muslim Caliphs/Rulers employing people and getting them to force people to pay Zakah is another.

And if people refuse to pay Zakah or hand over the Zakah money to these employees then the Muslim Caliph/Ruler has the right to order their execution by beheading is another. This is what's under discussion.

These are what you've outlined in read and black;

"Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.”

"We refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim"
Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian"

Where is the order of EXECUTION by BEHEADING?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Ali ordered the collection of zakat when he was caliph. Nahj ul balagha shows this clearly.