Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?

[iceman]

And here's the summary;

Summary:

People who refuse to pray Salah must be denied from expelled from mosques!
People who refuse to pay the Zakah are disbelievers!
People who refuse to pay the Zakah can choose to die as Jews or Christians (i.e. disbelievers)!

No indication of execution by beheading?

[muslim720]

And here's the summary;

Summary:

People who refuse to pray Salah must be denied from expelled from mosques!
People who refuse to pay the Zakah are disbelievers!
People who refuse to pay the Zakah can choose to die as Jews or Christians (i.e. disbelievers)!

No indication of execution by beheading?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Do you see it now?  If I know anything about you, there will be no acknowledgment of what I've shown you in your next post.  In fact, you might even deny it saying there is no mention of beheading!

[muslim720]

Where is the order of EXECUTION by BEHEADING?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

See it now?

[Asif Hussain]

Looking forward to iceman's next dance move

[iceman]

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Do you see it now?  If I know anything about you, there will be no acknowledgment of what I've shown you in your next post.  In fact, you might even deny it saying there is no mention of beheading!

I'm actually going to do even better than that. This is part and at the very beginning of what you've quoted and I'm going to put it in capitals,

"Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam"

Notice; "ALLAH HAS DECLARED" Not Mahdi or any of our Imams or not even the Prophet s.a.w himself but who? Here it comes again "ALLAH HAS DECLARED" One more time just in case you've missed it "ALLAH HAS DECLARED"

Now for heavens sake can you or anyone, be it Shia or Sunni, show me where Allah has declared this? The Prophet s.a.w didn't declare it, any of the Shia Imams didn't declare it. So who declared it? ALLAH?

And what ever Allah has said you will only find that in the Qur'an. Can you find Allah's saying anywhere else apart from the Qur'an?

You don't need to stretch this and make it complicated and difficult.

[iceman]

Looking forward to iceman's next dance move

😀 You've already got it. 😊

[iceman]

ALLAH HAS DECLARED IT, OK, BUT WHERE? CAN YOU PLEASE SHOW ME?

[muslim720]

I'm actually going to do even better than that.

No, dip$hit, you are still utilizing the same dance moves.

Now for heavens sake can you or anyone, be it Shia or Sunni, show me where Allah has declared this? The Prophet s.a.w didn't declare it, any of the Shia Imams didn't declare it. So who declared it? ALLAH?

Your scholars have narrated from the so-called trustworthy companions of your Imam that your Imam (ra) said that Allah (swt) has declared the blood of two types of people permissible (adulterer and one who refuses to pay Zakat).

Now it is for you to reject your:

1.  Scholars
2.  Trustworthy companions of your Imam
3.  Imam

Again, as I said, whoever you pick, you lose!

[iceman]

No, dip$hit, you are still utilizing the same dance moves.

Your scholars have narrated from the so-called trustworthy companions of your Imam that your Imam (ra) said that Allah (swt) has declared the blood of two types of people permissible (adulterer and one who refuses to pay Zakat).

Now it is for you to reject your:

1.  Scholars
2.  Trustworthy companions of your Imam
3.  Imam

Again, as I said, whoever you pick, you lose!

Once again I'm going to do even better,  in fact a hell of a lot better.

"that Allah (swt) has declared the blood of two types of people permissible (adulterer and one who refuses to pay Zakat)"

"THAT ALLAH HAS DECLARED" Do you accept and believe this? If yes, can you show me where ALLAH HAS DECLARED?

You can't show me, can you. Otherwise you would have done it by now. Can anybody show me where ALLAH HAS DECLARED........?

[muslim720]

If yes, can you show me where ALLAH HAS DECLARED?

You can't show me, can you.

I did not say that!  Your scholars narrated that from trustworthy companions of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) that the Imam (ra) said that adulterers and those who refuse to pay Zakat must be beheaded.  If anyone, you have to take your case to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra), not me.  Ask him to show it to you from the Qur'an.

My point, on the other hand, is this: if you are a Shi'i, on what basis do you reject the words of your Imam (ra) knowing that rejecting the Imam (ra) makes you a disbeliever (according to your own madhhab)? 

So we are back to square one!  Who lied?  Your scholars?  The so-called trustworthy companions of the Imam (ra)?  Or did the Imam (ra) lie upon the Qur'an?

[iceman]

I did not say that!  Your scholars narrated that from trustworthy companions of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) that the Imam (ra) said that adulterers and those who refuse to pay Zakat must be beheaded.  If anyone, you have to take your case to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra), not me.  Ask him to show it to you from the Qur'an.

My point, on the other hand, is this: if you are a Shi'i, on what basis do you reject the words of your Imam (ra) knowing that rejecting the Imam (ra) makes you a disbeliever (according to your own madhhab)? 

