Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?

[Abu Muhammad]

You didn't address my point, or you don't want to address it? Here it is again in case you've missed it;

Do we accept that, never mind about important issues and matters and bits and pieces connected and related to them, even if something is said that it's from Allah as in this case, it doesn't have to be in the Qur'an, other sources apart from the Qur'an are enough to acknowledge and accept.

Do you agree to the above?

Would you like to answer and address the above?

1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in  Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not!)

Hope that helps!

[muslim720]

Do we accept that, never mind about important issues and matters and bits and pieces connected and related to them, even if something is said that it's from Allah as in this case, it doesn't have to be in the Qur'an, other sources apart from the Qur'an are enough to acknowledge and accept.

Do you agree to the above?

I know what you are trying to do here and I don't like it.  You are trying to open another front, an escape route, as is typical when Shias are cornered in a discussion.  It is not about what I agree to as that is another discussion altogether.  It is about you rejecting the words of your "infallible", "Divinely Inspired" Imam (ra).

You can cast doubt upon the Imam (ra), his trustworthy companions (according to your madhhab) or your scholars!  I am still waiting for you to pick one.

[iceman]

I know what you are trying to do here and I don't like it.  You are trying to open another front, an escape route, as is typical when Shias are cornered in a discussion.  It is not about what I agree to as that is another discussion altogether.  It is about you rejecting the words of your "infallible", "Divinely Inspired" Imam (ra).

You can cast doubt upon the Imam (ra), his trustworthy companions (according to your madhhab) or your scholars!  I am still waiting for you to pick one.

All I'm trying to do is get an answer out of you and to reason with you. And you keep twisting and turning things around. If Allah has said something or declared something then where is it in the Qur'an  or  may be it's not necessary that it has to be in the Qur'an. Can you comment on this and answer. Or just stay quiet. Hadiths and narrations how do you consider and accept them? Do you use Qur'an for check and balance or do you just go as you please?

[muslim720]

If Allah has said something or declared something then where is it in the Qur'an  or  may be it's not necessary that it has to be in the Qur'an.

As a Shi'i, it is hujjah upon you to accept the words of your Imams (ra).  Where it is in the Qur'an is your way to wiggle your way out of the corner.

Hadiths and narrations how do you consider and accept them?

It is not about my consideration and acceptance.  It is for you to accept them because your scholars have narrated and authenticated the narrations I've quoted. 

Again, one had to lie: the Imam (ra), his companions or the scholars narrating!

[iceman]

As a Shi'i, it is hujjah upon you to accept the words of your Imams (ra).  Where it is in the Qur'an is your way to wiggle your way out of the corner.

It is not about my consideration and acceptance.  It is for you to accept them because your scholars have narrated and authenticated the narrations I've quoted. 

Again, one had to lie: the Imam (ra), his companions or the scholars narrating!

So then this is proven that even if Allah has said something then it's not necessary that it has to be from the Qur'an. Other sources are just as reliable. As fast as I'm concerned when it comes to hadiths and narrations then Qur'an is the scale. If you can find it in the Qur'an, not necessarily in black and white and as you want, even an indication or hint is enough. Otherwise it is wrongly or falsely narrated or with some misunderstanding somewhere along the line. Once again 'Allah has declared' ok, where?  The declaration has to be somewhere. You can twist and turn this around at me as much as you like. But you know the score by now

[iceman]

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad). As for Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib, he is the uncle of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) and Zakat is compulsory on him and he should pay it double."

So what happened to execution here?

[Abu Muhammad]

So then this is proven that even if Allah has said something then it's not necessary that it has to be from the Qur'an. Other sources are just as reliable. As fast as I'm concerned when it comes to hadiths and narrations then Qur'an is the scale. If you can find it in the Qur'an, not necessarily in black and white and as you want, even an indication or hint is enough. Otherwise it is wrongly or falsely narrated or with some misunderstanding somewhere along the line. Once again 'Allah has declared' ok, where?  The declaration has to be somewhere. You can twist and turn this around at me as much as you like. But you know the score by now

@iceman, in case you missed this one out:

1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

If you understand what I mean!

[iceman]

@iceman, in case you missed this one out:

1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

If you understand what I mean!

Oh I absolutely and completely understand what you mean.

1, Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe that there is someone third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger s.a.w mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in it - not mentioned in Quran

[Abu Muhammad]

Oh I absolutely and completely understand what you mean.

1, Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe that there is someone third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger s.a.w mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in it - not mentioned in Quran

Hmm... let us see:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ    ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  obey Allah and  obey  the  Messenger  and  those  in  authority among  you.  And  if  you  disagree  over  anything,  refer  it  to Allah and  the  Messenger,  if you  should  believe  in Allah and  the  Last  Day.  That  is  the  best  [way]  and  best  in  result.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 59


Hmm... those in red above doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all. FYI, these in blue below are how "believe in something" should sound like:

لَيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ
  وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ

(Sahih International)
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 177


آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ   لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

(Sahih International)
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 285


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  believe  in Allah and  His  Messenger  and  the  Book  that  He sent  down  upon  His  Messenger  and  the  Scripture  which  He  sent  down  before. And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray.
-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 136

Try a bit more harder, please!

[iceman]

Hmm... let us see:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ    ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  obey Allah and  obey  the  Messenger  and  those  in  authority among  you.  And  if  you  disagree  over  anything,  refer  it  to Allah and  the  Messenger,  if you  should  believe  in Allah and  the  Last  Day.  That  is  the  best  [way]  and  best  in  result.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 59


Hmm... those in red above doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all. FYI, these in blue below are how "believe in something" should sound like:

لَيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ
  وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ

(Sahih International)
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 177


آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ   لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

(Sahih International)
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 285


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  believe  in Allah and  His  Messenger  and  the  Book  that  He sent  down  upon  His  Messenger  and  the  Scripture  which  He  sent  down  before. And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray.
-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 136

Try a bit more harder, please!

No need to try harder, it's not issue of PHD.

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and  obey the Messenger and ALL SO OBEY  those in  authority among  you"

What's difficult to understand here apart from someone being third in line in authority. And Muhammad s.a.w introduced them. Why do I need to try harder? You're the one who needs to save Saqifa and to protect those who kicked it off.

[Abu Muhammad]

No need to try harder, it's not issue of PHD.

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and  obey the Messenger and ALL SO OBEY  those in  authority among  you"

What's difficult to understand here apart from someone being third in line in authority. And Muhammad s.a.w introduced them. Why do I need to try harder? You're the one who needs to save Saqifa and to protect those who kicked it off.

Hmm... let us see once again:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ  ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  obey Allah and  obey  the  Messenger  and  those  in  authority among  you .  And  if  you  disagree  over  anything,  refer  it  to Allah and  the  Messenger,  if you  should  believe  in Allah and  the  Last  Day.  That  is  the  best  [way]  and  best  in  result.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 59

Hmm... those in red above STILL doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all.

Obligation to "believe in something" should sound like those in blue:


لَيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ
وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ

(Sahih International)
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets.
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 177

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ   لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

(Sahih International)
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers,[saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 285


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  believe  in Allah and  His  Messenger  and  the  Book  that  He sent  down  upon  His  Messenger  and  the  Scripture  which  He  sent  down  before. And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray.
-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 136

A bit more harder, please, and without tahreef too!

[iceman]

Hmm... let us see once again:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ  ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  obey Allah and  obey  the  Messenger  and  those  in  authority among  you .  And  if  you  disagree  over  anything,  refer  it  to Allah and  the  Messenger,  if you  should  believe  in Allah and  the  Last  Day.  That  is  the  best  [way]  and  best  in  result.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 59

Hmm... those in red above STILL doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all.

Obligation to "believe in something" should sound like those in blue:


لَيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ
وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ

(Sahih International)
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets.
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 177

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ   لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

(Sahih International)
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers,[saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 285


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  believe  in Allah and  His  Messenger  and  the  Book  that  He sent  down  upon  His  Messenger  and  the  Scripture  which  He  sent  down  before. And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray.
-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 136

A bit more harder, please, and without tahreef too!

"Hmm... those in red above STILL doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all"

The obligation to believe that there is someone put third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger s.a.w. See the sequence. 😊

Those three who rushed to Saqifa only went there to prevent something terrible from happening. 😊

You believe in Allah by accepting what ever he says, you believe in the Angels regardless of the numbers, you believe in judgement day and what ever has been said about it, but when it comes to the Messenger s.a.w the response was 'sorry the book of Allah is enough for us'  we're not interested in what you have to right down for us. This is what the Prophet s.a.w had to deal with and that's what we're putting up with.