So we are back to square one!  Who lied?  Your scholars?  The so-called trustworthy companions of the Imam (ra)?  Or did the Imam (ra) lie upon the Qur'an?

I know you don't have the ability or means to answer. You're going to keep dancing around it. But I do have the ability and means to answer and address everything you throw at me and to move the discussion forward despite your attempts to derail.

The Imam didn't give his own statement based on his own opinion but said that ALLAH HAS DECLARED. Now lets say this is true then where is it in the Qur'an? If I tell you that Allah said this, you would obviously question me on it. Or would you take my word for it?

Now what is attributed towards the Imam is either true or false. If true then there should be a clear verse, otherwise it's false. Nobody lied. It's either a misunderstanding based on the narrators getting the wording wrong since there is such thing as error, mistake, misconception or misinterpreted, or its wrongly attributed.

There are many things in your books which you categories as either strong or weak, acceptable or not. I don't know why the same principles and standards don't apply here.

So once again people if something is from ALLAH that ALLAH DECLARED IT then where is the DECLARATION?

Come on lads!

[muslim720]

The Imam didn't give his own statement based on his own opinion but said that ALLAH HAS DECLARED.

If the Imam (ra) did not give his own statement based on his own opinion then it is incumbent upon you to accept his word as is and acknowledge that indeed "Allah has declared".

Now lets say this is true then where is it in the Qur'an?

Okay, so you are doubting the Imam (ra), hence, say it openly that he lied upon the Qur'an.

By the way, to help you out a bit (only to expose your ignorance), Allah (swt) also declares via qudsi hadith!

Nobody lied.

Your scholars have graded it as authentic.  So the point remains: the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!

It's either a misunderstanding based on the narrators getting the wording wrong since there is such thing as error, mistake, misconception or misinterpreted, or its wrongly attributed.

....said no one ever, except you!  I would take your scholars critique of a hadith over your opinion and hypothetical points.

There are many things in your books which you categories as either strong or weak, acceptable or not. I don't know why the same principles and standards don't apply here.

...because these narrations are classed authentic.

So once again people if something is from ALLAH that ALLAH DECLARED IT then where is the DECLARATION?

You have a case against Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) or his companions or your scholars.  You lose one, at least, but it casts a huge doubt over your madhhab.

[iceman]

If the Imam (ra) did not give his own statement based on his own opinion then it is incumbent upon you to accept his word as is and acknowledge that indeed "Allah has declared".

Okay, so you are doubting the Imam (ra), hence, say it openly that he lied upon the Qur'an.

By the way, to help you out a bit (only to expose your ignorance), Allah (swt) also declares via qudsi hadith!

Your scholars have graded it as authentic.  So the point remains: the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!

....said no one ever, except you!  I would take your scholars critique of a hadith over your opinion and hypothetical points.

...because these narrations are classed authentic.

You have a case against Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) or his companions or your scholars.  You lose one, at least, but it casts a huge doubt over your madhhab.

"If the Imam (ra) did not give his own statement based on his own opinion then it is incumbent upon you to accept his word as is and acknowledge that indeed "Allah has declared"

If that's the case and that's how you want to put it then why can't we accept everything they say? Or everything that's attributed them? I will give you an example of this. There are a lot of things which are attributed to our Imams and you challenge them with the Qur'an. I'll jog your memory in a minute. You can't and shouldn't pick and choose what suits you and when it suits you.

"Okay, so you are doubting the Imam (ra), hence, say it openly that he lied upon the Qur'an"

No the Imam didn't lie. There is a misunderstanding somewhere along the line by the narrators. When you narrate something and it goes through different channels there's bound to be a difference. Also what's been said depends on those who are listening how much and well they've understood.

"By the way, to help you out a bit (only to expose your ignorance), Allah (swt) also declares via qudsi hadith"

This is interesting. So we've seen and learned something new here people that Allah also declares through hadiths and narrations rather than bothering through the Qur'an. So does this mean that it's not necessary that everything is or has to be in the Qur'an.

"Your scholars have graded it as authentic.  So the point remains: the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!"

Once again, no the Imam didn't lie there are plenty of other reasons which I've mentioned. I don't know why you're jumping up and down with this one.

"said no one ever, except you!  I would take your scholars critique of a hadith over your opinion and hypothetical points"

That's fine, you can take what ever and whom ever you want. But you need to convince others who do not take it at face or word value. What are you going to do or how are you going to convince those who want clear evidence in black and white that ALLAH DECLARED IT?

Are you going to say "yes Allah did declare it but didn't bother to mention it in the Qur'an. I've taken it at face value without looking into it and so should you".

"because these narrations are classed authentic"

Ok, so what's the evidence of their authenticity? Or do we start taking things at face value based on what suits us?

[iceman]

"You have a case against Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) or his companions or your scholars.  You lose one, at least, but it casts a huge doubt over your madhhab"

Like I said before its got nothing to do with win or lose on my behalf. My case isn't against anyone. Just questioning those who put forward this quote to prove their argument. And they're still struggling to respond by dancing around it. And now they're trying to divert it.

[muslim720]

There is a misunderstanding somewhere along the line by the narrators. When you narrate something and it goes through different channels there's bound to be a difference. Also what's been said depends on those who are listening how much and well they've understood.

As I said, Al-Khoie gave the same fatwa, based on this hadith.  Hence, it is quite authentic.  It is not my problem that you do not read what I reference. 

Coming back to what I have highlighted from your post, now you are casting doubt on trustworthy companions of the Imam (ra).  You ask me for authenticity of the hadith (because you do not know about the hadith) and yet you are somehow sure that the narrators had a "misunderstanding".  What sort of logic is that?  #ShiaLogic

[wannabe]

Now for heavens sake can you or anyone, be it Shia or Sunni, show me where Allah has declared this? The Prophet s.a.w didn't declare it, any of the Shia Imams didn't declare it. So who declared it? ALLAH?

salam bro
not answering any of ur questions 
i believe, sunni-shia polemics are quite well-documented. whatever you say, won't change the belief of sunni bros.
likewise, whatever argument put forward by sunni bros, won't change your belief.
on a personal level, i believe in...
[Shakir 18:29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve;....

the islamic world is a safer place if everyone follows...
[Shakir 5:48] ....therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

at the end of the day, every muslim should ponder about verses Quran 2:166-167.
Only mukmin are excluded from this group since they love Allah more as described in Quran 2:165.

[iceman]

As I said, Al-Khoie gave the same fatwa, based on this hadith.  Hence, it is quite authentic.  It is not my problem that you do not read what I reference. 

Coming back to what I have highlighted from your post, now you are casting doubt on trustworthy companions of the Imam (ra).  You ask me for authenticity of the hadith (because you do not know about the hadith) and yet you are somehow sure that the narrators had a "misunderstanding".  What sort of logic is that?  #ShiaLogic

I'm not asking you about the authenticity of this, that or the other. All I'm asking you is you've put forward aa reference the following quote,

[iceman]

salam bro
not answering any of ur questions 
i believe, sunni-shia polemics are quite well-documented. whatever you say, won't change the belief of sunni bros.
likewise, whatever argument put forward by sunni bros, won't change your belief.
on a personal level, i believe in...
[Shakir 18:29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve;....

the islamic world is a safer place if everyone follows...
[Shakir 5:48] ....therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

at the end of the day, every muslim should ponder about verses Quran 2:166-167.
Only mukmin are excluded from this group since they love Allah more as described in Quran 2:165.

'm not asking you about the authenticity of this, that or the other. All I'm asking you is you've put forward as reference the following quote,

"Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam"

It doesn't matter who said it, who narrated it, how many people are in that chain of narration and who endorsed it, all I'm saying and asking is 'Allah declared this' where is the declaration?

Or do we accept that, never mind about important issues and matters and bits and pieces connected and related to them, even if something is said that it's from Allah as in this case, it doesn't have to be in the Qur'an, other sources apart from the Qur'an are enough to acknowledge and accept.

Do you agree to the above?

[muslim720]

"Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam"

It doesn't matter who said it, who narrated it, how many people are in that chain of narration and who endorsed it, all I'm saying and asking is 'Allah declared this' where is the declaration?

Since there is nothing verbatim in the Qur'an which says what the Imam (ra) said - that "Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam" - therefore, the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!

Why are you hesitating to say that the Imam (ra) lied?  If that does not sit well with you, I suggest you believe in the words of your own hujjah who (according to you) is "infallible" and "Divinely Appointed" and "Divinely Inspired" in everything he says.

[iceman]

Since there is nothing verbatim in the Qur'an which says what the Imam (ra) said - that "Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam" - therefore, the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!

Why are you hesitating to say that the Imam (ra) lied?  If that does not sit well with you, I suggest you believe in the words of your own hujjah who (according to you) is "infallible" and "Divinely Appointed" and "Divinely Inspired" in everything he says.

You didn't address my point, or you don't want to address it? Here it is again in case you've missed it;

Do we accept that, never mind about important issues and matters and bits and pieces connected and related to them, even if something is said that it's from Allah as in this case, it doesn't have to be in the Qur'an, other sources apart from the Qur'an are enough to acknowledge and accept.

Do you agree to the above?

Would you like to answer and address the above?