[iceman]

Yes Allah did say this;

"And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray:

But have you forgotten what the Prophet s.a.w said?

آتُوْنِیْ بِدَوَاتٍ وَ قِرْطَاسٍ اِکْتُبُ لَکُمْ کِتَابًا لَنْ تَضِلُّوْا بَعْدَہ اَبَدًا

"Fetch me a pen and a paper so that I write a will for you so that you are not deviated after me.”

And what was the response?

Umar said:

اِنَّ النَّبِیَّ غَلَبَہ الْوَجْعُ وَ عِنْدَکُمْ کِتَابُ اللهِ، حَسْبُنَا کِتَابُ اللهِ۔

"Surely the Prophet is overcome by illness (suggesting that his words should not be taken seriously).The Book of Allah is with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us!!!”

See what the Prophet s.a.w had to put up with. And do you see what we're putting up with.

So who was responsible for the deviation when it comes to the Ummah?

You wanted me to try harder, well there you have it. Is that good enough or you still not satisfied?

[Abu Muhammad]

"Hmm... those in red above STILL doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all"

The obligation to believe that there is someone put third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger s.a.w. See the sequence. 😊

Those three who rushed to Saqifa only went there to prevent something terrible from happening. 😊

You believe in Allah by accepting what ever he says, you believe in the Angels regardless of the numbers, you believe in judgement day and what ever has been said about it, but when it comes to the Messenger s.a.w the response was 'sorry the book of Allah is enough for us'  we're not interested in what you have to right down for us. This is what the Prophet s.a.w had to deal with and that's what we're putting up with.

Hmm... still couldn't find "... Aamana bil imamati ahlil bayt"? Thank you...

Thus, the following is confirmed:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

[muslim720]

As fast as I'm concerned when it comes to hadiths and narrations then Qur'an is the scale. If you can find it in the Qur'an, not necessarily in black and white and as you want, even an indication or hint is enough.

Are you denying that there is more than just a hint (when it comes to Zakat) in the Qur'an?  And what would you call someone who, for example, deems five daily prayers as no longer applicable?  Or fasting?  Or Hajj?

Once again 'Allah has declared' ok, where?  The declaration has to be somewhere.

Where?  Go ask your 12th Imam who can then vouch for your 6th Imam (ra)!  After all, that is the duty of the 12th one, to guide you.

You have a problem with the words of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) as narrated by his "companions" in books compiled by your scholars.  My task was to show you proof from your hujjah; your obligation now is to go grab the collars of your scholars or 12th Imam and demand where "Allah has declared" (till the end) in the Qur'an.

[iceman]

Hmm... still couldn't find "... Aamana bil imamati ahlil bayt"? Thank you...

Thus, the following is confirmed:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

"Hmm... still couldn't find "... Aamana bil imamati ahlil bayt"? Thank you..."

If you ask Allah and his Messenger s.a.w with an open mind you'll get the answer. If you're going to continue with trying your best to undermine the other then you're not looking for an answer but in fact trying your best to get the other to agree with you.

Allah has put someone third in line in authority and the Messenger s.a.w has declared them. I know you so desperately want to save Saqifah but it's not happening. The ones before you disregarded what the Messenger s.a.w had to say, write and offer so what are you compared to them.

[iceman]

Are you denying that there is more than just a hint (when it comes to Zakat) in the Qur'an?  And what would you call someone who, for example, deems five daily prayers as no longer applicable?  Or fasting?  Or Hajj?

Where?  Go ask your 12th Imam who can then vouch for your 6th Imam (ra)!  After all, that is the duty of the 12th one, to guide you.

You have a problem with the words of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) as narrated by his "companions" in books compiled by your scholars.  My task was to show you proof from your hujjah; your obligation now is to go grab the collars of your scholars or 12th Imam and demand where "Allah has declared" (till the end) in the Qur'an.

"Are you denying that there is more than just a hint (when it comes to Zakat) in the Qur'an?"

No, I've been asking you boys the following constantly and haven't got a reply till now.

When Allah has given you a choice who to give Zakah to then who is the Caliph/ruler to appoint people as Zakah collectors and get them to force people to hand over Zakah money or to force people into paying Zakah. And if they refuse then they are to be executed. Is this based on Shariah law or is it a governmental decision? That's all I've asked till now.

[iceman]

Are you denying that there is more than just a hint (when it comes to Zakat) in the Qur'an?  And what would you call someone who, for example, deems five daily prayers as no longer applicable?  Or fasting?  Or Hajj?

Where?  Go ask your 12th Imam who can then vouch for your 6th Imam (ra)!  After all, that is the duty of the 12th one, to guide you.

You have a problem with the words of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) as narrated by his "companions" in books compiled by your scholars.  My task was to show you proof from your hujjah; your obligation now is to go grab the collars of your scholars or 12th Imam and demand where "Allah has declared" (till the end) in the Qur'an.

"And what would you call someone who, for example, deems five daily prayers as no longer applicable?  Or fasting?  Or Hajj?"

Come on,  for heavens sake lets use our senses (aql). Once you've entered Islam by becoming a Muslim either you will remain by staying on as a Muslim or you'll decide Islam is not for you and you'll decide to leave. Why on earth would you remain a Muslim and deny, for example prayers or fasting, as being part of Shariah and Islam which are crystal clear. Why one earth would you do that? Does this sound even logica?

[muslim720]

No, I've been asking you boys the following constantly and haven't got a reply till now.

Precisely the problem we are having!  You have asked too many stupid questions instead of reflecting on Qur'an (where Zakat is clearly mentioned as an obligation) and Shi'i hadiths (which state that failure to pay Zakat renders one outside the fold of Islam who can be beheaded).

When Allah has given you a choice who to give Zakah to then who is the Caliph/ruler to appoint people as Zakah collectors and get them to force people to hand over Zakah money or to force people into paying Zakah.

What choice are you talking about?  There are categories of people who can benefit from Zakat.  Handing over your Zakat to a ruler or ruler-appointed collector is not paying them or filling their pockets; they, in turn, distribute all the collected Zakat among the categories mentioned in the Qur'an.  How long will you play dumb for?  I mean, you were the one to quote online Zakat-collecting websites to make your point so you should be the last one to question the handing over of Zakat to an entity whose sole purpose is to collect Zakat from people and then distribute it among the needy.

And if they refuse then they are to be executed. Is this based on Shariah law or is it a governmental decision?

According to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra), who is hujjah upon you, this is based on Shariah, in fact as per the Will of Allah (swt), recorded in a book from which you derive your aqeedah and fiqh.

Come on,  for heavens sake lets use our senses (aql). Once you've entered Islam by becoming a Muslim either you will remain by staying on as a Muslim or you'll decide Islam is not for you and you'll decide to leave. Why on earth would you remain a Muslim and deny, for example prayers or fasting, as being part of Shariah and Islam which are crystal clear. Why one earth would you do that? Does this sound even logica?

While I am almost certain you and aql are polar opposites (if you had aql you would not have posted such a response as I will get to in a minute), you have caused significant damage to your own argument by issuing this statement.

You insinuated that it is illogical for one to remain a Muslim while denying prayers, fasting, Zakat, etc.  That is exactly what Malik did; claimed to be a Muslim while freeing himself and his entire tribe from the obligation of paying Zakat.  Therefore, defending such a person (as you are trying to do) is beyond illogical.  That is what we have been saying all along but it does not penetrate your thick skull.

[Abu Muhammad]

"Hmm... still couldn't find "... Aamana bil imamati ahlil bayt"? Thank you..."

If you ask Allah and his Messenger s.a.w with an open mind you'll get the answer. If you're going to continue with trying your best to undermine the other then you're not looking for an answer but in fact trying your best to get the other to agree with you.

Allah has put someone third in line in authority and the Messenger s.a.w has declared them. I know you so desperately want to save Saqifah but it's not happening. The ones before you disregarded what the Messenger s.a.w had to say, write and offer so what are you compared to them.

For the 3rd attempt, still couldn't find any explicit verse for the most important pillar of Twelver Shi'ism after shahadah. Don't lose heart. You are not alone. Every Twelvers including your scholars are the same.

Thus, re-affirmed yet again the following:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)